Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
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Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
In an empty region of space a Galactica class Battlestar FTLs in. Meanwhile 100000 kilometers away a
McKenna class battleship finishes a hyperjump. Then the unexpected happens. Both ships instantenously lose their faster then light drives. There is no physical damage to the drives; but the drive units just won't respond. Q materializes inside the bridge of Battlestar and informs the captain he has disabled their FTL drives and will not let them leave until they destroyed the unknown WarShip. He also enters the command center of the McKenna and basically says the same thing that until they kill the alien spacecraft the WarShip is going nowhere.
Thus both starships go to red alert and prepare for battle. The Battlestar is carrying a full complement of fighter craft and raptors. The McKenna also has a full load of aerospace fighters, dropships and missiles. Neither ship is carrying any nuclear weapons.
Which starship emerges victorious ?
McKenna class battleship finishes a hyperjump. Then the unexpected happens. Both ships instantenously lose their faster then light drives. There is no physical damage to the drives; but the drive units just won't respond. Q materializes inside the bridge of Battlestar and informs the captain he has disabled their FTL drives and will not let them leave until they destroyed the unknown WarShip. He also enters the command center of the McKenna and basically says the same thing that until they kill the alien spacecraft the WarShip is going nowhere.
Thus both starships go to red alert and prepare for battle. The Battlestar is carrying a full complement of fighter craft and raptors. The McKenna also has a full load of aerospace fighters, dropships and missiles. Neither ship is carrying any nuclear weapons.
Which starship emerges victorious ?
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
What type of dropships is the Warship carrying?
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Also, which is this NBSG or BSG?
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
"Raptors" indicates that this is neoBSG.
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
What is Project Zohar?
"On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it." - RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Spaceship/S ... asp?ID=716
Class/Model/Name: McKenna (Battleship)
Tech: Inner Sphere / 2652
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 1,930,000 tons
Hull: Cortex UltraBond
K-F Drive System: KF King I
Length: 1,405 meters
Sail Diameter: 1,560 meters
Power Plant: Goliath LV9 Standard
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Ulston C5-A Ferro-carbide
Armament:
12 Zeus-40 Series NAC/40
12 Thunderbolt-55 Series NL55
6 Maelstrom AR-10 Missile Systems
48 Kreuss XX Heavy NPPC
Manufacturer: Blue Nose Clipperships
Location: MArs
Communications System: Mercury TY60
Targeting & Tracking System: Communal V-1a
Overview:
The silhouette of angular turrets, mazes of towering sensor islands, and the sheer size of the McKenna battleship (twice as long as the previous largest JumpShip and ten times its mass) have made it one of the most recognizable warships. Sailors consider it the highlight of their careers to serve on one of the 280 ships of this class, and admirals invariably choose it as their flagship.
The McKenna was the only ship to win two consecutive Martial Olympiads, in 2696 and 2700.
Capabilities:
Proven reliability and major innovations won this prestigious and lucrative contract for the Blue Nose Clipperships of Mars. Reliability came from the fact that the ship's hull was based on the Farragut battleship, the strongest and most stress-resistant previous design.
The McKenna Class battleship carries the Lithium-Fusion battery system, a proven system after more than a century of use, even though few warships carry it because of its great expense. The L-F system stores energy in its series of Tokomak Rings, collecting it from the ship's sail or from a space station. The ship can jump into a star system, find itself surrounded, and use the energy in the L-F batteries to make the immediate jump back to a friendly star system.
The McKenna carries an unprecedented number and variety of weapons. Many naval officers feared at first that the large number and type of weapons would be unreliable in battle or would tax the ship's fire-control computers. The Communal V Naval Combat Computer System, from the Nirasaki Computers Collective, proved to be powerful enough for the ship's weapons, most of which worked well. The only exception was the balky Maelstrom missile system, which can launch any type of missile . Successive versions failed to meet expectations until the Maelstrom AR-10 finally worked properly.
The McKenna can carry many more AeroSpace Fighters than its predecessors, and it also holds six DropShips, marking a major shift in naval doctrine. Before the McKenna, the SLDF considered battleships huge escorts for combat transports. The McKenna can carry two regiments of ground forces and AeroSpace Fighters and can train most of its weapons on a planet's surface, giving the Star League the ability to use a single ship to quell all but the most dangerous military situation on a planet.
It carries 50 aerospace fighters with 8 launch doors, which IIRC from the rules mechanics allow it to launch eight fighters every 10 minutes. Or was that recover 8 fighters every ten...... It has 6 dropship points. SL aerospace fighters aren't really THAT good though.
