SG-1 What If: Sokar Lives...

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SG-1 What If: Sokar Lives...

Post by Big Orange »

Way, way back in Season Three of Stargate SG-1 in the two parter mainly set on Sokar's faux hell Natu, what would happen with the show and story arc if Apophis was killed off two seasons early and Sokar lived to carry on with his grand plan to eliminate the other rival Goa'uld System Lords?
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Post by Revy »

Well, based on Thors prediction, he could probably turn his attention to planets like Earth and send a sizeable fleet, calling the Asgards bluff. Without the Asgard to protect Earth at that time, Earth would have lost.

Failing that, Anubis if he was around at the time might have decided to surface early, take out Sokar, and assume galactic control for himself, although both Anubis and Sokar are as bad as each other, so Earth would still be screwed.

The Tok'ra and SGC might go ahead and try to assassinate Sokar again, and any goa'uld subservent to him would start squabbling for control of his domain afterwards.

The producers actually admitted that they regretted killing Sokar off so early, realizing that he had better pottential to be a big bad than Apophis did. This is pressumably why they later introduced Anubis to the show, aka Sokar on steroids. Played by the same actor no less. I wouldn't have been surprised if they initially planned to write Sokar back in, but couldn't think of a logical way to do it and have it make sense, so changed him into a different, even more dangerous version instead.
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Post by Big Orange »

Heh, I always thought Anubis was pretty boring and generic, but at least we had Oh Mighty Ba'al. :)

I wonder if Sokar seemed high and mighty, but then ironically meet a similar fate to Apophis in "Serpent's Song" where you hear about Sokar becoming king of the galaxy but then getting violently deposed and fleeing to SGC (where the symbiote dies). The host is freed and becomes another supporting character who helps to overthrow Anubis, since the host may not be fully human anyway and longterm Goa'uld possession affected him in a different way. But that sounds dumb.
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Post by Solauren »

Sometimes I wonder if Sokar was being supported by anubis, and Sokar's death only delayed the inevitable.

However, odds are, Sokar would have overwhelmed the Gou'ald system lords, and taken over the galaxy, including kicking the Asguard out.

Eventually, the Asguard are killed by the Replicators, who may invade our galaxy.

End result; Replicators rule the universe.
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Post by Revy »

Solauren wrote:Sometimes I wonder if Sokar was being supported by anubis, and Sokar's death only delayed the inevitable.

However, odds are, Sokar would have overwhelmed the Gou'ald system lords, and taken over the galaxy, including kicking the Asguard out.

Eventually, the Asguard are killed by the Replicators, who may invade our galaxy.

End result; Replicators rule the universe.
Not really. Without access to Ancient tech that Anubis used to enhance his shields and weapons, Sokar would have been no match for the Replicators. Granted, if Sokar destroyed Earth then the Asgard might fall to the Replicators, but like as not SG1 and some humans would survive on the Alpha, Beta and others sites they had set up, and would continue to aid the Asgard (especially since defeating the Replicators would free up the Asgard to come along and whup Sokars butt).

And don't forget that Anubis knew about the Dakara superweapon. With Sokar being hammered by either the Replicators or the Asgard, he'd have been able to swoop in and use the weapon to clear out the Galaxy and rebuild it to his own liking.

I'd say that, in the end the result would probably be a win for Anubis, since he very nearly did just that^, and was only stopped because of a last minute appeal from Daniel to motivate Oma into stopping him.
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Post by Revy »

Edit Above - I meant to say that without the Ancient tech to enhance his ships, Sokar would have been no match for the Asgard, not the Replicators. Although it goes without saying that if he can't tackle the Asgard, then he certainly wouldn't last five seconds against the Asgards worst enemy.
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Post by NecronLord »

I don't see much difference. There's nothing to say that Sokar was more intelligent or capable than Apophis was. Crueller, perhaps.
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Post by Revy »

Well Sokar was poised to attack the System Lords and take over the galaxy. The Tok'ra believed he would succeed. His entire fleet is made ready, and is only hours away from launching the planned attack. Apophis steps in takes up his reins and ... nothing. He does jack shit. He doesn't attack the System Lords, but instead floats around in his ship doing whatever it is that he does. Oh, and having a new super ship get built as well, but that gets toasted by SG1.

