Na'vi and Free Will

[GrayAnderson]

An interesting point came up in a discussion about Avatar this evening: Do the Na'vi possess free will? For this question, I'm considering free will as both the ability to make a choice and the willpower to make it and follow through.

The question, I guess, is if it were in the interest of a given Na'vi, or a tribe of them, to do something contrary to the will of Eywa, could they? i.e. Is their reverence for the planet social, or is there a genetic factor involved as well, and if there is how strong is it? Note that I'm not suggesting that any such situation exists/existed in the film (or any attached material), but the question still comes to mind all the same. I'm reminded of the descolada in Speaker for the Dead, and I'm wondering if something similar might well be at play here in at least some regards.

A second point did come up with this, namely the idea that the avatar teams might have come down with a psychological dependence on their avatar bodies, etc. I would cite Jake's behavior in going through with the final ceremony...frankly, he lies about why he's going through with it, and while having fallen in love is almost definitely a factor (I don't think anyone is going to say that it isn't), I also wonder if there might not be something else going on here. It can't be physical (as it could, at least theoretically, with the Na'vi), but there could be some psychological dependence that carries through due to prolonged use of the avatar bodies. I'd note that of the four humans who defect, three were avatar drivers (Trudy is the odd one out). The 880 script would seem to play this out to a greater degree (Hegner comes to mind), but the idea still sticks in my mind.

These are just musings, but both ideas seem to have at least some merit on first view, so...thoughts?

[Shroom Man 777]

The ones who defect can be rationalized as them being sane and moral in the face of ruthless genocidal warmongers. Of the ones who go with the "final ceremony", only two people do it, namely Sigourney Ripley (Grace) because she was dying, and Jake. Jake was in love with Pochahontas, and he was also a cripple. In his human form, he had to use wheels. In his Avatar form, he had his legs back.

The Na'vi's own reverence to the planet might be genetic. But the biggest bits we see are social factors, namely their ability to interface with those soul trees. The fact is that the Na'vi place high importance on the planet's being because they can actually commune with it physically and mentally and they actually interact with it with their hair-braid-interface.

As for doing things "contrary to the will of Eywa", well... what IS the will of Eywa? It's not like Eywa tells them to do this or to do that, we don't even know if Eywa is a sentient being or can feel anything aside from perhaps instinctively reacting negatively to an outside alien presence (ala the immune system to foreign bodies).

Maybe a lot of this stuff can be answered by the other Avatar-related material that's been published and stuff that's not in the movie.

[Sarevok]

Eywa itself is probably limited to plant life. Fully sentient creatures like the Naavi coexist with the planetmind but are not part of it the same way all Borg are part of the Collective. Actually the best analogy would be the Cylons from new Galactica. The Cylon network allows Cylon skinjobs to upload and download memories. When skinjobs die their entire consciousness is absorbed into the network. this is pretty much how Eywa was stated to work for the Naavi. The planetmind provides them with a biological supercomputer and tree based internet and hair USB cables on creatures. Eywa is basicaly the leading IT company on Pandora. In return for highspeed internet, file storage and plug and play animals the Naavi agree to work as part of a balanced eco system willingly.

[Shroom Man 777]

I think this is one of those discussions where those supplemental Avatar reading material for the exceptionally pedantic would come in handy, since we can only guess at any and all of these things from what we saw in the movie.

[open_sketchbook]

I think the best answer is that Na'vi have the same amount of "free will" as humans do; none at all. We are both slaves to biological impulse; so what if they have additional imput?

[Shroom Man 777]

They have enough free will to have warred with each other in the past, so I guess they're not that borged out.

[Knife]

I think the best answer is that Na'vi have the same amount of "free will" as humans do; none at all. We are both slaves to biological impulse; so what if they have additional imput?

Indeed, the very idea of 'free will' seems to be the key here. If you have the 'choice' of following biological impulse and/or choose to delay your biological impulse (lets face it, you ain't resisting all of your life) is that really a choice?

[AniThyng]

As for doing things "contrary to the will of Eywa", well... what IS the will of Eywa? It's not like Eywa tells them to do this or to do that, we don't even know if Eywa is a sentient being or can feel anything aside from perhaps instinctively reacting negatively to an outside alien presence (ala the immune system to foreign bodies).

Maybe a lot of this stuff can be answered by the other Avatar-related material that's been published and stuff that's not in the movie.

Even the Na'vi themselves did not think Eywa would respond to jakesully's prayers, since nice most naturalistic religions (Taoism?) they acknowledge balance.

[GrayAnderson]

They have enough free will to have warred with each other in the past, so I guess they're not that borged out.