The question is.... just how effective are her weapons? We seen naval bombardment in the literature before, to be honest, they aren't that effective. However, SL warships were supposed to have made uninhabitable Rim worlds before.
From AT 2, warships are capable of sustaining 1-2 gs a day, too lazy to convert the Mc game speed to actual speed though.
Class/Model/Name: McKenna (Battleship)
Tech: Inner Sphere / 2652
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 1,930,000 tons
Hull: Cortex UltraBond
K-F Drive System: KF King I
Length: 1,405 meters
Sail Diameter: 1,560 meters
Power Plant: Goliath LV9 Standard
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Ulston C5-A Ferro-carbide
Armament:
12 Zeus-40 Series NAC/40
12 Thunderbolt-55 Series NL55
6 Maelstrom AR-10 Missile Systems
48 Kreuss XX Heavy NPPC
Manufacturer: Blue Nose Clipperships
Location: MArs
Communications System: Mercury TY60
Targeting & Tracking System: Communal V-1a
Overview:
The silhouette of angular turrets, mazes of towering sensor islands, and the sheer size of the McKenna battleship (twice as long as the previous largest JumpShip and ten times its mass) have made it one of the most recognizable warships. Sailors consider it the highlight of their careers to serve on one of the 280 ships of this class, and admirals invariably choose it as their flagship.
The McKenna was the only ship to win two consecutive Martial Olympiads, in 2696 and 2700.
Capabilities:
Proven reliability and major innovations won this prestigious and lucrative contract for the Blue Nose Clipperships of Mars. Reliability came from the fact that the ship's hull was based on the Farragut battleship, the strongest and most stress-resistant previous design.
The McKenna Class battleship carries the Lithium-Fusion battery system, a proven system after more than a century of use, even though few warships carry it because of its great expense. The L-F system stores energy in its series of Tokomak Rings, collecting it from the ship's sail or from a space station. The ship can jump into a star system, find itself surrounded, and use the energy in the L-F batteries to make the immediate jump back to a friendly star system.
The McKenna carries an unprecedented number and variety of weapons. Many naval officers feared at first that the large number and type of weapons would be unreliable in battle or would tax the ship's fire-control computers. The Communal V Naval Combat Computer System, from the Nirasaki Computers Collective, proved to be powerful enough for the ship's weapons, most of which worked well. The only exception was the balky Maelstrom missile system, which can launch any type of missile . Successive versions failed to meet expectations until the Maelstrom AR-10 finally worked properly.
The McKenna can carry many more AeroSpace Fighters than its predecessors, and it also holds six DropShips, marking a major shift in naval doctrine. Before the McKenna, the SLDF considered battleships huge escorts for combat transports. The McKenna can carry two regiments of ground forces and AeroSpace Fighters and can train most of its weapons on a planet's surface, giving the Star League the ability to use a single ship to quell all but the most dangerous military situation on a planet.
It carries 50 aerospace fighters with 8 launch doors, which IIRC from the rules mechanics allow it to launch eight fighters every 10 minutes. Or was that recover 8 fighters every ten...... It has 6 dropship points. SL aerospace fighters aren't really THAT good though.
The question is.... just how effective are her weapons? We seen naval bombardment in the literature before, to be honest, they aren't that effective. However, SL warships were supposed to have made uninhabitable Rim worlds before.
From AT 2, warships are capable of sustaining 1-2 gs a day, too lazy to convert the Mc game speed to actual speed though.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
A point of thrust is 0.5g tactically, so the McKenna is capable of up to 2.5g acceleration.PainRack wrote:http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Spaceship/S ... asp?ID=716
It carries 50 aerospace fighters with 8 launch doors, which IIRC from the rules mechanics allow it to launch eight fighters every 10 minutes. Or was that recover 8 fighters every ten...... It has 6 dropship points. SL aerospace fighters aren't really THAT good though.
The question is.... just how effective are her weapons? We seen naval bombardment in the literature before, to be honest, they aren't that effective. However, SL warships were supposed to have made uninhabitable Rim worlds before.
From AT 2, warships are capable of sustaining 1-2 gs a day, too lazy to convert the Mc game speed to actual speed though.
The rule for launching/recovering craft is on page 39 of AT2 - 2 craft per bay door per minute. The McKenna, per page 164 of TRO:3057, has 10 bay doors, so it can launch or recover 20 fighters per minute, not 8 per 10 minutes.
The McKenna carries 500 rounds of ammunition for the NAC/40 cannon. The AR-10 launchers can launch any heavy missile; the McKenna carries 20 Killer Whale, 20 White Shark, and 30 Barracuda.
