B5 war: Minbari vs all other younger races

[Iosef Cross]

This is simple: The Minbari versus the Humans, the Narn, the League of Nonaligned world and the Centauri.

Historically, the Earth Alliance couldn't hope to win agaisnt the Minbari, however, in this case, they will fight 3 other major powers. Does the superior technology of the Minbari compensates for the greater numbers of the coalition?

[NecronLord]

The answer to this is unknowable. We don't know how the power of various other races compares. We have no solid numbers on industrial capacity, number of troops, resources, and so on. You're also not specifying the time period, are we talking about pre-series, during, or post?

[Jeremy]

At what time?

What's the set up?

[Ghost Rider]

Having rolled a bottle of whiskey around, it came up label side up. I conclude this must mean Londo will lead the Centauri to glorious victory after sacrificing wave after wave of Narns and Humans.

[takemeout_totheblack]

During the Earth/Minbari war humanity begged for help from all the other races they could, but were promptly refused despite Earth Force saving them from genocide or slavery at the hands of the Dilgar years earlier. Judging by their reluctance I'd say they they knew the Minbari would stomp them along with Humanity if they joined the fray.

The Minbari's greatest tactical edge is the fact that their ECM makes targeting their ships very difficult, there's no reason that the numerical advantage supplied by additional League, Narn, or Centari would make their ships any easier to hit. Unless that was resolved it's been a while since I've watched B5.

[Coyote]

I think only the Centauri might make things annoying for the Minbari. All the others would be minor troubles if not just outright dismissed as speed-bumps. The Narn? The Drazi? Naah.

The Centauri at one point had a much larger empire, it seems, and there is probably a lot of potential for support and heavy fleets-- they could probably cobble together a resurgent fleet and play the game again, and they seemed to be the species that was next in line for advancement after the Minbari.

I always saw the tech hierarchy in B5 as:
Vorlons & Shadows, other Old Ones
Minbari
Centauri
Earth Alliance
Narn
Various Non-Aligned races.

Still, even given that, I think the Minbari could take them, just with more difficulty. What takemeout_totheblack said makes a good point; no one was in a hurry to incur Minbari wrath.

[Bilbo]

In the novelization of "In the Beginning" Londo talks of the Centauri Empire at its height. At one point the Centauri and the Minbari has a dispute over a system. The Minbari bitch-slapped the Centauri with ease.

[CaptJodan]

I think only the Centauri might make things annoying for the Minbari. All the others would be minor troubles if not just outright dismissed as speed-bumps. The Narn? The Drazi? Naah.

The Centauri at one point had a much larger empire, it seems, and there is probably a lot of potential for support and heavy fleets-- they could probably cobble together a resurgent fleet and play the game again, and they seemed to be the species that was next in line for advancement after the Minbari.

I always saw the tech hierarchy in B5 as:
Vorlons & Shadows, other Old Ones
Minbari
Centauri
Earth Alliance
Narn
Various Non-Aligned races.

Still, even given that, I think the Minbari could take them, just with more difficulty. What takemeout_totheblack said makes a good point; no one was in a hurry to incur Minbari wrath.

Your chart is how I generally thought of things as well.

Londo even said in "In the Beginning" that even at the height of the Centauri Republic, when they were expanding in all directions, they never opposed the Minbari. Throughout the series, we know Londo to be someone who's very much in love with his own people and government, and feels they should be capable of almost anything, yet when talking about the Minbari he seemed more than a little reluctant. We know that they at least had Vorchan Cruisers in service at that point, so their fleet makeup hasn't changed considerably since then (though I imagine the Vorchans have probably seen some upgrades between ItB and Season 5).

Of course, some of this depends on when we're talking. I imagine it would be much harder for the Minbari later on than it would have been in ItB.

[Iosef Cross]

At what time?

What's the set up?

Around 2260. The Minbari are ordered by the Vorlons (or some other old race) to destroy the other younger races and the other younger races must try to survive, with means that they would need to defeat the Minbari forces.

I would think that it would be possible to defeat the Minbari, but it would take a very heavy tool for the younger races. The Minbari aren't so advanced that they can crush anybody very easily, they took 3 years to defeat the Earth Alliance after the humans killed their leader. The Centauri defeated the Narn regime in less time, about 6 months, but with outside help.

