modern armies vs G1 Decepticons

[mr friendly guy]

I always wondered as our technology advances, will villains in shows I watched as a kid still be a threat to us? So how do 1980s Decepticons (Pre transformers the movie) fare against our 21st century weapons?

For the record the Decepticons will include those who are on Earth in the G1 cartoon. That is Megatron, Soundwave, Starscream and the jets, Triple changers - Astrotrain, Blitzwing, also Soundwave and the Cassettes transformers. For the combiners we get the Constructicons, Stunticons and Combaticons. Also included are the Insecticons.

Decepticons which don't appear include Trypticon, Predacons, Terracons as they appeared after the movie.

For this scenario assume no Autobot involvement and that Cybertron belongs to the Autobots so the Decepticons can't use the wank tractor beam and send Earth into the sun. The Decepticons want to conquer Earth to use its resources to invade Cybertron.

Decepticons showing their ability to destroy sky scrappers

Seven decepticon jets easily destroy that number of human jets and force at least 9 jets to retreat, with no loss to the Decepticons

Also assume the Decepticons are fully powered and their base of operation is a seabase off the waters of the USA, which due to an act of plot was constructed undetected.

So do we need the Autobots to save us, or will we swamped them with sheer number of jets and tanks and then proceed to study their technology? And if we do defeat them, which weapons do we utilise and how much damage would they do before being defeated.

[Norade]

That sea base will be gone the second the magic cloak that allowed them to build goes away and it's discovered to be the base of the threat.

Things that were new in the 1980's are old hat now. The F/A-18 isn't just seeing it's first active combat. The F-22 raptor is now king of the skies. The Abrams now has modern information sharing technology and the 120mm cannon. Precision weapons are now cheaper and more common in all services. The fact that they can't be covered up as a threat due to cellphone cameras and the like is new.

In general they are less of a threat than they were. They're still going to be tough, but they won't have the upper hand in many ways that they may have in the cartoon.

[Sarevok]

Militarily the main difference is that guided weapons got smaller and there are lot more of them.

But our weapons don't do any more damage than before. And we have fewer aircraft and tanks these days. Whereas in 80s the Decepticons would face the combined mights of USSR and USA. We also have fewer nukes, which are probably the only weapon that can reliably take down the Decepticons with one hit kills.

In short we may actually be worse off vs a Decepticon attack today than the 80s.

[Norade]

They at most faced 20 jets at a time in the cartoon, and they wiped 9 and drove of the other 11. Given how much better BVR combat systems the raptor would so the same to 20 jets approaching from range. Numbers aren't that important when the Decepticons never get to fire a shot.

[mr friendly guy]

The Decepticons most likely can however survive more than one shot, given that their weapons are one shot kills against human jets, but they get hit with autobot weapons and have to retreat but are still "alive".

[inviz345]

Decepticons can shoot and fly outside earth orbit as the built a moon base.
Decepticons got a satellite that can melt the rocky mountains. Decepticons created exposivle that turned coal into diamonds. Turbine mole machine that digs under the ground below oil wells.

Using the Crusher Megatron sliced icebergs off the Antarctic
the Crusher is a tank-like vehicle that is suitable for any type of terrain. On top of that, it is equipped with engines that allow it to fly. Its defining feature is two rows of large teeth made from tetrinite that are capable of chewing a path through any given matter.

i go for the Deceptions they is no way modern earth can hit them.

[Sarevok]

They at most faced 20 jets at a time in the cartoon, and they wiped 9 and drove of the other 11. Given how much better BVR combat systems the raptor would so the same to 20 jets approaching from range. Numbers aren't that important when the Decepticons never get to fire a shot.

Umm Decepticon missiles even in the video pull off some insane maneuvers. We are getting wiped out in a long range missile exchange. As for BVR combat some of the Decepticons can reach orbit under their own power. Good luck trying to hit something moving that fast.

Infact modern missiles may be inferior against what amounts to insanely fast flying tank like targets. Older missiles sometimes had faster speed and greater range - like the AIM-54 for example. Back in the missiles also packed much more powerful warheads.Modern missiles have superior guidence. But not the raw kinematic performence to hit a Decepticon in the air. The wide area effect warheads on modern missiles will also do very little damage to a Decepticon is built to take their own explosive and direct energy weapon hits.

If I were a fighter pilot I would pick no less than a mach 3 interceptor carrying nuclear tipped air to air missiles when facing Starscream and his kind. What Starscream did to those F-22s in the live action movie is actually quite representative how just how powerful Decepticons are.