To provide a relative rating, the NL55 has "extreme" range and does 5.5 points of damage. The H-NPPC also has extreme range and does 15 damage. The NAC/40 is medium range, and does 40 damage. All of the missiles have extreme range; Barracuda do 2 damage, White Shark 3, and Killer Whale 4.
Per the range chart on page 14 of AT 2, medium range is up to 24 hexes, and extreme range is 50 hexes. Based on the altitude chart on page 11, a hex is approximately 17 kilometers. Thus, the long-range weapons have a range of 850 kilometers, and the NACs are about half that.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Let's say they are Overlord class dropships.Uraniun235 wrote:What type of dropships is the Warship carrying?
Now about the combat scenario. I happened to watch "The Plan" today and almost immediately recalled my thread here. I think Aerospace fighters should hold their own against Vipers. BSG fighter guns are very weak. They do less damage than some machine guns used by infantry today. See this strafing run by a Cylon Raider from the recently released "The Plan" movie.
Here we can see the Raider starting it's attack run. It's close enough to be seen by the naked eye by observers which is normal in BSGverse. Generally Vipers and Raiders close within less than a hundred meters of a ground target before they attack.
http://www.snailmailbd.com/personal/attack01.jpg
Now the Raider starts firing. Notice the faint amount of damage produced on the ground.
http://www.snailmailbd.com/personal/attack02.jpg
A human gets hit by the Raiders weapons. He does not burst into a gory mess one would expect from an aircraft cannon much less a spacecraft weapon.
http://www.snailmailbd.com/personal/attack03.jpg
Infact he seems rather intact and fine after dying.
http://www.snailmailbd.com/personal/attack04.jpg
Interestingly said weak little cannon will absolutely shred any Colonial Vipers it strikes. Viper mounted cannons themselves are in similar damage range doing same crappy damage against ground targets which I could try to screenshot if someone is interested. But aerospace fighters have armor comparable to battlemechs. They are like flying tanks. Can such dinky little weapons on a Viper dent that ?
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Painrack, you forgot to ask what faction/time period is the Mckenna from?
Is it Star League, post-exoduc SL, Clan, Wolf Clan-in Exile, Word Of Blake , post-Jihad IS/Clan?
Each faction would be able to equip the Mckenna with different Dropships and/or other stuffs appropriate to their position on the timeline..
Just as an example, the Overlords could be original Star League, pre-3057 , post 3057, Overlord-Clan , Overlord A3s.The WOB could have some funky weaponry,
Besides wouldnt a WarShip carry in a mix of dropships like fighter carriers, assault, and maybe 1 or 2 Mech carriers.
For maximum firepower, i postulate that a WOB Mckenna with 6 Excalibur Pocket Warships and a full complement of Blakist crew, fighters and Manei Domini.
Is it Star League, post-exoduc SL, Clan, Wolf Clan-in Exile, Word Of Blake , post-Jihad IS/Clan?
Each faction would be able to equip the Mckenna with different Dropships and/or other stuffs appropriate to their position on the timeline..
Just as an example, the Overlords could be original Star League, pre-3057 , post 3057, Overlord-Clan , Overlord A3s.The WOB could have some funky weaponry,
Besides wouldnt a WarShip carry in a mix of dropships like fighter carriers, assault, and maybe 1 or 2 Mech carriers.
For maximum firepower, i postulate that a WOB Mckenna with 6 Excalibur Pocket Warships and a full complement of Blakist crew, fighters and Manei Domini.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
On the other hand the absolute lowest end of the scale would be the Clan Wolverine's Mckenna or maybe a Mckenna during the Pentagon Civil War.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
I was under the impression that the WOB never did get a McKenna battleship operational.Eviscerator wrote:Painrack, you forgot to ask what faction/time period is the Mckenna from?
Is it Star League, post-exoduc SL, Clan, Wolf Clan-in Exile, Word Of Blake , post-Jihad IS/Clan?
Each faction would be able to equip the Mckenna with different Dropships and/or other stuffs appropriate to their position on the timeline..
Just as an example, the Overlords could be original Star League, pre-3057 , post 3057, Overlord-Clan , Overlord A3s.The WOB could have some funky weaponry,
Besides wouldnt a WarShip carry in a mix of dropships like fighter carriers, assault, and maybe 1 or 2 Mech carriers.
For maximum firepower, i postulate that a WOB Mckenna with 6 Excalibur Pocket Warships and a full complement of Blakist crew, fighters and Manei Domini.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Battlestars can take an awful lot of damage, as in Nuclear detonations to the naked hull...and keep on going, Pegasus took something like 3-4 of them in Captains hand and didn't die, didn't have ANY long term damage really.
