Cybermen on Valakis (from Dear Doctor) during Enterprise era

[Rossum]

Okay, shortly after the events of Dear Doctor where Phlox and Archer pat themselves on the back for allowing a whole civilization (who might have been allies) to die horrible pointless deaths by keeping a medical cure from them, the Valakians send out another ship to look for help... and find the badly damaged remains of the Cyber King from the Doctor Who Christmas Special "The Next Doctor".

The Cyber King is a giant robot that also apparently has space faring capabilities... but what's more important is the built-in Cyber Factory that is designed to convert humanoids into Cybermen and manufacture all the mechanical parts as well. In the episode in question, the Doctor claims that the factory would be able to convert millions.

The Valakins examine the ship and see its cybernetic crew have all been rendered inoperable, but they are sure they could learn alot from the technology. They bring the ship back and have their greatest scientists examine it. They manage to get some of the cybermen operational again who then assist in explaining how the machine works and what it does.

With a bit of work, the cybermen and the Valakin government find they can convert sick Valakins into three different types of cybermen:

The really old school cybermen with the bulky life support systems on the outside of their bodies. These ones don't seem so much as evil as a sign of how desperate measures can be taken to ensure survival.

The later cybermen who have silver bodysuits and the helmets with the handlebars on them. These cybermen are more advanced and uniform while retaining personalities and such, but the programming is more militant in nature. Have a weakness to gold for some reason.

And the Cybus Cybermen from the new series, heavily armored mechanical bodies with the brain preserved in a vat of chemicals. These cybermen are less people than robots with a bit of organic computing material in them, pretty much all emotion and personality has been removed via suppression chips and the brain has the nasty habit of exploding if the circuitry is overloaded or disabled for some reason. Cybus Cybermen are heavily militant in their actions and seem solely dedicated to turning people into more cybermen.



So, the Valakins have a potential path to survival, the cybermen have pretty much a whole civilization willing to be cyber converted, and the Federation probably won't be coming this way again for a while. The questions here are:

1). What sort of cybermen would the Valakins most likely seek to become?

2). What sort of civilization would the Valakin Cybermen look like (including the question of what happens to the Menk)?

3). How would the cybermen fare against the Federation and other nearby civilizations? Lets assume the cybermen computer intelligence lets them whip up a primitive sort of warp drive and they can produce more Cyber Kings to attack planets if they desire.

and

4). How would everyone react if it was discovered that the Federation willingly withheld a medical cure to a dying civilization that let them get so desperate as to give a race of militant cyborgs a willing foothold in the quadrant?

[NecronLord]

The later cybermen who have silver bodysuits and the helmets with the handlebars on them. These cybermen are more advanced and uniform while retaining personalities and such, but the programming is more militant in nature. Have a weakness to gold for some reason.

1). What sort of cybermen would the Valakins most likely seek to become?

Those ones, see above.

2). What sort of civilization would the Valakin Cybermen look like (including the question of what happens to the Menk)?

The New Cyber Race will look exactly like the old Cyber Race. That's kind of the point.

3). How would the cybermen fare against the Federation and other nearby civilizations? Lets assume the cybermen computer intelligence lets them whip up a primitive sort of warp drive and they can produce more Cyber Kings to attack planets if they desire.

The Federation will most likely never be formed. Soon the Alpha and Beta quadrants would be swarming with cybermen.

and

4). How would everyone react if it was discovered that the Federation willingly withheld a medical cure to a dying civilization that let them get so desperate as to give a race of militant cyborgs a willing foothold in the quadrant?

That won't come out, because very soon, everything will be cyber-converted.

Seriously, the relative difference between the cybermen, a rather dangerous Dr Who antagonist, and anything in Star Trek short of god races is insurmountable. These are guys that require grenades to kill reliably.

[AMT]

Seriously, the relative difference between the cybermen, a rather dangerous Dr Who antagonist, and anything in Star Trek short of god races is insurmountable. These are guys that require grenades to kill reliably.

You're seriously suggesting that Trek firepower isn't stronger than current day grenades? Seriously? At the very least Enterprise era ships can Photonic Torpedo Cybermen ships and positions, if need be. And that's not counting the Klingons and other powers of the time, should the Cybermen spread.

Hell, Steampunk Alt-Verse Who Earth was able to defeat the Cybermen, the Trek verse should be able to do the same.

[NecronLord]

Trek Hand Weapon firepower does not compare with modern grenades.

They are cybermen, they will come with cyber-ships (gotta love how they put 'cyber' in front of everything). The OP mentions that the Mondas (old series) cybermen have their original programming, as such, they will know how to build man-portable bombs capable of shattering entire worlds (Revenge of the Cybermen, Attack of the Cybermen) - firepower more than ten orders of magnitude greater than anything the UFP will possess, even in centuries time.

