TCS Confederation vs TCS Midway

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-29 04:59pm

A Confederation class with upgrader armor and shields to put it around the same level as the Hades class cruiser. Its also got prophecy era fighters. The Midway is as we see it at the end of Prophecy. Neither ships main gun works.

TC · Post by TC » 2003-01-29 05:22pm

Do either get a battle group?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-29 06:43pm

TC wrote:Do either get a battle group?

Nope, just the carriers themselves.

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2003-01-29 07:52pm

Do either get fighters?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-29 08:01pm

Bob McDob wrote:Do either get fighters?

Nah, I want to see who would win in a ramming contest.

Bob, of course they get fighters.

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2003-01-30 12:07am

Midway wins because (pick one)

A) has more fighters
B) has better shields
C) has better weapons

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-30 12:54am

Bob McDob wrote:Midway wins because (pick one)

A) has more fighters
B) has better shields
C) has better weapons

I think the Confederation could win. It can use its entire fighter loadout to destroy the Midways bombers and then its flight group stays near the Confederation and they move in on the Midway to fire the AMGs.

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2003-01-30 12:58am

The Midway has superior armament to the Confederation <G>

That, and the Devastator's plasma guns are twice the firepower of an AMG.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-30 05:18am

The Midway landing strip can be taken out more easily than the Midway's launch tube system. The Confederation-class Dreadnought has heavier guns.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-30 09:48am

Bob McDob wrote:The Midway has superior armament to the Confederation <G>

That, and the Devastator's plasma guns are twice the firepower of an AMG.

The Midway has only two CSMs. The Confederation has 8 Anti-Mater Guns.

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-01-30 11:19am

Considering that both ships will want to stay out the range of each other, it comes down to the skill of the onboard pilots then, An experienced bomber wing would have no problems taking down a carrier or a dreadnaught (even if it is their own side....) And an experienced fighter wing could effectively keep total space supremacy for the bombers while they drop their load

All the Midway would have to do is stay out of range, considering it is a dedicated carrier, it will have more fighters to sorty rather than the dreadnaught which is a bastard child of both a carrier and a battleship

TC · Post by TC » 2003-01-30 02:58pm

Alyeska wrote:
Bob McDob wrote: The Midway has only two CSMs.

Where'd you get two? The missile launching capability of the Midway comes from the instance if fired training missiles. These were fired from the lanch tubes, of which there are 6.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-30 03:59pm

TC wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Bob McDob wrote: The Midway has only two CSMs.
Where'd you get two? The missile launching capability of the Midway comes from the instance if fired training missiles. These were fired from the lanch tubes, of which there are 6.

So in other words the Midway doesn't have any anti-ship weapons. The Confederation merely needs to destroy the Midways bomber then close range and pound the Midway.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-30 04:06pm

Alyeska wrote: So in other words the Midway doesn't have any anti-ship weapons. The Confederation merely needs to destroy the Midways bomber then close range and pound the Midway.

Midway wins, you retard. The midway has 25 laser turrets, and a 252
craft air wing, PLUS the six launch tubes: No more strafing runs down
the single deck shutting down the entire carrier, like during the war.

Confederation only has 2 launch bays, a measly 3 flak guns, and a 120
craft air wing.

The Midway wins handily due to more AAA armament and over TWICE
the air wing carried, you fucking idiot.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-30 05:17pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: So in other words the Midway doesn't have any anti-ship weapons. The Confederation merely needs to destroy the Midways bomber then close range and pound the Midway.
Midway wins, you retard. The midway has 25 laser turrets, and a 252
craft air wing, PLUS the six launch tubes: No more strafing runs down
the single deck shutting down the entire carrier, like during the war.

Confederation only has 2 launch bays, a measly 3 flak guns, and a 120
craft air wing.

The Midway wins handily due to more AAA armament and over TWICE
the air wing carried, you fucking idiot.

