Doctor Who "The End of Time Part 2" [spoilers]

[NecronLord]

Discussion for this episode.

[Gramzamber]

Okay, I have 3 words.

Fuck you RTD.

That is all.

[Jon]

Awful.

[Gramzamber]

Hey guys remember when the 9th Doctor shed a tear at the mere mention of his people as he was reminded about the truly horrible thing he had to do to stop the Daleks?
Well he was just being a pissy idiot obviously since the Time Lords were EVIL tossers who needed to die too!

[Bounty]

It was everything I expected it to be.

Still, new Doctor looks good. And we have a reason for a new TARDIS interior. Come on, Moffat, don't let us down!

[Crazy_Vasey]

Thank God that's over. If I never see Tennant's kicked puppy look ever again, it'll be too soon.

[Coaan]

That kind of felt like being completely ball-punched for an hour and fifteen minutes.

Utter shite. It makes Journey's end actually look good.

[Jon]

I just don't understand how he writes such tripe, time and again. And that it gets produced. Thank fuck he's finished.

[NecronLord]

Personally, I didn't think it was that bad. But then, I knew that the Time Lords were going to be evil going into it, from watching Confidential. With that said, their 'evil' was clichéd. Ascension, seriously?

The ending, here, however, was not a trite Deus Ex Machina.

The awful indulgent montage at the end had me screaming at the screen for him to just die already. I would have preferred him to die early on, and then Matt Smith go around doing that montage. Ending with the new TARDIS interior.

[Thanas]

I can't believe I reconfigured my satellite for this.

Bets on when BO will arrive and start telling us in his faux-eloquent manner that "while the special had some problems, it still was better than/had some great moment"?

[NecronLord]

Hey guys remember when the 9th Doctor shed a tear at the mere mention of his people as he was reminded about the truly horrible thing he had to do to stop the Daleks?
Well he was just being a pissy idiot obviously since the Time Lords were EVIL tossers who needed to die too!

You're an American right?

If America became SUPER-NAZI and you had to blow it up to save the world, are you telling me you wouldn't feel bad about it afterwards, even though they were SUPER-NAZIs?

[Gramzamber]

I just don't understand how he writes such tripe, time and again. And that it gets produced. Thank fuck he's finished.

Seems to me like a Berman & Braga style final "fuck you" to the fans. Like "Oh hey I haven't ruined the Time Lords yet, kiss my arse wankers!"

The ending, here, however, was not a trite Deus Ex Machina.

It was arguably worse however. Hey, bonehead Time Lords! How about securing the fragile little device that's maintaining your existance!

[NecronLord]

It was arguably worse however. Hey, bonehead Time Lords! How about securing the fragile little device that's maintaining your existance!

Have you seen the old series? The Time Lords are... well, not effective fighters.

I was however screaming for Rassilon (who was always a total tosser, mind you) to just burn the pair of them down. But gloating villainy is very much his style.

[NecronLord]

For anyone interested in the new series, www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/ has a preview up.

[Gramzamber]

You're an American right?

If America became SUPER-NAZI and you had to blow it up to save the world, are you telling me you wouldn't feel bad about it afterwards, even though they were SUPER-NAZIs?

No, British actually. But in any case. Sure I'd feel bad. But my point is from then till now what the Doctor did has always been something he had to do for the greater good, for the Daleks to lose his people had to as well. Now suddenly his people were as bad if not worse than the Daleks and make super-Nazis look like carebears.
For me it takes all the pain and anguish of the Doctor and turns it into a complete farce.

I mean I know Time Lords could always be tossers but this is just.. cartoon villiany, not helped by the fact that they appear and are resolved in a quarter of the episode.

Have you seen the old series? The Time Lords are... well, not effective fighters.

I was however screaming for Rassilon (who was always a total tosser, mind you) to just burn the pair of them down. But gloating villainy is very much his style.

Yeah but then I'm no great strategist either, and I could see it.

[NecronLord]

No, British actually. But in any case. Sure I'd feel bad. But my point is from then till now what the Doctor did has always been something he had to do for the greater good, for the Daleks to lose his people had to as well. Now suddenly his people were as bad if not worse than the Daleks and make super-Nazis look like carebears.
For me it takes all the pain and anguish of the Doctor and turns it into a complete farce.