Really, Sokar rose to the top, was outcast from the System Lords for being bad even for a Goa'uld, amassed the largest armada of any one Goa'uld, and was set to defeat the combined might of the System Lords. He was also stated repeatedly as being 'really that much worse than all the rest'. Even Thor admitted that the Asgard may not have sufficient power to stop him should he call their bluff.

Apophis on the other hand had at best mediocre forces at his command, was a minor player that didn't even get the other System Lords to support his attack on Earth way back in Season 1, and when he stepped into Sokar's shoes, he didn't defeat the System Lords or even try, not even after absorbing the forces of Heru-er, the most powerful of the System Lords at that time.
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Post by NecronLord »

Revy wrote:Well Sokar was poised to attack the System Lords and take over the galaxy. The Tok'ra believed he would succeed. His entire fleet is made ready, and is only hours away from launching the planned attack. Apophis steps in takes up his reins and ... nothing. He does jack shit. He doesn't attack the System Lords, but instead floats around in his ship doing whatever it is that he does. Oh, and having a new super ship get built as well, but that gets toasted by SG1.
So? For all we know, Apophis decided "yes, this plan is going to fall flat" for solid reasons that one tok'ra spy wasn't aware of.
Apophis on the other hand had at best mediocre forces at his command, was a minor player that didn't even get the other System Lords to support his attack on Earth way back in Season 1, and when he stepped into Sokar's shoes, he didn't defeat the System Lords or even try, not even after absorbing the forces of Heru-er, the most powerful of the System Lords at that time.
By season 4, Apophis inherited all the forces of Sokar (sans one mothership) and later, all those of Heru-Ur. By default, he was every bit as powerful as Sokar. He chose not to move swiftly, so what?

Remember, Sokar was bringing the timetable to attack the System Lords forward, over his officers' objections - for all we know, he was not ready any more than Apophis was for war.
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Post by Revy »

NecronLord wrote:So? For all we know, Apophis decided "yes, this plan is going to fall flat" for solid reasons that one tok'ra spy wasn't aware of.
One Tok'ra spy whose information was considered so vital that they risked the lives of a whole team of people to rescue him and learn what he knew. Oh yes, I can just picture it ...

"Guess what? You almost all died back there to get me out, but it turns out I don't know jack shit after all. Hey, I've only had a thousand years practice at this sort of thing, cut me some slack ..."

And again, that the entire Tok'ra high council took so seriously when they learned of it, that they were willing to sacrifice the lives of Selmac and SG1 just to kill Sokar and stop him.
By season 4, Apophis inherited all the forces of Sokar (sans one mothership) and later, all those of Heru-Ur. By default, he was every bit as powerful as Sokar. He chose not to move swiftly, so what?
So what? So everyone who knew Sokar and knew his plan believed he could have won so much that they were willing to risk everything to stop him. And then Apophis takes over, and even ends up adding more territory and ships and men and resources to what is already the largest force in the Goa'uld domain, and he does jack shit with it. What does that tell us? That Apophis is cautious? Or that he just doesnt have the brains or the balls to pull off something so daring and big? Maybe both, but I'd still rate Sokar higher.
Remember, Sokar was bringing the timetable to attack the System Lords forward, over his officers' objections - for all we know, he was not ready any more than Apophis was for war.
If Selmac and the Tok'ra high council genuinely believed that to be the case, then one would think they would not risk killing SG1 and one of their top operatives, AND angering the most dangerous Goa'uld around, by trying to kill him and stop his plans. Not if they though it likely that he was going to fail and get his ass kicked. Hell, if there was a good chance that Sokar was doomed to fail in his attack, the Tok'ra (who are slow to take definitive action as O'Neill complains) would only be too happy to sit back and watch the fireworks. Why not let the most powerful Goa'ulds knock the crap out of each other, diminishing the forces of both the most powerful group and individual, as a result? It'd make their job a lot easier.