Frankly I think the Battlestar has a solid chance of soaking up the firepower and closing to range quickly enough. Its main guns are also hardly anything to sneer at, especially if turned on the enemy Drop Ships.
The Battlestars best bet, if it can, will be to launch its Raptor wing with a full nuclear strike package, and have them jump in close behind the McKenna, and nuke it quickly. While the Vipers are kept in their tubes. Although they too can carry some significant missiles -witness the effect of the missiles fired at Roslyn that hit the Base Ship- I wouldn't really trust them to survive terribly long if they get into a knife fight with the Aerofighters.
So the best bet is to nuke the McKenna while the Battlestar deals with the Dropships as they come in, and have the point defense guns work to chew away at the enemy fighters. The Vipers can be loaded up with nukes if you really want to, and send them against the enemy fighters and dropships, but its probably just a waste.
EDIT
No Nukes.
Well, darn.
In that case, the Battlestar is going to have to play a very bloody game of charging in at full speed, taking the firepower as it moves in, directing its main guns against the enemy dropships and point defense guns against the enemy fighters. If it gets up enough speed to blow through the incoming enemy dropships and fighters, which should be screening the McKenna, then it can launch its Vipers with the biggest conventional missiles it has, to try and pound the McKenna, doing enough damage to one seciton to let the Battlestar really rip into the guts of it.
The Raptors can join them with a massive missile strike against its stern, try to cripple its engines perhaps...
But really, without nukes, this is at best turning into a MAD event.
Frankly I think the Battlestar has a solid chance of soaking up the firepower and closing to range quickly enough. Its main guns are also hardly anything to sneer at, especially if turned on the enemy Drop Ships.
The Battlestars best bet, if it can, will be to launch its Raptor wing with a full nuclear strike package, and have them jump in close behind the McKenna, and nuke it quickly. While the Vipers are kept in their tubes. Although they too can carry some significant missiles -witness the effect of the missiles fired at Roslyn that hit the Base Ship- I wouldn't really trust them to survive terribly long if they get into a knife fight with the Aerofighters.
So the best bet is to nuke the McKenna while the Battlestar deals with the Dropships as they come in, and have the point defense guns work to chew away at the enemy fighters. The Vipers can be loaded up with nukes if you really want to, and send them against the enemy fighters and dropships, but its probably just a waste.
EDIT
No Nukes.
Well, darn.
In that case, the Battlestar is going to have to play a very bloody game of charging in at full speed, taking the firepower as it moves in, directing its main guns against the enemy dropships and point defense guns against the enemy fighters. If it gets up enough speed to blow through the incoming enemy dropships and fighters, which should be screening the McKenna, then it can launch its Vipers with the biggest conventional missiles it has, to try and pound the McKenna, doing enough damage to one seciton to let the Battlestar really rip into the guts of it.
The Raptors can join them with a massive missile strike against its stern, try to cripple its engines perhaps...
But really, without nukes, this is at best turning into a MAD event.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
I was under the impression that the WOB never did get a McKenna battleship operational.[/quote]PainRack wrote:[q:
You, sir are very wrong on this respect.
FM:Updates page 89 mentions that a Mckenna class "Blake's Sword" has been renovated.
There's gotta be some mention in Jihad: hot spots 3070 and 3072 but i'll contend with Jihad Series: THe Blake Documents page 117 for now.
*Classified*
Class:Mckenna Battleship
Name:SLS Zughoffer Weir
Laid down: 2712 at Titan Shipyards, Sol Systerm.
Entered Service: 2717
Service History
*edited for verbosity*
Addendums:
Feb 3062, Precentor ROM:
In late 3061, the WOB brought a heavily damaged and inoperative Mckenna-class Battleship to the Titan Shipyards and started on a process of repairs and upgrading. ROM assets have been unable to properly assert the origins of this vessel, only that it was recovered rimward of the Outworlds Alliance. As no major WarShip activities occured there during the New Vandenburg Rebellion, indications are that this one of the ships that left with GEN Kerensky on the Exodus [Entry Duplicated on all unknown Mckenna-class Vessels that left with Kerensky whose fate is unknown']
July 3065, Precentor ROM:
The vessel has entered WoBM service as the WBS Blake's Sword.
Following entries cross-referred fom WBS Blake's Sword file.
3067, Dec 5: WBS Blake's Sword enters Tharkad Systerd with WOB Fleet.
3068, Jan 21: WBS Blake's Sword enters Tukayyid System, engages and destroys the Hammerstrike and Blake's Vengeance. Engages Com Guard forces with orbital bombardment.