Definitely not worse. They planned to push the stop button on the universe, or whatever. The Daleks like to enslave and torture people before killing them.

And let's remember that the Doctor is a total nutter who regularly confronts armies without a weapon. Doubtless purging his own people would affect him more than you. I see no reason to find it odd that he'd idealise them after the fact. He likes the fucking Master, for crying out loud.

I mean I know Time Lords could always be tossers but this is just.. cartoon villiany, not helped by the fact that they appear and are resolved in a quarter of the episode.

Doctor Who has always had cartoon villains.

Yeah but then I'm no great strategist either, and I could see it.

Eh. Supposedly killing the Master would break the spel- err, system. And he probably has no particular emnity to the Doctor. Even assuming a popgun would affect him (and what with the stated capabilities of the Sash of Rassilon in the old series, I doubt it) not burning down the Doctor in the first opportunity is a fault shared by almost every single bad guy.

[Bounty]

For anyone interested in the new series, http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/ has a preview up.

Only for Brits. Someone Youtube that shit ASAP!

[DaveJB]

Okay, I can understand that the circumstances of the regeneration were perhaps a bit more "Doctor-ish" than the obvious alternative of just having James Rassilon burn the Doctor to a crisp with his magic glove, but... that doesn't make it good drama!

Had this just been a normal season finale or Christmas Special it would actually have been decent enough, but the ending with the world's longest regeneration sequence and the "RTD's Greatest Hits" montage soured the taste for me.

[NecronLord]

Okay, I can understand that the circumstances of the regeneration were perhaps a bit more "Doctor-ish" than the obvious alternative of just having James Rassilon burn the Doctor to a crisp with his magic glove, but... that doesn't make it good drama!

It's fairly obvious that there'd be no regeneration from being killed by what I'm calling the Gauntlet of Rassilon. Witness the Time Lady in the opener. Time Lord weapons have always killed Time Lords dead when desired, for obvious reasons.

Frankly, I found him dying for Wilf pleasant and heroic.

Had this just been a normal season finale or Christmas Special it would actually have been decent enough, but the ending with the world's longest regeneration sequence and the "RTD's Greatest Hits" montage soured the taste for me.

Yes, the montage was annoying. If he had to do it, I'd rather have seen it done with Matt Smith to 'establish' the new Doctor.

[Gramzamber]

Definitely not worse. They planned to push the stop button on the universe, or whatever. The Daleks like to enslave and torture people before killing them.

According to the Doctor the Time Lords would bring a myriad of nightmarish creatures and worlds back with them that would probably do a fair bit of enslaving and torturing before all time stopped which is what the Daleks were going to do more or less anyway.
And they were also going to bash Earth out of orbit. Yay.

And let's remember that the Doctor is a total nutter who regularly confronts armies without a weapon. Doubtless purging his own people would affect him more than you. I see no reason to find it odd that he'd idealise them after the fact. He likes the fucking Master, for crying out loud.

He likes the Master but he's never idealised him. He's never gone "Oh the Master? Great guy." He'll call him a genius to his face, but that's about it.

Doctor Who has always had cartoon villains.

Yes but bringing back the Time Lords after all this time just for a quarter-episode of cartoon villiany... RTD sucks.

Eh. Supposedly killing the Master would break the spel- err, system. And he probably has no particular emnity to the Doctor. Even assuming a popgun would affect him (and what with the stated capabilities of the Sash of Rassilon in the old series, I doubt it) not burning down the Doctor in the first opportunity is a fault shared by almost every single bad guy.

[/quote][/quote]

Rasillon was clearly counting on the fact that the Doctor didn't want his final act to be killing someone but couldn't see that the Doctor had an easy way out in shooting up the machine? Bollocks is what it is.

[NecronLord]

According to the Doctor the Time Lords would bring a myriad of nightmarish creatures and worlds back with them that would probably do a fair bit of enslaving and torturing before all time stopped which is what the Daleks were going to do more or less anyway.
And they were also going to bash Earth out of orbit. Yay.

And the Time Lords are responsible for the Daleks... only in that they sent the Doctor to eliminate them...

