The weight of Terminators in T:SCC confirmed

[Thanas]

Since there have been longwinded discussions on the weight issues of Terminators, with Bubble Boy even claiming that there is an obvious intent of the writers to portray Terminators as ultra-heavy, I decided to settle the question one and for all and contacted Zack Stentz. Zack Stents of course is the co-producer of the show who has co-written "Dungeons and Dragons" as well as "Goodbye to all that".

Well, he replied one week ago, but I was unsure if I had his permission to quote him so I asked him for permission. After what must have been a very busy weak for him, he nevertheless found the energy to reply to me once again, even with a little clarification.

These are some messages we sent to each other. Since I cannot show you the messsages in full without revealing personal information about myself or him (including private contact details) and I promised not to do that, I am just going to quote the relevant parts. If an admin has some concerns about the veracity of my statements, he/she is more than willing to contact me via PM and I'll then ask Zack again.

Hi Zack.

How much more does a Terminator weigh than an average human?

Arguments I have heard included:
- Cameron and Cromartie must weigh hundreds of pounds more than the average human, due to them being able to lift the bodyweight of their human counterparts without even changing the body position for leverage and of course the "I do not swim" incident with Cromartie and Cameron.
- The counterargument starts with pointing out that an infiltrator unit weighing that much would defeat the very purpose of an infiltration unit. Cameron sat on a mattress without breaking the bed, Vick was able to live with his "wife" - who would have noticed the extra weight - and Cameron getting into a car without the suspension complaining. Plus in "Goodbye to all that", a massive T-888 was standing on a plan without breaking it.

I hope I have not bored you too much with what must be a somewhat nitpicking question. Cheers,
*Name withheld*

His first answer was:

Terminators in our world weigh only slightly more than similarly sized humans. They can't swim due to bouyancy issues, not weight. Otherwise you could just stand them on scales or put breakaway flooring at the front entrances to resistance bunkers!

Can I quote you on that? I wouldn't be asking for this if there wasn't this idiot running around on the board that claims to know the intention of the writers.

Of course, with Terminator getting renewed and the guys being in the middle of the production of new episodes, I didn't expect a quick reply on that. Well, today it came.

Zack,

since you have not replied I have decided not to post any part of the conversation about Terminators since it would be an enormous violation of trust without your authorization.

In any case, thank you for clearing that issue up in private.

Cheers,
*Name withheld*

*Name withheld*, sorry for not responding. Our operating assumption is that Terminators are a bit (10-20 percent) more than a person, but not much more. Feel free to repost that.

Zack

So I guess that should settle the question one and for all.

One final word: I am not becoming this boards message boy. Nor am I going to bother Zack with questions like "could cameron do X?". This was a one-off case due to the extreme importance in versus debates.

[Anguirus]

That's pretty much the conclusion I came to from watching the show, but it's good that someone's actually thought about it and is deliberately seeking consistency in this matter.

As for the leverage problem, it's pretty much the same in all super-strong human-sized robot media. Not much you can do about that without being unfaithful to the first Terminator.

[Thanas]

That's pretty much the conclusion I came to from watching the show, but it's good that someone's actually thought about it and is deliberately seeking consistency in this matter.

As for the leverage problem, it's pretty much the same in all super-strong human-sized robot media. Not much you can do about that without being unfaithful to the first Terminator.

One think that surprises me about the show is that whenever you see something, it is intentional and that they will tell you when its not in the podcast or blog. They are detail freaks and I love them for it.

[Braedley]

So this is essentially putting an upper bound of 200-220 lbs for Cameron (this is going beyond the 20% by a little bit). I was thinking about ways of rectifying the leverage issues by Cameron being able to move her own center of mass, but then I realized that the horizontal component wouldn't move all that much, and that's the component that determines if you'll fall over or not.

[Ariphaos]

They only need to be about 5% heavier in order to be unable to swim, really.

[Thanas]

So this is essentially putting an upper bound of 200-220 lbs for Cameron (this is going beyond the 20% by a little bit). I was thinking about ways of rectifying the leverage issues by Cameron being able to move her own center of mass, but then I realized that the horizontal component wouldn't move all that much, and that's the component that determines if you'll fall over or not.

How do you get that figure?

Summer Glau is 1.69 meters. With her looks, she cannot weigh more than 60/66 kilogramm since the average weight of a fit male of that height is about 70 kilos. So that gives us (using the 20% figure) an upper limit of 72/79,2 kilogramm. Which translates as 144/158,4 pounds. If we use the lower limit it would arrive at 66/72,6 kg or 132/145,2 pounds

I am willing to bet the answer is somewhere around 140 pounds. So where do you get the 220lbs from?

