Protoss vs Galactic Empire

[jamsy42]

Okay here's the situation: The Protoss are messing around with some Xel naga artifact and open a wormhole (so creative) to the SW universe, somewhere in the Mid Rim. The Empire decides to be its usual self and tries to conquer the Protoss.

The Protoss here are from not long after their initial contact with the zerg. So the Dark Templar are still unknown(no sneaky assassinations of the Emperor), Aiur is intact but their war machine has swung fully into action.(meaning Reavers etc ).

The Galactic Empire is around about 2 years Pre-Battle of Yavin.

Basically this is pitting the two empires up against each other at their height. What would be the result of such a match-up? Note: No Zerg or Terrans getting involved.

[fgalkin]

The Protoss get steamrolled and become just another alien world no one cares about?

Have a very nice day
-fgalkin

[jamsy42]

The Protoss get steamrolled and become just another alien world no one cares about?

Have a very nice day
-fgalkin

I appreciate your contribution.

[Guardsman Bass]

He's right, though, at least from what we can discern from Starcraft's rather limited opportunities to quantify Protoss abilities. The Protoss are few in numbers and forces, overly centralized around a single planet, and not particularly powerful compared to an Empire that can wield the resources of a galaxy and millions of worlds.

[Panzersharkcat]

Curbstomp battle. The Protoss are mercilessly crushed. All hail the Emperor!

[Imperial528]

At this point the Protoss just aren't ready for war, they're extremely advanced but not warlike. Their old weapons (Motherships, Colossi, etc) will still be in storage, and quite frankly, they don't like war either. This really isn't the height of the Protoss, at least militarily, that would be right after their civil war, when they had all of their weapons, their fleet was equiped for war, and all that.

What advantages they do have over the Empire, they don't have the industry to employ on the needed scale. Their best chance is to simply destroy the wormhole before the Empire manages to get a foothold.

It's not known how far their reach goes as far as colonies, but as has been said, Aiur really is the heart of their civilization. Their government is there, their best shipyards, forges, and military training is done there. They really just lose due to the industrial gap. The only real solace for the Protoss is that the Empire will steam roll the Zerg next, and the Zerg aren't good at hiding.

Now, the neighboring Confederacy will probably jump at the first chance to help the Empire destroy the Protoss, since you know, they're both xenophobic humans. But OP wants to be boring.

[Srelex]

How about the Protoss vs a single Imperial sector?

[Imperial528]

I think that would fare better for them, since there wouldn't be any major industrial discrepancy.

Since we have no exact figures on Protoss warship firepower, or at least any solid ones I am aware of, I can't say how a fleet engagement would go. On the ground, however, I am confident the Protoss would have victory secured, since the Protoss ground forces posses superior firepower to Imperial ground forces, at least as far as infantry and light armor goes. I don't know how Protoss ground forces would fare against Imperial heavy armor, though, especially since in this time period the colossus walkers are still hidden in storage.

[Balrog]

That's still thousands of combat ships and millions of soldiers, assuming this is a bare bones sector force. And the Imperials, for all their military design faults, still understand the basics like "arm your soldiers with more than energy knives" and "artillery can be good." Protoss don't even know how to use their own technology to its potential (see: SC2 and Raynor's gas extractor upgrade using Protoss tech).

[Imperial528]

Ah, I had forgotten how large a sector force was. Although, since this is before the fall of Aiur and the destruction of the Protoss fleet, I can see them still having a chance. It seems that the Protoss would have to fight using hit-and-run tactics, which I doubt they would be too keen on doing.

I would like to note that for what seems to be retarded military doctrine on the side of the Protoss, the military forces seen in the original StarCraft are their peacetime military. They've been at peace for hundreds if not thousands of years, hell, the reaver is actually a civilian design converted to manufacture and shoot bombs.

Protoss don't even know how to use their own technology to its potential (see: SC2 and Raynor's gas extractor upgrade using Protoss tech).

The automated gas refinery? I don't see where you're going with this, since it's really just a game play thing (the gas magically enters your storage), and in-universe the Protoss wouldn't exactly benefit from that, since they already have an automated workforce. Terrans benefit because it means they can assign workers that would normally be harvesting gas to do something else, whereas the Protoss would merely build more probes.

[Srelex]

How are a Zealot's shields rated at? In the Frontline comics they casually shrug off Hydralisk spines IIRC, which are apparently monomolecular and travel fast enough to be able to effective against aircraft.

[Sidewinder]

How are a Zealot's shields rated at? In the Frontline comics they casually shrug off Hydralisk spines IIRC, which are apparently monomolecular and travel fast enough to be able to effective against aircraft.

