Horus - Possessed or Not?

[Stravo]

Once again, primary source is the Collected Art of the Horus Heresy hardcover coffee table book supplemented by the New Horus Heresy Novel series of which I am currently reading "Flight of the Eisenstein".

Some background - Horus seems to be self deluded almost from the start. He believes that the Warp powers are these inncocent (relatively speaking) powers that are minding their own business and suddenly they're pissed off because the Emperor is fucking around in their playground and causing a ruckus with his powers and experiments. Essentially they've come to Horus saying "Look, we're here minding our own business when your Emperor comes around and starts messing around with us and causing us pain and anguish. We don't really want to get involved but this has got to stop and you're the man to do it. You have vision, strength and leadership and frankly you should be the Emperor. He's just interested in usurping our power and becoming a god and leaving you Space Marines to fight and die for him out here."

Horus wounded, delirious and under the influence of Chaos spawned magic has visions that lead him to conclude he must rebel against his father. It all seems rational and makes sense when you take into account Horus' fatal flaw - his pride.

That sounds all fine and dandy but we come upon an interesting question that is not directly addressed by the novels yet but the Art Book heavily implies that Horus seems to be almost possessed or controlled by the Chaos powers after he makes his decision.

Why does possession need to be part of the equation IMO? Because if you believe you're fighting on the right side then having Chaos in your corner should make you very uncomfortable. Unless Horus was at least partially dominated by the dark powers he could not have rationally supported Chaos when several events occur during the heresy.

For example Sanguinus is sent on a suicide mission by Horus into a planetary system that is possessed by Chaos. The Art Book talks about the entire planet being nothing more than a charnal house with demons running loose all over the planet. If you really think about it, Horus' stated goal is to save humanity from the Emperor and to ascend the throne of Terra himself and rule over humanity as a better Emperor. How can you even imagine that it would be better for humanity to make charnel houses out of your worlds?

The Space Marines under Horus begin to have issues like mutation and posession under the powers of Chaos. The Death Guard become the Plague Marines. Marines utterly corrupted by disease and decay. That does not look pretty nor must it feel pretty, yet Horus doesn't seem to think "Hey now. Do I want my guys all looking and smelling like that? Who in the hell am I dealing with?"

Artistic depictions of Horus in the Heresy Art Book universally portray him as giant and twisted, his face contorted with what looks like wires or cables running from his head and a awful crimson glow emanating from within himself. In the novels before the Heresy, he is described as beautiful and striking. I know if I was a guy looking to ascend to the throne and the allies I had were starting to make me look like some bloated corpse with red light emanating from my face I might have second thoughts.

When Horus is confronted with the knowledge that Fulgrim has been completely possessed by a Daemon Prince he is horrified at the revelation and decides that after the Fall of Terra he planned to rescue Fulgrim from his fate. This indicates that Horus was either unaware or simply did not know to what his extent the other Primarchs were consorting with demons. He is aware at this point before the siege that the chaos powers are betraying him and his men by possessing them.

Finally the most damning indication that Horus was possessed or at least partially controlled by demonic influences is his death. When the Emperor kills Horus, it says at the last moment when Chaos withdrew its powers from him his face changed and he became the man he was and he said he lamented at having been duped and that he could not ask for forgiveness for what he had done but only begged for death. These are the words of a man who has not been himself throughout the struggle and the fact that the moment Chaos withdraws its powers he completely changes would strongly indicate some form of possession or control.

Why does it matter? Well for me, at least, I thought the greatest tragedy of the Heresy and any story about the Fall of a Great Hero is that he freely chooses his fate and willingly walks that path. Possession takes away from the tragedy and makes the hero more of a puppet. Remember the anger some of us felt when it was implied before the release of ROTS that Anakin was possessed by the dark side as indicated by his glowing yellow eyes during some scenes of the movie previews. We all wanted Anakin to be a willing dark sioder, someone who freely chose to walk that path. Dark side possession made the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker seem more like the results of a failed Saving Throw than freely embracing evil. It's the greatest and oldest of all falls - the ends justifying the means yet possession makes that all moot.

