Battletech Clan Invasion of UC Gundam Earth

[Balrog]

Pretty straightforward, the Clans decide it's time to do some invading, however upon arrival they discover that quite a bit has changed since the last time they were at Earth. Instead of ComStar they find the planet ruled by a new government in opposition to a space-based splinter group, the Earth Federation and the Principality of Zeon respectively, piloting strange-looking BattleMechs. With a shrug, ilKhan Leo Showers decides Earth is still their target and begins the invasion.

The Clans attack just prior to the One Year War. Can the Gundam forces unite and drive back the 'alien' invaders, or will the Clans prevail (and which one will claim the title of ilClan)?

[Stark]

What's the BT invasion force consist of? How are they arriving and landing? Can they effectively fight in free space?

[Balrog]

The invasion is composed of the same number of Clans with all their assets as in the original invasion. As far as starting point goes, they begin their invasion from outside the solar system and work from there.

[Stark]

When someone asks you what something is, pointing into the distance is not an answer.

Imagine I don't read Battletech fluff for a moment. How does your answer help me?

[Dominus Atheos]

The Clans attack just prior to the One Year War. Can the Gundam forces unite and drive back the 'alien' invaders, or will the Clans prevail (and which one will claim the title of ilClan)?

What Gundams? All that existed prior to the One Year War were Zakus, and I don't think very many of them.

Earth and Zeon get steamrolled.

[Batman]

...
Excuse me, did you just tell me that Gundam would be beaten by a force that would get their asses handed to them by real world WW2 militaries?

[Dominus Atheos]

...
Excuse me, did you just tell me that Gundam would be beaten by a force that would get their asses handed to them by real world WW2 militaries?

Fuck if I know I've only barely heard of battetech, I was only commenting on how much Gundam would suck.

[Stark]

It'd help if anyone knew what forces or force mix the BT guys bring.

[Batman]

Um-if you don't really know anything about BT, how do you KNOW Gundam would suck by comparison?

[Nephtys]

...
Excuse me, did you just tell me that Gundam would be beaten by a force that would get their asses handed to them by real world WW2 militaries?

Only if you go by silly game mechanics, like 20mm machine guns that have their bullets suddenly freeze and drop to the ground after 90 meters. Or use some weirdass contrived scenario like that they were shot at by a tertiary weapon on a main battletank. Since the shittiest Mech in the world (the prototype no less) still stomped a 20th century MBT platoon.

[Batman]

Silly game mechanics...and the entirety of the pre-FanPro novel collection. It's not MY fault the BT franchise at the time decided to use game mechanics for the novels.

[Stark]

Only if you go by silly game mechanics, like 20mm machine guns that have their bullets suddenly freeze and drop to the ground after 90 meters. Or use some weirdass contrived scenario like that they were shot at by a tertiary weapon on a main battletank. Since the shittiest Mech in the world (the prototype no less) still stomped a 20th century MBT platoon.

How is that even relevant to them being blown to shit by artillery and airstrikes? Oh wait ablative armour.

The only variable in this scenario (which dragon is apparently too stupid to clear up) is how the BT will fight in open space and if they'll even be able to make landfall.

[Eviscerator]

didnt the clans bring their Warships and stuff with them (Just In Case) and only the Turtle Bay OOPS made them promise not to use them? So since there is NO turtle bay here.... couldnt they go nuts with their Naval support?

[Ford Prefect]

What Gundams? All that existed prior to the One Year War were Zakus, and I don't think very many of them.

Earth and Zeon get steamrolled.

'Just prior to the One Year War' means that Zeon has it's entire invasion forces, which is easily hundreds or thousands of warships, tens of thousands of Zakus etc. The Earth Federation won't have any mobile suits at this point, have way more Type 55 MBTs than the Zekes have mobile suits and match it in terms of space fleet, both sides have thousands and thousands of aircraft and so on. In one week the Earth Federation and Principality of Zeon between them killed five billion people.

[CSJM]

If the OP means that the Clans' combined invasion force (they were attacking quite a lot of planets) suddenly appeared in the solar system, I think even the combined Earth forces will be beaten. WarShips are one thing, even the DropShips are fairly dangerous. And then there are the aerospace fighters. And jumpjet-equipped battlemechs. And even Elementals would be dangerous. A few Catapults can make a Macross Missile Massacre like no Gundam ever saw. If the clans all come in from different jump points, including the closer-to-the-planet ones, they'll have a very serious force spread out in such a way that defending against it will be nigh impossible.