[AMT]

Trek Hand Weapon firepower does not compare with modern grenades.

I disagree with the modern grenades bit. Phase Pistols have been shown capable of cutting through solid rock (Terra Nova, Civilization) and can be set to explode with a force stronger than a grenade (United).

With modifications (unknown how much--Regeneration) a phase pistol can produce 10 megajoules of energy output, though for how long is unknown.

I'd say that's a little more damaging than a modern hand grenade.

Edit: In addition, Phase Rifles can shoot through an unprotected human, showing decent penetrating power. I'd say again, at least comparable to a hand grenade.

[Darth Tedious]

With modifications (unknown how much--Regeneration) a phase pistol can produce 10 megajoules of energy output, though for how long is unknown.

Joules are a measure of total energy output, not energy output over time (that would be Watts).

10 Megajoules is equivalent to an explosive power of 0.002390057 Tons.
Which would equal 4.780114 lbs of TNT.

An MK3A2 offensive hand grenade contains a payload of 4.94 lbs of TNT.

So, 10 megajoules is slightly shy of that particular modern grenade.
There are more powerful grenades available.

Source for explosive net weight of the MK3A2 (see Table 2 of the document)

[AMT]

With modifications (unknown how much--Regeneration) a phase pistol can produce 10 megajoules of energy output, though for how long is unknown.

Joules are a measure of total energy output, not energy output over time (that would be Watts).

10 Megajoules is equivalent to an explosive power of 0.002390057 Tons.
Which would equal 4.780114 lbs of TNT.

An MK3A2 offensive hand grenade contains a payload of 4.94 lbs of TNT.

So, 10 megajoules is slightly shy of that particular modern grenade.
There are more powerful grenades available.

Source for explosive net weight of the MK3A2 (see Table 2 of the document)

The difference of course being that the phase pistol is sustained while a grenade is a one time energy expulsion. The difference between them (if your math is right, I'll assume it is) would again favor the phase pistol being stronger, since it doesn't just fire once then die.

[Darth Tedious]

The difference of course being that the phase pistol is sustained while a grenade is a one time energy expulsion.

I think you missed the point about joules vs. Watts- the entire sustained fire of the phase pistol equals 10 megajoules in total (if it were a per second measure of energy, it would be Watts).

The difference between them (if your math is right, I'll assume it is) would again favor the phase pistol being stronger, since it doesn't just fire once then die.

A very good point. My comparison was only in relation to the energy output, not the overall performance of the weapon.

Another point in favour of the phase pistol is that it delivers its energy unidirectionally, with (minus any amount of energy lost as a result of passing through the air) all power delivered to the target.
The grenade, on the other hand, explodes omnidirectionally, with its energy being distributed roughly evenly (meaning it will only impart full force to the target if it explodes inside it).

So...
You're actually quite right. 10 megajoules delivered from a phase pistol will impart more energy to a specific target than an MK3A2 grenade will. My bad.

You should go with my calcs, I'm pretty sure they're sound, and they prove your point!

I'd better go do the maths for a more powerful grenade...

[AMT]

The difference of course being that the phase pistol is sustained while a grenade is a one time energy expulsion.

I think you missed the point about joules vs. Watts- the entire sustained fire of the phase pistol equals 10 megajoules in total (if it were a per second measure of energy, it would be Watts).

You're right, I did. I think the writers did as well in the episode, but eh, can't do anything about that.

So...
You're actually quite right. 10 megajoules delivered from a phase pistol will impart more energy to a specific target than an MK3A2 grenade will. My bad.

You should go with my calcs, I'm pretty sure they're sound, and they prove your point!

I'd better go do the maths for a more powerful grenade...

I'd go with C4 myself. That can provide a little more bang for the buck. Though I would like to try and quantify the phase pistol explosion on the Romulan Drone Ship from United. It seemed pretty energetic and might be a better qualifier on explosive power.

[NecronLord]

With modifications (unknown how much--Regeneration) a phase pistol can produce 10 megajoules of energy output, though for how long is unknown.

That's a one off unrepeated weapon used by a named character in a single instance, then forgotten about and never used again. Most likely the modification was so severe that it damaged the weapon after brief use, rendering it unsuitable for wide deployment. It may of course, have given the users cancer (do we know what those characters died of in the end?) by releasing more radiation than the components can shield the user. Regardless, it was never used again.

A standard TNG phaser rifle has an output of 1.05 megawatts (TNG, Power Play) most shots do not last a full second. By your own numbers, that is less than a tenth of the power of a modern grenade, which are generally required to kill mondas cybermen. And that's a rifle literally centuries more advanced.

