The Genetic code brain bug.

[Omeganian]

I would like to discuss a brain bug which seems to be universal for both the Star Wars, Star Trek, and a lot of other SF as well. Ignoring the genetic code.

Explaining. The DNA encodes proteins according to a certain code. Each of the sixty four codons translates into one of the twenty amino acids present in the Earth forms of life, a start signal, or a stop signal (spacebars, so to speak). A single site gives 17 different codes, and that's on one planet with all life having a common origin. Now try to imagine the number of possible combinations, and tell me; what are the odds of an alien life form, with a different origin - even if it is also using DNA and proteins - to have the same code as a human.

I never saw a single SF book where this problem was referenced. Yet so long as the codes are different, there is no way to combine the genes. No assimilation. No genetic engineering. (The seeding I heard about in connection with ST can't work either, unless you rebuild the entire biosphere with a new code). There can be no virus infection, either, because the virus replicates using the host's own mechanisms.

[Darth Servo]

Humans should have nothing in common with aliens genetically. Sci-writers have been smoking weed for a long time on this one and yes, the issue has been brought up countless times before. This concludes this public service announcement.

[Ghost Rider]

This thread is filled with a new and never thought of topic .

Off to OSF anyways.

[loomer]

My d20 future homebrew setting takes this into account. The only risk of viruses/etc transferring from earth to, say, Mars, is because Mars has been settled long enough to have life that has specifically adapted to the local conditions and may not possess resistance anymore (possibly due to manufactured/mutated viruses/bacteria providing a beneficial effect that caused natural selection to favour those WITHOUT the resistance). Basically the Native Problem, as it were.

One system has 5 species who share SOME vulnerabilities to particular viruses, but only because they all evolved from a single group of one species which was forced to crash on the various worlds, ~2 million years ago. Now, this species is extremely adaptive and capable of actually 'pruning' their genetic structure, so while they don't seem related at first (with the exception of constant face tentacles, like Zoidberg or Cthulhu), they still share a potential weakness to, say, their version of AIDS or the flu

[Axiomatic]

I liked that in Terry Pratchett's Strata, where an alien species called the Shand can't even digest non-Shand proteins.

[Omeganian]

The only risk of viruses/etc transferring from earth to, say, Mars, is because Mars has been settled long enough to have life that has specifically adapted to the local conditions and may not possess resistance anymore

It's got nothing to do with resistance. A Mac virus won't crash - won't get into a PC for windows even if there is no antivirus there at all. Bacteria - maybe, they live on chemicals. But not a virus.

[Broomstick]

I would like to discuss a brain bug which seems to be universal for both the Star Wars, Star Trek, and a lot of other SF as well. Ignoring the genetic code.

Explaining. The DNA encodes proteins according to a certain code. Each of the sixty four codons translates into one of the twenty amino acids present in the Earth forms of life, a start signal, or a stop signal (spacebars, so to speak). A single site gives 17 different codes, and that's on one planet with all life having a common origin. Now try to imagine the number of possible combinations, and tell me; what are the odds of an alien life form, with a different origin - even if it is also using DNA and proteins - to have the same code as a human.

I never saw a single SF book where this problem was referenced.

Actually, Larry Niven DID reference that in one of his novels. I think it might have been one of the Ringworld books, but it's been a long time and I can't remember. Anyhow, it was Louis Wu noting that while humans and Kzinti both used DNA and might, under the panspermia theory of spreading life, have had very, very distant common progenitor (in Niven's universe there had been space-faring species millions and also billions of years in the past that "cross-contaminated" many worlds, including seeding lifeless worlds with biosphere-building single-cell life) there was no way to cross the two, cross-species sex was physical impossible (well, that was implied, not explicitly stated), they couldn't share diseases, and it was even somewhat surprising they could eat the same food. It was, however, a one-paragraph toss-off so I'm not surprised you missed it.