Now, of course, I never saw the Gundam series in question (all I saw was Wing), but even if the "tens of thousands units" estimate is correct (versus the simply "thousands" I'd estimate the Clans to have, in pure battlemech terms), it may be a tough fight.

[SAMAS]

Well, we also have to take Zellbrigen into account. Against one planet, there will be a Batchall to determine who will get to make the attack (Batchall: Attack by the lowest bidder (i.e.: I can take this fight with less forces than you can)).

The first winner, expecting not only Zellbrigen, but typical Battletech numbers. It will not go well.

Simply put, with forces expecting to attack an entire galaxy, even one as under-populated/defended as the Inner Sphere, the clans will eventually wear the Federation and Zeon down unless somebody gets the idea to challenge them to a Thukkayid-style battle.

[VF5SS]

IA few Catapults can make a Macross Missile Massacre like no Gundam ever saw.

I'd really be afraid of all those missiles that do less damage per shot than a machine gun.

Now, of course, I never saw the Gundam series in question

Maybe you should. I heard it's pretty good. Enough to last 30 years and get a statue.

Honestly, going by some of the more lavishly animated productions with OYW era Mobile Suits, even Zakus have leaps and bounds more mobility than anything in Battletech. Even by the Zeta Gundam era, several OYW variations were able to mount a fair dense of Jaburo when the AEUG invaded. And in Double Zeta, a group of OYW survivors gave three top-of-the-line Mobile Suits some difficulty. And if you want to talk missiles, the attack on Abao A Qu at the end of First Gundam opened with a gigantic missile barrage from both sides.

[CSJM]

Heh, yeah, most battlemechs are essentially walking tanks. Gundams are pushing the limits on the "Real Robot" classification, with some models outright going well into "Super Robot", where battlemechs are, for the most part, elaborate turrets on legs.

Oy, and do those LRMs really do less damage per missile than a machinegun? Last I checked, LRMs are 1 damage point per missile, whereas a machinegun burst will do 2 damage. So a concentrated launch of even one LRM20 rack is like 10 machineguns firing simultaneously, and that's just within the limits of the system. A C4 Catapult has two of them. Now, how much machinegun fire does it take, on average, to destroy a Mobile Suit? In Wing, Leos were popping under HeavyArms's fire like balloons. Of course, Gundams are more resilient, but I imagine that they still won't be able to easily shrug off an LRM barrage. And they could be Streak LRMs, too. Or Inferno LRMs. Or Thunder LRMs. Battlemechs can field enough weaponry to lay down withering fire, whereas Gundams are mostly seen using one or two primary weapons. Then again, Gundams don't overheat...

Somebody should mod a Zaku into Living Legends, so we could see how it compares without all this guesswork.

[Stark]

Aren't LRMs so unguided they struggle to hit essentially stationary mechs?

This is only even open to discussion because it's only basic Zakus. The idea inventing stats for a game would prove anything is pretty sad.

[Lightning]

Lurker here. Isn't one of the problems with determining battletech capabilities is the result depends on whether one uses ground combat stats (worse then WW2), or Aerotech/space combat stats. (Considerably better.)
For example:
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums ... msg1635199

[lord Martiya]