He likes the Master but he's never idealised him. He's never gone "Oh the Master? Great guy." He'll call him a genius to his face, but that's about it.

Actually, he's been very friendly to the Master on occasion, I am specifically thinking of things like 'He's my best enemy' *BIG SMILE* in The Five Doctors

Yes but bringing back the Time Lords after all this time just for a quarter-episode of cartoon villiany... RTD sucks.

Yes, I would have preferred good Time Lords. But eh, we weren't going to get that. And frankly, the Time Lords were canonically monsters the last time we saw them too. They made an Evil Doctor and exterminated the Earth to keep their embarrassing secrets secret. That High Council was supposedly deposed, but even then, their previous president Borusa was a murderer, before chief dickhead Rassilon condemned him to eternal imprisonment as a piece of wall art.

Rasillon was clearly counting on the fact that the Doctor didn't want his final act to be killing someone but couldn't see that the Doctor had an easy way out in shooting up the machine? Bollocks is what it is.

How was he to know that the machine would be so easily disabled?

[Captain Seafort]

Right, my views on this thing.

Most of it was pretty good, up to the Time Lords and Gallifrey turning up.

In the end, however, what could have been a great way to reset things, reverse the effects of the Time War, and remove the tendency to resurrect Daleks every other episode only to have them wiped out again (which they did once too often last time), made things worse. I can now foresee not only the Daleks, but the Time Lords themselves turning up every other season, only to be wiped out and then brought back over and over again. There is no bloody point in wiping out a major enemy if it's so obvious that they'll be brought back in the near future.

What the hell was Rassilon doing wandering around in the flesh? I can sort of see the Time Lords wanting to King Arthur him back to lead them in the war, but why would Rassilon want to come back? I seem to recall him being quite happy with his immortality in the tower, snacking on the occasional stupid egotist.

The entire regeneration was a shambles - up until the image of Ten lying in the plastic box, it was fine. Very TWoK-ish, and I was convinced that he would regenerate there and then. Instead he jumps up, dusts himself off, and goes gallivanting round the planet seeing what everyone's up to. Then, you have him collapse in the snow after seeing Rose, and think "now he's going to regenerate", but no, he gets up, goes into the Tardis, wanders round for a bit, and then regenerates, trashing the console room in the process. And he then has to go and strike the bloody "Official RTD-approved Regeneration Pose".

It's a pity, because with just a few tweaks it could have been great. Scrap all the stuff about the Time Lords turning into psychopath. Have the Master try and bring them back after he received the diamond so he could depose Lord President Bond and become ruler of Gallifrey and time itself. Big scrap, Master looses, but nicks a Tardis and bugs out. Gallifrey disappears to parts unknown, but remains "back" - you can leave the implications of the Time War being well and truly unlocked to later episodes. Wilf gets stuck in the box, so the Doctor does his Spock routine, collapses, and regenerates there and then. Alternately, if you want to keep the runaround with the companions for Tennant (which to be honest makes more sense if you're going to keep it), have the Time Lords thank the Doctor for helping bring them back, but point out that blowing up Gallifrey as he did the first time round isn't the done thing, so he's to be forced to regenerate. Do the runaround, Doctor returns to the Tardis and regenerates, cue Matt Smith. RTD would even get his Official Regeneration Pose one last time, since it would be a lot less irritating and more understandable if the regeneration was due to Time Lord intervention rather than severe injuries.

[El Moose Monstero]

That was such a colossal pile of shite.

I can't even begin to describe how unsatisfying that was.

I'd put the Stolen Earth and Journey's End above that in terms of quality, and those two I thought were awful, but hell, at least the plot was fairly solid, even if the circlejerkage got a bit extreme. Almost critic-proofily extreme.

The death was lacklustre, resolutions were unsatisfying, and what might be described as 'critic-proofily left open for future use' smacked of 'out of time, wrap it up in a hurry so we can get to my smug circlejerk at the end'. The end montage made me want to hit RTD with a brick... any drama or impact to the death was obliterated, and the whole thing just felt like RTD just giving himself a smug pat on the back and telling us how awesome he was and all the characters he invented were.

Bad fanfic is written better than that ending. The end of HP Book 7 was written better than that ending.

