Units that should never have been made

[Eviscerator]

As an explanation, normally the design process for a modern machine goes through several stages like design establishment, specs wanted, prototypes and further test of.
Im doing an eval based on "common sense", feel free to correct any errors

Usually final production is signed off by someone after the Last Prototype passes tests. Stuff like this generally doesnt get produced
Robocop 2 Prototypes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJDztqCG ... re=related

Normally in movies/games the final product we see/use works well enough that we dont have to bend our imagination too much but some of these are really so glaringly "wrong" it boggles the imagination that anyone could have approved production

I'll list some examples which i think fit the bill
Matrix Sentinels
er so no ranged weapons except an almost melee range cutting torch type weapon? What happened to , you know, bullets and missiles ?
They've been around for a pretty long time

Matrix APU (Armored Personnel Unit?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f2aH4h733I
Right, no pilot protection, no computer-assist targeting, no heads-up display, and they've forgotten to add capacity for some more ammo bins. (The two bins on the cart used to reload dont seem to be able to hold too much ammo). Some bright spark said "targeting assist for ships yes. but not for the APUs which are suppose to be one of our best defensive units" Production approved! Go?



Final Robocop 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIAW2ZAf ... re=related
If one looks at the unit closely, the ammo feed for the cannon is fed from the arm directly and that size of comparment cant really hold much. The torso is massively armored but only the front, not the back but the legs aren't and logically it shouldnt even be able to stand up. And look, its remote controlled! With no "off" button or at least "standbÿ"" And we put the brain of a drug lord into it

[open_sketchbook]

To be fair to the APU, they are the scavenged remains of the old (armoured) suits you can see in the Animatrix, which are fully armoured and have screens to give good visibility and targeting. As ships are clearly priority, and most of Zion's defense was handled with the big honking armoured turrets outside of the doors, it's not surprising the APUs got the shaft for computer parts. Without full visibility, the whole articulated suit thing is pretty useless. It's clear the APUs in Zion were the results of using what they had rather than what they wanted.

[Eviscerator]

this case Gen 1 APU is much better then Gen 2 APU, but still no operator protection, not even a cage or something?

[Lord of the Abyss]

Imperial Walkers from The Empire Strikes Back. Even if you handwave away the inferiority of walkers in general, even for a walking machine they are a bad design. Tall enough to be unstable; the Rebels clearly knew about that, so it's an in-universe flaw. Only 4 legs so destroying one would cripple it. A weak neck ( therefore one getting blown up by a shot there; another canon flaw ). All the weapons concentrated in the head; this, on a machine that must have atrocious turning speed.

As an aside, I find flaws like that believable. Tyrannies have a tendency to build things because some high official liked the idea, not because they are a good idea or well engineered. Like the unworkable Nazi supertanks and so forth. I expect some Moff or the Emperor looked at the proposal and said more or less "Looks big and scary! Build it!" Who's going to tell them no?

[Eviscerator]

i completely forgot such Nutzi gems like
Panther's rushed into production at kursk without being properly tested.
The ultra-heavy railway guns Dora N Gustav
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_gun
I remember a remark somewhere that said to Guderian "The professor informs me that Dora can fire at tanks!!!" Guderian reply but can it hit the tank ?
Jagdtiger, Maus, Nsahorn AFVs

In a modern context i can remember the Soviet Ekranoplan WIGe vessel and the famous Howard Hughes aircraft Spruce Goose.

IIRC Darksaber is a pretty good example of how even the best plans if handed to incompetent workers and not overseen propoerly will result in Epic Fail. Death Star = ZAP. Darksaber = hmmmmmm..... FIZZ

[Mr Bean]

I remember a remark somewhere that said to Guderian "The professor informs me that Dora can fire at tanks!!!" Guderian reply but can it hit the tank ?
Jagdtiger, Maus, Nsahorn AFVs

Nashorn does not belong in that list because they were highly useful and cheap to produce on the defensive. They had the fearsome 88" Long (pak 43) and were used with great effect with long range engagements. Of course loss of the air made them vurnerable but there were several instances of a handful of nashorn's being able to stop an armored advanced cold until they were forced out of position by Soviet Artillery or aircraft because they could engage and kill at ranges that most tanks had issues engaging at letting alone killing at 3 kilometers. Like the Hetzer and the Stug's they were great tank killers and an efficient use of resources compare with things like Royal Tiger's and of course the Maus, Jagtiger or even worse the Strum Tiger. Because nothing says "efficently" like arming a Tiger with a 380mm rocket launcher it needs a crane to reload with.

[Eviscerator]

i was thinking of the Nashorn in comparison to the Elefant/Ferdinand when i included it. Same gun, vastly different protection. I forgot however there were hundreds of Nashorns vs about 90 or so Elefants. my bad

[Mr Bean]

i was thinking of the Nashorn in comparison to the Elefant/Ferdinand when i included it. Same gun, vastly different protection. I forgot however there were hundreds of Nashorns vs about 90 or so Elefants. my bad

Elefant yes, those were giant armored bunkers that happen to be mobile. The Nashorn meanwhile was a lightly armored Panzer IV-Chassie converted to move the Pak-43 around and carry ammo.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I remember a remark somewhere that said to Guderian "The professor informs me that Dora can fire at tanks!!!" Guderian reply but can it hit the tank ?
Jagdtiger, Maus, Nsahorn AFVs

Royal Tiger's and of course the Maus, Jagtiger or even worse the Strum Tiger. Because nothing says "efficently" like arming a Tiger with a 380mm rocket launcher it needs a crane to reload with.

The Maus does not belong to that group either, because only two prototypes were actually built. Sure, it was stupid to even initiate such a project, but at least they were smart enough to put in on hold.

The SturmTiger was designed as a specialized urban combat demolition vehicle. The original plans called for a 210 mm howitzer as the main gun, but then somebody suggested the 380 mm ASW rocket launcher, which was able to demolish a large building with a single shot. Considering the design purpose of the vehicle, the armament was not quite as ridiculous as it seems.

The Dora was designed based on WW1 experience. Concrete forts proved to be quite tough to crack in that war and in the late 1930s there was no certainty yet that air power could do it. Super-heavy artillery on the other hand was known to work and the Germans had none left from WW1 due to the peace treaty restrictions. It was fairly logical that something needed to be built to fill that mission, even if it later disappeared, since they had no way of knowing for sure that it would.

[Eviscerator]

The key here is that in an dictatorial environment , when The Boss says I Want This , telling him no often results in bad stuff for you
Without going into a lot of detail, Hitler was personally responsible for a lot of Odd Stuff.

Just to list few
Panther:
Delaying the Battle of Kursk to wait for the new Wunderwaffe
Jet technology:
insisting on bomber first rather than fighter.
General buffonnery: not allowing local commanders tactical flexibility to use forces, and at times even restricting authority of theater level commanders. Von Runstedt made a comment to the effect that the only real troops he could move were the sentries outsde his HQ.

[Zor]

ISA Intruder from killzone, this airborne Transport might have been beleivable for a civilian vehicle working on an atmosphereless moon but what makes it monumentally stupid is its use as a military transport delivering soldiers into the heat of battle. Leaving aside that it's completly unarmed and unarmored with an overly exposed cockpit and the areodynamics of a brick, but it's passengers ride on top of it, completely exposed to enemy fire and the elements with no more than a guard rail to keep them on.

There is no excuse for this vehicle, the flaws are so glaringly obvious that a child could tell you that it's stupid. It does not even have Rule of Cool to back it up.

Zor

[adam_grif]

ISA Intruder from killzone, this airborne Transport might have been beleivable for a civilian vehicle working on an atmosphereless moon but what makes it monumentally stupid is its use as a military transport delivering soldiers into the heat of battle. Leaving aside that it's completly unarmed and unarmored with an overly exposed cockpit and the areodynamics of a brick, but it's passengers ride on top of it, completely exposed to enemy fire and the elements with no more than a guard rail to keep them on.

There is no excuse for this vehicle, the flaws are so glaringly obvious that a child could tell you that it's stupid. It does not even have Rule of Cool to back it up.

Zor

Goddamn right. I picked up K2 a few days ago and I still can't get over how dumb those things are. The silliness hits critical mass when the people in your intruder start shouting to the passengers of another one, while you're dropping in from high altitude at a very high velocity, with no radios or anything. No helmets. Nothing.

The disparity between their material competence (primarily in the form of the ginormous, SSTO chemical rockets the size of skyscrapers) and doctrinal competence is staggering. Although that's not really strange in SciFi...

[Zor]

ISA Intruder from killzone, this airborne Transport might have been beleivable for a civilian vehicle working on an atmosphereless moon but what makes it monumentally stupid is its use as a military transport delivering soldiers into the heat of battle. Leaving aside that it's completly unarmed and unarmored with an overly exposed cockpit and the areodynamics of a brick, but it's passengers ride on top of it, completely exposed to enemy fire and the elements with no more than a guard rail to keep them on.

There is no excuse for this vehicle, the flaws are so glaringly obvious that a child could tell you that it's stupid. It does not even have Rule of Cool to back it up.

Zor

Goddamn right. I picked up K2 a few days ago and I still can't get over how dumb those things are. The silliness hits critical mass when the people in your intruder start shouting to the passengers of another one, while you're dropping in from high altitude at a very high velocity, with no radios or anything. No helmets. Nothing.

The disparity between their material competence (primarily in the form of the ginormous, SSTO chemical rockets the size of skyscrapers) and doctrinal competence is staggering. Although that's not really strange in SciFi...

I can see what they were thinking when they made it, which roughly goes like this...

Killzone Director: I need you to create a sort of airborne transport for a landing scene on helgan.

Concept Artist: Should not be dificult, i'll just whip up a standard rocket propelled helicopter gunship number and...

Director: No! We need some pretentions of originality for this game. Since we basically are having world war II in space, lets make them like those D-Day landing ships with the open roofs.

Concept Artist: Would that not be more of a strech, after all Helicopter transports were designed that way for a reason.

Director: Nah, this is just a dumb game about shooting Space Nazis. Being vaugely diferent from the rest of the sci-fi space marine shooters and keeping with thematic elements is far more important than silly things like basic logic in design. Anyway i want this done by friday.

Concept Artist: "Sigh" Fine, i don't give a shit either.

Zor

[Marcus Aurelius]

Director: No! We need some pretentions of originality for this game. Since we basically are having world war II in space, lets make them like those D-Day landing ships with the open roofs.
Zor

Another possible influence is Vietnam with troops riding on top of their M113 APCs. The reason for that was the poor mine protection of the original M113, so troops rather took their chances on the roofs rather than faced a near-certain death or injury from a mine blast inside the vehicle.

WW2 landing crafts at least had sides, although in the case of the LCVP they were not armored and therefore provided virtually no actual protection against bullets and very little against shell fragments. On water the latter were of course not as serious danger as on land.

[Sarevok]

I am surprised no one mentioned the Halo warthog.

Piccy

In 26th century mankinds greatest fighting vehicle is a Somali technical.

[Srelex]

I am surprised no one mentioned the Halo warthog.

Piccy

In 26th century mankinds greatest fighting vehicle is a Somali technical.

To be fair, if we assume that it's purpose is simply a mobile MG position, it's not all that bad. Could be better, but still.

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah, I mean we never saw any kind of tank in any Halo.

[open_sketchbook]

I am surprised no one mentioned the Halo warthog.

Piccy

In 26th century mankinds greatest fighting vehicle is a Somali technical.

You realize that the US military routinely uses Humvee variants that are even more open and unarmoured, right? The Warthog is a recon platform, mobile machine-gun, gunship killer and otherwise multipurpose light vehicle, and seems a fairly well-designed machine for the job.

[Themightytom]

The hover platform they used in masters of the universe (And highlander 2 for some reason ) seemed like a bad idea, offering no protection, no restraints, shaky balance, and a dubious height advantage given the fact that you could LITERALLY shoot yourself in the foot tracking an enemy.

Also this:

[Mr Bean]

You realize that the US military routinely uses Humvee variants that are even more open and unarmoured, right? The Warthog is a recon platform, mobile machine-gun, gunship killer and otherwise multipurpose light vehicle, and seems a fairly well-designed machine for the job.

...Gunship... killer? You know well the Warthog would do VS a real life HIND Helicopter? It would not be classified as a "gunship" killer in real life. Unless the thing runs on happy thoughts and rainbows, it's no less advanced than your average Toyota with a Browning .50cal strapped on the back. It's a technical because it's open topped (Hello shell splinters), un armored except against people who don't know how to drive. The only thing it has going for it, is that great suspension system it has, but a three by three would do the job even better. Compare the Warthog with the Mass Effect Mako which an armored enclosed recon vehicle with a remote controlled MG/cannon combo, an even better suspension system, and the ability to work in a huge variety of environments while the Warthog... well best hope you have oxygen and air.

The warthog is again no more advanced than what the US military drives around in today. We've been over the armor situation before when visiting Posleen discussions. Armor, even in space, wins the day. Having a decent IFV keeps your troops alive.

[Bilbo]

To be fair to the APU, they are the scavenged remains of the old (armoured) suits you can see in the Animatrix, which are fully armoured and have screens to give good visibility and targeting. As ships are clearly priority, and most of Zion's defense was handled with the big honking armoured turrets outside of the doors, it's not surprising the APUs got the shaft for computer parts. Without full visibility, the whole articulated suit thing is pretty useless. It's clear the APUs in Zion were the results of using what they had rather than what they wanted.

I always felt that the APU war built so poorly because Zion was so short of material that they only had what the machines had basically supplied them with. The machines basically gave them poor design APUs.

What I thought was stupid was how Zion never got smart enough to remove some of the EMP weapons from their ships and deploy them basically as area denial mines. Remote detonate them to take out tons of enemy squids and never risk a ship in the process.

[Sarevok]

Yeah, I mean we never saw any kind of tank in any Halo.

And yet the Warthog not the Scorpion tank is the most iconic vehicle in Halo universe. The warthog is so absurd and useless it should fit only small niche roles. But the Warthog seems like the most common vehicle in UNSC military. The Warthog would be a death trap in real world conditions never mind fighting the Covenant.

[Srelex]

Yeah, I mean we never saw any kind of tank in any Halo.

And yet the Warthog not the Scorpion tank is the most iconic vehicle in Halo universe. The warthog is so absurd and useless it should fit only small niche roles. But the Warthog seems like the most common vehicle in UNSC military. The Warthog would be a death trap in real world conditions never mind fighting the Covenant.

Well, in the majority of cases in the Halo games, the UNSC isn't exactly able to be picky about its vehicle armory. It is useful at rapidly traversing rough terrain, which is what you usually have to do in Halo vehicle levels.

[Sarevok]

Well to be fair we do see a range of armored vehicles in Halo : Wars that actually resemble real world APCs, self propelled artillery etc. But for some reason the UNSC is not fond of using them in large numbers. It's like how the SW Empire has excellent Juggernaut tanks available yet the bulk of their armored forces are made up of clumsy AT-AT walkers.

[Srelex]

Well to be fair we do see a range of armored vehicles in Halo : Wars that actually resemble real world APCs, self propelled artillery etc. But for some reason the UNSC is not fond of using them in large numbers. It's like how the SW Empire has excellent Juggernaut tanks available yet the bulk of their armored forces are made up of clumsy AT-AT walkers.

As I said, in most cases in the FPS games you're in a desperate situation where there's not much chance of getting fancy vehicles, with a few exceptions IIRC. I guess we can rationalize that we didn't see those vehicles deployed simply because they couldn't be.