[Iosef Cross]

During the Earth/Minbari war humanity begged for help from all the other races they could, but were promptly refused despite Earth Force saving them from genocide or slavery at the hands of the Dilgar years earlier. Judging by their reluctance I'd say they they knew the Minbari would stomp them along with Humanity if they joined the fray.

The Minbari's greatest tactical edge is the fact that their ECM makes targeting their ships very difficult, there's no reason that the numerical advantage supplied by additional League, Narn, or Centari would make their ships any easier to hit. Unless that was resolved it's been a while since I've watched B5.

The greater resources of this coalition would enable faster development of technology to detect and strike the Minbari.

We don't know if the Centauri have technology advanced enough so that they can detect Minbari ships. Also, the Earth Alliance didn't have such technology in 2259, even after 14 years of the beginning of the Earth/Minbari war.

[Bilbo]

At what time?

What's the set up?

Around 2260. The Minbari are ordered by the Vorlons (or some other old race) to destroy the other younger races and the other younger races must try to survive, with means that they would need to defeat the Minbari forces.

I would think that it would be possible to defeat the Minbari, but it would take a very heavy tool for the younger races. The Minbari aren't so advanced that they can crush anybody very easily, they took 3 years to defeat the Earth Alliance after the humans killed their leader. The Centauri defeated the Narn regime in less time, about 6 months, but with outside help.

Your scenario means the Minbari win. Without warning at least one of the major races will be decimated. By attacking either the Centauri or Narn first the Minbari will guaruntee no immediate alliance is formed.

Once says the Centauri are gone and the Minbari turn on the Narn then the other races may realize the danger present but by then the single most powerful force will already be gone.

Finally in your scenario does the Vorlons give the Minbari the tech to build Whitestars?

[Bilbo]

During the Earth/Minbari war humanity begged for help from all the other races they could, but were promptly refused despite Earth Force saving them from genocide or slavery at the hands of the Dilgar years earlier. Judging by their reluctance I'd say they they knew the Minbari would stomp them along with Humanity if they joined the fray.

The Minbari's greatest tactical edge is the fact that their ECM makes targeting their ships very difficult, there's no reason that the numerical advantage supplied by additional League, Narn, or Centari would make their ships any easier to hit. Unless that was resolved it's been a while since I've watched B5.

The greater resources of this coalition would enable faster development of technology to detect and strike the Minbari.

We don't know if the Centauri have technology advanced enough so that they can detect Minbari ships. Also, the Earth Alliance didn't have such technology in 2259, even after 14 years of the beginning of the Earth/Minbari war.

What coalition? Is there some God being that is going to come down and tell all the other races that the Minbari are going to kill them all then force them into some alliance of mutual defense? Reality is that one of the major younger races and several of the minor ones will be destroyed before the threat becomes known and the rest band together.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I always saw the tech hierarchy in B5 as:
Vorlons & Shadows, other Old Ones
Minbari
Centauri
Earth Alliance
Narn
Various Non-Aligned races.

That's more or less right, I suppose, although the differences between the EA, Narn and the most advanced of the Non-Aligned Worlds (the Drazi and the Vree) are very small and in some ways the latter two are more advanced than EA. However, EA seems to have significantly more industrial capacity than any of the Non-Aligned Races and probably slightly more than even the Narn (before the Narn-Centauri war that is). The major malfunction of the Drazi seems to be their idiotic tribalistic political system, which probably holds their industrial progress back. Still, they are quite efficient militarily and fared very well against the Centauri during the Interstellar Alliance vs. Centauri war (in Season 5).

[The Big I]

The coalition would win as there are race in the non-aligned worlds that are as technologically advanced as the Minbari but not the will to fight facing genocide they would help. Hell all they need to do is share their detection technology so the younger races can see the Minbari fleet. JMS has said that if the EA could target the Minbari ships the Minbari would have lost the war.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The coalition would win as there are race in the non-aligned worlds that are as technologically advanced as the Minbari but not the will to fight facing genocide they would help.

The canonical source for that is what? I know there is some fanfic speculation which claims that the Vree are almost as advanced as the Minbari, but I have never seen any canonical source or even JMS comment that would confirm it.