3068, june 12: WBS Blake's Sword still in Tukayyid system, indications vessle might be stranded due to drive failure.
3070, July 10, WBS Blake's Sword engaged by CGB Rasalhague, destroyed
3072, Nov 18, Survey to WBS Blake's Sword hull deems it unsalvageable.
File Closed.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
A real world analogy would be
Foch class CV versus "Improved-Kiev" CV without specifiying which country the Carrier belongs to now, which generation of planes, and what armaments are present/removed on the ship.
Foch class CV versus "Improved-Kiev" CV without specifiying which country the Carrier belongs to now, which generation of planes, and what armaments are present/removed on the ship.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
I would like to point out that a warship firepower isn't particularly notable, although the effects of atmosphere attenuation must be considered. A sustained PPC bombardment of Oriente left behind rubble and the naval attack at Hiring hall left the broken spires of Ground Zero intact. Indeed, the HPG station was still left habitable and transmitting, although one should note that the new HPG stations were supposed to be more fortified, capable of keeping survivors alive without outside contact for considerable periods of time(well, claimed by New Avalon Engineers at least).
Claims that Lake Harlech was vaporised needs to take note that the surviving Comstar account states that the lake was still present and was blocked by rubble/industrial wastes. Part of the lake was hit and vaporised, but there is no evidence that the entire lake was vaporised by the bombardment.
The high end events are the Turtle Bay attack, where depending on which text you read, the first salvo from NAC/PPC destroyed the city. Others would be sustained bombardment supposedly rendering planets uninhabitable. I have no knowledge about the Snow Raven dante attack though.
Claims that Lake Harlech was vaporised needs to take note that the surviving Comstar account states that the lake was still present and was blocked by rubble/industrial wastes. Part of the lake was hit and vaporised, but there is no evidence that the entire lake was vaporised by the bombardment.
The high end events are the Turtle Bay attack, where depending on which text you read, the first salvo from NAC/PPC destroyed the city. Others would be sustained bombardment supposedly rendering planets uninhabitable. I have no knowledge about the Snow Raven dante attack though.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Didn't you have several similar debates like this on spacebattles, and those added in EF Nova dreadnoughts and Omega-class destroyers, which were a deadly to both the battlestar and the Mcknenna.In that case, the Battlestar is going to have to play a very bloody game of charging in at full speed, taking the firepower as it moves in, directing its main guns against the enemy dropships and point defense guns against the enemy fighters. If it gets up enough speed to blow through the incoming enemy dropships and fighters, which should be screening the McKenna, then it can launch its Vipers with the biggest conventional missiles it has, to try and pound the McKenna, doing enough damage to one seciton to let the Battlestar really rip into the guts of it.
The Raptors can join them with a massive missile strike against its stern, try to cripple its engines perhaps...
But really, without nukes, this is at best turning into a MAD event.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Considering that Helm was "a big mess" when Grayson and his band of merry goons were on it, i'd say Orbital Bombardment tends to mess a planet up I hear scouring a continent with Naval Lasers and other such WarShip grade weapons does the environment a power of no good.PainRack wrote:Others would be sustained bombardment supposedly rendering planets uninhabitable. I have no knowledge about the Snow Raven dante attack though.
When considering the effects of WarShip bombardment, we dont know what grade of Naval Laser or Naval Gauss was used. How long? How accurate was the ground observation/target correction. It's pretty safe to say CGB Rasalhague (Leviathan Battleship) could do some damage if it was of a mind to.
When doing naval versus battles: the issue that i raised RE: crew complement, weapons config and fighter complement are just as important as Class if not more so. A Brian-cache Mckenna crewed by half-starved, fanatical SLDF rebels is going to be much less effective than the Mckenna crewed by representatives of all Clans which orbits above strana mechty. And who knows what fun stuff was aboard the WBS Blake's Sword which escaped everybody's attention and came as a Lol What WOB have McKenna? we is teh Pwns!!? to everybody
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Thanks for the input Painrack and Evis. I left the details vogue because I just started familiarizing myself with aerotech units and rules. Please fill in the blanks like specifics of weapon configuration and fighter complements as best as you can.
One thing that bugs me is that there is no clear cut indication of battletech warship firepower. The range is well defined and quite excellent compared to most visual scifii. But how do those naval lasers, autocannons, ppcs and non nuclear capital missiles stack up in terms of damage ?
One thing that bugs me is that there is no clear cut indication of battletech warship firepower. The range is well defined and quite excellent compared to most visual scifii. But how do those naval lasers, autocannons, ppcs and non nuclear capital missiles stack up in terms of damage ?