[AMT]

With modifications (unknown how much--Regeneration) a phase pistol can produce 10 megajoules of energy output, though for how long is unknown.

That's a one off unrepeated weapon used by a named character in a single instance, then forgotten about and never used again. Most likely the modification was so severe that it damaged the weapon after brief use, rendering it unsuitable for wide deployment. It may of course, have given the users cancer (do we know what those characters died of in the end?) by releasing more radiation than the components can shield the user. Regardless, it was never used again.

A standard TNG phaser rifle has an output of 1.05 megawatts (TNG, Power Play) most shots do not last a full second. By your own numbers, that is less than a tenth of the power of a modern grenade, which are generally required to kill mondas cybermen. And that's a rifle literally centuries more advanced.

Which only means that the later Phasers are not as energetic as previous phase pistols? Why? Bad writing, or if you want to technobabble it, the later phase does damage through a different means then direct energy transfer. Does it matter? No. Enterprise Phase Pistols have been shown to be able to use that kind of power, even if just a one off, and have shown penetrating power capable of blasting through solid rock or humans, and, when set to explode, damage a drone ship.

All of which points to Enterprise era hand weapons affecting Mondas Cybermen. The capability is there and has been shown and stated within the show itself.

[AMT]

Ghetto Edit: As for future eras, if the gold weakness is found out (and the disintegrate settings on TNG era phasers doesn't work because of... fiat.) then all they have to do is replicate mass amounts of gold and gold dust, since it seems gold alone is not a rare commodity in the universe (requiring bonding to latinum to have any financial impact)

[Darth Tedious]

How long was fire sustained for in ENT:'Regenration'? We could work out the wattage, just for shits and giggles.

And by the way....

A standard TNG phaser rifle has an output of 1.05 megawatts (TNG, Power Play) most shots do not last a full second. By your own numbers, that is less than a tenth of the power of a modern grenade, which are generally required to kill mondas cybermen. And that's a rifle literally centuries more advanced.

Those were my numbers!
/shakes fist

[NecronLord]

Ghetto Edit: As for future eras, if the gold weakness is found out (and the disintegrate settings on TNG era phasers doesn't work because of... fiat.) then all they have to do is replicate mass amounts of gold and gold dust, since it seems gold alone is not a rare commodity in the universe (requiring bonding to latinum to have any financial impact)

Enjoy fifty planet-killing missiles to the face.

The glitter gun idea worked for Whoniverse human empires because they had equiv-tech space ships. Star Trek doesn't. In fact, one full fledged cyber ship would suffice to exterminate them all.

[AMT]

Ghetto Edit: As for future eras, if the gold weakness is found out (and the disintegrate settings on TNG era phasers doesn't work because of... fiat.) then all they have to do is replicate mass amounts of gold and gold dust, since it seems gold alone is not a rare commodity in the universe (requiring bonding to latinum to have any financial impact)

Enjoy fifty planet-killing missiles to the face.

The glitter gun idea worked for Whoniverse human empires because they had equiv-tech space ships. Star Trek doesn't. In fact, one full fledged cyber ship would suffice to exterminate them all.

I never denied that Mondas Cybermen would likely win. I just had an issue with you saying Trek weapons are weaker than hand grenades.

[NecronLord]

Enterprise Phase Pistols have been shown to be able to use that kind of power, even if just a one off,

Do you even know what one off means? It means it cannot be relied upon happening again. There's no mention of them using this as their standard weapon from that point on is there? You presume they're going to bust it out again if they encounter the cybermen, but they don't do that on any other occasion it'd be logically useful, do they?

[AMT]

Enterprise Phase Pistols have been shown to be able to use that kind of power, even if just a one off,

Do you even know what one off means? It means it cannot be relied upon happening again. There's no mention of them using this as their standard weapon from that point on is there? You presume they're going to bust it out again if they encounter the cybermen, but they don't do that on any other occasion it'd be logically useful, do they?

When else would it have been useful in the series?

[NecronLord]

I never denied that Mondas Cybermen would likely win. I just had an issue with you saying Trek weapons are weaker than hand grenades.

Which they are. You cited a one-shot forgotten weapon. That's like me citing the 50s nuclear artillery round and using it to prove that all US army howitzers fire shells that explode with a kiloton of energy.

[NecronLord]

When else would it have been useful in the series?

Do they?

The onus is on you to prove that this became standard practice. Is there an episode where they do the same modification to the guns? Is there a line that mentions them keeping the guns that way?

I rather doubt it. I am willing to be proven wrong.

You are asserting that this may be used as an example of their standard performance. You must now supply evidence to back it up.

