Star Wars vs Mass Effect ground combat

[Luke Skywalker]

It is well established that even low end Star Wars calculations project them as far above Mass Effect in terms of space conflict, industrial capabilities and non relay FTL speeds.

This thread is about the comparison of ground combat tactics, technology and weapons of Mass Effect and Star Wars.

If an equivalent number of troops from both sides with respective combined arms forces were engaged in a large, theater scale conflict, which side would likely win?

If an equivalent number of small scale forces were involved in a skirmish, which side would likely win?

[Purple]

I am not a great ME fan so pause while I ask a few basic questions.
Do ME forces deploy mortars, grenade launchers, tanks, hovertanks that can go 300km/h, air support compatible to Star Wars fighter craft, support weapons (like the E-Web from SW), chemical weapons and protection against them and stuff like that?

[Norade]

You missed speeders capable of 300+km/h, war droids, and orbital support that makes ME guns look like spitwads.

[ChosenOne54]

Yeah, uh, Star Wars stomps.

I mean, I guess biotics may come in handy, but Mass Effect simply does not have the firepower or technology to compare.

The thought of a geth armature facing of against an AT-ST is just epic though.

[Luke Skywalker]

Well, the ground battles in ME are small skirmishes rather than full scale battles, so you do not see tanks or heavy weapons. There are some varying ME small arms calcs on spacebattles, but none approach displayed SW firearms. However, ME small arms have a higher RoF, they have widespread and arguably more advanced suits, VI/AI systems, tech gadgets, on the fly medi gel, biotics and arguably better military tactics.

[Connor MacLeod]

We don't have enough hard, numerical data on the ground combat capabilities to make definite ground combat comparisons. If Shepard is any indicator your average ME soldier is better equipped than your average Imperial army trooper (or in 40k terms imperial guardsmen) as far as gear goes. Storm troopers (either SW or 40K) are entirely debatable.

We don't really know enough about the guns either. Supposedly they fire sand grain sized pellets (carrying thousands of rounds per ammo block) at hypervelocities, but that has some problems all its own nevermidn that some of the data suggests they fire much bigger rounds (which alters the mass/velocity dynamic quite a bit.) Nevermind them still using shotguns. Even then we dont know much about rate of fire, ranges, etc.

They have some interesting trick weaponry as well, but that's about it.

i don't think we've seen much mor than glimpses of their ground combat vehicles either and even then we don't have much hard data on them (other than they have funky mass lightening crap too.)

[Omeganian]

I am not a great ME fan so pause while I ask a few basic questions.
Do ME forces deploy mortars, grenade launchers, tanks, hovertanks that can go 300km/h, air support compatible to Star Wars fighter craft, support weapons (like the E-Web from SW), chemical weapons and protection against them and stuff like that?

They employ tanks and hovertanks (the latter can make 120 kph), we saw a small base (a few soldiers,a couple RDS, a power generator) use stationary rocket launcher turrets, a Soldier character can use a light machine gun as an assault rifle, so presumably they have regular ones, and the infantrymen normally wear sealed armor. Artillery is mentioned. Gunships are encountered.

[Lord of the Abyss]

There's also the question of whether or not Mass Effect shields will stop whatever-it-is that blaster bolts are.

[Highlord Laan]

There's also the question of whether or not Mass Effect shields will stop whatever-it-is that blaster bolts are.

They will not. It's stated in game that Kinetic Barriers are exactly that, and do nothing to impede directed energy weapons.

[Starglider]

They will not. It's stated in game that Kinetic Barriers are exactly that, and do nothing to impede directed energy weapons.

Mass Effect kinetic barriers are effective against the Collector's particle beam weapons. Which isn't surprising, as particle beams consist of normal matter with mass and momentum, and there is no particular reason why barriers should react differently to the KE in a particle beam versus the KE in a hypervelocity projectile.

They are however completely useless against lasers and other EM weapons. So I suppose the question is whether blaster bolts are made up of massive particles or massless particles, the EU stuff seems to portray them as plasma weapons (based on superheating and accelerating gas), but it's often suggested that there is a laser component as well. The fact that Star Wars itself has both ray and particle shielding, and only the former works against blasters, suggests that the main damage mechanism consists of massless particles and Mass Effect shields are the equivalent of SW particle shields.

[Whiskey144]

Mass Effect kinetic barriers are effective against the Collector's particle beam weapons. Which isn't surprising, as particle beams consist of normal matter with mass and momentum, and there is no particular reason why barriers should react differently to the KE in a particle beam versus the KE in a hypervelocity projectile.

They are?

IIRC, the Codex for Mass Effect states quite clearly that particle beam and laser type weapons pretty much go through a kinetic barrier like said barrier isn't there, and the ME writers have stated that the Codex>cutscenes/gameplay/whatever else.

