Powered Armor vs Dalek-style Vehicles

[Rossum]

Okay, after looking over several of the past threads regarding Powered Armor and Mechs I've gathered that humanoid mechs are pretty impractical compared to tanks. Powered Armor is somewhat more understandable since it can provide greater protection (and life support and offensive capacity) for soldiers on the infantry level.

However, the Daleks have their Mobile Travel Machines which give them some pretty impressive armor (which they don't have to carry) and can attach powerful weapons to it as well. Essentially, the Daleks travel in one-man tanks that give their forces heavy armor on the infantry level. They do suffer from mobility problems and as such cannot fit through small areas and rely on levitation to get past stairs or rugged terrain.



So... if you were in charge of a space faring military and had at your disposal regular armor, powered armor, dalek-style vehicles, and larger multi-man vehicles then how would you equip your troops? Assume that many of the planets would involve planets that are not easily habitable and would require some sort of life support, but there would be resources and infrastructure in the form of colonies and such but enemies would have ways to survive in the areas outside the colonies.


From what I can see, one-man infantry level vehicles would have an advantage over Powered Armor in that they have fewer moving parts and can be shaped in order to better make use of the armor and the components. Also, a wheeled vehicle should be able to move faster than a legged set of Power Armor. However, they would lack some of the mobility of Powered Armor that is shaped over the human body and confined spaces, rocky terrain, and possibly ladders and stairs could be a problem. Bulky Powered Armor could have some of those problems to a lesser extent.

One-man armored vehicles seem like they would be a cheaper and stronger alternative to Power Armor as long as they are used in situations where the terrain won't inhibit their mobility.

[adam_grif]

To clarify, with "Dalek-style vehicles" are you referring to the Daleks themselves (EXTERMINATEEEE etc), or some sort of vehicle they employ other than this? I don't watch Who, so...

Anyway,



This platform is even shorter than a Dalek, a more regular shape (armor freindly) and has tracks instead of wheels. The difficulty is climbing stairs, as always. A slightly scaled up version with a heavier weapon might be pretty good.

[Stark]

The daleks are vehicles, that's his point. A mutant crab drives it, but could just as easily drive power armor. Dalek style tanks have advantages of lower complexity and higher armour, but it depends on what tech level dictates.

[Simon_Jester]

Also the body form. A Dalek-style tank is driven by a very small organism; you can fit the organism into a small, heavily armored cavity in the body and devote most of the rest of the (human-sized) body to machinery. A human being would need a much larger cockpit to drive the tank from, which would mean making the tank larger and heavier, possibly to the point where it becomes a big, awkward target in enclosed spaces.

Which is where powered armor might become desirable.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Or just make it a fucking unmanned vehicle

[adam_grif]

Or just make it a fucking unmanned vehicle

Ding ding.

Like I said, small, tank-like, big fuckoff machinegun.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Or just make it a fucking unmanned vehicle

You don't necessarily want an army composed 100% of drones or robots. With the former, there's the risk of their control transmissions being blocked or jammed. With the latter, there's the danger that robots unlike human soldiers will do anything they are programmed to do; including turn on the population they are supposed to protect if so ordered.

[Sarevok]

So humans in power armor leading hovering robotic gun platforms then ?

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, but can they go up stairs? That was a major flaw of the Daleks, not being able to climb stairs in the slightest bit.

[Temujin]

I would go with a variety of weapons systems, both manned and unmanned, to ensure maximum versatility. That makes enough sense just on Earth; if your going to many different planetary enviornments, you want to be fully prepared to be able to fight in those enviornments against whoever you may have to.

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah, but can they go up stairs? That was a major flaw of the Daleks, not being able to climb stairs in the slightest bit.

Go back and watch Dr. Who. Daleks getting stopped by stairs was a comedic out of universe explaination. The in-universe explaination has always been they can and do hover up and simply shot the fucker .

[Kuroji]

You do know that they eventually gave the Daleks the ability of flight whenever they required it to get over an obstacle, right? Though it was a hilarious oversight early on... a whole society without the ability to climb stairs or even a curb! Dig a six inch deep pit and bam, nothing they can do to fight.

Obviously they're working on that for current autonomous vehicles, but as it stands they're not meant for traveling up and down stairs. Now, if they were piloted by sentient beings and were supposed to be used to destroy civilizations, then not adding that capability would be really boneheaded.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, after a few years, but my point was we need to make sure that the armor can deal with obstacles like that. Maybe give it some anti-gravity gear, like the Daleks in NuWho.