[Batman]

The Minbari aren't actually all that far ahead of the other Younger Races technologically. Their ships definitely weren't immune to EarthForce weapons (if they were the Earth-Minbari war wouldn't have happened to begin with). Their main advantages were the 'Now you see me-now you don't' stealth and artificial gravity, and the Centauri already have the latter.
That being said, I DON'T recall any canon information on anybody having the technology to defeat said stealth.

[Bilbo]

The coalition would win as there are race in the non-aligned worlds that are as technologically advanced as the Minbari but not the will to fight facing genocide they would help. Hell all they need to do is share their detection technology so the younger races can see the Minbari fleet. JMS has said that if the EA could target the Minbari ships the Minbari would have lost the war.

There are races mentioned in B5 Wars and other RPG type materials but very little mentioned in the show itself. Also the IP was about destroying the Younger Races. The other races you are talking about were, in the gaming matieral, considering Mid Age races like the Minbari.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The Minbari aren't actually all that far ahead of the other Younger Races technologically. Their ships definitely weren't immune to EarthForce weapons (if they were the Earth-Minbari war wouldn't have happened to begin with). Their main advantages were the 'Now you see me-now you don't' stealth and artificial gravity, and the Centauri already have the latter.

Well, the Minbari beam weapons are also quite a lot more powerful than any younger race beam weapons. Some of the Centauri projectile-like energy weapons seem to be pretty powerful, but unfortunately there are no good scenes which would allow us to evaluate their energy output. The magic-tech propulsion system also seems to make Minbari ships quite fast. The White Star class is the best example (it most likely has no Vorlon propulsion tech), but the other Minbari ships are probably very fast as well, even if it was never explicitly mentioned. The Minbari jump engines are also probably more precise than the other young races except perhaps the Centauri.

Now, it is difficult to quantify how big these advantages actually are, but we do know that the Minbari already had the magic-tech propulsion as far as one thousand years ago in the past, which should count for something. If I remember correctly, none of the other younger races with a major role in B5 even had FTL space travel that far back.

[The Big I]

The coalition would win as there are race in the non-aligned worlds that are as technologically advanced as the Minbari but not the will to fight facing genocide they would help.

The canonical source for that is what? I know there is some fanfic speculation which claims that the Vree are almost as advanced as the Minbari, but I have never seen any canonical source or even JMS comment that would confirm it.

It was a direct quote from JMS saying that if the EA warships could lock onto to the Minbari ships they would have won the war due to the fact they were more flexible and the could vastly out produce the Minbari. I first saw the quote on SB with the address on it.

[Jeremy]

2260 So do the younger races get help from the Shadows?

So instead of Delenn breaking the Gray Council the Warrior Caste officially took over and decided to go all "Purge the Xenos!"? They probably found that Earth Force had deployed the quasi-Shadow ship which destroyed the Cerberus in 2259. The Psi-Corps already know to put Telepaths into Shadow ships to fight the Minbari. The Earth Force has deployed the Thunderbolts which are capable of handing a Vorlon Fighter its butt.

Are the Narn still curb-stomped by the Centauri + Shadows at this point? IIRC, the Centauri are already on the move against the LONAW which is in some strife itself.
Have the Drakh helped Earth Force make the Omega-X yet? How many?
How many quasi-Shadow ships does Earth Force have at this point?
The Earth Force already has the GOD Cannons
There were several Warlocks deployed in 2267, does Earth Force have a working prototype Warlock yet? (I am skeptical of this.)
Did the Technomages decide to leave or did Elizar get a portion of them working for the Shadows again?

The Yolu, Markab (extinct at this point in series), Hyach, Abbai (have shields according to B5Wars), Ipsha, Luminati (isolationist), and Vree (I think a Xill Cruiser wrecked a Vorlon Dreadnought in ITF) are supposed to be fairly advanced and in that order IIRC. The Yolu and maybe the Markab are Middle Born (B5Wars). The first 3 also fought in the previous Shadow War. I don't know if they are on the level of the Minbari though.


So realistically, at this point you have the Earth Alliance linking up with the Centauri. Maybe the Vree and maybe the Brakiri can be bought over but the chances are slim. So the Minbari are probably going to be swinging through the Centauri, the Humans, or cutting through the middle while the LONAW eats at the other side of the Centauri and Humans. If you bring the Shadows in, the fight could be a slug through the Alliance peripheries, occupied Narn territory, and the Minbari Federation.