Well, I raise the issue of the Piggies from Speaker for the Dead because there was (I think) a long-term cycle of tribal warfare that coincided with long-term planetary temperature changes in the planet. Because of how it happened, the warfare served to cut the forest sizes down and release CO2, warming the planet back up, Also, warfare is (regrettably) a mechanism for population control.

Eywa itself is probably limited to plant life. Fully sentient creatures like the Naavi coexist with the planetmind but are not part of it the same way all Borg are part of the Collective. Actually the best analogy would be the Cylons from new Galactica. The Cylon network allows Cylon skinjobs to upload and download memories. When skinjobs die their entire consciousness is absorbed into the network. this is pretty much how Eywa was stated to work for the Naavi. The planetmind provides them with a biological supercomputer and tree based internet and hair USB cables on creatures. Eywa is basicaly the leading IT company on Pandora. In return for highspeed internet, file storage and plug and play animals the Naavi agree to work as part of a balanced eco system willingly.

Yes, except that it called up a few coordinated herds of animals at the end of the movie. Obviously there is an ability to tinker with non-plant forms of life.

As to the data storage system, that actually has me thinking: We're not shown what, exactly, the system actually holds. Is it individual consciousness on a long-term basis? Data echoes? The system has at least a theoretical size limit, after all. I'm also reminded of an idea in Court of the Crimson Kings by S.M. Stirling where the rulers were permanently plugged into a computer system (though still alive independent of them). When they died, a copy remained behind, but it was only complete to the last time they had been plugged in...thus when the King of Mars was killed in a fight, the copy in the system asked to be told what had happened.

I think the best answer is that Na'vi have the same amount of "free will" as humans do; none at all. We are both slaves to biological impulse; so what if they have additional imput?

Yeah, but there are drugs for that...and I'm not being totally sarcastic on that point. Even if you don't go to the extremes of Equilibrium, there are many impulses that can be suppressed (or, *ahem*, strengthened), both short-term and long-term, with medications. The point is that, at least in theory, those urges can be suppressed.

[NecronLord]

An interesting point came up in a discussion about Avatar this evening: Do the Na'vi possess free will? For this question, I'm considering free will as both the ability to make a choice and the willpower to make it and follow through.

Your definition is flawed. If I turn up with all my ghoulish necron minions and flay the skin off people in front of you to make an example, you may lack the willpower to defy me. That doesn't mean you have no free will, it just means I've scared the shit out of you.

[Darth Wong]

As a general rule, all discussions about free will are doomed to be stupid. It is trivial to show that no one has free will or that everyone has free will, depending on how we define "free".

In this case, "free will" was defined as "the ability to make a choice and the willpower to make it and follow through." By that definition, the Na'vi definitely have free will. However, so does a cockroach. Every time it decides to turn left or right, it is making a choice, and it has the willpower to follow through on that choice.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Alright, so the Na'Vi are continually dowloading and uploading data into the massive global Life Network. They can directly interface with the minds of other organisms to the point that the nervous systems join. The ceremony they use is basically a mind-upload. They transfer the data contained in one brain to another.

There is no reason to think that the will of this massive global life network is anything other than the sum total of the minds of every organism. They all probably upload and download data into this network at those distributed nodes we see. How often is another matter, but provided individual organisms share data, it can be as little as a few per subpopulation per day and the data will be shared between individuals fairly rapidly.

They in effect create a sort of globalized mind. Every organism will fight to defend its life, or the lives of offspring in those that do parental care What the network does is allow animals to process information relating to danger that comes from other organisms, and treat it as if the data was their own. One organism is stressed because of habitat destruction and everything else is now too.

Now add in the fear of utter destruction rendered into a conscious thought thanks to Jake. He transmitted that thought to the network, and let out the equivalent of a baby alligator chirping when a raccoon is harassing it to every organism on that planet.

[Oskuro]

My own pet theory about the Na'vi being so different to most other species on Pandora is that the Planetary Sentience, much like a typical bored deity, decided to create (through millenia of eugenics) a somewhat independent species for its amusement. And as such, the Na'vi have a single connector on their heads, instead of two, wich could mean the second is actually a wireless antenna that allows remote control of the creatures.

Of course, the Na'vi are so constrained by their own culture and religion (see the big red dragon that makes them forget that Jake brought about the destruction of their tree) that it is hard to define them as "free willed". Didn't Nertiry spare and defend Jake just because a glowie seed floated by? Go rational thought!

[adam_grif]

As a general rule, all discussions about free will are doomed to be stupid. It is trivial to show that no one has free will or that everyone has free will, depending on how we define "free".

In my experience, one hundred and ten percent of all arguments about free will end up in a total gridlock when it becomes apparent that both parties are operating under completely different definitions for what constitutes "Free Will", and both refuse to compromise their definition.