[adam_grif]

Go back and watch Dr. Who. Daleks getting stopped by stairs was a comedic out of universe explaination. The in-universe explaination has always been they can and do hover up and simply shot the fucker .

Yes, Daleks can hover, but that'd be a pretty impressive feat if you got one to do that in real life. Considering we're discussing the merits of various kinds of armor here as they pertain to the real world...

You don't necessarily want an army composed 100% of drones or robots.

I don't think anybody ever proposed that? Regular infantry supplement the UGVs, possibly even some PA. But if you're after small armored vehicles for indoors operation, putting a passenger inside is going to waste a lot of internal volume. I honestly can't see how you could get a Dalek with an actual person inside of it that would be able to fit through a doorway, and making such a thing for operation outdoors is asking for it to be plastered by fire from weapons heavier than an infantry rifle, which it's not going to feasibly be able to stand up to.

[Ghost Rider]

Go back and watch Dr. Who. Daleks getting stopped by stairs was a comedic out of universe explaination. The in-universe explaination has always been they can and do hover up and simply shot the fucker .

Yes, Daleks can hover, but that'd be a pretty impressive feat if you got one to do that in real life. Considering we're discussing the merits of various kinds of armor here as they pertain to the real world...

In context of that, sure. But that depends on that you want to completely eliminate the human element within the urban situation.

My bit was specifically for the idiot blithering that he used an assumption that Daleks are primitive because of their inability to climb stairs because the writers enjoyed it as a comedic effect.

And unless you had some sort of ability to circumvent any raised platform the basic Dalek device with our current technology is fucking dumb. In that particular, no one would use it because dig a small moat and all they can do is fire their weapon at you and still be hindered by the horizon.

[Rossum]

Yeah, now that I think about it then the mobility and versatility of Powered Armor does provide advantages that could outweigh the reduction in costs.

For outdoor operations, then you could probably equip them with actual armored vehicles that seat more than one person and have drivers, gunners, and someone to keep an eye on the unmanned drones in the area (unmanned drones would be a big part of warfare on other planets due to environment issues and that you could replace a machine easier than a soldier).

Or if one-manned vehicles are necessary, then get something like the Mongoose from the Halo series... but with some actual protective armor and weapons or something. In outdoor environs then the vehicle could be made bigger but would need to deal with rough terrain. Legged mechs might be usable if they can walk on terrin that wheeled vehicles can't and air/hover vehicles aren't available.

In cramped urban/corridor environments then a dedicated Dalek-style vehicle could be replaced with something like a heavy machinegun turret mounted on wheels... something that one soldier could drive or push into position without having to carry it. Set up a heavy barrier or something to provide some protection for the person manning the turret and lay down fire. The new Daleks look like they would make good point-defense platforms the way they can rapidly rotate their weapons into position and fire. So... yeah, the 'dalek' vehicle could just be an unmanned point-defense turret or a heavy weapon that soldiers push into place and man only when they need to fire it. If they come across terrain that they can't drive the turret up then they can cross it themselves use their own guns... the turret would just be an extra bit of heavy weapons they drag along.

Powered Armor would provide better protection than standard armor, but I guess it depends on its construction on how well it would be suited for urban combat. The main advantage of Power Armor is that it can stand up by itself and doesn't require the user to carry the weight. Depending on how much it weights, a person in Power Armor could have trouble climbing stairs or ladders that can't support their weight... in addition to crawling through tight spaces due to the extra bulk.

So a space faring army would likely have the majority of its soldiers wearing normal armor that is as tough as they can get it without weighing them down, some suits of Power Armor for missions where it would be necessary for increased mobility and durability, plenty of vehicles of various sizes... though maybe not many of them Dalek-sized, various unmanned vehicles, and maybe some turret things that can function as unmanned robots or be manually controlled by the soldiers.

[Stark]

Yeah, but can they go up stairs? That was a major flaw of the Daleks, not being able to climb stairs in the slightest bit.

He's using Daleks as an example of a 'vehicle' constrasted with power armour. The specific shape isn't relevant.

And power armour is basically only necessary if you want to put a stupid person there... so...

[Lord of the Abyss]

You don't necessarily want an army composed 100% of drones or robots.

I don't think anybody ever proposed that?

That did seem to be the implication of "Or just make it a fucking unmanned vehicle"; that's only an answer to the question if all you have are unmanned systems.