What's the Hydralisk spines' rate-of-fire? Yes, it's possible a Zealot's shields can shrug off a turbolaser beam, but turbolasers are rapid fire weapons- I doubt the Zealot shrug off a turbolaser VOLLEY.

[Serafina]

How are a Zealot's shields rated at? In the Frontline comics they casually shrug off Hydralisk spines IIRC, which are apparently monomolecular and travel fast enough to be able to effective against aircraft.

What's the Hydralisk spines' rate-of-fire? Yes, it's possible a Zealot's shields can shrug off a turbolaser beam, but turbolasers are rapid fire weapons- I doubt the Zealot shrug off a turbolaser VOLLEY.

Uhm - WHAT?

Even a light turbolaser has kilotons of firepower. You know, like those two nuclear bombs that were actually used to destroy two cities. How is that even remotely comparable to a Hydralisks spine spikes?

At best Protoss will be highly resistant, possibly immune, to Star Wars small arms fire and lighter vehicle weapons. However, that is highly unlikely, given that they can be at least somewhat threatened by human ground troops, who are hardly using that much firepower.

Besides, do NOT use gameplay mechanics to determine capabilities. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that a couple of Marines can bring down a starship that can transport hundreds or thousand of marines and is firing compressed nuclear weapons.

[Sarevok]

How are a Zealot's shields rated at? In the Frontline comics they casually shrug off Hydralisk spines IIRC, which are apparently monomolecular and travel fast enough to be able to effective against aircraft.

What kind of aircraft ?

Because the original 1903 Wright Flier that barely flew a hundred meters was also an aircraft.

[Serafina]

How are a Zealot's shields rated at? In the Frontline comics they casually shrug off Hydralisk spines IIRC, which are apparently monomolecular and travel fast enough to be able to effective against aircraft.

What kind of aircraft ?

Because the original 1903 Wright Flier that barely flew a hundred meters was also an aircraft.

More importantly, at what altitude?
We have lot's of AA-guns that can shoot down planes if the planes choose to fly low.

Being able to shoot down aircraft in the game itself doesn't really say anything. At best it tells us that this unit can engage air units flying at a low altitude. It also tells us nothing about it's firepower.
If you want to get any firepower calculations, look at the cutscenes, not at the gameplay.

[Srelex]

Uh, yeah--with that example I did point out I was using the comics, which are better than using gameplay I imagine.

With that said, Protoss heavy firepower appears to be delivered via aircraft, and I can't think of an out-of-game quantification for them.

[fgalkin]

The Protoss get steamrolled and become just another alien world no one cares about?

Have a very nice day
-fgalkin

I appreciate your contribution.

The Galactic Empire has some twelve million worlds under its control. The Protoss have...one. You tell me how this will end.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Imperial528]

The Protoss likely have several dozens of worlds under their control, definitely more than the Terrans. Where did you get the idea that they have just one? The Tal'darim, a fringe group that broke off when sometime after Aiur fell, has control over more than five worlds, and you think that the majority of the Protoss would control one planet?

[Simon_Jester]

I would expect Protoss personal shields to hold up fairly well against Star Wars small arms fire, for short periods- a Zealot might actually be reasonably dangerous in Star Wars combat as long as they're employed intelligently, in close quarters where heavy armor support can't just flatten them.

One way we can look at Protoss naval firepower is by their planetary bombardments: Tassadar's fleet "burned" several Zerg-infested worlds intensely enough to totally destroy the infestation, despite the Zerg's known penchant for tunneling and ability to survive in very hostile environments (like Char).

But yeah, the industrial and logistical gap here is enormous.

...

Imp528, you're missing something. While the Protoss do indisputably control multiple planets, Aiur is far and away the most important, to the point where no other Protoss-settled world shows any significance in Starcraft I, at the very least. So much of their industrial and logistical capability is based from Aiur (based on the fate of the Protoss after Aiur falls) that we can't assume the Protoss "empire" is all that much larger than what can be supported from Aiur alone.

Of course, with their widespread use of teleportation, it's possible that their resource extraction base is spread much wider than that, with the resources of dozens of worlds being concentrated on the major industrial centers of Aiur. But it's very improbable that they have the scale needed to meaningfully oppose a fully colonized and hostile galaxy.

[Imperial528]

Yes, but to assume that Aiur is their only world is ludicrous. While it is definitely their most developed, the fact that they are still a power as of StarCraft II shows that their other colonies can pick up the load. I personally believe that the fall of Aiur harmed them so badly because their entire government was destroyed during it, along with most of their fleet.

