Caesar's Legion (FO:NV) vs Caesar's Legion (RL)

[Panzersharkcat]

Some god-like entity decides to be a dick and plucks up several Gallic Wars-era Roman legions under the command of Julius Caesar and plops them into NCR territory and replaces NCR troops entirely. The Romans would have access to whatever the NCR would have, though they might have a hard time figuring out how to use that stuff and keep it maintained. Their objective is to hold Hoover Dam and/or drive Caesar's Legion from the Mojave altogether. If they succeed, they would be allowed to return home to their time period with a shitload of gold (also, have their dead resurrected). If they fail, they get sent back infected with FEV or as feral ghouls. For the Legion, if they fail to take the Dam or try to get buddy-buddy with real Romans, they get turned into feral ghouls or spontaneously explode. Who wins?

(The Courier takes out Mr. House but gets eaten by a pack of deathclaws before s/he can do anything else.)

[Setzer]

One side has guns, the other doesn't. Not exactly an epic clash.

[Panzersharkcat]

Yeah, but most Legionaries (NV) use machetes made from sharpened lawnmower blades or fire axes and wear armor made from old athletic gear. They would be going up against properly armored Roman soldiers with chain mail, shields, and swords. Plus, part of the conditions was that the Romans would have access to whatever the NCR would have. The skills to use them would be a whole other matter, not to mention the problems with obtaining the stuff due to the language barrier.

[streetad]

Caesar's Legion in NV are essentially a federation of various post-apocalyptic tribes that had gone back to using spears, bows etc. Caesar united them in the style of The Man Who Would Be King, taught them how to use guns and modern infantry tactics etc. As a result they are somewhat schizophrenic in their equipment and level of training; they do however have a core of heavily armed, highly skilled infantry with guns, rocket launchers etc. They are also aware of the existence of large quantities of artillery in close proximity to the Dam and are actively attempting to court the Boomers for their support during the events of the game.

It is unlikely that the genuine Romans would even realise the strategic significance of the Hoover Dam beyond its use as a convenient way to cross the Colorado river. With regards to the NCR's assets, there is every chance that the more enterprising legionaries may be able to work out how to load and fire a rifle; maybe even how to maintain it given time. What they don't have is any grasp of how these assets are best used in battle; unless there are enough leftover NCR troops to drill them and teach modern infantry techniques, all that equipment will be next to useless. Given that its pretty explicit that the NCR already has a significant manpower advantage over Caesar's Legion in the game, its difficult to see anything that the Romans could bring to the table that the NCR couldn't.

What may be interesting is how Caesar would react to the possibility of meeting a man who is clearly his idol...

[Stark]

Isn't the NV force maybe 100 guys?

[streetad]

It depends on how much allowance you make for the limitations of the game engine. In-game dialogue and background fluff both suggest the scale of the battles, populations etc should be much larger than they are displayed in-game.

[Panzersharkcat]

Yeah. At the First Battle of Hoover Dam, there were around 107 NCR fatalities, at least according to the number of names on the memorial at Boulder City. It's stated in Fallout Wiki that, as of 2241, the population of the entire NCR is 700,000 people but there's no indication of how much it's grown since then. The wiki also states that there are only a few divisions in the NCR Army. IIRC, Caesar, the NV one, regards the Dam as only a bridge to the west. He absolutely refuses to let his soldiers operate anything more advanced than guns and radios. If you activate Archimedes 1, Helios One is occupied by the Legion but only to spite the NCR.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't know anything about the plot of the game, I'm afraid. However, it seems to me that the initial scenario covers "Gaius Julius wouldn't know why to defend the dam." Of course he knows; if he doesn't do it he'll die horribly. Good enough.

How much contact would Gaius Julius have with other groups in the area? The real Caesar wasn't just a general, he was a politician, and one with a knack for scouting out unfamiliar territory, forming alliances with groups of the locals, and playing locals off against each other with his own troops as a wedge until he had secure control of the area and the remaining locals were at his mercy.

Indeed, that's pretty much the entire story of the Gallic Wars right there.

[Panzersharkcat]

He can contact whoever he wants to, logistics and whatnot permitting. So can the pretend Caesar, but the whole enslaving his enemies, forcibly integrating them into the Legion, and completely erasing their culture bit kind of makes it hard for him to gain the support of any groups who know what he's like. An example would be the Van Graffs, who back stab the Legion in one quest, noting that "Caesar does not have allies, only slaves." Real Caesar would have a huge language barrier, though, if he wants to ally with various factions, especially groups like the highly isolationist Boomers and the Brotherhood of Steel. He may be able to get some people from the Followers of the Apocalypse, like Arcade Gannon, to help him translate, though.

[Simon_Jester]

Real Caesar managed to work with the Gauls well enough- though more of them spoke Latin.

I suspect this will be a critical factor. Caesar (the real one) is going to be a lot better at coalition-building than this other guy. Granted he may be plotting to stab his allies in the back later when he has no further need of them, but for now that may help make up for his weakness in areas like modern weapons.

[Panzersharkcat]

It's not as big a weakness, though, than what would be happening if he was fighting the NCR, who rely almost exclusively on AR-15 type rifles, and are reasonably accurate with them. Most Legionaries are melee troops, even the elite ones who show up at Hoover Dam, and their primary weapons are sharpened lawn mower blades rather than proper swords. Power fists and fire axes show up on occasion, especially among the ones at Hoover Dam.

Come to think of it, real Caesar would be best served by going on the offensive. Legionaries of the fake Caesar are really good rushers but are absolute crap at holding positions. IIRC, one reason the Legion had as much success as they did was because General Oliver was absolutely inept and instead of wearing down the Legion on the offensive, tried to force a huge battle at Hoover Dam, playing into the Legion's specialty of being highly effective rushers. He's even nicknamed General "Wait and See." I believe the real Caesar would be smarter than that.

[Stark]

The game suggests the ratio between 'morons with machetes' and 'guys with actual rayguns' is about 20:1 or 10:1. Since the Romans almost certainly outnumber the NV force, this will limit how useful the rayguns will be.

The very success of NV human wave tactics demonstrates that Fallout-verse infantry weapons do not prevent it, and the Romans are better equipped and trained for this.

[Panzersharkcat]

The Romans would have to handle stuff back in California, too, which would limit the number of soldiers available to them to fend off or attack the Legion. Every single NCR soldier is replaced by a Roman legionary.

If I remember correctly, it's not all human wave tactics. They do talk about moving and attacking in formations. Vulpes Inculta was almost crucified by his centurion for breaking ranks. There's more tactical sophistication going on than is demonstrated by game mechanics.

[Stark]

The idea these guys don't break ranks is fucking absurd. Have you played the game? They just run towards you and try to chop you. They have about the same AI as a radscorpion. Are we using the nonexistent 'Caesar's Legion' where one guy can't just walk in and destroy his entire camp solo?

And frankly 'moving in formation' shouldn't help them against NCR weapons anyway. The fact remains that a bunch of guys 80%+ armed with trolleybars can be a credible threat to the NCR, so the rayguns obviously don't matter that much.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

but you see stark game mechanics are invalid therefore the legion has whatever level of competency is necessary to win

[Panzersharkcat]

It's either that game mechanics prevent them from showing more sophisticated tactics that let them go around the limitations of melee weapons and nearly win against the NCR or that bullets are mysteriously weak in the Fallout universe.