Since we don't know what life native to another world would be like it's a little hard to say on some details - it may be poisonous or indigestible to our form of life, or vice versa. Or it may be similar enough for us to eat each other, in which case bacteria and fungal type infections may have some chance of affecting species of two different biospheres

[loomer]

The only risk of viruses/etc transferring from earth to, say, Mars, is because Mars has been settled long enough to have life that has specifically adapted to the local conditions and may not possess resistance anymore

It's got nothing to do with resistance. A Mac virus won't crash - won't get into a PC for windows even if there is no antivirus there at all. Bacteria - maybe, they live on chemicals. But not a virus.

It has everything to do with resistance in this case. These aren't Aliens on Mars. They're humans, and plants/animals/whatever from Earth that they brought with them. Same basic structure, same basic weaknesses, environmental and exposure differences.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Star Trek did actually explain that, with with a version of the panspermia idea. So many living things are humanoid, and compatible, because a billion+ years old humanoid race left a genetic program embedded in the life of many worlds to make it that way.

In Calculating God by Robert Sawyer, a similarity in coding - and the fact that all life used the same code - was taken as evidence by several alien races of the existence of a God. That's "God" as in "really powerful creator of the universe", not a mythological deity.

Assuming that the compatibility is artificial, a design decision, does get you past the "what are the odds ?" argument. So does the common ancestor theory. As Broomstick mentions, in the Known Space universe, a great deal of life evolved from the leftovers of the Thrint aka Slavers.

In the Sector General stories by James White, biological incompatibility is a major plot point. Disease can't cross between two separate evolutions, although some poisons can.

[Molyneux]

I would like to discuss a brain bug which seems to be universal for both the Star Wars, Star Trek, and a lot of other SF as well. Ignoring the genetic code.

Explaining. The DNA encodes proteins according to a certain code. Each of the sixty four codons translates into one of the twenty amino acids present in the Earth forms of life, a start signal, or a stop signal (spacebars, so to speak). A single site gives 17 different codes, and that's on one planet with all life having a common origin. Now try to imagine the number of possible combinations, and tell me; what are the odds of an alien life form, with a different origin - even if it is also using DNA and proteins - to have the same code as a human.

I never saw a single SF book where this problem was referenced.

Actually, Larry Niven DID reference that in one of his novels. I think it might have been one of the Ringworld books, but it's been a long time and I can't remember. Anyhow, it was Louis Wu noting that while humans and Kzinti both used DNA and might, under the panspermia theory of spreading life, have had very, very distant common progenitor (in Niven's universe there had been space-faring species millions and also billions of years in the past that "cross-contaminated" many worlds, including seeding lifeless worlds with biosphere-building single-cell life) there was no way to cross the two, cross-species sex was physical impossible (well, that was implied, not explicitly stated), they couldn't share diseases, and it was even somewhat surprising they could eat the same food. It was, however, a one-paragraph toss-off so I'm not surprised you missed it.

Since we don't know what life native to another world would be like it's a little hard to say on some details - it may be poisonous or indigestible to our form of life, or vice versa. Or it may be similar enough for us to eat each other, in which case bacteria and fungal type infections may have some chance of affecting species of two different biospheres

Umm...doesn't one of the spinoff Man-Kzin Wars stories feature a human in a sexual relationship with a (prehistoric, sentient) female Kzin? It's stil made quite clear that offspring is completely impossible, but the whole "tab A in slot B" seems to work well enough.

[Omeganian]

Star Trek did actually explain that, with with a version of the panspermia idea. So many living things are humanoid, and compatible, because a billion+ years old humanoid race left a genetic program embedded in the life of many worlds to make it that way.

In Calculating God by Robert Sawyer, a similarity in coding - and the fact that all life used the same code - was taken as evidence by several alien races of the existence of a God. That's "God" as in "really powerful creator of the universe", not a mythological deity.

Assuming that the compatibility is artificial, a design decision, does get you past the "what are the odds ?" argument. So does the common ancestor theory. As Broomstick mentions, in the Known Space universe, a great deal of life evolved from the leftovers of the Thrint aka Slavers.

In the Sector General stories by James White, biological incompatibility is a major plot point. Disease can't cross between two separate evolutions, although some poisons can.