[Balrog]

The automated gas refinery? I don't see where you're going with this, since it's really just a game play thing

I suggest you read the fluff description then, where it talks about how it uses the Protoss' own teleportation tech to do this and, to paraphrase, "we don't know why the Protoss don't do this themselves, maybe they're just stupid?" But yeah, I guess it is better to just build more Probes to harvest the gas rather than have it beamed right into the Nexus and cut out an expensive middle step.

Anyways, here's some quotes from the original manual, since this is pertinent to the debate.

Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel'Naga.

Warp Gates
The Protoss are a meticulous species, and their manufacturing techniques and tools have been developed over generations by Khalai workers. Protoss structures are produced on the Protoss Homeworld of Aiur. Robotic Probes use special warp beacons to provide an anchor and entry point for a special warp gate that brings in the fully functional building from Aiur. This allows the Protoss to quickly establish a base once they have created a Psionic Matrix.

Psionic Matrix
Protoss buildings and units, to a lesser extent, draw their energy from a great psionic energy matrix that emanates from Aiur. While the Nexus provides a link to this matrix, Pylons are needed to actually tap into the energy required to provide Psionic energy (Psi) to new colonies.

Gateway
The swirling rift at the center of the massive Gateway is where the highly trained Protoss ground troops can be warped in from their Homeworld of Aiur.

Assimilator
Protoss buildings and equipment are mostly produced on Aiur and warped to wherever they are needed. Raw materials, however, are still required both for shipment to the Homeworld and the creation of the warp rifts used to bring in new items. Vespene gas is as prized by the Protoss as it is by the Terrans. The Assimilator processes and packages the gas produced at any geyser it is constructed over.

Robotics Facility
The Protoss rely on automated war machines to bolster their numbers and avoid the loss of Protoss life. While the Robotics Facility manufactures these vehicles, other buildings are required to expand its capabilities.

Stargate
The mighty warships of the Protoss fleet require a much stronger warp link than the Gateway provides. The immense Stargate is capable of calling ships from high orbit around Aiur to distant planet surfaces.

So the Protoss do have some extensive holdings, however while they can have production facilities on other planets the majority of their industry and forces are drawn from Aiur, as is the ability to power their technology. In a way it's like Dune.

[lordofchange13]

Would the protoss' warping unit tech be effective against Imperial ships? They could the old Borg strategy, teleport soldiers on ship, take ship, arm lasers. Also the protoss have at least limited ability with singularity based weapons, though I'm not sure how Imperial shields hold up to massive gravity fields. But the protoss may get a few wins here and there but the empire's military even of a single sector far out number their ships. plus there weapons seem to be of a lower TNT yield.

[Imperial528]

Every type of Protoss long-range teleportation I've seen so far requires something at the destination point. Blink-teleporters could probably do it, since nothing I'm aware of can jam Protoss teleporters, but the problem is that you'd need to be literally on the hull, and you'd have to know what's inside. It'd be easier to slip cloaked transports in and hope for the best.

Protoss fleet weapon yields aren't down to solid numbers, due to lack of solid evidence, and the only good indicator of firepower I know of is for the bombardments, since we know that the world of Chau Sara had its atmosphere burned off during Protoss cleansing of the planet.

It would be very interesting what the Mothership vortex weapon would do to Imperial ships, though.

[Simon_Jester]

The automated gas refinery? I don't see where you're going with this, since it's really just a game play thing

I suggest you read the fluff description then, where it talks about how it uses the Protoss' own teleportation tech to do this and, to paraphrase, "we don't know why the Protoss don't do this themselves, maybe they're just stupid?" But yeah, I guess it is better to just build more Probes to harvest the gas rather than have it beamed right into the Nexus and cut out an expensive middle step.

Question: is installing a teleporter in the refinery actually cheaper than having a few robots carry the stuff to the Nexus in 55-gallon drums?

This is not a trivial question- even in-game, building one of those teleporter-containing buildings (warp gates of various types) costs a lot more than building one drone.

In a combat zone (where having all steps in the extraction process occur inside a heavily armored building is useful), or when the supply of drones is sharply limited by other factors than cost, it might be worth it. But it's not necessarily more efficient for someone who isn't extracting vespene gas under combat conditions and suffering from arbitrary manpower caps imposed by game mechanics.

[lordofchange13]

Every type of Protoss long-range teleportation I've seen so far requires something at the destination point. Blink-teleporters could probably do it, since nothing I'm aware of can jam Protoss teleporters, but the problem is that you'd need to be literally on the hull, and you'd have to know what's inside. It'd be easier to slip cloaked transports in and hope for the best.

But The normal Blind teleporters are put on weak one maned robots. would not the teleporters used in space ships be of better quality. But you having to know whats inside wouldn't be a problem, Imperial star destroyers aren't exactly scanning proof.