So humans in power armor leading hovering robotic gun platforms then ?

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Or treads or whatever instead of hovering.

Come to think of it, in that scenario you might want to make at least some of your combat drones humanoid so they look exactly like a human in power armor, so the enemy doesn't know who is in charge.

[Rossum]

Regarding the stairs problem, I searched on Youtube and found this:



The design looks like it could be improved to carry something bigger, at the very least a turret like the unmanned robot adam_grif posted above. It could also be used as the wheels for a scooter-like thing. Like one of those motor scooters used at Wal-Mart with the motor and wheels below and a seat to sit on. With some sort of balancing device then the seat portion could remain upright while the treads tilt upwards to let the thing drive up stairs or over rouge terrain.

Though I think the Dalek vehicles could be designed in their salt-shaker shape so that the armor covers their wheels. Maybe their shell is kind of bell-shaped and they have tracks underneith, that way enemies can't easily target their tracks in order to disable the vehicle. If they come across stairs then they simply lift up the armored 'skirt' or extend the tracks farther down to give them room to drive up the stairs. That way, when they are on level surfaces then their tracks or wheels are protected from enemy attacks but when they hit stairs or uneven terrain then they expose them just enough to bypass the obstacle.

After looking over the Second Empire webcomic, it looks like the Dalek vehicle design could allow for a great deal of customization. They basically have three sections, the bottom section has the mobility component which could be the standard armored bell shape or could be replaced with all sorts of wheeled or hover capable designs, the middle section has their weapons and manipulator arms which can be changed as needed, and then the top head portion with the sensors and such.

[Stark]

Dalek vehicles are useless for humans. They can be effective because Kaleds are physically small, but a human would require a far larger vehicle that wouldn't be comparable.

Kaled power armour would be about the size of a breadbox.

How power-armour humans are supposed to lead a group of vehicles that outperform them is an interesting question.

[Night_stalker]

Maybe serve as scouts or even forward spotters for artillery?

That would use their superior mobility to the best of their advantage, and still have the core of the military be armored vehicles.

[Werrf]

Dalek vehicles are useless for humans. They can be effective because Kaleds are physically small, but a human would require a far larger vehicle that wouldn't be comparable.

[Geek]Actually Kaleds are the same size and shape as humans. The mutated creatures that descended from the Kaleds were named Daleks. They became a distinct species and were given their own name. For that matter, Kaled was only ever a name for one faction of the humanoids on Skaro, not the species.[/geek]

How power-armour humans are supposed to lead a group of vehicles that outperform them is an interesting question.

The same way they do now, from remote vantage points. The power armour would come in handy if/when the enemy drones overran the operators position and the operator was forced to engage in personal combat. Since that would have to be the only viable tactical goal of a drone-op vs drone-op battle, it's something worth planning for.

Of course, until we get either a true neural interface that will allow the operators to control their drones directly with mental impulses or vastly better AI, drones are still never going to be able to replace the flexibility of a human infantryman. For the forseeable future, drones are still going to be supplementing human soldiers, not replacing them.

The above is, of course, nothing but IMO; I'm always willing to be persuaded otherwise

[Stark]

So why not give them a flying chariot or something? Power armour's only utility is against man-portable weapons. A bunch of drones are going to outperform the power armour unless they're budget models, so you're still in trouble. The infantry job is going to be a lot easier once the high-performance robots go through.

And sorry, Terry Nation can fuck off, you don't reverse your first and last letter when you reach a certain 'mutant threshold', no matter how Nazi you are.

[adam_grif]

Depending on context, there might be an APC or IFV, but instead of dismounting troops, it deploys drones and has them controlled by the passengers on board. Control could be trasferred to troops on the ground if necessary, although how they would control them exactly may be something of a hurdle. Unless they just roll around with a 360 gamepad or something...

[Lord of the Abyss]

So why not give them a flying chariot or something?

Because a "flying chariot" can't go inside most buildings.

Power armour's only utility is against man-portable weapons.

And against the indirect effects of many heavier weapons. That as I understand it is much of the reason the Pentagon is interested; not because they expect invincible super soldiers, but because a power armored soldier is a harder target that isn't going to get killed by little pieces of shrapnel and ricochets and so on.

A bunch of drones are going to outperform the power armour unless they're budget models, so you're still in trouble.

The machines will do better right up until they get jammed or have to go someplace their control signals can't reach.