SFDebrisReview: Dalek

[Serafina]

Link
Another excellent review, again showing a good insight into the Doctors personality.
Personally, i would have liked it if a few szenes from the episode were played normally (not just the image, but also the sound etc.), but it's a great review nonetheless.

[Thanas]

Yes, me too. This felt a bit rushed, especially in light of Christopher Eccleston's great performance, which really cannot be fully appreciated without his voice work.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Eccleston will always be my favourite of the new Doctors, and Dalek will always be one of my favourite episodes. I was so happy to see this review. Must agree with Serafina and Thanas regarding this review though. The lack of scenes played along with sound was more than a tad disappointing.

[Thanas]

Eccleston will always be my favourite of the new Doctors, and Dalek will always be one of my favourite episodes.

Agreed.

[Shroom Man 777]

Indeed. He had gravitas, and his broody serious and bleak portrayal of the character, with moments of brevity in an otherwise very dark character, makes him very compelling compared to the other Doctors who look like they're hopped up on sugar and need their Ritalin or something.

Tennant's Ten got too annoying near the end with too much over-acting, and while the Matt Smith is a good character and in serious mode he can portray a very kickass Doctor, Eleven is still plagued by the same ADHDness characteristic of Ten. I mean, yes, Doctor Destro also had happy moments where he was quirky and weird, but it was all balanced and tempered by a darkness that wasn't overplayed, that was well acted, and made him a very real and empathetic character who looks like he's got the universe on his shoulders, who looks like he's got that responsibility, and isn't just some spaz. It adds more impact and emotional resonance when he does go on over-acting "badassery", it makes him so much more awesome when he finally gets back up and goes Oncoming Storm at the Daleks or whatever, and it makes it so much sweeter when he actually does have moments of laughter and silliness.

The fact that he's delivered such a great performance so understatedly, with that glowering gravitas, with just a U-boat jacket, without the need of silly red sneakers or blue suits or bowties or fezzes, just makes him so much more awesomer. The writers and directors should take that cue, man. Yeah, the Doctor's supposed to be quirky, but if they overdo it... they'll overdo it! Mang!

[Crazedwraith]

Can't say that this did the episode justice. The explanation of Daleks and the time war really needed their own video.

[Shroom Man 777]

I've been doing some thinking, and talking to Crazedwraith, and now I'm really confuzzled. Is it just nostalgia? I mean, Doctor Destro (Eccelston) portrayed a very different Doctor from Tennant's and Smith's, whose Doctors are very much alike (with Smith having more subdued serious moments where he talks quietly and looks all thinky, whereas Tennant's serious moments are ripe with over-acting and angsting), but when I think about it the stories and episodes of the various seasons aren't that different - all weirdo sci-fi stories, some with farting aliens, others with angel statues, etc.

So, I'm wondering. What made Season 1 so goddamn awesome? Was it just Doctor Destro himself? Man.

[open_sketchbook]

I think it might have sort of been that in the first season, they still felt like they had these huge shoes to fill; Doctor Who wasn't yet their own show, it was this old thing they were paying tribute to, so they tread more carefully. Now that it's established that, yes, they can Do Who, they are experimenting more, which means more hit-and-miss results.

[Stark]

Everything is different. The stories are more personal, the acting better and the humor less self-referential.

I can't even watch post S3 because it reeks of lazy plotting, unsuccessful characterization and 'zany'.

But remember, fat people don't like S1 because Rose makes them feel uncomfortable, despite that relationship being core to the entire season (and not, say, Hobbit Doctor).

[Thanas]

Everything is different. The stories are more personal, the acting better and the humor less self-referential.

I can't even watch post S3 because it reeks of lazy plotting, unsuccessful characterization and 'zany'.

Aside from the obvious trouble in the later seasons with regards to RTD's writing degrading into fanwank, what really bothered me was the execution. It is just IN YOUR FACE. Unlike S1 and to a degree S2, were it was shown rather than explained and spoonfed to you. Dalek is a great example of this.

But remember, fat people don't like S1 because Rose makes them feel uncomfortable, despite that relationship being core to the entire season (and not, say, Hobbit Doctor).

OMG. The doctor might have an emotional attachment to someone who helps him over his depression, is funny and has a pretty good character. Quick, let us complain about character development.