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
First Match Omega vs Mckenna
Three way fight Nova battleship, Battlestar and Mckenna
these were sort of done before on spacebattles Chris OFarrell, as you were one of the main debators on there.
Three way fight Nova battleship, Battlestar and Mckenna
these were sort of done before on spacebattles Chris OFarrell, as you were one of the main debators on there.
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"No plan survives contact with the enemy"-Helmuth Von Moltke
"Women prefer stories about one person dying slowly. Men prefer stories of many people dying quickly."-Niles from Frasier.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Given that there are not any B5 ships in this engagement, I fail to see how those threads are exactly relevant to the current situation...
Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
And I'm quoting ground zero of warship bombardment at Outreach.Eviscerator wrote: Considering that Helm was "a big mess" when Grayson and his band of merry goons were on it, i'd say Orbital Bombardment tends to mess a planet up I hear scouring a continent with Naval Lasers and other such WarShip grade weapons does the environment a power of no good.
The issues of firepower is variable. Ground bombardment effects has always been relatively mild.Spaceborne..... the firepower becomes much higher once the Jihad nuke rules come into play.
Prior to that though, AP kiloton nukes is an instant kill. Even before that, the MUD game had the Los Alamos project having nukes be a force equaliser against Clan warships.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Have you served in the military before, my good sir? Where do you get off by saying ground bombardment is "relatively mild"? WW1, WW2 Vets and not to forget the cannon cockers would disagree heartily.PainRack wrote:And I'm quoting ground zero of warship bombardment at Outreach.
The issues of firepower is variable. Ground bombardment effects has always been relatively mild.Spaceborne..... the firepower becomes much higher once the Jihad nuke rules come into play.
Prior to that though, AP kiloton nukes is an instant kill. Even before that, the MUD game had the Los Alamos project having nukes be a force equaliser against Clan warships.
To illustrate, a fire mission carried out by 105mm artillery causes CONSIDERABLY less damage than a 203mm bombardment. Let's not even go into 406mm weapons carried by Battleships. One must take into further account how many rounds fired, when they land, and what projectiles were used. One need only look at photos of verdun or read accounts of how many rounds the Soviets fired off in a typical engagement as proof. Try telling someone in OP:Barbarossa Ground Bombardment is relatively mild.
I submit to you, sir, that the orbital bombardment carried out against Outreach was at the very least an order of magnitude less than the one visited upon Helm or a whole lot of other planets in the First Succession War. There are several reasons why i believe it to be so
1) There was an WarShip fleet extant over Outreach to at the least counter the WOB
2) The WOBllies may have had wanted to salvage some of the known underground SL-era facilities on Outreach, so the bombardment may have been calculated to lay waste to surface structures only.
3) While they may have been happy to blow up anything willy-nilly in Succession War 1, the WOB did want to capture some industrial facilities intact (like Hesperus II)
Going by the fact that at least 40 days passed before they ordered an bombardment and nuclear continent sterilisation, the WOB had other plans for Outreach rather than KILL EVERY ONE.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
I concede that nuclear weapons have correspondingly higher Boom factor but they do not concern us in this scenario as neither vessel now has any nukes onboard. Going back to the issue of Conventional WarShip grade weapons and the effects on ground troops/buildings, there are several precedents we can draw upon. Im drawing upon memory here as my novel collection is in storage
1) Turtle Bay - A city and river razed by one Essex-class Destroyer
In this scenario the WarShip had all the time in the world to quarter and requarter the city with salvoes.
2)Battle Of Huntress - tactical fire support by Lola III destroyer results in destruction of at least a Trinary of mixed weight OmniMechs.
3)Tikonov - Fox class Corvette and not more than 10 minutes of coverage results in carnage among the Loyalist forces.
For the purpose of our discussion, lets say that the WOB did not have total destruction as an objective so initial bombardments would be kept light (in a manner of speaking). Given enough time and fixidity of purpose, Armor always loses the battle against Warhead. Theoretically a Vincent Mk42 could do the job if left to its own devices.
1) Turtle Bay - A city and river razed by one Essex-class Destroyer
In this scenario the WarShip had all the time in the world to quarter and requarter the city with salvoes.
2)Battle Of Huntress - tactical fire support by Lola III destroyer results in destruction of at least a Trinary of mixed weight OmniMechs.
3)Tikonov - Fox class Corvette and not more than 10 minutes of coverage results in carnage among the Loyalist forces.
For the purpose of our discussion, lets say that the WOB did not have total destruction as an objective so initial bombardments would be kept light (in a manner of speaking). Given enough time and fixidity of purpose, Armor always loses the battle against Warhead. Theoretically a Vincent Mk42 could do the job if left to its own devices.
