Necrons vs. The Culture

Vain · Post by **Vain** » 2008-01-09 01:00pm

Stop me if you've heard this one. I did a quick search of this forum and found a ton of lists ranking civilizations against each other, but no in-depth direct comparisons of the Necrons vs. The Culture.

So! The Eldar find a crazy Old Ones crafted doomsday weapon and pull the pin, resulting in the 41st millenium Necrons being shunted into another reality. What happens to the rest of 40k is irrelevant.

The Necrons (and C'tan) discover themselves in the Culture-verse. All of their remaining infrastructure (tomb-worlds, ships, etc) has traveled with them. Their star maps are mostly correct (it is nominally the same galaxy), but not completely due to changes made my various races in both universes (stars blown up in 40k may not be blown up in the Culture-verse, for example, and vice versa).

The Necrons initially go unnoticed. It's a big galaxy and the Culture has explored only a portion of it. However, the 'crons cannot believe their luck at finding themselves in a galaxy that teems with life but lacks any connection to the Immaterium. They proceed to start flying around and harvesting sapients to feed their gods' crack habit.

This catches the attention of Special Circumstances, and the Culture as a whole. As usual, they take offense at this sort of silliness and although an attempt to communicate is made, war seems inevitable. The Culture starts to mobilize.

So the question is, who wins? I don't really have an opinion. I am familiar with the Necrons' capabilities on the tabletop, but don't really know much about their quantifiable feats in the fiction. I seem to remember them having a ludicrous-speed realspace drive.

What do you guys think? NecronLord, I'm looking at you.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 01:01pm

The Culture wins.

Vain · Post by **Vain** » 2008-01-09 01:03pm

NecronLord wrote:The Culture wins.

That was somewhat disappointing. What about the War in Heaven era necrons?

fgalkin2 · Post by **fgalkin2** » 2008-01-09 01:04pm

The Necrons get WTFOMGPWNED in short order. Well, maybe not exactly short short, but any time they come within a few dozen lightyears of a Culture ship.

Then the C'Tan get into play and eat all the Orbitals.

Still, Lightyear sensors+ Hyperspace+ Nanosecond reaction times+ Effectors+ Displaced CAM+ Gridfire> Glorified Space Combine Harvesters.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Vain · Post by **Vain** » 2008-01-09 01:06pm

Could Gridfire harm the C'tan? Is there anything the Culture could to do stop the C'tan?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 01:06pm

The Culture still wins. Anything the Necrons might have that could raise the bar is purely speculative. Given what we know, the Culture are capable of fighting battles before the necrons and their warships even know what's happened.

The most likely result is that, if possible, the Necrons are altered in some way to make them sapient again, and encouraged to adopt a more peaceful course.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 01:08pm

Vain wrote:Could Gridfire harm the C'tan? Is there anything the Culture could to do stop the C'tan?

Gridfire is talked up a great deal, but is, to our knowledge (future books may change this) in the form used by the Culture, essentially a seige weapon/WMD.

In any case, yes. They could threaten (directly, or with necron aid) to deny the C'tan access to necrodermises. While the C'tan can do damage without them, they're not likely to tolerate such a drop in their quality of life.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2008-01-09 01:09pm

Ugh it would suck going to an Orbital to watch a race and have to share a box with a few ex-Necrons. I bet they smell like a funeral parlor...AND GAUSS.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 01:10pm

NeoGoomba wrote:Ugh it would suck going to an Orbital to watch a race and have to share a box with a few ex-Necrons. I bet they smell like a funeral parlor...AND GAUSS.

Is that a (very bad) pun?

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2008-01-09 01:12pm

NecronLord wrote:Is that a (very bad) pun?

...those are the only kinds I know...

fgalkin2 · Post by **fgalkin2** » 2008-01-09 01:15pm

Vain wrote:Could Gridfire harm the C'tan? Is there anything the Culture could to do stop the C'tan?

Yes. Not be there when they arrive. They're essentially a mobile civilization, anyway, with a large percentage living on GSVs. Orbitals are essentially a luxury, and will most likely be evacuated. Then, they just let the Star Gods chase their own tails while they come up with a way to kill them, or until they piss off some Sublimed species and end up erased from reality.

Then all the metal boyz get remoralized, and happily join the Culture where they get a tech upgrade and become nothing but weird-looking drones.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 01:17pm

fgalkin2 wrote:Yes. Not be there when they arrive.

We don't know the speed at which C'tan move, merely that they're capable of independant FTL.

fgalkin2 · Post by **fgalkin2** » 2008-01-09 01:25pm

NecronLord wrote:
fgalkin2 wrote:Yes. Not be there when they arrive.
We don't know the speed at which C'tan move, merely that they're capable of independant FTL.

Can't they use the Necron Space Harvesters of Doom to carry them to their destination?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 01:28pm

fgalkin2 wrote:Can't they use the Necron Space Harvesters of Doom to carry them to their destination?

Yes. However, we've seen one literally fly off a planet on his own, like Superman, and then be around some other star some unspecified distance away in the epilogue.

fgalkin2 · Post by **fgalkin2** » 2008-01-09 01:38pm

NecronLord wrote:
fgalkin2 wrote:Can't they use the Necron Space Harvesters of Doom to carry them to their destination?
Yes. However, we've seen one literally fly off a planet on his own, like Superman, and then be around some other star some unspecified distance away in the epilogue.

Well, yeah. My point that it's likely the Necrons' ship FTL is faster than that, so they could use it to strike at Culture Orbitals faster.