Too bad that then they got Martha, who was essentially Rose's arc without anything that made it interesting or relevant in the first place.

I've been doing some thinking, and talking to Crazedwraith, and now I'm really confuzzled. Is it just nostalgia? I mean, Doctor Destro (Eccelston) portrayed a very different Doctor from Tennant's and Smith's, whose Doctors are very much alike (with Smith having more subdued serious moments where he talks quietly and looks all thinky, whereas Tennant's serious moments are ripe with over-acting and angsting), but when I think about it the stories and episodes of the various seasons aren't that different - all weirdo sci-fi stories, some with farting aliens, others with angel statues, etc.

The stories, while they had weirdo elements, were logical, didn't have any egregious plot holes and cared about the character evolution of the doctor. Tennant's doctor was pretty much the same after Season 2 and instead of having character development (for example, trying to get over the loss of Rose) they had a character that essentially remained unchanged from that point on. Sure, there were some stories that tried (like Modern Family), but the great character moments are gone and the opportunities for further development were tossed aside for the sake of fanwank or ill-conceived comedy.

For example, let us just look at two opportunities for character development that turned out to be crap. The first is the return of the master. One would think that would allow enough opportunities for character development, given the history between the two. But no, instead we got Jesus Doctor. And then of course we got the Master being turned into Agent Smith 2.0.... urgh. No, just no.

The second is the return of Rose in Season 4. Given how important her character was for Nine and Ten, one would think RTD would manage to have a multi-episode arc about it. But no, instead we got two episodes, (the first being a character assassination of Donna, the second being rather idiotic) and the stupid Journey's End. What is worse is that RTD knew and admitted he was writing both her and the doctor out of character but found no way to fix it apparently without killing her character (you know, the they take off and decades later she dies of old age), which he apparently found less sane and good than "hey, here is a clone. Now have fun while I go all emo".

[Stark]

The Master was a real missed opportunity, because Utopia had such a transformation of the Doctor due to the personal relationship; then we got a two-parter of stupidity full of DEMs and bad acting. Tennant could definately work quality material, at least in S3.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think it might also have something to do with the amount of time they had to prepare. They got the go-ahead and did season 1, but I don't think they knew if they were going to get a season 2. So they went all out and made it awesome.

I certainly agree that Nine is my fave of the new doctors, but I think his character wouldn't have worked much beyond one season. The whole "I'm sad about the time war" probably wouldn't have worked as well if they'd done it again.

[Stark]

Are you saying that given more money and time, quality decreases?

It's stunning that you think Eccleston had nowhere to go with the character that just had an epiphany. That's like saying there's nowhere to do after Doctor Dances because he cheered up. Jesus.

[Zor]

If you look at the thread on SD.net about it, one thing that people seemed to have a hard time with in regards to this episode were the Daleks was that a fair number of people did not like it or said what they did not like was the emotional aspects of the Daleks, refering to them as mushy.

That said, even though i Like Dalek, the best Dalek Episodes of the New Series were the ones set in Manhattan in the 1930s for the ways they used them.

Zor

[Stark]

Can you translate that into fucking English, please? Did people not like the emotional aspects of the Dalek or the episode?

[Thanas]

That said, even though i Like Dalek, the best Dalek Episodes of the New Series were the ones set in Manhattan in the 1930s for the ways they used them.

[Ilya Muromets]

The fact that he's delivered such a great performance so understatedly, with that glowering gravitas, with just a U-boat jacket, without the need of silly red sneakers or blue suits or bowties or fezzes, just makes him so much more awesomer. The writers and directors should take that cue, man. Yeah, the Doctor's supposed to be quirky, but if they overdo it... they'll overdo it! Mang!

Having watched quite a few series from the old series, I gotta say that bowties, red sneakers, and fezzes are remarkably restrained compared to the flamboyant silliness of the costumes of the Doctors of the old series, mang. Mostly from the third to the seventh.

Not that I don't agree with the points on Eccleston, because I do. He was a very well portrayed character, and you really got a sense that he was a veteran going through survivor's guilt, while still being capable of silly moments.