But no. They didnt do that. They seriously considered that Sokar had a shot, that he could and would win, and that this would be a very, very bad thing. So they sent one of their agents on a desperate mission to kill him before that could happen, at great risk. It paid off, because they killed Sokar, and his vast armada was taken up by a panzy who didn't have the stones to make a move, not even when he got his forces bolstered by the second largest Goa'uld army in the galaxy. Smart? If he was smart he would have defeated the Goa'uld and then turned his attention to the Tok'ra and Earth. His delay ultimately led to the destrcution of a large chunk of his fleet and of course, his death.

Bottom line - even before all this went down Apophis was a two bit nobody that got his ass kicked by even an early-days SGC. Sokar on the other hand rose to the top, was touted as worse than everyone else, was feared even by the Asgard, actually attained a force greater than the combined might of the System Lords, let alone Apophis, and when he went up against the SGC they only survived by submitting to him and giving up Apophis. In the end, it took a desperate last minute bomb cast by the Tok'ra to take him down. Apophis? Even after gaining such a vast military force, did bugger all with it, and ultimately allowed SG1 to play him like a twat, and then got killed.

Sure, go ahead and say Apophis was just as capable as Sokar. Just don't expect me to buy it.
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Post by FireNexus »

Revy wrote:
NecronLord wrote:So? For all we know, Apophis decided "yes, this plan is going to fall flat" for solid reasons that one tok'ra spy wasn't aware of.
One Tok'ra spy whose information was considered so vital that they risked the lives of a whole team of people to rescue him and learn what he knew. Oh yes, I can just picture it ...
So because the Tok'ra considered the information he had vital, he must be infallible? His words must be 100% accurate?
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Post by FireNexus »

Ghetto Edit: Revy, your position is entirely based on the idea that the Tok'ra don't make mistakes, or couldn't have been incorrect. Your assumption is baseless and without it there is scant evidence that Sokar would certainly have throttled the other system lords so completely.
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Post by Revy »

FireNexus wrote:So because the Tok'ra considered the information he had vital, he must be infallible? His words must be 100% accurate?
*sigh* Did I say that? The Tok'ra used their own judgement and intelligence, weighed up what he said, considered the source, considered what they knew about Sokar, quite probably compiled this report with other intelligence data collected, and then made a judgement call. The fact that they heard Selmacs report and seriously considered that he was right and that Sokar would win, speaks volumes. Again, as I said, the Tok'ra love being passive. If they thought they could sit on their asses and let the Goa'uld punch each other up, and then mop up the pieces, they would. For them to get off their asses and be proactive to the point of trying to blow Sokar up, only shows how desperate they were to stop him, and how seriously they took Selmacs report.

For christ sake, when the writers of the show make every effort to tell us that 'Hey, this is a problem here, fate of the galaxy hangs in the balance' I can only shake my head in wonder when people feel inclined to think the complete opposite - that Sokar probably stood no chance, that he was going to fail, and that all the drama and impending doom the episode hammed up was complete BS. Great. Good to see the writers got their message across loud and clear.
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Post by Revy »

FireNexus wrote:Ghetto Edit: Revy, your position is entirely based on the idea that the Tok'ra don't make mistakes, or couldn't have been incorrect. Your assumption is baseless and without it there is scant evidence that Sokar would certainly have throttled the other system lords so completely.
And your position is based on the equally baseless assumption that they were wrong. There is no evidence that they were in this instance.

I am *NOT*, I repeat *FUCKING NOT* saying the Tok'ra are infallible, or flawless, or all knowing. Christ. Just no. What I *AM* saying is that we should at least give them *some* credit and not write them off completely when they go into a panic and believe that the alien warlord, who happens to outnumber the *combined* might of the System Lords 10 to 1, *might* just happen to win and screw everyone over. Is that so bloody unreasonable? Or is everyone so determined to say the Tok'ra are dipshits that dont know what they are talking about and were foolish to think that a Goa'uld outcast touted as the worst of the worst, who outnumbered his intended target and is considered by the Supreme Commander of the Asgard Fleet to be a genuine threat, might happen to do what he has set out to accomplish?

Yes, I see now, the Tok'ra really were morons for assuming that, under such circumstances, Sokar stood any chance of winning. Silly me.
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Post by FireNexus »

Suspension of disbelief is the key. Don't assume the writers exist, take the world at face value.