I don't know about Battletech enough to estimates their abilities, but I know enough of Gundam to offer an estimate of what the Federation and Zeon can throw at the Clans in space.
Earth Federation Space Force: at this point in the timeline, the EFSF is mainly composed by Magellan-class battleships and Salamis-class battlecruisers, with a score of Columbus-class carriers/troopships to carry fighters and troops (the latter to invade Zeon) and missile frigates (never appeared on screen, but cited by secondary sources and works) ready to combat and possibly some Pegasus in the initial stages of construction. The exact numbers vary according to the sources, but the usual numbers about the forces used at Loum (coming from the game Gihren's Greed) are of 48 Magellans, 142/168 Salamis, 84 Columbus (most of them troop transports) and 118 missile frigates. It's usually implied this is NOT the entire force of the Federation, as some ships remained in reserve at Luna 2. Firepower figures are not presented in the original series, but the recent side-series Gundam: Igloo infers them as around 62.5 terajoules per shot for a battleship (Zeon's superweapon QCX-76A Jormungand is reported to have a firepower of 500 terajoules per shot, equivalent to eight battleship-scale shots). For the armor, the same is true: no figure ever stated, with observational data showing that beam weapons easily tears apart warships (again, the only hint comes from Gundam: Igloo when the QCX-76A Jormungand hits a Magellan and reduces it in molten slag). Federation ships are armed with many AA weapons (a Magellan carries 14 machine cannons and a Salamis 6 two-barrels machine cannons), but these weapons suffers from Minovsky particle jamming. In the end, we have the missile frigates, who carries considerable firepower showed by what little remained of Loum after the battle (all depictions of the battle of Loum shows that Zeon's ships never actually shot the colonies of Loum and the hordes of Zaku regularly shot their nukes from relatively close range, and something has to have DESTROYED Loum).
Zeon Space Attack Force: Zeon ships are Musai-class light cruisers (less armed but more agile than the Federation Salamis), Chivvay-class heavy cruisers (on par or slightly superior to the Salamis) and Gwazine-class battleships (somewhat more powerful than Magellans, and a little bigger), with some numbers of Papua cargo ships converted to MS carriers and possibly some Tivvay-class heavy cruisers (similar to the Chivvay but with no AA weapons), Zanzibar-class assault carriers, and the two Dolos-class carriers at various stages of construction. Again the exact numbers are unknown, but the entire Zeon space fleet is usually declared as outnumbered on 3-1 bases by the Federation forces that partecipated in the Battle of Loum, while Gihren's Greed suggests them as 4 Gwazines, 9 Chiways, 69 Musais and 22 Papuas (carrier variant). Zeon warships are somewhat less powerful than Federation ships of the same tonnage but considerably more agile and nimble, as built after the introduction of beam weapons (Salamis and Magellans were originally armed with slugthrowers, and so were equipped with thick armor as defence. Zeon ships were designed after, and needed armor thick enough to defend from fighter missiles and to AVOID enemy battleship fire). Another difference between Zeon and Federation ships is that Zeon ships are usually lacking in the point defence area (Chivvays and Gwazines have less machine cannons than Magellans and Salamis, and the Musai are consistently depicted as having no point defence gun at all. Indeed the only Musais with AA guns ever are a rare variant introduced during the war and, in the manga Gundam: Origins, two vessels to be upgraded in that fashion (Dozle's personal flagship Valkyrie and Char's Falmel)). After that, we have the real strenght of the Space Attack Force: the mobile suits. At this point in the timeline, Zeon's mobile suit are all MS-06 Zaku II (2600 at Loum, according to Gihren's Greed) or the earlier MS-05 Zaku (320 at Loum in Gihren's Greed). No figure is present for MS acceleration, but we know they work well under the jamming from Minovsky particle Zeon is so fond of and they carry short range tactical nukes powerful enough to take out a battleship with one or two direct hits. The most dangerous MS would be the Zaku II, as they're crewed by the best pilots like Char 'Red Comet' Aznable (whose Zaku II would soon be infamous for moving three times faster than one piloted by a normal mook, and the pilot himself has a fame as a magnificent bastard among us fans), Ramba Ral (Char's teacher, and one of the few people Char respected. That and the fact in the series he kicked Amuro's ass even more than Char's did in the initial meeting, and at point Amuro had some piloting experience from all of Chars attempt at destroying the Gundam, should tell us something about his skill), the Three Black Stars (above average pilots with a nearly uncanny ability at overwhelming everything with teamwork), Johnny Rydden (a very good and very frustrated pilot that absolutely EVERYONE but his girlfriend Kycilia Zabi and Char will mistake for the Red Comet himself (who seems unable to remember his nickname. That, or he was mocking him)), Anavel Gato (even more feared than Char, and that is telling) and Shin Matsunaga (Dozle Zabi's bodyguard, and apparently comparable to Char and Ramba Ral (in the series they covered the role of Dozle's assassins). He's infamous for his MS never being hit in the entire war, when even Char (who in combat ran around like a drunken and rabid rabbit) has been hit at least once).
Note that the Clans would be forced to fight under heavy jamming conditions: to justify the existance of mobile suits, Mobile Suit Gundam introduced the Minovsky particles, that, as a side effect of their presence, disrupts radio waves, making radar and similar detection systems useless (long range spaceship detection in the Universal Century is usually made by thermal sensors, with computers calculating if it's a MS, a ship or even a missile or beam shot from output and speed. A side effect of that is that after the war many used INFLATABLE decoys with a reactor to draw battleship fire), making all the fire very imprecise. That was the exact reason for Zeon's victory at Loum: while the EFSF had enough firepower to wipe out the Space Attack Force, they were unable to do so quickly, and under the heavy jamming their point defence wasn't accurate enough to target and destroy the MS before they nuked them.

[Norade]

Holy wall of text! Break that shit up a bit so I can read it please.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

The Battletech wiki actually describes the organisation of Clan forces.