So what are your thoughts? Horus - possessed or just plain evil?

[Shroom Man 777]

Hrm, the idea of Horus being like Big Boss in Metal Gear...maybe he got sick of the Emperor using the marines as disposable and expandable toys?

It'd be an even greater tragedy if Horus initially had idealistic motives for his insurrection and made naive pacts with Chaos, misbelieving Khorne to stand for honor and bravery, Slaanesh for love, Tzeench for wisdom and Nurgle for steadfastness. Then he'd be betrayed by them and they'd possess him against his will, to his horror and some such. He gets to see all the horrors and atrocities committed by Chaos, how they wretchedly desecrate his body and the body of his brother marines, see it all happen yet being completely helpless. And when they finally leave his body, in that final moment, he repents and the Emperor slays him.

[andrewgpaul]

I've always tended towards the possession angle, myself. The thing I'm not so keen on is the 'it wasn't his fault' angle from the new novels; the possession on Davin was engineered by the Word Bearers. The original fluff, from the Space Marine 1st edition rulebook indicated that he took part in the warrior lodge initiation ceremony voluntary, as, after all "how dangerous can a hut full of savages be?"

(the same block of fluff text also indicated that the Inquisition was already active by this point, and that psychic ability was a known phenomenon; Horus' adjutant says he feels uneasy about the ritual, and HOrus jokes that he should report to the Inquisition for psychic evaluation. Pity that's all been retconned now )

[Rye]

I think it's a mixture of the two, going by the HH novels. By all accounts he seemed like an alright guy before that bit with the chaos healing on that planet. His emotional state after that became gradually less moral and that influenced his choices accordingly.

[Bedlam]

I assume a sort of slow degredation / possesion. Starting with when he was healed and culminating with full possesion when hes fighting the emperor.

Judging from the novels so far Horus still seems to be working more or less on his own. I dont think he fully knows whats happening to the marines under him. The Deathguard arn't messed up yet although the Emperors children and defently twisted come the Istvan IV battle but I dont think Horus was present until the fight ended so they might have locked away the more twisted members of the legion by the time he got there.

As for sending Sangeinus to a demon world its possible the powers of Chaos didn't tell Horus exactly what the place was like. They might have said that it was a good ambush site and they had lots of forces there but not mention exactly how screwed up it was.

[NecronLord]

Yes. He demonstrates demonic powers in the fight against the Emperor. 'nough said.

That doesn't mean he didn't fall to chaos in the way depicted by the novels, though. Chaos can't just flick a switch and get under someone's skin, a vector for chaotic influence is always required, be it latent psykerness, freaky ritual, or shiny sword.

[NecronLord]

(the same block of fluff text also indicated that the Inquisition was already active by this point,

Or Horus unknowingly joked about the existance of an Inquisition, not knowing it would come to be.

and that psychic ability was a known phenomenon;

Which indeed it was. Navigators, astropaths, librarians... all existed.

[Keevan_Colton]

I'd suggest there is something of a middle ground possible, he opened up to the powers of chaos and they clouded his perceptions once he embraced them...think of it as more analogous to drug addiction or similar...they grant him power, and drunk with it he cant see what he is losing by taking it until it is too late...

[NecronLord]

Mmm. The older fluff has him being 'influenced' by chaos, more than anything. He's certainly not independant, but he's not just taken over outright like Fulgrim was.

[Shadowtraveler]

I think he's one of those "fell to the dark side for kinda-sorta noble reasons but got corrupted and deluded faster than you can say Jacen Solo" types.

[andrewgpaul]

(the same block of fluff text also indicated that the Inquisition was already active by this point,

Or Horus unknowingly joked about the existance of an Inquisition, not knowing it would come to be.

See for yourself:

The adjutant came smartly to attention before the vast wooden desk.

"The local representatives are outside, my lord Warmaster" The Warmaster nodded once, without looking up from the stack of reports.