[Starglider]

IIRC, the Codex for Mass Effect states quite clearly that particle beam and laser type weapons pretty much go through a kinetic barrier like said barrier isn't there, and the ME writers have stated that the Codex>cutscenes/gameplay/whatever else.

Firstly lasers and particle beam are completely different weapons relying on different methods of generation and energy transfer, and your equation of them is nonsensical. No one is disputing that kinetic barriers are useless against lasers.

Secondly if you're going to quote fluff, the codex entry for the particle beam gun is

Precise and lethal, this focused radiation weapon is very effective against shields and barriers but less effective against armor.

'Very effective against' not 'doesn't interact with them at all'.

[Connor MacLeod]

blasters aren't all beam weapons. Some of them are projectile weapons (ref: TESb novelization, the OT where we see some blasters ejecting casings, fire off axis and possibly guided rounds, etc.) Some kinds of blasters will (probably) be affected by kinetic barriers, and others will not be (massless beams). Particle beams, may go one way or another (not al PBW will be the same.

Some are high mass/low velocity, and others are low mass/high velocity. The latter will penetrate better than the former, I suspect. And even then there's no reason to assume that kinetiic barriers are all or nothing anyhow.. it could be that KB can affect PBs, but they are much less effective at stopping them than they are at projecitle weapons.

Also, let's not get all hyper about hovertanks. They exist, but I've never really figured how extensively (the army seems to have a fair number as per the ISB, but they also use AT-AT sand other walkers, possibly moreso given the prequel novels and subsequent revisions) Also, speed wise they can go very fast (Fire Hawke heavy tank, which is an outdated design, is 400 kph, but other kinds, like the Sabre fighter tanks, are much slower typically, with a average speed less than 200 khp and a 320 kph "afterburn" speed.) How that stacks up with ME vehicles i don't know, because I've never seen stats on em.

[BlissAuthority]

Mass Effect kinetic barriers are effective against the Collector's particle beam weapons. Which isn't surprising, as particle beams consist of normal matter with mass and momentum, and there is no particular reason why barriers should react differently to the KE in a particle beam versus the KE in a hypervelocity projectile.

Starglider is correct. Star Wars blasters, even the 'turbolaser' and 'superlaser' weapons, act like charged particle beams in universe; there's no reason that ME Kinetic Barriers wouldn't slow them down, at least.

That said, I don't know what the numbers on what a ship-scale or tank-scale Kinetic Barrier can stop. Without knowing that, I can't tell you how effective they'd be in stopping the megawatt-output blaster cannon of Star Wars.

In terms of tactics, the ME Alliance has a combined arms philosophy, and they have tanks, artillery, even heavy war robots (the Ymir comes to mind). Tactically, they're on par with the Empire. Strategically? I can't tell you without knowing how much damage ME weapons do, and I don't know where to start on the Science for that.

[Whiskey144]

Firstly lasers and particle beam are completely different weapons relying on different methods of generation and energy transfer, and your equation of them is nonsensical. No one is disputing that kinetic barriers are useless against lasers.

Well, I wasn't equating them in any way. I was simply grouping them together as "DEW".

'Very effective against' not 'doesn't interact with them at all'.

Well, this is a tricky bit, IMO. Because this:

A warship's kinetic barriers reduce the damage from solid objects, but can do nothing to block GARDIAN lasers, particle beams, and other forms of Directed Energy Weapon (DEW).

says differently. Given that the Collector Particle Beam personal weapon's in-game description says that, I'm going to say that that particular part of the description is referring to in-game operation.

[BlissAuthority]

A warship's kinetic barriers reduce the damage from solid objects, but can do nothing to block GARDIAN lasers, particle beams, and other forms of Directed Energy Weapon (DEW).

says differently. Given that the Collector Particle Beam personal weapon's in-game description says that, I'm going to say that that particular part of the description is referring to in-game operation.

In game, particle weapons, including the Collector Particle Beam, doesn't ignore shields. Shields aren't much of an impediment, granted; it takes about a half second to down a powerful barrier with the CPB. But kinetic shields don't ignore them.

I suspect that at this point I'm just splitting hairs, though.

[Whiskey144]

In game, particle weapons, including the Collector Particle Beam, doesn't ignore shields. Shields aren't much of an impediment, granted; it takes about a half second to down a powerful barrier with the CPB. But kinetic shields don't ignore them.

The issue I take with this, however, is that, as I mentioned above, the developers of Mass Effect have stated quite clearly that the Codex supersedes cutscenes and gameplay.

OTOH, the bit in the 'dex about the CPB being effective against shields&barriers is......iffy, to say the least. My take is that that particular part of the entry refers to the gameplay, but not the actual "universe" of ME.