The basic tactical formation is a Point, consisting of 1x Battlemech, 2x Aerospace Fighters, 5x Elementals, and 25x conventional infantry (5x Squads of 5). Above that is a Star, which is five Points. There is also a Nova, which contains two mixed Stars. Above them are Binaries (2x Stars or Novae), Trinaries (3x Stars or Novae) and Super Novae (2x Novae), while a Super Nova Trinary containes 3x Novae. These are in turn organised into named Clusters, which consist of 4-5 Binaries, Trinaries, or Super Novae. Galaxies consist of 3-5 Clusters.

The initial Clan invasion force consisted of elements of Clan Ghost Bear, Jade Falcon, Wolf, and Smoke Jaguar, with three additional Clans arriving later, though this was part of a political intrigue by Clan Wolf to keep the other Clans occupied (the reinforcements just happened to be old enemies of the other three starting Clans).
Clan Wolf's forces were the largest of the starting four, consisting of 17x Clusters in 5x Galaxies, all but one of the Galaxies also containing a Command Trinary, and another Command Trinary for the Wolf forces as a whole. If we go for a conservative estimate, with each Cluster consisting of 4x Binaries, each of 2x Stars, that makes for 680 Battlemechs, 1,360 Aerospace Fighters, 3,400 Elementals, and 17,000 regular infantry. This excludes the Command Trinaries.
In turn, Ghost Bear forces included 12x Clusters, Smoke Jaguar included 8x Clusters, and Jade Falcon included 11x Clusters (Command units + additionals left out as before), making for a total of 48 Clusters along with Wolf forces.
Going on the same basis, that makes 1,920 Battlemechs, 3,840 Aerospace Fighters, 9,600 Elementals, and 48,000 infantry.

These figures would imply a numerical advantage for combined EF/Zeon forces in planetary combat. Mobile Suits are particularly significant, since they can play a role in space combat also. The Clans may nonetheless have the advantage in space. WarShips (that is to say, jump-capable and heavily armed), are generally larger and heavier than their EF/Zeon counterparts. The Fredesa class Corvette is 440 metres long and weighs in at 175,000 tons. Fortunately for Gundam, the Leviathan class (1,700 metres long, 2,400,000 tons) wasn't ready for the invasion. Clan Jade Falcon deployed the largest number of WarShips at 28, most of them Aegis class (725 metres long, 750,000 tons), while Clan Wolf deployed the least, only 2.

The weapons are a tricky issue. Clan forces use lasers, autocannons, gauss weapons, particle projection weapons, and missiles, with all quantifications given in game terms (except the Gauss rifle, which is described as firing a 125 kg slug, and heavy NPPCs described as having ranges in the hundreds of kilometres). The actual destructive power of this weaponry is important, especially in space, as JumpShips and DropShips also carry weapons (generally lasers).

[lord Martiya]

Holy wall of text! Break that shit up a bit so I can read it please.

Uh... I actually can't now... I'll report my Gundam strenght assestment broken in this message.


Earth Federation Space Force: at this point in the timeline, the EFSF is mainly composed by Magellan-class battleships and Salamis-class battlecruisers, with a score of Columbus-class carriers/troopships to carry fighters and troops (the latter to invade Zeon) and missile frigates (never appeared on screen, but cited by secondary sources and works) ready to combat and possibly some Pegasus in the initial stages of construction. The exact numbers vary according to the sources, but the usual numbers about the forces used at Loum (coming from the game Gihren's Greed) are of 48 Magellans, 142/168 Salamis, 84 Columbus (most of them troop transports) and 118 missile frigates. It's usually implied this is NOT the entire force of the Federation, as some ships remained in reserve at Luna 2.
Firepower figures are not presented in the original series, but the recent side-series Gundam: Igloo infers them as around 62.5 terajoules per shot for a battleship (Zeon's superweapon QCX-76A Jormungand is reported to have a firepower of 500 terajoules per shot, equivalent to eight battleship-scale shots). For the armor, the same is true: no figure ever stated, with observational data showing that beam weapons easily tears apart warships (again, the only hint comes from Gundam: Igloo when the QCX-76A Jormungand hits a Magellan and reduces it in molten slag).
Federation ships are armed with many AA weapons (a Magellan carries 14 machine cannons and a Salamis 6 two-barrels machine cannons), but these weapons suffers from Minovsky particle jamming. In the end, we have the missile frigates, who carries considerable firepower showed by what little remained of Loum after the battle (all depictions of the battle of Loum shows that Zeon's ships never actually shot the colonies of Loum and the hordes of Zaku regularly shot their nukes from relatively close range, and something has to have DESTROYED Loum).