"Thank you, Bejaind. Make them comfortable and tell them I shall join
them directly." Bejaind cleared his throat nervously.
"Permission to speak freely... my lord?" This time, the Warmaster
looked up. The adjutant tried to hold his ice-blue gaze, and failed.

"I know, Bejaind." said the Warmaster "You're not happy about this
warrior lodge initiation."

"So soon after your illness, my lord..."

"From which I am fully recovered. I had the Apothacaria of five Space Marine chapters fighting for the honor of healing me. I've been back to full duties for a week now, with no ill-effects. Your concern is touching, but unnecessary." Bejaind shuffled uncomfortably.

"But, my lord, we don't know what's involved..."
"I have a reasonable idea. A little pain, to be endured without crying out; duels with a range of primitive weapons; trials of strength and speed; a few primitive rituals -little different from mystic warrior lodges in any other feral-world culture. You know Imperial policy; establish ties which can be exploited in later recruitment."

He paused.

“This really is bothering you, isn't it?"

The adjutant tried to meet his gaze, and failed again.

“Listen, Bejaind. You are an outstanding staff officer; and I value your loyalty and concern. But why does one warrior-lodge initiation on one feral world disturb you so? I've gone through more than twenty of these
rituals in the past. I've been a Space Marine and a commander of Marines for more than a century. You need have no fears for me."

"My lord, I.."

The Warmaster rose abruptly.
"Enough." His voice was softer; more dangerous. "I am Horus, General and Warmaster. The first soldier of the Imperium, subordinate only to the Emperor himself. Shall it be said that Horus ran away from a hutful of savages?"

Bejaind struggled for words.

"My lord... I have had - dreams..."His distress was genuine. Horus laid
a hand on his shoulder

"Control yourself", he said gently. "You are excused for the rest of the day. Go to the Apothacarion for a psychological update. And then, perhaps, to the Chapel. A few hours' meditation will do you good. Unless you prefer to report these dreams and submit yourself to the Inquisition for psychic potential testing?"

Bejaind swallowed hard. "No, my lord."

"Well, then." Horus patted his shoulder gently.

"Go now, and we'll say no more. Meanwhile, I must meet the Elders of the Knife of Stone."

And in the warp, something smiled.

[NecronLord]

See for yourself:

So they just conquered a planet with an Inquisition on it and Horus made a tasteless joke about it. It's nothing, really.

Never mind the possibility of the Sisters of Silence (who basically do the same job) having an 'Inquisition' of some sort that's rumoured to exist. The word doesn't necesserily apply to the same organisation as the 'Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition.'

[Lost Soal]

Theres also the small problem that five Space Marine Chapters weren't even in the area, much less fighting to treat him and this adjutant doesn't exist in the new timeline. This story therefore is somewhat out the window now.

[Joe Richter]

And the mention of a chapel, where the books make a strong point of the pre-heresy Imperium being very anti-religion.

[Lost Soal]

And the mention of a chapel, where the books make a strong point of the pre-heresy Imperium being very anti-religion.

They may well have chapels but use them for something other than prey, after all they had Chaplains at this time.

[LadyTevar]

I wish they had kept that piece of Fluff, actually. It's classic "Hero Ignoring Good Advice/Warning" that you find in every good mythos.

[Xenophobe3691]

I wish they had kept that piece of Fluff, actually. It's classic "Hero Ignoring Good Advice/Warning" that you find in every good mythos.

Actually, in False Gods, Spoiler

He sees Magnus in his vision, and completely ignores him. Like a dumbass.

[andrewgpaul]

I'm kind of disappointed that all that old fluff has been somewhat superseded now. Not because it was necessarily better, but simply because there was no need for it to be gotten rid of. However, they did keep the feel of the era; Everything's much less ritualised than the 'present' era. Most of the rest of the fluff pieces in that rulebook are various Space Marines' inability to understand why their battle-brothers have turned against them.