The Midway's weapons are useless in captial ship combat. Did you even bother read what I posted? The Confederation can send all of its fighters and bombers against the Midways bombers. They can easily survive long enough to destroy the Midways bombers. With the Midway's bombers out of the way, there is nothing the Midway or its fighters can do to stop the Confederation. The Confederation on the other hand has dedicated anti-ship weapons that it can use to blow apart the Midway.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-30 05:25pm

Alyeska wrote:The Midway's weapons are useless in captial ship combat. Did you even bother read what I posted? The Confederation can send all of its fighters and bombers against the Midways bombers. They can easily survive long enough to destroy the Midways bombers. With the Midway's bombers out of the way, there is nothing the Midway or its fighters can do to stop the Confederation. The Confederation on the other hand has dedicated anti-ship weapons that it can use to blow apart the Midway.

You don't need to take the Midway into combat. It's fighter wing is big enough to take out all of Confederation's. Where do you get the idea that 120 can magically overwhelm 252? All they have to do is wipe out the Confederation's fighter wing then press home their attack.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-30 05:30pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Alyeska wrote:The Midway's weapons are useless in captial ship combat. Did you even bother read what I posted? The Confederation can send all of its fighters and bombers against the Midways bombers. They can easily survive long enough to destroy the Midways bombers. With the Midway's bombers out of the way, there is nothing the Midway or its fighters can do to stop the Confederation. The Confederation on the other hand has dedicated anti-ship weapons that it can use to blow apart the Midway.
You don't need to take the Midway into combat. It's fighter wing is big enough to take out all of Confederation's. Where do you get the idea that 120 can magically overwhelm 252? All they have to do is wipe out the Confederation's fighter wing then press home their attack.

Yes, 252 is larger then 120. However it would take time to destroy those 120. That same 120 can bore in and take down the handful of bombers the Midway launched. Its not a matter of the Confederation having some, or even any of its fighters winning. The Midway's only weapons for killing capital ships is its bombers. If the Confederation can take down those bombers, regardless of who wins the later fighter duel, the Confederation can overtake the Midway and pound it to scrap.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-30 05:34pm

Alyeska wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Alyeska wrote:The Midway's weapons are useless in captial ship combat. Did you even bother read what I posted? The Confederation can send all of its fighters and bombers against the Midways bombers. They can easily survive long enough to destroy the Midways bombers. With the Midway's bombers out of the way, there is nothing the Midway or its fighters can do to stop the Confederation. The Confederation on the other hand has dedicated anti-ship weapons that it can use to blow apart the Midway.
You don't need to take the Midway into combat. It's fighter wing is big enough to take out all of Confederation's. Where do you get the idea that 120 can magically overwhelm 252? All they have to do is wipe out the Confederation's fighter wing then press home their attack.
Yes, 252 is larger then 120. However it would take time to destroy those 120. That same 120 can bore in and take down the handful of bombers the Midway launched. Its not a matter of the Confederation having some, or even any of its fighters winning. The Midway's only weapons for killing capital ships is its bombers. If the Confederation can take down those bombers, regardless of who wins the later fighter duel, the Confederation can overtake the Midway and pound it to scrap.

Against more than double their numbers the Confederation's fighters aren't likely to get them all before they get killed themselves.

And the Confederation still can't win either. They'd have to sortie their fighters and bombers sooner or later and that'd mean they'd be in a position to get killed. That would be a slaughter.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-30 05:42pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Stormbringer wrote: You don't need to take the Midway into combat. It's fighter wing is big enough to take out all of Confederation's. Where do you get the idea that 120 can magically overwhelm 252? All they have to do is wipe out the Confederation's fighter wing then press home their attack.
Yes, 252 is larger then 120. However it would take time to destroy those 120. That same 120 can bore in and take down the handful of bombers the Midway launched. Its not a matter of the Confederation having some, or even any of its fighters winning. The Midway's only weapons for killing capital ships is its bombers. If the Confederation can take down those bombers, regardless of who wins the later fighter duel, the Confederation can overtake the Midway and pound it to scrap.
Against more than double their numbers the Confederation's fighters aren't likely to get them all before they get killed themselves.