So, now that you're done essentially ignoring my post: Besides baselessly assuming the Tok'ra were correct, where is your evidence?
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Post by Revy »

*shakes head*

Never mind. Forget I said anything. I drop the issue.
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Post by FireNexus »

First, ignore my earlier post. Your second one appeared after I posted it.
Revy wrote:And your position is based on the equally baseless assumption that they were wrong. There is no evidence that they were in this instance.
I in no way assume that they were wrong. Where did I say they were wrong? I'm pointing out that it isn't clear one way or the other. Even if they were right, there are any number of legitimate reasons for Apophis not to have gone through with the plan. You are in no position to assume that Apophis is less of a threat given the evidence, because it's insufficient to make that determination.

You assume that the Tok'ra were right that he would completely curbstomp the rest of them and be able to rule the galaxy after that. Maybe he could destroy the other system lords, but not be able to maintain control, and Apophis saw that? Or maybe Apophis' new Jaffa weren't quite loyal enough to him to make the plan succeed?
Revy wrote:I am *NOT*, I repeat *FUCKING NOT* saying the Tok'ra are infallible, or flawless, or all knowing. Christ. Just no. What I *AM* saying is that we should at least give them *some* credit and not write them off completely when they go into a panic and believe that the alien warlord, who happens to outnumber the *combined* might of the System Lords 10 to 1, *might* just happen to win and screw everyone over. Is that so bloody unreasonable? Or is everyone so determined to say the Tok'ra are dipshits that dont know what they are talking about and were foolish to think that a Goa'uld outcast touted as the worst of the worst, who outnumbered his intended target and is considered by the Supreme Commander of the Asgard Fleet to be a genuine threat, might happen to do what he has set out to accomplish?
10 to 1? Source? I don't remember that from the episode.

Anyway, I'm not completely writing them off, but I'm not masturbating over their fear of Sokar like you seem to be.

Finally, (spoilers for continuum follow) Apophis was the last of the system lords to be able to stand against a badass Ba'al, with Ancient upgrades and all, in continuum, so he's not the low rent dipshit you think he is.
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Post by Revy »

FireNexus wrote:Even if they were right, there are any number of legitimate reasons for Apophis not to have gone through with the plan. You are in no position to assume that Apophis is less of a threat given the evidence, because it's insufficient to make that determination.
You're right. I admit that I'm letting my personal disslike of Apophis in particular colour my opinion, and I shouldn't be.
You assume that the Tok'ra were right that he would completely curbstomp the rest of them and be able to rule the galaxy after that. Maybe he could destroy the other system lords, but not be able to maintain control, and Apophis saw that? Or maybe Apophis' new Jaffa weren't quite loyal enough to him to make the plan succeed?
That is entirely possible. It makes sense that his Jaffa army might not be as willing to follow him into an all out attack against the rest of the galaxy, especially now I think of it, how some of his Jaffa were voicing their doubts about him in the S5 episode Enemies (the one where Teal'c got brainwashed).
10 to 1? Source? I don't remember that from the episode.
The Tok'ra told SG1 before setting off to rescue Selmac that they believed Sokar was planning an attack on the System Lords, and that he might succeed. Then Selmac informs them that Sokar's fleet was ten times greater than they previously thought. This doesn't exactly prove that he outnumbered them 10 to 1, and I again have to admit that it relies on the Tok'ra being accurate. I think they were in this case, but I admit I cant conclusively prove it.
Anyway, I'm not completely writing them off, but I'm not masturbating over their fear of Sokar like you seem to be.
Sorry, again this is my personal preferrence getting in the way of logic. I liked Sokar and dissliked Apophis, and I shouldn't let that influence an attempt to analyse something objectively.
Finally, (spoilers for continuum follow)
Yeah, well that film has plot holes big enough to drive a tank through, and that particular scene probably had them chose Apophis for the symbolic image of Teal'cs former master being defeated by his new one. The fact that he was the last to be executed could mean anything. It might simply show that he went into hiding and survived longer because the rest either bowed to Ba'al or died fighting him. Besides, we know that Ba'al was willing to destroy an entire star system rather than lose to Sokar. For all we know Sokar was *in* that star system this time.