[Big Orange]

But at least one thing is for sure, the bronze Time War Daleks introduced by Russell T. Davies were convincing as evil war machines of hate, with one lone survivor from the Time War being a threat to the entire world; less campy than the Fisher Price Daleks that Moffat unveiled in "Victory of the Daleks". But here's some interesting Dalek designs by video game artist, Niklas Jansson:



Link

[Shroom Man 777]

Having watched quite a few series from the old series, I gotta say that bowties, red sneakers, and fezzes are remarkably restrained compared to the flamboyant silliness of the costumes of the Doctors of the old series, mang. Mostly from the third to the seventh.

Not that I don't agree with the points on Eccleston, because I do. He was a very well portrayed character, and you really got a sense that he was a veteran going through survivor's guilt, while still being capable of silly moments.

Yeah, but it wasn't just the costumes man. It's the writing, and how they wrote the Doctor, which in a way also manifests in their costumes. I don't know how the old series Doctors were written, but it's like every episode of the new new series has the Doctor goofing off and being silly and being so quirky. I know you leik your quirk, but I think they really have to tone it down a bit, 'cause I mean they're having the Doctor act like a flashy weirdo British Ace Ventura all the time, man, being so witty and gitty whatever. Man, you can just imagine Doctor Destro taking a good look at his later versions and going

If you look at the thread on SD.net about it, one thing that people seemed to have a hard time with in regards to this episode were the Daleks was that a fair number of people did not like it or said what they did not like was the emotional aspects of the Daleks, refering to them as mushy.

That said, even though i Like Dalek, the best Dalek Episodes of the New Series were the ones set in Manhattan in the 1930s for the ways they used them.

Zor

You must've seen a randome altarnate realty version of those episodes, Zor. From a hippotheticel senareo.

I never saw that Dalek thread since I watched DW sometime after, on a DVD. But Dalek is easily one of the new show's best episodes. Whereas Daleks in Manhattan, with the pig slaves, and Dalek Sec turning into a "human dalek" (muhahahahaha), and all sorts of stuff was... eh.

[MKSheppard]

At first, the whole U-Boat Doctor thing put me off; but Doctor DESTROOOO was pretty good; and remarkably understated compared to what little of Tennant's ADHD doctor on crack I saw before nBSG aired on SciFi.

One of DESTRO DOCTORS best lines I think was:

"This time, everybody lives!"

[Big Orange]

Christopher Eccleston is that kind of actor that always raises the material; he was one reason why G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra was less eye gouging than Transformers 2, in spite of the lousy writing and rushed/dated CGI. Also his regeneration scene had the right amount of emotion, without going too overboard like the self-pitying Tennant and frightened Davison.

However I still don't get what was so genuinely disastrous about the Tennant era when it was, by most accounts, highly successful and popular. Rick Berman era Star Trek is now long dead and the Stargate franchise on TV as we’ve known it likely finished as well, with the majority of recent US sci-fi shows crashing n’ burning after a comparatively brief one to two season run (like FlashForward, The Sarah Connor Chronicles, and Dollhouse), in comparison Doctor Who under the stewardship of Rusty did very well. With a primetime slot, millions of viewers, and tons of awards. A lot of people here seem to be in the vocal minority and while they're free express their opinion, have not been vidicated in any meaningful way and have not won anything tangible.

“Daleks in Manhattan”-“Evolution of the Daleks” was without doubt the lowest point of Season 3, a toxic mix of stupidity and tedium, with one gaping plothole after another (why didn’t Dalek Caan not flip the kill-switch the nano-second their Dalek DNA infused Robomen started firing upon his colleagues, etc?). But different strokes for different folks I guess and Zor can watch it, without really affecting me. I don't know why some people got a bug up their backside about the Jesus Doctor, as silly as it was, when there was always an element of religion to RTD's sci-fi/fantasy work, when he wrote The Second Coming and there was a strong religious flavour to "The Parting of the Ways". RTD is more into the Bible while Moffat is more into Grimm's fairy tales, and so Moffat's not immune to silly plot conclusions (like Amy wishing the Doctor and his TARDIS back into existance in "The Big Bang").

Personally the only aspect of NuWho I've been genuinely unhappy with so-far is the first two seasons of Torchwood with harder to ignore shitty writing and genuinely unlikable characters. And people seem to forget what a complete twat Rose Tyler was in Season 2: she was far too pleased with herself and acting in a rather arrogant manner towards a lot of people on her trip with the Tenth Doctor. That’s a significant reason why I think Season 3, despite its problems and RTD peaking as a show runner, is the best Tennant season by a narrow margin, bolstered of course by "Blink" and "Human Nature"-"The Family of Blood". And at least Martha Jones was never quite the smug, self-satisfied bitch that Rose became in S2.