Homer Simpson : SLobber .... (Insert random item here)
Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
Even without the B5 ship, the Mercury Battlestar the big brother of the Galactia was compared to the Mckenna and matchup was surprising close, the Mckenna was the most loadout dependent of the lot, since it's dropships contribute so substantially to it's firepower.Given that there are not any B5 ships in this engagement, I fail to see how those threads are exactly relevant to the current situation
"a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic"-Joseph Stalin
"No plan survives contact with the enemy"-Helmuth Von Moltke
"Women prefer stories about one person dying slowly. Men prefer stories of many people dying quickly."-Niles from Frasier.
"No plan survives contact with the enemy"-Helmuth Von Moltke
"Women prefer stories about one person dying slowly. Men prefer stories of many people dying quickly."-Niles from Frasier.
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Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
We must also take into account the WarShip's captain's orders to his gun crews. As i've noted, the strength of the bombardment is dictated by the fire mission order.
I like to think that Naval Gunfire Support fire missions can be classed into 3 broad types:
Tactical: targeting troops in the field
Strategic: targeting bases/cities with the intention of neutralisation
Extermination: Glass the area!
With that in mind, your supposition that NGFS is only capable of reducing a city to rubble is pure cloud-in-the-sky.
Like i said, armor will always lose the battle against warhead. A truly concerted bombardment will be able to destroy any target no matter how hardened.
If i was to follow your supposition that Naval Gunfire could only reduce a hardened installation to rubble, it would be like a SWAT team using a battering ram ONCE on a door and then saying "ok fellers, let's go home now. the door obviously is proof to all Human Endeavours possible and only the hand of the Almighty can cave it in."
To use a modern day analog, the Russian SIOP-equilavent for the Cheyenne Mountain complex most likely has more than a few 20kt "WW2 Japan" warheads targeted against it in order to turn Cheyenne MT into Cheyenne Lake
I like to think that Naval Gunfire Support fire missions can be classed into 3 broad types:
Tactical: targeting troops in the field
Strategic: targeting bases/cities with the intention of neutralisation
Extermination: Glass the area!
With that in mind, your supposition that NGFS is only capable of reducing a city to rubble is pure cloud-in-the-sky.
Like i said, armor will always lose the battle against warhead. A truly concerted bombardment will be able to destroy any target no matter how hardened.
If i was to follow your supposition that Naval Gunfire could only reduce a hardened installation to rubble, it would be like a SWAT team using a battering ram ONCE on a door and then saying "ok fellers, let's go home now. the door obviously is proof to all Human Endeavours possible and only the hand of the Almighty can cave it in."
To use a modern day analog, the Russian SIOP-equilavent for the Cheyenne Mountain complex most likely has more than a few 20kt "WW2 Japan" warheads targeted against it in order to turn Cheyenne MT into Cheyenne Lake
Homer Simpson : SLobber .... (Insert random item here)
Re: Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip
So? The WOB unleashed naval bombardment STRAIGHT at Harlech. Ground zero, and the tower were still standing, just collapsed. The HPG station stationed just outside was still intact and transmitting. It isn't a megaton level event, which is what supporters of high warship firepower have been arguing for based on the Jihad nuke rules as well as autocannons ke. Its an interesting twist that in Battlespace/AT 2, warship armour is infinitely superior to ke attacks compared to their ground counterparts.Eviscerator wrote: Have you served in the military before, my good sir? Where do you get off by saying ground bombardment is "relatively mild"? WW1, WW2 Vets and not to forget the cannon cockers would disagree heartily.
To illustrate, a fire mission carried out by 105mm artillery causes CONSIDERABLY less damage than a 203mm bombardment. Let's not even go into 406mm weapons carried by Battleships. One must take into further account how many rounds fired, when they land, and what projectiles were used. One need only look at photos of verdun or read accounts of how many rounds the Soviets fired off in a typical engagement as proof. Try telling someone in OP:Barbarossa Ground Bombardment is relatively mild.
And? For Outreach, the WOB at that point in time had aerospace superiority and unleashed a direct orbital attack on Harlech. The damage done to the city overall was similar to the damage done at nagasaki, with further environmental damage inflicted by the series of dirty nukes used on Remulus.I submit to you, sir, that the orbital bombardment carried out against Outreach was at the very least an order of magnitude less than the one visited upon Helm or a whole lot of other planets in the First Succession War. There are several reasons why i believe it to be so
1) There was an WarShip fleet extant over Outreach to at the least counter the WOB
2) The WOBllies may have had wanted to salvage some of the known underground SL-era facilities on Outreach, so the bombardment may have been calculated to lay waste to surface structures only.