[Thanas]

Also note - my estimation of SG's weight basically assumes that she weighs only 5 kilos less than the average fit male of her height. I am willing to bet that she actually weighs much less.

[Sarevok]

So this is essentially putting an upper bound of 200-220 lbs for Cameron (this is going beyond the 20% by a little bit). I was thinking about ways of rectifying the leverage issues by Cameron being able to move her own center of mass, but then I realized that the horizontal component wouldn't move all that much, and that's the component that determines if you'll fall over or not.

One would expect someone with Cameron's build to be light as a feather. If she weighed like a 6 feet tall wrestler it would immediately draw attention. In the future where they are used to dealing with infiltrators the first thing they would do is search for an endoskeleton beneath the skin that is contributing the excess weight.

[Sarevok]

Ah Thanas posted before I did explaining it far better. But yes I am quite confused about the whole Terminator weight controversy. Why bother with such a marvelous fusion of man and machine to infiltrate human groups if a 10 dollar weight scale can tell them apart ?

Personally I would be just disturbed by the thought of a 200 pound Summer Glau. :d

[Braedley]

Okay, maybe 20% is still much too low for my figure. I guess I was going more towards 50%, which puts the original weight at 130-145lbs.

[Thanas]

Okay, maybe 20% is still much too low for my figure. I guess I was going more towards 50%, which puts the original weight at 130-145lbs.

Why do you feel the need to invent upper limits when the producer of the show has just told you that the upper limit does not exceed 20% at most and is most likely somewhere in the range between 10-20%?

Your upper limit is entirely bogus.

[Braedley]

I made a mistake. My fast math was a little too fast. I admitted it. Can we drop this now?

[Thanas]

^ Braedley, I am sorry. I completely misread your post. I thought you were arguing in favour of the 130-145 lbs.

Again, sorry for misreading your post.

[Singular Intellect]

Okay, maybe 20% is still much too low for my figure. I guess I was going more towards 50%, which puts the original weight at 130-145lbs.

Why do you feel the need to invent upper limits when the producer of the show has just told you that the upper limit does not exceed 20% at most and is most likely somewhere in the range between 10-20%?

Your upper limit is entirely bogus.

A higher limit can be argued based upon the necessary leverage for a Terminator to repeatedly lift people of normal mass in the manner in which they do.

The individual you quoted, even acknowledged as a authoritative figure over the subject, does not mean the physics of the analysis is wrong.

It merely means it's been pointed out what kind of evidence can be ignored in regards to Terminator feats that would require heavier mass as previously argued.

[Drooling Iguana]

Ah Thanas posted before I did explaining it far better. But yes I am quite confused about the whole Terminator weight controversy. Why bother with such a marvelous fusion of man and machine to infiltrate human groups if a 10 dollar weight scale can tell them apart ?

I think it stems from the fact that the commentary track for Terminator 3 directly stated that the T-850 and T-X were extremely heavy, and several incidents in the film supported this.

[Peptuck]

Ah Thanas posted before I did explaining it far better. But yes I am quite confused about the whole Terminator weight controversy. Why bother with such a marvelous fusion of man and machine to infiltrate human groups if a 10 dollar weight scale can tell them apart ?

I think it stems from the fact that the commentary track for Terminator 3 directly stated that the T-850 and T-X were extremely heavy, and several incidents in the film supported this.

There was no Terminator 3.

[Thanas]

A higher limit can be argued based upon the necessary leverage for a Terminator to repeatedly lift people of normal mass in the manner in which they do.

You have not yet made a single calculation on the subject.

The individual you quoted, even acknowledged as a authoritative figure over the subject, does not mean the physics of the analysis is wrong.

Of course not. How could it be when there has been no single calculation ever?

It merely means it's been pointed out what kind of evidence can be ignored in regards to Terminator feats that would require heavier mass as previously argued.

Sure. The only way to do that is to ignore evidence. Why don't you make some calculations, assume the upper limit of 140lbs and then show me how some of that is impossible, assuming her servos are of standard industrial strength?

[Singular Intellect]

A higher limit can be argued based upon the necessary leverage for a Terminator to repeatedly lift people of normal mass in the manner in which they do.

You have not yet made a single calculation on the subject.

One doesn't need a calculation to point out the ridiculously obvious...or do you demand a calculation to prove that a vehicle hitting the human body on a highway wouldn't impart a significant amount of damaging force?

The individual you quoted, even acknowledged as a authoritative figure over the subject, does not mean the physics of the analysis is wrong.

Of course not. How could it be when there has been no single calculation ever?

See above.

It merely means it's been pointed out what kind of evidence can be ignored in regards to Terminator feats that would require heavier mass as previously argued.

Sure. The only way to do that is to ignore evidence. Why don't you make some calculations, assume the upper limit of 140lbs and then show me how some of that is impossible, assuming her servos are of standard industrial strength?