I did write that ST seeding won't work as well. If the old race embedded their genes in different life forms without rewriting their own code - they couldn't have. If they did rewrite it - the genetic codes should still be incompatible with each other. The only other way is to destroy the entire biosphere and put new life forms instead, identical to the old ones. Even without ethical problems, that's very difficult to do without leaving a few life forms still possessing vastly different genetic codes. So far, the variations found on Earth are very minor.

A common origin... Well, that would leave signs of sudden appearance.

[Broomstick]

Umm...doesn't one of the spinoff Man-Kzin Wars stories feature a human in a sexual relationship with a (prehistoric, sentient) female Kzin? It's stil made quite clear that offspring is completely impossible, but the whole "tab A in slot B" seems to work well enough.

The only man-kzinti war story I'm familiar with involving inter-species sex involved an arguably mentally derranged modern male kzin screwing a human female that he had altered to be more kzin-like mentally - I don't recall explicit intercourse between them, although it's possible physically modifications might have been made to allow it. So maybe the one you're thinking of is a different one? I know I haven't read all of them.

[Zixinus]

Umm...doesn't one of the spinoff Man-Kzin Wars stories feature a human in a sexual relationship with a (prehistoric, sentient) female Kzin? It's stil made quite clear that offspring is completely impossible, but the whole "tab A in slot B" seems to work well enough.

Thank you for that lovely mental image. Now, if you excuse me, I have to poke my eyes out now.

[Swindle1984]

Larry Niven mentions the issue repeatedly throughout the Ringworld quadrilogy and the Known Space series, as do other authors in the Man-Kzin Wars series. For example, in Ringworld, Louis Wu, Speaker-To-Animals, and others take allergy pills after eating native food (plants, animals, etc.) in case of a conflict there. It's even mentioned several times that it's surprising that humans and Kzinti are similar enough to eat each other without major issues. Another Man-Kzin Wars short story features the sole survivor of a ship attacked and boarded by Kzinti raiders modifying the food dispenser to alter the proteins, fat, etc. in the food into a form Kzinti digestive systems couldn't handle, slowly poisoning them.

I would like to discuss a brain bug which seems to be universal for both the Star Wars, Star Trek, and a lot of other SF as well. Ignoring the genetic code.

Explaining. The DNA encodes proteins according to a certain code. Each of the sixty four codons translates into one of the twenty amino acids present in the Earth forms of life, a start signal, or a stop signal (spacebars, so to speak). A single site gives 17 different codes, and that's on one planet with all life having a common origin. Now try to imagine the number of possible combinations, and tell me; what are the odds of an alien life form, with a different origin - even if it is also using DNA and proteins - to have the same code as a human.

I never saw a single SF book where this problem was referenced.

Actually, Larry Niven DID reference that in one of his novels. I think it might have been one of the Ringworld books, but it's been a long time and I can't remember. Anyhow, it was Louis Wu noting that while humans and Kzinti both used DNA and might, under the panspermia theory of spreading life, have had very, very distant common progenitor (in Niven's universe there had been space-faring species millions and also billions of years in the past that "cross-contaminated" many worlds, including seeding lifeless worlds with biosphere-building single-cell life) there was no way to cross the two, cross-species sex was physical impossible (well, that was implied, not explicitly stated), they couldn't share diseases, and it was even somewhat surprising they could eat the same food. It was, however, a one-paragraph toss-off so I'm not surprised you missed it.

Since we don't know what life native to another world would be like it's a little hard to say on some details - it may be poisonous or indigestible to our form of life, or vice versa. Or it may be similar enough for us to eat each other, in which case bacteria and fungal type infections may have some chance of affecting species of two different biospheres

Umm...doesn't one of the spinoff Man-Kzin Wars stories feature a human in a sexual relationship with a (prehistoric, sentient) female Kzin? It's stil made quite clear that offspring is completely impossible, but the whole "tab A in slot B" seems to work well enough.

They never had sex. They adopted the lifestyle of a mated pair in order to make the other two females they released recognize them as dominant and follow their lead.