Anyway, I admit I've been scewing the scales a bit based on who I like and who I dont. I do genuinely believe the writers intended for Sokar to be more of a threat than Apophis, but it's difficult to prove that outright. In any case I, like them, feel that Sokar shouldn't have been killed off then, and that he would have made for a better villain. But I guess that's just me.
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Post by NecronLord »

While appealing to the Tok'ra's authority, remember, Apophis has been doing the galactic warlord thing for up to ten thousand years. And he was a major contributor to the coalition that defeated Sokar back in the day. There's no reason to assume Sokar's his strategic superior.

There are other reasons Apophis might have delayed too; perhaps he wanted a swifter war, with less damage, perhaps he instead focussed his resources on mitigating the Endor Holocaust going on over Delmak, and dealing with dissent in the ranks of his new followers.
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Post by Timotheus »

Revy wrote:
NecronLord wrote:So? For all we know, Apophis decided "yes, this plan is going to fall flat" for solid reasons that one tok'ra spy wasn't aware of.
One Tok'ra spy whose information was considered so vital that they risked the lives of a whole team of people to rescue him and learn what he knew. Oh yes, I can just picture it ...

"Guess what? You almost all died back there to get me out, but it turns out I don't know jack shit after all. Hey, I've only had a thousand years practice at this sort of thing, cut me some slack ..."

And again, that the entire Tok'ra high council took so seriously when they learned of it, that they were willing to sacrifice the lives of Selmac and SG1 just to kill Sokar and stop him.
By season 4, Apophis inherited all the forces of Sokar (sans one mothership) and later, all those of Heru-Ur. By default, he was every bit as powerful as Sokar. He chose not to move swiftly, so what?
So what? So everyone who knew Sokar and knew his plan believed he could have won so much that they were willing to risk everything to stop him. And then Apophis takes over, and even ends up adding more territory and ships and men and resources to what is already the largest force in the Goa'uld domain, and he does jack shit with it. What does that tell us? That Apophis is cautious? Or that he just doesnt have the brains or the balls to pull off something so daring and big? Maybe both, but I'd still rate Sokar higher.
Remember, Sokar was bringing the timetable to attack the System Lords forward, over his officers' objections - for all we know, he was not ready any more than Apophis was for war.
If Selmac and the Tok'ra high council genuinely believed that to be the case, then one would think they would not risk killing SG1 and one of their top operatives, AND angering the most dangerous Goa'uld around, by trying to kill him and stop his plans. Not if they though it likely that he was going to fail and get his ass kicked. Hell, if there was a good chance that Sokar was doomed to fail in his attack, the Tok'ra (who are slow to take definitive action as O'Neill complains) would only be too happy to sit back and watch the fireworks. Why not let the most powerful Goa'ulds knock the crap out of each other, diminishing the forces of both the most powerful group and individual, as a result? It'd make their job a lot easier.

But no. They didnt do that. They seriously considered that Sokar had a shot, that he could and would win, and that this would be a very, very bad thing. So they sent one of their agents on a desperate mission to kill him before that could happen, at great risk. It paid off, because they killed Sokar, and his vast armada was taken up by a panzy who didn't have the stones to make a move, not even when he got his forces bolstered by the second largest Goa'uld army in the galaxy. Smart? If he was smart he would have defeated the Goa'uld and then turned his attention to the Tok'ra and Earth. His delay ultimately led to the destrcution of a large chunk of his fleet and of course, his death.

Bottom line - even before all this went down Apophis was a two bit nobody that got his ass kicked by even an early-days SGC. Sokar on the other hand rose to the top, was touted as worse than everyone else, was feared even by the Asgard, actually attained a force greater than the combined might of the System Lords, let alone Apophis, and when he went up against the SGC they only survived by submitting to him and giving up Apophis. In the end, it took a desperate last minute bomb cast by the Tok'ra to take him down. Apophis? Even after gaining such a vast military force, did bugger all with it, and ultimately allowed SG1 to play him like a twat, and then got killed.

Sure, go ahead and say Apophis was just as capable as Sokar. Just don't expect me to buy it.