[Big Orange]

The Emperor of Man and his Primarks were not entirely good to begin with, what with their highly aggressive military conquests, strident human supremacy, feeding millions of humans into a meatgrinder to build a empire and amassing power - didn't one of the Emperors' loyal Primark lieutenants exterminate a entire civilized alien race out of a pique of jealousy, long before turning to Chaos?

So something very horrible must've already lurked within Horus as well and sent down the slippery slope into Chaos, as with Anakin...

[Teleros]

That would be Fulgrim I believe, and weren't they Chaos-worshippers anyway?

[NecronLord]

That would be Fulgrim I believe, and weren't they Chaos-worshippers anyway?

There's been mention of similar attacks against various groups in all the books, except the most recent one, where the only people they actually kill are chaos worshippers.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm inclined to believe at some point he was possessed, given the fluff in the "Horus heresy" rulebook thingy. I distinctly remember at a point when the Emperor was just wounded by Horus (he'd been holding bakc) and he managed to rally his uber-psychic power and actually eject the Chaos powers (all four) bolstering Horus - Horus actually seemed to come back to himself (until the Emperor steeled himself and obliterated him, at least.) To me, that speaks of posession.

Now as NL said, its not an instantaneous thing, so there's plenty of opprtountiy for other motivations/ideas before any actual possession occurs (that doesnt mean chaos isn't influecing him in other ways short of possession though.)

As for the Emperor being good/bad.. I thinkh e was essentially good, but he was also pragmatic and he also faced situations he could not totally control. Despite all his power, the masses of humanity are simply too much for him to directly manipualte... so he has to resort to other means. Unfortunately this also means all too often he has to be brutal and oppressive, far more than even he may wish to be, simply to preserve human survival. There's also the fact that while worshipped as a god, he is not truly omnipotent or omnsicent. He's human (even if a very powerful one. ) and as a huuman he made a number of grave mistakes which lead to the HEresy and onwards.

The Primarchs are another story, however. I don't think they were all intrinsicablly bad, but some sources (like Angels of DarknesS) seem to imply that their advnetures after they were scattered by chaos had.. "altered" them somehow. Some were altered worse than others (IE the traitor primarchs) but even others (I'm thinking El'Jonson and the Dark angels, but Corax might be another good example) weren't perfect either. The Primarchs were arrogant, powerful, and often quarrelsome, but then again I dont know if they qualify as truly human either - they were, IIRC, made that way, and their early exposure to their enviroments probably altered them irrevocoably.

[Adrian Laguna]

The Primarchs are another story, however. I don't think they were all intrinsicablly bad, but some sources (like Angels of DarknesS) seem to imply that their advnetures after they were scattered by chaos had.. "altered" them somehow. Some were altered worse than others (IE the traitor primarchs) but even others (I'm thinking El'Jonson and the Dark angels, but Corax might be another good example) weren't perfect either. The Primarchs were arrogant, powerful, and often quarrelsome, but then again I dont know if they qualify as truly human either - they were, IIRC, made that way, and their early exposure to their enviroments probably altered them irrevocoably.

Environment alters everyone. The Emperor made the Primarchs, but he did not raise them. A few of them weren't raised all that well. Mortarion, for example, has huge daddy issues. However part of the betrayals were the Emperor's fault. In particular, the Emperor was a huge dick to both Magnus and Angron.

[loomer]

Yeah. Magnus was a very tragic figure, in the end. Good until papa beat him and his legion shitless and essentially crushed their art.

[Skelron]

Yeah. Magnus was a very tragic figure, in the end. Good until papa beat him and his legion shitless and essentially crushed their art.

Magnus was told 'don't mess with sorcery, if you do I will have to hurt you.' then went and messed with sorcery anyway, seriously messing up Earth, and placing all the emperor's plans in peril, even without the heresy.

In short he played with fire and got burnt.

As for Horus, aye I go with the willing slide into Chaos, then losing himself in it. Which is fairly typical of how Chaos works, you don't suddenly convert and become a raging monster, you dip your toes in, try out the lesser aspects of it, and then go in deeper, and deeper until, it's really too late to get out of the water and your happily burning the Galaxy.