They slept on the same mat, if they sat in tandem on his hover craft thingy she sat in front (she considered it obscene for the female to sit behind the male, and considering how Kzin mate according to the description in Destiny's Forge, that makes sense), and they engaged in behavior similar to what a mated pair of Kzin would do (such as his tickling her ribs with the end of his w'tsai knife), but they never engaged in sexual behavior.

The only man-kzinti war story I'm familiar with involving inter-species sex involved an arguably mentally derranged modern male kzin screwing a human female that he had altered to be more kzin-like mentally - I don't recall explicit intercourse between them, although it's possible physically modifications might have been made to allow it. So maybe the one you're thinking of is a different one? I know I haven't read all of them.

They never had sex either. He did slowly, over time, cause specific brain damage so that she lost her language skills and most of her memory, and he did alter her so that she grew hair on her entire body (which he thought made her more attractive than her previous naked ape look), but they never engaged in physical intercourse.

He also artificially inseminated her so that he would have a stock to take back with him to Kzin Home and manipulated it so that she gave birth to twins, one male, one female, like Kzin do. He then fucked with the girls to do the same brain damage and hair growth to them, but left the boys alone so they would be useful slaves. The captured lietenant was too dangerous to leave alone, so he made her more like a Kzinti female so she (and her daughters) would be simple breeders and the males were the intelligent ones.

[Molyneux]

They never had sex. They adopted the lifestyle of a mated pair in order to make the other two females they released recognize them as dominant and follow their lead.

They slept on the same mat, if they sat in tandem on his hover craft thingy she sat in front (she considered it obscene for the female to sit behind the male, and considering how Kzin mate according to the description in Destiny's Forge, that makes sense), and they engaged in behavior similar to what a mated pair of Kzin would do (such as his tickling her ribs with the end of his w'tsai knife), but they never engaged in sexual behavior.

My mistake, then; it's been awhile since I last read it.

The only man-kzinti war story I'm familiar with involving inter-species sex involved an arguably mentally derranged modern male kzin screwing a human female that he had altered to be more kzin-like mentally - I don't recall explicit intercourse between them, although it's possible physically modifications might have been made to allow it. So maybe the one you're thinking of is a different one? I know I haven't read all of them.

They never had sex either. He did slowly, over time, cause specific brain damage so that she lost her language skills and most of her memory, and he did alter her so that she grew hair on her entire body (which he thought made her more attractive than her previous naked ape look), but they never engaged in physical intercourse.

He also artificially inseminated her so that he would have a stock to take back with him to Kzin Home and manipulated it so that she gave birth to twins, one male, one female, like Kzin do. He then fucked with the girls to do the same brain damage and hair growth to them, but left the boys alone so they would be useful slaves. The captured lietenant was too dangerous to leave alone, so he made her more like a Kzinti female so she (and her daughters) would be simple breeders and the males were the intelligent ones.

Well. That's pretty damn disturbing. I hope I never stumble across that story.

[Zixinus]

Reading this tread, I am reminded that one faithful Dr.Who episode. Granted, Dr.Who does have a lovely tendency to not only throw science on the window but blast it trough the wall with a howitzer.

*warning, spoilers*







Anyway, it was the "Evolution of the Daleks" story about. Remember when the Dalek's modified humans? I recall in one event a scene in their laboratory where they shown Dalek and human DNA mixed. The Dalek DNA looked very, very much different then human.

So, there is this passive acknowledgement that Daleks are an alien species with completely different biology but the plot rolls on regardless of this.

[Junghalli]

Well. That's pretty damn disturbing. I hope I never stumble across that story.

I read it, it wasn't a bad story.

[Junghalli]

Ghetto edit:

To address the topic, honestly I'd be surprised if aliens even use the same DNA base pairs as we do, or even necessarily DNA. As I recall there's a theory that the original information-encoding molecule was actually RNA, and DNA evolved later. RNA is single stranded and has one different base pair from DNA. There's probably plenty of potential information storage molecules that evolution could come up with.