[Samuel]

Of course, the Na'vi are so constrained by their own culture and religion (see the big red dragon that makes them forget that Jake brought about the destruction of their tree) that it is hard to define them as "free willed". Didn't Nertiry spare and defend Jake just because a glowie seed floated by? Go rational thought!

What? A shaman in training viewing things in a religious light? Given that they really are from the home tree and the only other time they show up is at a burial I think here reaction is appropriate.

As for following a strong leader I don't see how that makes them non-free willed.

[Oskuro]

and that point/joke/jab at religion went right over your head.

[Sarevok]

I think the planetary sentience keeps the Navi technologically primitive. The Navis heads have been filled with the idea that they are as good as they ever can be. But if the Navi realize they can technologically advanced they would be a grave threat to the planetary sentience. They would be the disease that brings down the entire planet sized creature.

[NecronLord]

Why? There is no reason whatsoever that science must be accompanied by ecological destruction. The fact that the Na'vi have a preexisting equivalent to the motorcar (giant lizard things they can ride by connecting mind-tentacle, one bonded to every adult) would vastly reduce any ecological impact of technological development. They have no need for roads, and all the fossil fuels that go with.

[Cykeisme]

NecronLord, that's a pretty interesting discussion topic in itself.

What sort of technologies are the Na'vi likely to develop?
Would they have a need for them, seeing as how the planetary sentience provides for them? Do they have similar pressures that human civilizations did to develop agriculture, industry, etc?

[Lord of the Abyss]

Would they have a need for them, seeing as how the planetary sentience provides for them? Do they have similar pressures that human civilizations did to develop agriculture, industry, etc?

They do have one important pressure; an external threat; namely humans. And now that they/the worldmind have access to such concepts, the possibility of other alien species and asteroid impacts. And a nigh-immortal worldmind might worry more about the possibility of a threat thousands or millions of years in the future more than shortlived humans or Na'vi would.

[Darth Wong]

I think the planetary sentience keeps the Navi technologically primitive. The Navis heads have been filled with the idea that they are as good as they ever can be. But if the Navi realize they can technologically advanced they would be a grave threat to the planetary sentience. They would be the disease that brings down the entire planet sized creature.

They would actually feel the destructive effects of their own behaviour, so they would be less likely to engage in that behaviour. There's no reason why technological development or even industrialization must necessarily be accompanied by environmental recklessness. Besides, agriculture is at least as destructive to the environment as other kinds of industry anyway, and plenty of life forms have had drastic effects on their environment before humans came along. It's not really about industrialization being evil, per se; it's about imbalance. That imbalance can be natural, it can be agricultural, it can be industrial. It's quite possible to have an ecologically balanced high tech society.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

So... Let's see... basic technologies...

Agriculture, Writing, metallurgy. Assorted water-control techs are also extremely powerful.

They have no "need" of advanced medicine, if the movie's to be believed all of the planet's micro-organisms are either beneficial or only consume dead flesh.

[NecronLord]

So... Let's see... basic technologies...

Agriculture, Writing, metallurgy. Assorted water-control techs are also extremely powerful.

Quite. Though they seem to have no problems supporting quite a large sedentry population without Agriculture. Their ability to use aerial mounts probably greatly aids that, of course.

Writing, at any rate, should come very easily thanks to their newfound friends, even if it does consist of adapting the english alphabet (in fact, the corporate effort to teach them English has probably given some that ability already) and doubtless those scientists can give valuable insight into (more developed?) metalworking.

They have no "need" of advanced medicine, if the movie's to be believed all of the planet's micro-organisms are either beneficial or only consume dead flesh.

Where was that stated?

They seem to have a very healthy culture, but that doesn't rule out alternate and less savory explanations (much as I like them) such as euthanasia of the sick and injured. Though their teeth are in improbably good shape, suggesting they re-grow.

[Samuel]

Or they can figure out a way to use the planetary network to store information. As it is the system is inefficient based on trees as the unit. If they could find a way to seperate out the communications part and grow that they could make the planet mind more powerful and more useful to themselves.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Though they seem to have no problems supporting quite a large sedentary population without Agriculture. Their ability to use aerial mounts probably greatly aids that, of course.

It does also depend on their dietary needs... I don't recall any sort of "feast" or other meal-time scene... Although Sully did eat that purple fruit early on. (So, I'd say we can assume they're omnivorous.)

But, yeah, those Banshees are an impressive enabler.

Writing, at any rate, should come very easily thanks to their newfound friends, even if it does consist of adapting the english alphabet (in fact, the corporate effort to teach them English has probably given some that ability already) and doubtless those scientists can give valuable insight into (more developed?) metalworking.

Good points.

Where was that stated?

It's not expressly stated anywhere. It's more inferences from 880 summary, the medical application of the plants they were shipping back home, and a few comments on 'EU' materiel which I haven't actually read.