Zeon Space Attack Force: Zeon ships are Musai-class light cruisers (less armed but more agile than the Federation Salamis), Chivvay-class heavy cruisers (on par or slightly superior to the Salamis) and Gwazine-class battleships (somewhat more powerful than Magellans, and a little bigger), with some numbers of Papua cargo ships converted to MS carriers and possibly some Tivvay-class heavy cruisers (similar to the Chivvay but with no AA weapons), Zanzibar-class assault carriers, and the two Dolos-class carriers at various stages of construction. Again the exact numbers are unknown, but the entire Zeon space fleet is usually declared as outnumbered on 3-1 bases by the Federation forces that partecipated in the Battle of Loum, while Gihren's Greed suggests them as 4 Gwazines, 9 Chiways, 69 Musais and 22 Papuas (carrier variant).
Zeon warships are somewhat less powerful than Federation ships of the same tonnage but considerably more agile and nimble, as built after the introduction of beam weapons (Salamis and Magellans were originally armed with slugthrowers, and so were equipped with thick armor as defence. Zeon ships were designed after, and needed armor thick enough to defend from fighter missiles and to AVOID enemy battleship fire).
Another difference between Zeon and Federation ships is that Zeon ships are usually lacking in the point defence area (Chivvays and Gwazines have less machine cannons than Magellans and Salamis, and the Musai are consistently depicted as having no point defence gun at all. Indeed the only Musais with AA guns ever are a rare variant introduced during the war and, in the manga Gundam: Origins, two vessels to be upgraded in that fashion (Dozle's personal flagship Valkyrie and Char's Falmel)).
Now, we have the real strenght of the Space Attack Force: the mobile suits. At this point in the timeline, Zeon's mobile suit are all MS-06 Zaku II (2600 at Loum, according to Gihren's Greed) or the earlier MS-05 Zaku (320 at Loum in Gihren's Greed). No figure is present for MS acceleration or agility, but we know they work well under the jamming from Minovsky particle Zeon is so fond of and they carry short range tactical nukes powerful enough to take out a battleship with one or two direct hits.
The most dangerous MS type in service would be the Zaku II, as they're crewed by the best pilots like Char 'Red Comet' Aznable (whose Zaku II would soon be infamous for moving three times faster than one piloted by a normal mook, and the pilot himself has a fame as a magnificent bastard among us fans), Ramba Ral (Char's teacher, and one of the few people Char respected. That and the fact in the series he kicked Amuro's ass even more than Char's did in the initial meeting, and at point Amuro had some piloting experience from all of Chars attempt at destroying the Gundam, should tell us something about his skill), the Three Black Stars (above average pilots with a nearly uncanny ability at overwhelming everything with teamwork), Johnny Rydden (a very good and very frustrated pilot that absolutely EVERYONE but his girlfriend Kycilia Zabi and Char will mistake for the Red Comet himself (who seems unable to remember his nickname. That, or he was mocking him)), Anavel Gato (even more feared than Char, and that is telling) and Shin Matsunaga (Dozle Zabi's bodyguard, and apparently comparable to Char and Ramba Ral (in the series they covered the role of Dozle's assassins). He's infamous for his MS never being hit in the entire war, when even Char (who in combat ran around like a drunken and rabid rabbit) has been hit at least once).


Note that the Clans would be forced to fight under heavy jamming conditions: to justify the existance of mobile suits, Mobile Suit Gundam introduced the Minovsky particles, that, as a side effect of their presence, disrupts radio waves, making radar and similar detection systems useless (long range spaceship detection in the Universal Century is usually made by thermal sensors, with computers calculating if it's a MS, a ship or even a missile or beam shot from output and speed. A side effect of that is that after the war many used INFLATABLE decoys with a reactor to draw battleship fire), making all the fire very imprecise. That was the exact reason for Zeon's victory at Loum: while the EFSF had enough firepower to wipe out the Space Attack Force, they were unable to do so quickly, and under the heavy jamming their point defence wasn't accurate enough to target and destroy the MS before they nuked them.

[VF5SS]

Heh, yeah, most battlemechs are essentially walking tanks. Gundams are pushing the limits on the "Real Robot" classification, with some models outright going well into "Super Robot", where battlemechs are, for the most part, elaborate turrets on legs.

That's only because the first Mechwarrior game was made for a 286 computer and from there on the developers eschewed innovation and ease of use with "so there's a button that turns your radar off."

But I digress.