I have a better idea; go stand next to a wall with your right shoulder and right foot in direct contact with it (with your left foot and shoulder away from it), then lift your left foot into the air and try to stay standing up.

Then get back to me about 'needing calculations' to prove leverage isn't important regarding strength. After all, you have an abundance of strength to support your own weight, right?

[Singular Intellect]

Since calculations were brought up, and might be a tad bit more convincing than just my say so...plus I had some free time.

Ok, here's my original image I decided to work with:



And here's the same image with my measurement references drawn in:



Dr Fleming is the human, and Cromartie is the Terminator; obviously, for those who saw this episode.

Lines 1 and 2 will show two possible frames of reference for Dr Fleming's center of mass. 1 is my best guess, and 2 seems to assume his head weighs as much as the rest of his body.

Line 3 is the fulcrum as indicated...the pivot point of leverage, which is going by Cromartie's toes on his right foot, which seems to line up with his shoulder enough that the difference between the two seems negligible.

Lines 4 and 5 show two possible frames of reference for Cromartie's center of mass. 4 is my best guess, 5 seems to assume that most of his body weight is in his left arm and leg.

As for Dr Fleming's weight, this isn't actually all that important, but let's guess around 150 pounds (68 kilograms).

So on to the simple math. Takes the shittiest possible numbers to make the Terminator as light as possible, which would be 2 and 5, respectively (the blue line). 2 is 36 pixels from the fulcrum, 5 is 15 pixels from the fulcrum. In other words, the shittiest possible result here is that Cromartie needs to weigh 2.4 times as much as Dr Fleming in order to meet equilibrium/balance (translation: not fall over).

Meaning if Dr Fleming weighs 150 pounds, Cromartie needs to weigh 360. If we assume a human of Cromartie's size and build weighs 250 pounds (my own weight here), that means he has 44% more body mass than his 'normal' human counterpart of 250 pounds.

And that's with the shittiest possible numbers attempting to prove a light Terminator, while at the same time ignoring things like Cromartie's own arm adding weight to Dr Fleming's side of the equation and Dr Fleming's struggles making him a non static load.

So let's go by my other numbers which are my best estimation of the realistic positions of center of mass, 1 and 4 respectively (the red line). 1 is 54 pixels from the fulcrum, 4 is...7. Meaning Cromartie has to weigh about 7.7 times as much as Dr Fleming in order to maintain equilibrium/balance. If Dr Fleming weighs 150 pounds, Cromartie needs to weigh...1,155 pounds.

And then some people wonder why scenes like these make people realize a Terminator may need to weigh a fuckload more than your average human to perform such feats; authoritive figures declaring otherwise a moot point.

[weemadando]

Thank your for crunching the numbers. It's a good breakdown of what most of us already knew.

[Sarevok]

Bubble boy :

There is still sound in space in Battlestar Galactica despite going as far as including newtonian physics. That does not mean the writers actually intended such a thing. You will never hear Adama complaining how loud Cylon Raiders can be. Superpowered beings performing feats that are physically inconsistent is a common style over substance fallacy in TV or movies. Are you going to argue that Peter Parker weighed a ton too for sending a kid flying with a push in the first movie ? Or how about every single person saved by last second dramatic catch while falling from great height in any movie or tv show ? Are they made of unobtanium too ?

[Anguirus]

^ Are you actually getting snippy over this?

Bubble Boy did the calculations that he was asked to supply. Frankly, I figured that the leverage was way off anyway. The only possible conclusions are massive Terminators or handwavy violation of physics. At least we can now be pretty sure that the answer is #2.

[Napoleon the Clown]

What amount of impact on balance could a gyroscope realistically have on the mass a terminator would need to possess to do things such as lifting someone as shown in Bubble Boy's scene? How far into the realm of ridiculous does one need to get to keep the mass of the terminators at the 10-20% and still obey the laws of physics when people are lifted as shown? If a Segway can remain balanced even when an adult male leans forward on it, I see no reason one can't help terminators do extreme lifting without face planting.

[Braedley]

In theory, it's possible, but now is not the time for me to go through the math. Suffice it to say that it's highly unlikely to be practical. Also, the physics at work in a Segway rely on the fact that it's actually moving, and thus, the gyroscopes need only be large enough to act as sensors (they simply measure angles). They're not being used to exert a force on a stationary object. In fact, I don't even know if it's a set of gyroscopes in them at all. It may just be a set of accelerometers.

[Winston Blake]

Here's a crazy idea - could there be climbing spikes that extend out the feet of a Terminator when necessary? That could hold down the rear foot of the Terminator in the above pictures. I suppose ideally they'd stick out forward and down, out the ball of the foot.