And the Confederation still can't win either. They'd have to sortie their fighters and bombers sooner or later and that'd mean they'd be in a position to get killed. That would be a slaughter.

Ok, just to make this look good. The Confederation and Midway both begin outside of range and can get all their fighters launched before the battle.

Now, for the sake of argument lets place the Midway's bomber force at 50 bombers. Thats aproximately 2 squadrons of both Devestators and Shrikes. Now, these are big fat targets waiting to be shot down.

Even when outnumbered greatly it tends to be that fighters will shoot down equal numbers of the enemy if they are relatively comparable. But for the sake of argument lets say the Confederations 120 fighters only shoot down 1/2 an enemy fighter for every fighter they loose. Thats 60. If the Confederation can trade all 120 of its fighters for 50 bombers, that is a worthwhile trade. Those other 202 fighters on the Midway can't touch the Confederation. The Midway herself is powerless to stop the Confederation from running it down and pounding it to scrap.

So, the entire battle hinges on whether or not the Confederation can shoot down all of the Midway's bombers. I would give them a 66% chance at being able to do it. In other words 2 battles out of 3 the Confederation does it. The other battle the Midway manages to overwhelm the Confederation and the Midway's surviving bombers disable then destroy the Confederation.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-30 07:26pm

Alyeska wrote:So, the entire battle hinges on whether or not the Confederation can shoot down all of the Midway's bombers. I would give them a 66% chance at being able to do it. In other words 2 battles out of 3 the Confederation does it. The other battle the Midway manages to overwhelm the Confederation and the Midway's surviving bombers disable then destroy the Confederation.

I don't rate their chances so well. The fighters would still be outnumbered and have to get all the bombers. Leave as much as two or three and they're dead. The odds are still very, very poor for the Confederation. It's ridiculous to think they'd be able to cut through nearly twice as many fighters as they have in total (bombers make shitty dogfighters) and get all of them. I think your esitmation of the chances are completely overblown.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-30 08:09pm

And of course, Alyeska, you're forgetting that any of the Midway's fighter that survive in your suicide scenario can go in scrape the guns off the Confederation and the CSMs will get through.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-30 08:19pm

Stormbringer wrote:And of course, Alyeska, you're forgetting that any of the Midway's fighter that survive in your suicide scenario can go in scrape the guns off the Confederation and the CSMs will get through.

Unlike the normal guns, AMGs fire through the shields. Besides, the Midway doesn't have CSM launchers. TC pointed out the Midway launched 6 training missiles to distract the enemy thinking they were fighters, and the Midway has 6 fighter launch tubes.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-30 08:24pm

Alyeska wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:And of course, Alyeska, you're forgetting that any of the Midway's fighter that survive in your suicide scenario can go in scrape the guns off the Confederation and the CSMs will get through.
Unlike the normal guns, AMGs fire through the shields. Besides, the Midway doesn't have CSM launchers. TC pointed out the Midway launched 6 training missiles to distract the enemy thinking they were fighters, and the Midway has 6 fighter launch tubes.

So what if the AMG can fire through the sheilds?

My point is rather simple, unless you're 120 fighters get all the 252, some could damn well destroy the AMGs and leave the Confederation weaponless.

And TC offers what proof for his claims?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-30 08:32pm

Wait...what exactly are Midway's fighters doing while Confederation's fighters are killing the bombers? How do the Connie's fighters beat the fighter escort AND shoot down all the bombers when they're at a more than 2:1 numerical disadvantage? I agree that based on the data in this thread so far, the Confederation could pound Midway into debris if Midway's bombers weren't in the way, but I'm not clear on how you make the bombers go away without the fighters having SOMETHING to say about it.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-30 10:49pm

Alyeska wrote: Unlike the normal guns, AMGs fire through the shields.

Quoth the WC2 tech manual:

Antimatter guns are slow to aim and cannot be readily be used against fighter-sized craft

{knock it off Shep ~ Stormbringer}

If you cannot comprehend why the Midway's 252 craft Air wing will
bitchslap down the Confederation's 120 craft air wing...then you're
trully stupid....too stupid to be a mod....