Geneseed removal and conditions of removal

[PainRack]

Here's a question. Its a standard motif that Space marine apothecaries remove geneseed when Space Marines die on the battlefield and the inability of Space marines to secure those geneseed can lead to the extinction of a chapter.

So....... is there any reason for not removing both geneseed earlier in their career, before his death? Why risk the loss of a geneseed of a veteran space marine of 30 years? While the neck geneseed has been said to be removed after maturation, why not remove both?

[Invictus ChiKen]

I think I read somewhere the two geneseeds take 5 and 10 years to mature. So many removed on the field of battle are newly matured. If a marine survives 5 then 10 years there surgically removed.

Varies by chapter however.

[Azazal]

Redundancy is why it stays

The first gland is removed just after the marine is a full fledges marine, what was given to the marine by the chapter is returned if you will. The second gland stays with the marine to be harvested later, which makes sense in both the time of the crusade and in the current 40K time frame. If for some reason the chapter/legion's home base stock of gene seed were lost or corrupted, every current marine can give rise to a new battle brother, as such the chapter is not destroyed by 1 mishap. Also, while not covered in the HH series books, I do wonder if the legions took recruits form recently liberated worlds, and with plenty of gene seed on hand, send the recuits back to a training center would be unneeded. The recruit can be augmented and trained on the fleet and be ready fro the next fight if needed, which would be an interesting aspect to follow in one of the books, have a fresh recruit join the Night Lords or Iron Warriors and watch the legion fall from within, instead of all of the current used plot of older vets watching the rot spread.

[PainRack]

Redundancy is why it stays

The first gland is removed just after the marine is a full fledges marine, what was given to the marine by the chapter is returned if you will. The second gland stays with the marine to be harvested later, which makes sense in both the time of the crusade and in the current 40K time frame. If for some reason the chapter/legion's home base stock of gene seed were lost or corrupted, every current marine can give rise to a new battle brother, as such the chapter is not destroyed by 1 mishap. Also, while not covered in the HH series books, I do wonder if the legions took recruits form recently liberated worlds, and with plenty of gene seed on hand, send the recuits back to a training center would be unneeded. The recruit can be augmented and trained on the fleet and be ready fro the next fight if needed, which would be an interesting aspect to follow in one of the books, have a fresh recruit join the Night Lords or Iron Warriors and watch the legion fall from within, instead of all of the current used plot of older vets watching the rot spread.

You see...... the non-removal of the second geneseed is what bothers me. WHich is more likely? The fact that te Monastary falls and they lose all their geneseed, or the fact that a significant portion of the SM falls in battle?

Its not as if SM training results in a 100% passing rate. Depending on the Chapter, a portion of recruits would fail and in such conditions where its unable or unsuitable for the recovery of the geneseed. It would simply make more sense to recover both geneseed as soon as its matured. At most, one would leave a few companies of SM with the chest geneseed intact to act as an emergency living reserve.

[Bedlam]

I've always assumed that mostly the removal is largely symbolic and that most of the Geneseed is produced via the implant a modified slave and wait method. The chapters dont talk about it much as its rather a hit to their honor that they need to use that method to produce enought and that the 'leave no man behind' method of extraction make the battle brothers feel better and produces a feeling of contanuity in the chapter.

[[R_H]]

Do Space Marine rank and file know that large scale production of Geneseed is done by implanting it in brain-dead slaves? Or are they blissfully unaware of that?

[Lord Revan]

Do Space Marine rank and file know that large scale production of Geneseed is done by implanting it in brain-dead slaves? Or are they blissfully unaware of that?

varies from chapter to chapter I think, something like the Blood Ravens would probably know where as something like Space Wolves or Black Templars probably not.

[[R_H]]

Do Space Marine rank and file know that large scale production of Geneseed is done by implanting it in brain-dead slaves? Or are they blissfully unaware of that?

varies from chapter to chapter I think, something like the Blood Ravens would probably know where as something like Space Wolves or Black Templars probably not.

Ok. I guess it wouldn't be too great for morale. Marine1:"My geneseed came from _____(heroic Marine)." Marine2:"Cool! Mine, uh, came from a brain dead slave the cogboys use to grow more geneseed."

[loomer]

It probably varies from chapter to chapter in just how many of them are from the servitors. Space Wolves and the Black Templars, to use a previous example, probably have little to no need for it.

[Lord Revan]

Do Space Marine rank and file know that large scale production of Geneseed is done by implanting it in brain-dead slaves? Or are they blissfully unaware of that?

varies from chapter to chapter I think, something like the Blood Ravens would probably know where as something like Space Wolves or Black Templars probably not.