Which would be the only victories they would have in the war. And once the Culture hears of this and evacuates its surviving orbitals (there are a lot more orbitals than there are C'Tan, after all), all they can do is gnash their teeth and watch as their slaves get wiped out or converted by an enemy they can't even see.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 01:45pm

fgalkin2 wrote:Well, yeah. My point that it's likely the Necrons' ship FTL is faster than that, so they could use it to strike at Culture Orbitals faster.

Possibly.

Which would be the only victories they would have in the war. And once the Culture hears of this and evacuates its surviving orbitals (there are a lot more orbitals than there are C'Tan, after all), all they can do is gnash their teeth and watch as their slaves get wiped out or converted by an enemy they can't even see.

I think you seriously underestimate the subtlety of the C'tan's likely approach. They're not borg. I'm not saying it'll work, mind you, but mass destruction of random people isn't what they're about. They're screwed, they're just not doomed in that particular way.

'Can't see' is not certain, by the way. C'tan are 'masters of dimensional engineering' and able to construct 'worlds within worlds' and have their ships disappear from the 'material universe' as and when they please. Can't effectively fight, is still there, mind you, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Necrontyr are able to operate in some 4+1 dimensional way.

And of course, what you didn't mention above is that the Culture would be advanced considerably by positive interaction with the necrontyr. Far superior FTL, trans-galactic instant travel, and possibly longer ranged displacement (unlikely, mind. It's possible that the Necrons have interstellar displacement, from a certain interpretation of the Armegeddon fluff, but even then, it's only to nearby systems) would be considerable benefits for the Culture.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2008-01-09 03:39pm

NecronLord wrote:
Far superior FTL, trans-galactic instant travel, and possibly longer ranged displacement (unlikely, mind. It's possible that the Necrons have interstellar displacement, from a certain interpretation of the Armegeddon fluff, but even then, it's only to nearby systems) would be considerable benefits for the Culture.

With regards to the Culture's comparatively slower FTL drive, how much faster are WH40k warp drives (or whatever they are called) compared to traveling through (over and across) the grid?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 03:47pm

NeoGoomba wrote:With regards to the Culture's comparatively slower FTL drive, how much faster are WH40k warp drives (or whatever they are called) compared to traveling through (over and across) the grid?

They're about the same speed, on the order of years to cross the galaxy. A lot less predictable or useful, though.

Necron inertialess drives, on the other hand, are capable of crossing the galaxy in the blink of an eye. Some 6e12 C, or fourteen million times as fast as the Sleeper Service, a Culture ship that modified itself to achieve 'sickening' speeds (233,000 C)

Vain · Post by **Vain** » 2008-01-09 05:26pm

My understanding of their comparative speeds is that the Culture ships would have greater tactical speed, since they fight from hyperspace, whereas the necrons slow to sublight to engage in combat. However, the Necrons' strategic speed is so fast it may as well be teleporting, so they could theoretically pick their battles.

The question for me (since I didn't know Necron capabilities) was whether the ability to choose the battlefield would actually be useful to the Necrons. If they have no defense against effectors or displaced CAM, then they are hosed the first time they try to pick a fight, because even relatively shitty GCUs could instantly effectorize them. If they are instead resistant to effectors and their shields prevent displacement, then the war becomes a bit more interesting, as both sides fly circles around each other trying to get their opponents to hold still long enough to land the killing blow. According to NecronLord, the answer is the former rather than the latter, which is what I wanted to know.

It seems that the best thing to do in this situation is for the Necrons and the C'tan to flee to another galaxy and avoid the Culture altogether.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-09 05:39pm

Vain wrote:My understanding of their comparative speeds is that the Culture ships would have greater tactical speed, since they fight from hyperspace, whereas the necrons slow to sublight to engage in combat. However, the Necrons' strategic speed is so fast it may as well be teleporting, so they could theoretically pick their battles.

Doesn't matter. The battle will be won for the Culture before the necrons can fire a shot

The question for me (since I didn't know Necron capabilities) was whether the ability to choose the battlefield would actually be useful to the Necrons. If they have no defense against effectors

They may well have such a thing. They have a similar, but much more elaborate, technology that they use for morale-damaging terror-attacks. It's irrelevant anyway. The Culture can blast them to bits instantly.

or displaced CAM, then they are hosed the first time they try to pick a fight, because even relatively shitty GCUs could instantly effectorize them. If they are instead resistant to effectors and their shields prevent displacement,

They have no shields. They appear to have nothing that would stop displacers (they use something similar extensively, if they have such a technology, it would likely impair their own ability to fight.

It seems that the best thing to do in this situation is for the Necrons and the C'tan to flee to another galaxy and avoid the Culture altogether.

There's no evidence that this would help them. The local equivalents may be even more powerful, or outright hostile like the Idirans.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2008-01-12 02:26am

I foresee The Minds going for the throat on this one as they find out the Necrotyr are intentionally lobotomized drone-analogues/sentients and the C'tan finding out in short order what terrors a group of minds can devise. Of course, I really don't see the culture having to break out offensive weaponry as effectors would be damned effective on the rank and file, and since they're mostly non-sentient, there won't be any moral quandaries when necrons are tagged with the effectors.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-12 03:44am

Necrons are sapient. They're just emotionless. And the only actual witness to that effect (one of the necrons that can still pass as human) who's talked about it (rather than the semi-legendry style of the codex) seems to imply that it was indeed consentual - he's pissed that he's not 'pure' like them.