[Broomstick]

The only man-kzinti war story I'm familiar with involving inter-species sex involved an arguably mentally derranged modern male kzin screwing a human female that he had altered to be more kzin-like mentally - I don't recall explicit intercourse between them, although it's possible physically modifications might have been made to allow it. So maybe the one you're thinking of is a different one? I know I haven't read all of them.

They never had sex either. He did slowly, over time, cause specific brain damage so that she lost her language skills and most of her memory, and he did alter her so that she grew hair on her entire body (which he thought made her more attractive than her previous naked ape look), but they never engaged in physical intercourse.

He also artificially inseminated her so that he would have a stock to take back with him to Kzin Home and manipulated it so that she gave birth to twins, one male, one female, like Kzin do. He then fucked with the girls to do the same brain damage and hair growth to them, but left the boys alone so they would be useful slaves. The captured lietenant was too dangerous to leave alone, so he made her more like a Kzinti female so she (and her daughters) would be simple breeders and the males were the intelligent ones.

Well. That's pretty damn disturbing. I hope I never stumble across that story.

I think it was SUPPOSED to be disturbing, actually....

[Ohma]

I read it, it wasn't a bad story.

Yeah, the story is good. The main character is a "cowardly" Kzin, and the story follows his life as he tries to survive in Kzin society. The creepy part takes up only about the last fifth of it. But it is fucking creepy, and thanks for reminding me about it.

I remember Nivin mentioning in the preamble to the first Man-Kzin Wars anthology, that the biological differences between Humans and Kzinti were one of many things very wrong with a piece of BDSM fanfiction someone pointed him towards online. I'll try to find my copy because I recall his description of how wrong the fic was as being very funny.

[Darth Servo]

OK, lets take this in a different direction. Suppose the Sci-fi depiction of aliens being able to cross-breed turned out to be true. Suppose in so many years, when humans do reach other planets, we discover life on them and its identical to life on Earth. What effect does this have on our understanding of biology, evolution, etc?

[Darth Raptor]

I suppose the most parsimonious assumption would be that Terran biochemistry is the best/most likely to occur and thus, when one finds multicellular life, it's almost always going to be fundamentally similar.

Crossbreeding however, convergent evolution alone would have a hard time explaining that. That's the kind of coincidence that only happens if it has infinite time. I think biologists would seriously consider common ancestry hypotheses in the event that [Terran species] and [alien species] turn out to be one and the same.

[Junghalli]

OK, lets take this in a different direction. Suppose the Sci-fi depiction of aliens being able to cross-breed turned out to be true. Suppose in so many years, when humans do reach other planets, we discover life on them and its identical to life on Earth. What effect does this have on our understanding of biology, evolution, etc?

Humanoids on other planets being interfertile with us is so ridiculously unlikely that you'd basically have to assume a common ancestor, probably no more than 100,000 years back or so, or some sort of artificial intervention. We'd have to assume that either a human civilization reached the stars long ago, humans aren't from Earth, aliens put humans on other planets for some reason, or aliens seeded many worlds including Earth with similar organisms. Given that the fossil record pretty much proves humans evolved on Earth and a starflight-capable civilization should have left traces I'd be betting on the last two options.

Creationists and other woo-woos would be having a field day with it, especially if the aliens have fossil and genetic evidence indicating they evolved on their planets as well. Some theistic evolutionists would probably take it as proof that God exists and guided the evolution of sapient species everywhere to a form that was in His image.

[RedImperator]

Some theistic evolutionists would probably take it as proof that God exists and guided the evolution of sapient species everywhere to a form that was in His image.

Given the scenario as described, they'd have a halfway decent case. Some entity would have to be closely coordinating evolution across light-years, and doing it in such a way the evidence is invisible unless one possesses interstellar travel.

[Paolo]

Some theistic evolutionists would probably take it as proof that God exists and guided the evolution of sapient species everywhere to a form that was in His image.

Given the scenario as described, they'd have a halfway decent case. Some entity would have to be closely coordinating evolution across light-years, and doing it in such a way the evidence is invisible unless one possesses interstellar travel.

I'm actually writing a short story along these lines, "Hovind Ergaster," about the strength of creationism amongst extraterrestrial, pre-interstellar hominid cultures.