Ok. I guess it wouldn't be too great for morale. Marine1:"My geneseed came from _____(heroic Marine)." Marine2:"Cool! Mine, uh, came from a brain dead slave the cogboys use to grow more geneseed."

do marines even know who was the "previous owner" of the Geneseed, all times I've seen it "Our geneseed comes from the primarch, that all you need to know brother", thus totally eliminating the problem you just referred to.

[[R_H]]

Ok. I guess it wouldn't be too great for morale. Marine1:"My geneseed came from _____(heroic Marine)." Marine2:"Cool! Mine, uh, came from a brain dead slave the cogboys use to grow more geneseed."

do marines even know who was the "previous owner" of the Geneseed, all times I've seen it "Our geneseed comes from the primarch, that all you need to know brother", thus totally eliminating the problem you just referred to.[/quote]

I don't think so, but some venerate their armour's previous wearers.

[Bedlam]

I've never known a marine to mention any lineage which if they knew would be a marine type thing to do i.e. I hold the cells of Brother Captain Bob slayer of the Chaos lord Chuckles

[Connor MacLeod]

according to what fluff I have, the factors around removal of the gene seed are as follows:

- Gene seed is basically what they use to grow new organs from. Thus every organ has its own gene seed. This gene seed is "collected" by the implanted progenoid organs of a new space marine.

- once implaneted, the Progenoids need time to mature before they can be removed. The removal of the Geneseed in the throat can be accomplished after about 5 years (to allow for maturity.) For the chest progenoid it takes about 10 years.

- It is noted that there is nothing stopping it being removed from a living marine (They even mention it could be done, I believe, so long as it is mature.)

Given that, several possibilities occur:

- Not all Gene Seeds mature at the same rate. Some may mature faster, others slower. It may vary from Chapter to Chapter, from Primarch to Primarch, or even from individual marines (or any combination thereof.) Some Marines may take longer to mature.

- As an extension of above, its possible that they may leave the progenoids in longer to "alter/improve" them in some way (like any living thing, they may evolve/grow.) We do know that gene seed is subject to mutations (such as the fangs of the Space Wolves, the Rage of the Blood Angels, etc.) some mutations are bad, but seem also seem to impart special abilities to a specific chapter (EG the Soul Drinkers.). Leaving it in may somehow lead to increased "favorable" mutations (either imparrting more experience/memory, or some such.)

- Traditional/historical reasons. As I've noted in the past, Space Marines tend to be very history-oriented, and have great reverence for old shit in their Chapters. This presumbly includes Gene seed. This may mean that leaving gene-seed in a marine to allow it to "mature" is seen as favorable, or as a mark of respect, or some other non-logical reason, even if there is no tangible benefit to doing so.

In principle, yes, the progenoids should be removed when mature. Out of universe, I think it often isnt handled this way more because of the imagery evoked by the "gene-seed recovery" - its as iconic of space marines as their power armor and bolter is, so its probably something a Space Marine author cannot resist sticking in to say "Hey look, they're sure space marines!"

In universe, I'm guessing that most chapters probably do recover it once its mature, at least after some period of time. You can probably make up any excuse to explain the various "removal" procedures we see in fluff and novels, but I'm guessing those would be "extraordinary" cases (or could/shoudl be treated as such.)

[Bedlam]

- As an extension of above, its possible that they may leave the progenoids in longer to "alter/improve" them in some way (like any living thing, they may evolve/grow.) We do know that gene seed is subject to mutations (such as the fangs of the Space Wolves, the Rage of the Blood Angels, etc.) some mutations are bad, but seem also seem to impart special abilities to a specific chapter (EG the Soul Drinkers.). Leaving it in may somehow lead to increased "favorable" mutations (either imparrting more experience/memory, or some such.)

Thats an interesting idea, perhaps some sort of error checking mechanism. Cells from the other organs slowly migrate to the progenoids where their checked and if found lacking destroyed, the best ones are kept after each check.

Does it mention anywhere is the progenoids themselves are implanted or if they grow from the other implants? If their implanted themselves they might contain the checking mechanism, perhaps some sort ow womb to allow the other implants to start growing it a state they can be better checked.

[andrewgpaul]

IIRC, they're implanted. I think they're the second last implant, before the black carapace.

[Firethorn]

Any indications that one of the geneseed implants might grow back occasionally?

That would have you going after freshly mature geneseed, as it's still extraordinarily valuable, while giving you enough seed to account for loses from implant failures and irrecoverable casualties.