[lance]

How does starscreams ability to go through what looks like 2 meters of concrete like its nothing compare to a fighters durability?

[Whiskey144]

While I have nothing to really contribute to the actual debate/question, just thought I'd pop in and address this:

If I were a fighter pilot I would pick no less than a mach 3 interceptor carrying nuclear tipped air to air missiles when facing Starscream and his kind. What Starscream did to those F-22s in the live action movie is actually quite representative how just how powerful Decepticons are.

Despite the fact that that's an extremely potent showing of Decepticon power........it's also useless for this particular debate. What Starscream did to the F22s in the live action Michael Bay film (which I loved, BTW.....giant transforming robots blowing each other up? YES PLEASE!) has no relevance when the OP and the thread title specifically mentions that this is the G1 Decepticons, not the new movie versions.

[Imperial Overlord]

What's being accepted as canon? Just the shows or are other sources in? In one of the early comics Megatron lets the US Army hit him with everything short of nukes for fifteen minutes, smirks, and goes back inside the Decepticon base without firing a shot.

[Simon_Jester]

While I have nothing to really contribute to the actual debate/question, just thought I'd pop in and address this:

If I were a fighter pilot I would pick no less than a mach 3 interceptor carrying nuclear tipped air to air missiles when facing Starscream and his kind. What Starscream did to those F-22s in the live action movie is actually quite representative how just how powerful Decepticons are.

Despite the fact that that's an extremely potent showing of Decepticon power........it's also useless for this particular debate. What Starscream did to the F22s in the live action Michael Bay film (which I loved, BTW.....giant transforming robots blowing each other up? YES PLEASE!) has no relevance when the OP and the thread title specifically mentions that this is the G1 Decepticons, not the new movie versions.

I think he means it's a good illustration that we'll all be familiar with, not that it's evidence- other evidence would come from elsewhere.

[Whiskey144]

I think he means it's a good illustration that we'll all be familiar with, not that it's evidence- other evidence would come from elsewhere.

If that's the case, then I do apologize for my rather caustic tone......it's just that, at least to me, it appeared he was presenting it as evidence of Decepticon superiority, in the face of the rather specific note that this is for G1 Decepticons, not Michael-Bay-movie Decepticons.

[mr friendly guy]

I was using G1 decepticons since Michael Bay transformers is clearly in a different continuity. I am going to assume the comics are also in a different continuity compared to the cartoons.

[Swindle1984]

I was using G1 decepticons since Michael Bay transformers is clearly in a different continuity. I am going to assume the comics are also in a different continuity compared to the cartoons.

They are. In fact, sticking strictly to G1 comics that existed in the 80's, the US and UK comics are (mostly) separate continuities. The G.I. Joe/Transformers crossover and Spiderman/Transformers crossover are also their own, separate continuities as well.

[Bedlam]

I think I remember something from the very early G1 comics when the decepticons had just kidnaped Sparkplug and got him to provide them with fuel. The decepticons base was surounded by the American army and Megatron after getting fully fuelled stepped out and the military threw everything they had at him short of nukes for 15 minutes, when the smoke cleared he walked off without a scratch.

This would suggest that Megatron is immune to all conventional earth weapons (something which is contrtadicted later in the series), it also suggests to me that transformers may have some sort of force field increasing their toughness as Megatron waited to get fuelled before the show down without fighting back, which suggests he might not have survived if he was low on power. This is sort of backed up later when I remember low powered autobots falling appart by themselves suggesting the same field might be used to hold them together (makes transformation possible?), never really mentioned anywhere though.

[LadyTevar]

Let's look at Modern tank shells and what they can do:

HE shells -- made to blow violently and send shrapnel everywhere. Very good against 'soft targets'. Against G1 'Cons? it's a patter of raindrops.

HEAT -- The wiki entry says it all: They are extremely efficient at defeating plain steel armour but less so against later composite and reactive armour.
Somehow I doubt G1 'Cons have "plain steel armour"

KE weapons (including DU): High speed and a small impact site to increase penetration. It would come down to tensile strength of Cybertronium vs DU, imho. I think DU may leave a dent on chestplates and other heavily armoured sections. It might blow through joints, however.