[Jeremy]

*Earth Alliance peripheries*

[Starglider]

The Minbari aren't actually all that far ahead of the other Younger Races technologically. Their ships definitely weren't immune to EarthForce weapons (if they were the Earth-Minbari war wouldn't have happened to begin with). Their main advantages were the 'Now you see me-now you don't' stealth and artificial gravity, and the Centauri already have the latter.

The Centauri have interior AG but not reactionless drive; their ships still have thrusters and use antimatter for power. The most advanced non-aligned race seems to be the Vree, who have reactionless drive, that funky antimatter burst weapon and (according to the fluff) 'quantum-gravitic' reactors similar to the Mimbari. Certainly they seem more advanced than the Centauri, but they don't seem to have either the numbers or the species-wide government needed to be a major power.

[CaptJodan]

The Minbari aren't actually all that far ahead of the other Younger Races technologically. Their ships definitely weren't immune to EarthForce weapons (if they were the Earth-Minbari war wouldn't have happened to begin with). Their main advantages were the 'Now you see me-now you don't' stealth and artificial gravity, and the Centauri already have the latter.

The Centauri have interior AG but not reactionless drive; their ships still have thrusters and use antimatter for power. The most advanced non-aligned race seems to be the Vree, who have reactionless drive, that funky antimatter burst weapon and (according to the fluff) 'quantum-gravitic' reactors similar to the Mimbari. Certainly they seem more advanced than the Centauri, but they don't seem to have either the numbers or the species-wide government needed to be a major power.

There's also no indication that the Vree, or any of the younger races can, as of yet, overcome the stealth advantage the Minbari have. If we look to the Centauri as the next race down from the Minbari...certainly from a combined industrial and technological state (the Vree may be advanced, but don't span as far or as wide), we know they're scanners can't pick up Minbari fighters, even when they're latched on to the hull and siphoning air and power.

The Vree, to my knowledge, have never been seen on screen destroying anything larger than fighters. I certainly don't think they ever got close to destroying a Vorlon Dreadnaught, so I'd like to see some evidence on that.

[Jeremy]

The Vree, to my knowledge, have never been seen on screen destroying anything larger than fighters. I certainly don't think they ever got close to destroying a Vorlon Dreadnaught, so I'd like to see some evidence on that.

I was mistaken, it was a Fighter, as you said, that the Xill Cruiser destroyed, not a Dreadnought.
1:05 in The Battle of Corianna VI

[Korgeta]

Prior to the earth-Minbari war, Earth alliance literally saved the younger races (league of non aligned worlds) from the Dilgar. the Dilgar were pretty much in the same setup as the minbari are in this scenario. They brazenly took on the narns and made them sign a peace treaty, expanding all areas on the league of non aligned worlds and the centurai were afraid to intervene. Even in 2260, earth Alliance is still top dog of the younger races.

In hindsight, even the dilgar wern't at the minbari tech level, and were they not fighting all of the younger races proabrly could have defeated the earth alliance. The only two races who have clearly risen in power in 2260 are the Minbari and earth alliance. Earth had the omega class and the minbari had the white star.

In 2260, the narns are no longer a superpower, (setting of this scenario) With exception to the vree there isn't much from the younger races except the earth alliance.

The only reason why the earth allaince held the earth-minbari war for so long was because it had a large amount of territory prior to the war, it suffered the least out of the dilgar war and built up on it. Minbari ECM aren't the only thing that in minari's favour. The sheer range and power of their weapons is more then enough.

It was a direct quote from JMS saying that if the EA warships could lock onto to the Minbari ships they would have won the war due to the fact they were more flexible and the could vastly out produce the Minbari. I first saw the quote on SB with the address on it.

The coalition would win as there are race in the non-aligned worlds that are as technologically advanced as the Minbari but not the will to fight facing genocide they would help.

The canonical source for that is what? I know there is some fanfic speculation which claims that the Vree are almost as advanced as the Minbari, but I have never seen any canonical source or even JMS comment that would confirm it.

It was a direct quote from JMS saying that if the EA warships could lock onto to the Minbari ships they would have won the war due to the fact they were more flexible and the could vastly out produce the Minbari. I first saw the quote on SB with the address on it.

More credible verification is needed, from like the lurker's guide.