[Serafina]

When else would it have been useful in the series?

How is a weapon that can project the explosive force of a hand grenade NOT useful when everything else you have is more or less equivalent to bolt-action rifles in function?

Why did no one try to use them against the Borg?
Why did no one carry them as a backup-weapon to blast trough enemy bulkheads?
Why is no one using them to destroy an enemies cover?
Why do we never see them against Jem'Hadar assaults during the Dominion War?

The most likely answer is that this was a modification not suitable for further deployment. Perhaps it worked on a quirk in that type of phase weapon that allowed it to release all it's stored energy at once (and you generally do not want to carry around unstable batteries). Perhaps the modification is just too unstable and they were just lucky that it did not explode in their faces.

Either way, you can not just assume that a useful piece of technology that is far better than contemporary technology and gets never used again will see widespread deployment.

[AMT]

I never denied that Mondas Cybermen would likely win. I just had an issue with you saying Trek weapons are weaker than hand grenades.

Which they are. You cited a one-shot forgotten weapon. That's like me citing the 50s nuclear artillery round and using it to prove that all US army howitzers fire shells that explode with a kiloton of energy.

Except we don't know the lower limit of the phase pistols, only that they can cut through rock easily. And phase rifles can blow holes through people. All I did was establish the upper limit possible. And as said before, that's a sustained energy, not a one shot explosion.

Sustained energy, even at a slightly lesser amount than a hand grenade, can conceivably drill through the armor like it does other substances.

When else would it have been useful in the series?

Do they?

The onus is on you to prove that this became standard practice. Is there an episode where they do the same modification to the guns? Is there a line that mentions them keeping the guns that way?

I rather doubt it. I am willing to be proven wrong.

You are asserting that this may be used as an example of their standard performance. You must now supply evidence to back it up.

Conceded, though I think it's a borderline strawman. Never claimed they were standard practice. I only said it was possible for it to have that high of an upper limit.

When else would it have been useful in the series?

How is a weapon that can project the explosive force of a hand grenade NOT useful when everything else you have is more or less equivalent to bolt-action rifles in function?

Because it isn't an explosive force, it's a drilling beam? It's not like it's firing out explosive bullets here.

Why did no one try to use them against the Borg?

Because it's an energy weapon and the Borg adapt to those rather easily? Their issue seems to be with physical attacks.

Why did no one carry them as a backup-weapon to blast trough enemy bulkheads?

Because phasers can potentially drill through enemy bulkheads just as easily?

Why is no one using them to destroy an enemies cover?

Because it's a TV show.

Why do we never see them against Jem'Hadar assaults during the Dominion War?

Why would they need them?

[Darth Tedious]

Correct me if I'm wrong- wasn't the 10 megajoule phase pistol burst used against a Borg that had already adapted to it?

And a question: Does anyone know for certain what aspect of a hand grenade explosion kills Cybermen? Is it the heat, concussive force, or a combination? Depending on the nature on their armour (assuming it isn't phaser-resistant for unknown reasons), 1 megajoule's worth of heat as a DET applied to a pencil-thin cross-sectional area should totally be enough to burn through it.
True, a phase rifle only outputs 1/10th as much power as a hand grenade, but it concentrates it into a very small target area. If a grenade explodes 3 feet away from you, you'll receive less than 1/10th of the energy it releases anyway, distributed the whole presenting side of your body.

Note: I don't really think the Cybermen will be defeated either, but this question of whether phasers will work against or not them is piquing my interest.

[Themightytom]

Um the whole CyberKing is a one off. Did we see any other giant Manga robots trolling around Whoverse? The cybermen from the Next Doctor could just be shitty knockoffs made with Victorian era parts, "heavily armored" with steel plate. Did the cybermen even have any memory sticks left? I thought the Doctor weaponized the last of them.

[NecronLord]

By OP fiat the cybermen are able to produce full on post-Revenge Mondas cybermen, with their original programming. They will be able to build proper ships. The cyberking is irrelevant.`

They don't need to be phaser resistant - phasers are unknown technology in this time period. When Phase Pistols miss, they don't vapourise shit (the ability is unknown, see the Mirror Darkly two parter) nor do notable, even bullet-level damage to their environment.

The idea that phase rifle blasts that (on {one?} occasion) go through people is going to stop them is silly. Cybermen are functionally immune to the L1A1 SLR, which fired 7.62 NATO, a round also known to go through people.

No, it's not explained what part of a grenade affects them - most likely the force (because, that's how grenades primarily injure people) of the explosion more than the heat radiated.

[Batman]

Actually the primary mechanism by which grenades injure people are fragments, not concussive force.