(whatever they call the penetration/molten metal injection)
This works well against modern tanks with composite ablation armour. From what I understand, it's a KE weapon base to penetrate, then the molten copper/metal injects past the armor to splatter the tank's interior and crew.
This might be the best attempt against a G1 'Con. Again, it will depend on where it hits and if KE can penetrate Cybertronium. If it does penetrate, the molten metal could do some serious damage to internal systems.

[SirNitram]

Consider some of these things.

Decepticon jets of all kinds go to orbit easily. This requires enough acceleration to get them up to 11.2km/s in a fairly short period of time. To say nothing of their visit to Titan, Saturn's Moon(Which was inexplicably populated by pink-skinned humans.).

Shockwave, beyond mere firepower that's ridiculous, also created a Space Bridge capable of transporting Cybertron(No, I have no clue the energy capacity that implies!), and travelling through time. I'm not kidding. G1 Ep War Dawn. Range back in time to before the Great War, which is in excess of 4 million years.

Triple Takeover had one of the less-brilliant ones rewire trains into troopers. They were useless(Idiots, unarmoured, unarmed, stuck on train tracks), but that technology is kinda spooky.

Edited out Trypticon Entry.

Here's some very rough calculations as well, from the episode Thief In The Night. An oil-funded ruler comments that 'A thousand barrels of crude oil to make one [energon] cube.' We can assume this is not accurate, but close enough to be usable. A quick browsing of academic material shows a barrel of crude has 6.1x10^9 Joules of potential energy. One cube thus has, if I'm doing my math right, 6.1 Terajoules of energy in it. It should be noted, a collection of energon cubes, when cooked off by weapons fire, tossed Cybertron not only out of orbit, but out of solar system. Cybertron's size ranges from 6,300km in diameter, to roughly Saturn's size. More insane than this, is that Megatron survived this explosion.

[Solauren]

The 1980's Decepticons would ass-rape our world.

Thundercracker can hit supersonic speeds casually
Skywarp can Teleport
Rumble can 'pile drive' the the ground hard enough to knock over skyscrapers and simulate Earthquakes.
Astrotrain is capable of interstellar flight.
All the Decepticons can fly, and reach orbit.
We've seen Devastator tunnel down to the core of the planet.
They have shield technology
We've seen them take over other machines via remote. (Soundwave)

Sorry, unless we get the drop on them an hit them with just about every piece of military hardware on the planet, we're toast.

[mr friendly guy]

Well given that Galvatron killed Starscream with what looks easily less than subnuclear explosion (I am assuming Cybertron has an atmosphere somehow since humans can survive there without suits), I think we might be able to win if we use "John Sheriden" tactics of luring them into a city and detonating a nuke or several nukes by remote control.

[MrDakka]

What do you guys think about 'Cons standing up to EMP's?

[Solauren]

What do you guys think about 'Cons standing up to EMP's?

Given some of the shit they pull....

I'd say pretty damn well. Quite frankly, a race of sentient 'bots not being immune to EMP is beyond stupid.

[MrDakka]

Figured as much; so short of arming every soldier with a Davy Crockett launchers, humanity's screwed

[Solauren]

Figured as much; so short of arming every soldier with a Davy Crockett launchers, humanity's screwed

Hell, even that might not be enough.

[RecklessPrudence]

Although... they're not nearly as tough when they're low on energon, and it seems to take some time and resources to convert Earth resources to Energon in the first place... is there any way we could delay and deny them that time? Then we might have a shot. Not much of one, but a shot. And Megatron seems to like sending just a few Decepticons out on their own for missions - and if we take out even a few, there's always internal dissent (or, 'The Starscream Factor') to consider...

We're still screwed, but we might be able to make nuisances of ourselves. Although in the IDW comics based on G1 (good reads!), Soundwave can screw with missile's guidance and fighter jet's telemetry, Frenzy can induce panic or rage in the squishies opposing them, be they infantry or in a tank, and that's just off the top of my head. The fact that they can blow through our electronic security like it's not even there may also be crucial - in fact, G1 Decepticons had enough abilities not directly related to taking and giving out punishment that we might lose just based on them - but again, they need Energon to pull off any of the big tricks.

[Darth Fanboy]

The world is big enough and the Decepticons stealthy enough that they could covertly produce enough energon to sustain a war effort as evidenced by the number of times Autobot intervention was the only outside force acting upon them.

I'd also imagine that, if desired, the volatility of energon would prove quite important. I would not put it past Megatron to stockpile an assload of Energon and threaten to use it to destroy the planet itself if humanity did not comply. A demonstration on a particularly powerful nation would suffice with a smaller amount i'd imagine.