Season 4 suffered a lot from story/formula repetition and so was weaker than the first three seasons as a result, yet Season 4 has episodes that are roughly comparable to “Dalek” in terms of acting/writing/directing, episodes such as “The Fires of Pompeii”, “Silence in the Library”-“Forest of the Dead”, “Midnight”, and "Turn Left", so disregarding all of Season 4 would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Other S4 episodes like “Partners in Crime”, “Planet of the Ood”, “The Sontaran Stratagem” are not excellent, but not awful either and entertaining for what they are. The only things I can firmly agree about is the general pointlessness of Rose Tyler and that earlier RTD episodes episodes such as “Aliens of London”, “The Long Game”, “Boomtown”, “Tooth & Claw” and “Love & Monsters” are better scripted and more subtle than “The Stolen Earth”-“Journey’s End” clusterfuck.

Also some people need to lighten up about other reasonably entertaining UK sci-fi shows like Ashes to Ashes and Primeval, but I agree about the other spate of UK inspired sci-fi shows not being up to much: Survivors was OK in its first season but for the most part just dull after that, Robin Hood was relentlessly Politically Correct, Hyperdrive just didn’t work save for a few exceptions, Demons bombed in its first episode, The Prisoner vanished up its backside, and the less said about Bonekickers the better.

Russell T. Davies and David Tennant left Doctor Who at the right time, and I'm so-far very pleased with Matt Smith and mostly OK with Steven Moffat, but they too are inevitably not going to please everyone either. Here's a good magazine article on Rusty vs. the Grand Moff:

[Thanas]

However I still don't get what was so genuinely disastrous about the Tennant era when it was, by most accounts, highly successful and popular.

Oh FFS, not this again. We already went over this several times and you still pull out the old appeal to popularity fallacy.

A lot of people here seem to be in the vocal minority and while they're free express their opinion, have not been vidicated in any meaningful way and have not won anything tangible.

I hear Roger Ebert is unable to criticize stuff now because he has not won an Academy Award. Oh wait, just another stupid appeal to popularity.

“Daleks in Manhattan”-“Evolution of the Daleks” was without doubt the lowest point of Season 3, a toxic mix of stupidity and tedium, with one gaping plothole after another (why didn’t Dalek Caan not flip the kill-switch the nano-second their Dalek DNA infused Robomen started firing upon his colleagues, etc?).

Which is why you rated the first 4/5 and the later 3/5, right? A toxic mix of stupidity and tedium is a 4/5 for you?

And people seem to forget what a complete twat Rose Tyler was in Season 2: she was far too pleased with herself and acting in a rather arrogant manner towards a lot of people on her trip with the Tenth Doctor.

What?

That’s a significant reason why I think Season 3, despite its problems and RTD peaking as a show runner, is the best Tennant season by a narrow margin, bolstered of course by "Blink" and "Human Nature"-"The Family of Blood". And at least Martha Jones was never quite the smug, self-satisfied bitch that Rose became in S2.

Really now? You mean the one who decided to get herself into trouble the most idiotic way in S4 was not smug? Besides, she was basically Rose 2.0 at that point anyway.

, yet Season 4 has episodes that are roughly comparable to “Dalek” in terms of acting/writing/directing, episodes such as “The Fires of Pompeii”, “Silence in the Library”-“Forest of the Dead”, “Midnight”, and "Turn Left", so disregarding all of Season 4 would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Really now? Really? I might give you midnight, but turn Left - the character assassination episode of Donna - and the rest are nowhere near as good.

The only things I can firmly agree about is the general pointlessness of Rose Tyler and that earlier RTD episodes episodes such as “Aliens of London”, “The Long Game”, “Boomtown”, “Tooth & Claw” and “Love & Monsters” are better scripted and more subtle than

I see that even after four years you are not getting why Rose was important in the first place and you still continue your ridiculous "DEFEND RTD" tour.

“The Stolen Earth”-“Journey’s End” clusterfuck.

A clusterfuck, eh?

I give this insanely ludicrous RTD blowout aa 5/5, bitches, so push me down a Dalek owned mineshaft.

Says it all, really.