You are basing a whole lot on the Tok'ra who overall were the most incompetent morons the glaxy as ever seen. They lied and misrepresented to their allies constantly. Fucked up the most basic plans and let spies walk in their door so often you have to wonder they lasted a week much less a thousand years.
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Post by Big Orange »

NecronLord wrote: There are other reasons Apophis might have delayed too; perhaps he wanted a swifter war, with less damage, perhaps he instead focussed his resources on mitigating the Endor Holocaust going on over Delmak, and dealing with dissent in the ranks of his new followers.
I agree that Apophis not doing much with the vast military machine he 'inherited' from Sokar for over a year would mainly be to do with internal political consolidation among his new Jaffa troops that served Sokar and fought against Apophis not so long ago (later on in S3, Apophis sent out Jaffa soldiers that still had Sokar's star shaped seal on their foreheads and not the serpent shaped seal that is associated with Apohis' original Jaffa force, later issued to Sokar's Jaffa in S4).

He just had a different game plan to Sokar and seemed to going after the Tok'Ra and SGC more so than Sokar perhaps would, but Apophis was pouring Delmak resources two building two (or more) unconventional Ha'tak warships that were miles across in size and were almost as powerful as Anubis' Executor style Mega Ha'tak seen in Seasons 6 & 7.

Anubis may have deposed Sokar through subversion or/and betrayal, but how would he directly military challange the new Supreme System Lord? Sokar was Supreme System Lord before and needed to ousted by an alliance of other Goa'uld leaders (as was Anubis, maybe before or after).
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Revy wrote:
FireNexus wrote: who happens to outnumber the *combined* might of the System Lords 10 to 1, .
Ugh no. All Selmak said was that his fleet was ten times greater then previously believed. At no point did the Tokra state that his fleet was equal to that of the System Lords prior to this revelation. He could have been benefiting from the divided nature of the System Lords like in the case of Apophis and actually had a smaller fleet than the combined SLs.

As for Apophis, his priorities were wholly different. He was out to punish Chulak for rising against him and later on he was looking for his human son. Hell for all we know a large number of his forces on Delmak could have been destroyed when Netu exploded.
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Post by Big Orange »

I would say Sokar's Ha'tak fleet was bigger than any Ha'tak fleet belonging to an individual System Lord, but not bigger than the rest of the Goa'uld Empire's fleet combined, yet it would be meaty enough overwhelm the fiefdoms of key System Lords which then topples the rest of the Goa'uld Empire into chaos.

I would say Natu's destruction would not destroy Sokar's grounded forces on Delmak (since Sokar's futuristic capital seemed unaffected; it was even used by Ba'al and Anubis roughly half a decade later, even after Cronus' stolen flagship crashed into Delmak, turning Apophis into a smear of marmalade).
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Post by NecronLord »

Big Orange wrote:I would say Natu's destruction would not destroy Sokar's grounded forces on Delmak (since Sokar's futuristic capital seemed unaffected; it was even used by Ba'al and Anubis roughly half a decade later,
Err. You do realise that unless Apophis put Netu back together, that's a different planet, with a city that happens to follow the same pattern, right?
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Big Orange
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Post by Big Orange »

NecronLord wrote: Err. You do realise that unless Apophis put Netu back together, that's a different planet, with a city that happens to follow the same pattern, right?
I forgot about that, alongside with my annoying grammar calamities in the second and third paragraphs of my second post. :P

Well the production crew obviously reused the Delmak skyline in this scene from Season Eight to depict Anubis and Ba'al's headquarters, that was of course first used in this scene that introduced Sokar in person. Whether it was Delmak or not in the first clip, that orange(ish) volcanic moon hanging in the reddish sky was still pretty much a minor blooper (unless Anubis liked making hell moons as well). But in Season Five, Delmak was more or less still in action as a big industrial centre for Apophis, if the SG-1 team were frightened of the Replicators of invading the place and using it as a springboard to take over the Milky Way.

I'm pretty sure that Sokar was in some ways more dangerous than Apophis ever was, even after Apophis took over Sokar's realm, and I wonder how Anubis would make his own bid for power, when he didn't rear his ugly head until Apophis (then the biggest kid on the block around S4) and two other important System Lords were killed within the space of a few months.
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