Jesus, I mean the whole wrap the end up in half an hour to leave half an hour for contrived montages and contrived excuses to set up the next guy - seriously, why fly off into space, why regenerate with explosives when Ecclestone absorbed the time vortex, not just some radiation (which I might add Tenant managed to expel radiation quite merrily in the Martha opener) and didn't even bat an eyelid. Rah!

I could sort of take the idea of the Time Lords becoming desperate enough to try something daft, but the way it went about was god awful and there was nothing to hint at 'timelords became evil', a full series and they could at least have maybe dropped it in the way russel t davis always does...maybe some random phrase... bad time...evil time... inappropriately distributed throughout. And what was the point in the master's multiple clones apart from 'oh ho john simm in drag teh funneh'. The drums in the head idea was sort of neat, but I think we'd all already figured that they'd configured the master for war anyway, I actually prefer the idea that the timelords harnessed someone they didn't fully understand rather than making him in the first place. Ugh...I could really go on. We watched them both back to back, and they both were as unsatisfying as the other. RTD did do some good stuff at first, and he brought back Doctor Who, before BO tells us about critically acclaimed and regenerating Doctor Who, but that really doesn't stop this lot from being a pile of total wank.

[Gramzamber]

And the Time Lords are responsible for the Daleks... only in that they sent the Doctor to eliminate them...

The Time Lords have done utterly dickish things, sure. And they may have in effect started the Time War by trying to wipe the Daleks out before they became a threat but this. This is a whole new level of "fuck the universe" assholery, which might work given enough time and context but we get neither.
It's all introduced and wrapped up at lightning speed. More time has been devoted to the 10th Doctor's constant insipid brooding about his impending death than to the Time Lord's return and Rassilon's motivations!

Actually, he's been very friendly to the Master on occasion, I am specifically thinking of things like 'He's my best enemy' *BIG SMILE* in The Five Doctors

Yes but that's hardly idealising in the manner of "the Master is a truly great man who brought order and stability to the universe" or some such.
I find myself reminded of the episode "Dalek" where the Doctor cuts loose verbally on that one Dalek. Between his "you killed my people!!" and "why don't you just die!" there was no "you! You turned my people into monsters!" or some such. That's the problem, it's never even been implied that the Time Lords needed removing.
And in my opinion this isn't how it should be. For me it vastly diminishes the drama when both sides are just downright evil. While they're still his people, it gives the Doctor more of an excuse to doom them too whereas dooming them because it was the only way to stop the time war always gave a dark and yet sympathetic aspect to the Doctor who sacrificed so much for the sake of the universe.

Yes, I would have preferred good Time Lords. But eh, we weren't going to get that. And frankly, the Time Lords were canonically monsters the last time we saw them too. They made an Evil Doctor and exterminated the Earth to keep their embarrassing secrets secret. That High Council was supposedly deposed, but even then, their previous president Borusa was a murderer, before chief dickhead Rassilon condemned him to eternal imprisonment as a piece of wall art.

Well, like I said, even if we have to have "evil" Time Lords, introducing them then kicking them out in the same episode is criminal.
You could write an entire season's worth of stories concerning this culminating in the grand finale of Gallifrey's return for better or worse.

How was he to know that the machine would be so easily disabled?

Well it's a human made piece of junk on stilts, he should take a guess.

Edit: As an aside, in the brief time Gallifrey existed in the universe again, what's to stop some Time Lords who aren't complete jelly-heads under Rassilon's thumb from hopping on their TARDISes and legging it to the end of the universe ala the Master? Future storyline perhaps?

[Glimmervoid]

I’m conflicted. There were parts that I liked and parts that I didn’t.

The Evil Time Lords I’m not that bothered about (they were never ‘nice’ by our standards – there’s a reason the Doctor is doing his own thing after all – and have been out and out evil before). However, despite that, something did not sit right with me. I’m not sure what is was but the episode almost did not seem to ‘slot’ together properly. That said, I actually liked the Time Lord bits.

Now on to the plot hook/mystery of the episode: who was the lady in white (the one who warned Wilfred and stood behind the Lord President). My moneys on the White Guardian (though he was male last time we saw him).