3) While they may have been happy to blow up anything willy-nilly in Succession War 1, the WOB did want to capture some industrial facilities intact (like Hesperus II)
Of course, I could also point to the Oriente attack where Marik unleashed a sustained barrage of PPC and missiles at the HPG station, hospice and nearby community.
As for Succession Wars bombardment, may I remind you that the IS has never sterilised a world using orbital firepower? The Star League yes, the IS no. Snow Raven... perhaps, but it was still a sustained attack.The original manuals had said worlds contaminated with radiation,chemicals and biologicals. But no sterilisation and etc. Pointing to Helm is nonsensical when one have no knowledge of the terraforming status of it.
And? I was referring to the fact that ground zero of a warship bombardment was STILL standing like any other town. Its clearly not a megaton level event by the fact that the buildings, the direct targets were still intact.Going by the fact that at least 40 days passed before they ordered an bombardment and nuclear continent sterilisation, the WOB had other plans for Outreach rather than KILL EVERY ONE.
Except the question is actually warship firepower/protection vis a vis nukes rules ala Jihad. The kiloton nukes have been used to gauge the effectiveness of warship armour, along with ke attacks. Ground bombardment however invariably shows a conflict of firepower between the two, despite some uses attempts to say Outreach proves that orbital bombardment is megaton level event.Eviscerator wrote:I concede that nuclear weapons have correspondingly higher Boom factor but they do not concern us in this scenario as neither vessel now has any nukes onboard. Going back to the issue of Conventional WarShip grade weapons and the effects on ground troops/buildings, there are several precedents we can draw upon. Im drawing upon memory here as my novel collection is in storage
A popular explaination is "scaling". You scale down firepower up and down for use. Its an acceptable compromise.... except the high end firepower is based drastically on rules mechanics.
You utterly IGNORED the context of the discussion. The context is FIREPOWER. Firepower of the McKenna against the Galactica.1) Turtle Bay - A city and river razed by one Essex-class Destroyer
In this scenario the WarShip had all the time in the world to quarter and requarter the city with salvoes.
2)Battle Of Huntress - tactical fire support by Lola III destroyer results in destruction of at least a Trinary of mixed weight OmniMechs.
3)Tikonov - Fox class Corvette and not more than 10 minutes of coverage results in carnage among the Loyalist forces.
For the purpose of our discussion, lets say that the WOB did not have total destruction as an objective so initial bombardments would be kept light (in a manner of speaking). Given enough time and fixidity of purpose, Armor always loses the battle against Warhead. Theoretically a Vincent Mk42 could do the job if left to its own devices.
I concede that nuclear weapons have correspondingly higher Boom factor but they do not concern us in this scenario as neither vessel now has any nukes onboard. Going back to the issue of Conventional WarShip grade weapons and the effects on ground troops/buildings, there are several precedents we can draw upon. Im drawing upon memory here as my novel collection is in storage
1) Turtle Bay - A city and river razed by one Essex-class Destroyer
In this scenario the WarShip had all the time in the world to quarter and requarter the city with salvoes.
2)Battle Of Huntress - tactical fire support by Lola III destroyer results in destruction of at least a Trinary of mixed weight OmniMechs.
3)Tikonov - Fox class Corvette and not more than 10 minutes of coverage results in carnage among the Loyalist forces.
For the purpose of our discussion, lets say that the WOB did not have total destruction as an objective so initial bombardments would be kept light (in a manner of speaking). Given enough time and fixidity of purpose, Armor always loses the battle against Warhead. Theoretically a Vincent Mk42 could do the job if left to its own devices.
I would point out that Tikonov is a very bad example to use because of the severely localised effects of orbital laser weaponery. A retcon for some of its descriptions is badly needed(Watchman suffered external edges of tens of meter wide dispersed beam perhaps) just to fit within the other examples of orbital bombardment firepower...... and that ignores the differences in firepower used for nukes/ke rules.
Huntress itself would had been better, along with the Battle of Hesperus. We seen vapourisation of streams and etc, but the events were a sustained salvo from multiple weapons and the effects overall still do not correlate to the game mechanics firepower conversion. Hell, Huntress is possibly the highest end of orbital firepower since an indirect strike at the Lyran Guards spilled over and damaged the spaceport severely, when the commander was expected to have used as limited firepower as possible due to the Ares convention.(We ignore the parts where he WASN"T supposed to have targeted the spaceport and assumed this was collateral damage).
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner