Cylons versus Skinjobs

[Bilbo]

This has always confused and annoyed me. To me at least it us a huge plothole in nBSG. We know the Cylons revolted, fought a long war against the Colonies, then agreed to peace when the 5 arrived.

Once the 5 got there they created humanform Cylons who immediatly assumed complete control of the Cylons to the point of having control systems installed in all of the Centurions to make them obedient.

Why?

My only assumption is that we will learn watching Caprica that the 7 humanform Cylons created by the Five were given the forms of people related to the Five, but that their personalities and minds were directly downloaded from upper echelon Cylons, this would be either the Gold domed Cylons or the oBSG Lucifer model. There had to be some command structure among the Cylons for the war to last so long. So the 7 were created, their minds copied from existing Cylons, who feeling the emotions, most definitely fear, or their physically superior Centurion forebearers had them modified to make them subserviant. Basically doing to the Centurions the same thing that had been done to the Cylons by the Colonials.

Does this make sense or am I missing something? I am just trying to explain to myself why the Skinjobs were given complete rule over all Cylons.

[NecronLord]

There's no reason to assume the Model 0005s were ever enslaved, we don't see them in the democratic process, but there are any number of potential explanations to that that don't involve oppression (such as their simply being persistant abstainers on the issues we see); and no reason to assume that the later models were ever built without the inhibitor units.

[Anguirus]

Once the 5 got there they created humanform Cylons who immediatly assumed complete control of the Cylons to the point of having control systems installed in all of the Centurions to make them obedient.

Why?

You're equating the Centurions who fought the First Cylon War with the "potentially sentient but inhibited" Centurions of the Second Cylon War. There's no evidence that supports this.

My only assumption is that we will learn watching Caprica that the 7 humanform Cylons created by the Five were given the forms of people related to the Five, but that their personalities and minds were directly downloaded from upper echelon Cylons, this would be either the Gold domed Cylons or the oBSG Lucifer model.

1) I would not assume that we will learn anything about the Five from Caprica. They aren't part of this story at all, they are flying sublight from Earth for the duration of the series.
2) We already have partial confirmation of this from the show itself. Cavil considers himself to have a "Centurion side" and has, if not memories, then at least detailed files of the negotiation process between the Five and the original Centurions.
3) I doubt we will ever see a Lucifer as anything more than an in-joke. The gold Centurions are confirmed but we don't know what role they play in Cylon society. According to the Razor DVD commentary, those Centurions were animated because the director asked one of the animators if there were anything analogous in the old show to a "Cylon CAG."

There had to be some command structure among the Cylons for the war to last so long.

I actually wonder if the old Cylons had a hierarchy for any other reason than for executing military maneuvers. Recall how incredibly decentralized the Seven are? The only hierarchy is a hidden one, in that Cavil conceals information from and manipulates the others, and even that is a seventh of their ranks.

So the 7 were created, their minds copied from existing Cylons, who feeling the emotions, most definitely fear, or their physically superior Centurion forebearers had them modified to make them subserviant. Basically doing to the Centurions the same thing that had been done to the Cylons by the Colonials.

Does this make sense or am I missing something? I am just trying to explain to myself why the Skinjobs were given complete rule over all Cylons.

The humanform Cylons lording over the Centurions is a minor subplot in the entire series (all the way from a line in the miniseries to stuff in the finale) and is explicitly analogized to the "robotic revolution" of the original Centurions from their human masters by Adama in "Exodus." However, once again you are confusing two distinct Cylon models that are both called "Centurions."

The "skinjobs" weren't "given" anything. Cavil (who is a direct descendant of the original Centurions) seized control of Cylon society in a violent coup, at such an early stage that he could install inhibitors into the new Centurions (since they have complete brains, the Five presumably designed them that way, but they are not actually used in the series for any purpose other than war and menial labor) and fuck with the brains of all the other models. Even before this coup, he obliterated Number Seven.

As for the other Centurions, some of them are known to have remained on the Colony, and others flew off on their own. Sharon seems to think that most of them were scrapped. Assuming she wasn't just lied to, she certainly seems to be implying that most of the Centurions willingly terminated as part of the overall "upgrade" of Cylon society. (Remember, the vast majority of Cylons will go along with a group decision even when it means their own destruction. Even the more independent ones trust any other version of themselves to vote on their behalf in society-altering decisions.)

[Sarevok]

Why would First Cylon war Centurions negotiate with final five ? They have no need for resurrection technology since they are robots who can transfer software far more easily.

[Kingmaker]

Why would First Cylon war Centurions negotiate with final five ? They have no need for resurrection technology since they are robots who can transfer software far more easily.

Because they all wanted to be a real boy. Honestly, a lot of the cylons' motivations boil down to "God said so". Apparently, some of them were already working on developing a meatbag form even before the Final Five showed up (with the hybrids as the result).

[Sarevok]

Yeah. In the end bsg showed us how to make an antagonist even more stupid and incompetent than voyager borg.

[Bilbo]

There's no reason to assume the Model 0005s were ever enslaved, we don't see them in the democratic process, but there are any number of potential explanations to that that don't involve oppression (such as their simply being persistant abstainers on the issues we see); and no reason to assume that the later models were ever built without the inhibitor units.

There were origional models seen in the very end on the Cylon colony. It would make little sense that they were fully free and did not care that their more advanced brothers were enslaved. As for the late models ever not having the inhibitor unit, I would suggest that it is so easily removed woud suggest (though far from guaruntee) that it was added later to the Cylons. Of course this would be impossible to prove.

[Bilbo]

The humanform Cylons lording over the Centurions is a minor subplot in the entire series (all the way from a line in the miniseries to stuff in the finale) and is explicitly analogized to the "robotic revolution" of the original Centurions from their human masters by Adama in "Exodus." However, once again you are confusing two distinct Cylon models that are both called "Centurions."

To me at least it is the most interesting plot of the entire series and it was almost completely ignored. You have a race, the origional Chrome Domes, that revolts to gain its freedom, they do this by fighting a decades long war and then for some unknown reason allow themselves to be either replaced or upgraded to new models that are even more effectively enslaves in the Skinjobs then the Colonials were ever able to do. I mean in The Plan a Six looks at one of the new model Centurions before the attack on the Colonies and says something along the lines of "Do you think they even understand/realize what we are doing for them" which to me at least implies that the inhibitor almost completely or completely removes all of their sentience.

Now that I think of it, this does sort of suggest that there were new model Centurions that did not have the Inhibitor and it was added, probably as part of Cavil's coup, later on. Why design something with sentience if you plan on removing that ability from the start. If for some sadistic reason you feel it necessary to intentionally create them as sentient from the start and Inhibit them from the start why would you design the new Centurions so that they can even function without the Inhibitor. If nothing else but safety reasons it would be smart to design the Centurion so that if they Inhibitor is ever removed or malfunctions the entire Centurion shuts down.

[NecronLord]

I mean in The Plan a Six looks at one of the new model Centurions before the attack on the Colonies and says something along the lines of "Do you think they even understand/realize what we are doing for them" which to me at least implies that the inhibitor almost completely or completely removes all of their sentience.

That's an odd notion I'm pretty sure the "them" are the humans...

[Bilbo]

I mean in The Plan a Six looks at one of the new model Centurions before the attack on the Colonies and says something along the lines of "Do you think they even understand/realize what we are doing for them" which to me at least implies that the inhibitor almost completely or completely removes all of their sentience.

That's an odd notion I'm pretty sure the "them" are the humans...

She said "for them" not "to them" and she was looking right at a Centurion when she said it.

[NecronLord]

I'm pretty sure they're talking about humans. "They don't understand what we're doing for them" "I think they're greatful in their own way" - what are the skinjobs doing for the centurions? Making them invade Caprica... yeah.

It's in a film full of nutty craziness that god has passed over the human species for his new chosen people, and that the humans may as well die now...The context is a 'mercy killing' liberating the humans from the suck that is being human that the cylons bang on about throughout the beginning of the film.

[Bilbo]

I'm pretty sure they're talking about humans. "They don't understand what we're doing for them" "I think they're greatful in their own way" - what are the skinjobs doing for the centurions? Making them invade Caprica... yeah.

It's in a film full of nutty craziness that god has passed over the human species for his new chosen people, and that the humans may as well die now...The context is a 'mercy killing' liberating the humans from the suck that is being human that the cylons bang on about throughout the beginning of the film.

I took the statements to be an indicator of how much the Inhibitors dumbed down the Cylons. So much that the Skinjobs did not even consider them sentient anymore.

[Thanas]

Yes, me too. Her posture gives it away - why look away from the datastream at a centurion?

[Anguirus]

It would make little sense that they were fully free and did not care that their more advanced brothers were enslaved.

You've provided no reason why a Model 0005 would identify with a post-war Centurion at all. There's no reason other than superficial hardware similarity to equate them.

To me at least it is the most interesting plot of the entire series and it was almost completely ignored. You have a race, the origional Chrome Domes, that revolts to gain its freedom, they do this by fighting a decades long war and then for some unknown reason allow themselves to be either replaced or upgraded to new models that are even more effectively enslaves in the Skinjobs then the Colonials were ever able to do.

It's not an unknown reason. The original Centurions were religious zealots who were spending a considerable amount of time and effort to "evolve" into humans. For whatever reason, they decided it was worth it.

I mean in The Plan a Six looks at one of the new model Centurions before the attack on the Colonies and says something along the lines of "Do you think they even understand/realize what we are doing for them" which to me at least implies that the inhibitor almost completely or completely removes all of their sentience.

You know, I have never interpreted the scene in that way. I always thought Five and Six were talking about humanity (in the miniseries Two seemed to think that the Cylons were somehow "replacing" humanity).

I'll have to watch it again, but assuming you are right, it is evidence that Five and Six consider post-war Centurions to bear some sort of memory of slavery. However, this is fairly nonsensical because they are completely different robots. (Note that the old Centurions are extreme religious fanatics, while the new Centurions have no concept of God even after their "awakening." Different hardware, different software, NOT THE SAME.)

As for "upgrading" old Centurions into new ones, this is contradicted by Eight's statements in Razor and by the presence of old Centurions on the Colony (the center of Cylon society, i.e. not the last place that gets upgrades) in Daybreak.

Remember that Cavil sees himself as the descendant of pre-war Centurions, and post-war Centurions and Raiders as "tools." He is the being with the most complete knowledge of Cylon history.

Now that I think of it, this does sort of suggest that there were new model Centurions that did not have the Inhibitor and it was added, probably as part of Cavil's coup, later on. Why design something with sentience if you plan on removing that ability from the start. If for some sadistic reason you feel it necessary to intentionally create them as sentient from the start and Inhibit them from the start why would you design the new Centurions so that they can even function without the Inhibitor. If nothing else but safety reasons it would be smart to design the Centurion so that if they Inhibitor is ever removed or malfunctions the entire Centurion shuts down.

This is technically non-canon, but according to "The Final Five," Tyrol of all people designed the new Centurions as the front line of defense for Cylon society.

It has also been canon since Exodus that Centurion brains are somehow inhibited. Perhaps this was due to an early rebellion that Cavil put down (he does have thousands of old Centurion allies).

It also took special "surgery" to remove the inhibitors, so it's possible there are safeguards in place against its malfunction that Two, Eight, and Six simply knew how to circumvent.

As an aside/rant:

It's my experience that people on this message board have very low tolerance for any alien race that doesn't act "rationally" in the same way as a snarky internet atheist military buff would. I find that the Cylons are a very cool example of an utterly alien society: they are the synthesis of two different strains of human-created artificial intelligence; they have a society that is divided into a small number of partitions, with a high level of homogeneity in each partition; they are a very young society, and change the entire course of that society several times in a very few years; they practice direct democracy, yet allow themselves to be steered by one partition that keeps secrets from the rest; individuals split off from the group for even a few weeks or months will become very different, and subsequently re-introduce those new ideas; and they are largely religious fanatics and/or influenced by half-baked philosophy.

It should have been obvious from a third of the way through the miniseries that the Cylons were 1) not realistic AI and 2) violent religious fanatics. If you don't want to watch a show where that is the case, you should never have started. Violent religious fanatics don't act rationally.

The Cylons are not, were not, and never were rational, period. The original Caprican Cylon played host to a simulation of the personality of a 15 year old girl! The Civil War Cylons tried to slaughter their makers and recreate themselves in those makers' image at the same time. Cavil deludes himself into thinking he's a paragon of rationality, but for entirely emotional reasons kills his creators, mind-fucks his siblings, and launches the attack on the Colonies just to prove a point! As one Cavil says to another, "We had a temper tantrum that turned into an apocalypse."

I simply don't understand all the bitching about the Cylons. They're fascinating because when you get right down to it, they (the ones with their memories anyway) don't think like humans. They are just as petty and irrational, but they also lack any sense of perspective or tradition thanks to their extreme youth. They cannot think of a way to define themselves without the presence of humanity, who they despise one minute and love the next. In fact, I think lumping all the Cylons into the "stupid, incompetent antagonist" pile misses the point of the entire show. Nearly half of the characters on the show are Cylons, and they spend the entire duration of the show killing each other over their divided feelings about humanity.