I suspect that at this point I'm just splitting hairs, though.

Probably............TBH, probably everyone in this thread is doing so, as in the case of ME we simply lack sufficient information to make a clear-cut call.

[Ritterin Sophia]

a Soldier character can use a light machine gun as an assault rifle

Sheppard can do that. There are people in real-life (normally SF or ex-SF PMCs) who can do the same. But all we can take from that is that Sheppard has enough upper body strength and stamina to do so, we don't know about every other Turian Soldier or Alliance Marine.

Sabre fighter tanks, are much slower typically, with a average speed less than 200 khp and a 320 kph "afterburn" speed.) How that stacks up with ME vehicles i don't know, because I've never seen stats on em.

The closest we've really seen to a tank is the M-44 Hammerhead with a max speed of 120km/h, the biggest weapon on it is a GLM. As for the Sabres, let's not forget that they come equipped with fighter-grade deflector shields.

[Jordie]

a Soldier character can use a light machine gun as an assault rifle

Sheppard can do that. There are people in real-life (normally SF or ex-SF PMCs) who can do the same. But all we can take from that is that Sheppard has enough upper body strength and stamina to do so, we don't know about every other Turian Soldier or Alliance Marine.

Warden Kuril on Purgatory one-hands the Revenant and several generic Blue Suns commanders in the N7 missions carry it. Unlike the Claymore and Widow the Revenent doesn't generate enough recoil to break bones.

[Omeganian]

In game, particle weapons, including the Collector Particle Beam, doesn't ignore shields. Shields aren't much of an impediment, granted; it takes about a half second to down a powerful barrier with the CPB. But kinetic shields don't ignore them.

The issue I take with this, however, is that, as I mentioned above, the developers of Mass Effect have stated quite clearly that the Codex supersedes cutscenes and gameplay.

OTOH, the bit in the 'dex about the CPB being effective against shields&barriers is......iffy, to say the least. My take is that that particular part of the entry refers to the gameplay, but not the actual "universe" of ME.

There is a remote possibility that the Citadel races had little experience with particle beams before the CPB, and therefore had little estimate of their efficiency.

Also, the kinetic barriers are not the only type of shields they have. At least one research station has a "magnetic shield" protecting against solar radiation. It is quite logical for the gameplay not to implement the overly complex system of multiple shield types, but it doesn't mean some version isn't present in combat armor.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Warden Kuril on Purgatory one-hands the Revenant and several generic Blue Suns commanders in the N7 missions carry it. Unlike the Claymore and Widow the Revenent doesn't generate enough recoil to break bones.

That actually doesn't cover my objection to using that as a bench mark to say that they can accurately wield LMGs as ARs. That's not enough of a sample size to say how ubiquitous it is, since all we have is the most badass Alliance Marine ever, a Warden who by all definitions also isn't average, and a bunch of highly experienced PMC commanders.

[Connor MacLeod]

if they have firepower, ROF, and other characteristics roughly parallel to modern firearms, they may very well be more controllable simply because they don't use propellant to fire.

Of course it also depends on how the ME guns work as far as damage mechanisms go. Sometimes they seem to be "tiny slugs accelerated to huge speeds" where the damage mechanism is a hypervelocity impact (basically an explosion) whilst in other cases it seems to be more like a somewhat higher-velocity RL gun (say like the hypothetical flechette rifles like Steyr made.)

[Stargazer]

Cerberus Daily News updates about the corporate war on Garvug and the rebellion on the turian colony Taetrus do mention long-range bombardment by ground weapons, even involving "singularity projectors" (presumably similar to the Blackstorm Singularity Projector but on a larger scale.) But we really don't know as much about Mass Effect ground weapons as we do Star Wars so it's hard to compare. Laser weapons are obviously going to be a problem for Mass Effect though.

[KlavoHunter]

Stop and talk with Kal'Reeger aboard the Quarian Fleet, (You DID save him, right? Right???) and he will talk with Tali about the difference between their small-scale, hard-and-fast commando-style operations like we see in the games, and what a REAL ground war would be like - disrupted logistics, lots of dead Quarians from said disrupted logistics...

[NeoGoomba]

All I can remember off-hand from the Codex is that all Alliance soldiers receive gene therapy and advanced weapons training. But I don't think it goes into detail about what the gene therapy entails. And it's rather moot in this case if the weaponry is ineffective/inferior.

Combined arms also seems commonplace in major engagements. In the Vermire mission, while Shepard's team infiltrates Saren's base the STG unit comes under fire from orbital strikes, aircraft (flying drones), artillery strikes, and ECM in addition to the combined Krogan/Geth infantry, and the STG commander seemed unsurprised about this, as if it were rather common. So at least Mass Effect ground forces have more dimensions going for it than Star Trek.