Daleks vs. Culture

[ChosenOne54]

So the Dalek empire at it's peak (10 million ships) goes against the Culture, at the height of it's power. The Daleks are not allowed to use time travel, or simply time lock/time loop the Culture, and they do not get the reality bomb. They are allowed temporal weaponry though, such as time destructors and temporal disruptors etc.

Which side would win?

[HMS Sophia]

Wait, the dalek ships use missiles and such as ship-to-ship weapons right? If they do then they lose. Hyperspace weaponry would most likely rip their fleet apart. GSV's are not fun to mess with

I don't doubt they could do some serious damage. But I don't think they could win against the culture.

[Serafina]

So we take away all their nifty toys that removes the need for brute-force weaponry, and put them up against an enemy with enormous brute-force weaponry. Gee, they loose, what a surprise!

[ChosenOne54]

I didn't strip them down completely. They are allowed temporal weaponry, superweapons like the apocalypse element, and all their other crazy Novel weapons. They just can't use Time Travel offensively to retcon the Culture out of existance, because that would be just unfair, and including the reality bomb would just be idiotic.

[mr friendly guy]

So they fire their apocalypse element and then escape into another universe. I suppose the Culture could escape into hyperspace and it ends in a draw.

[ChosenOne54]

Daleks at the height of their power had intergalactic FTL didn't they? I mean, almost as fast as a TARDIS? If so, that is a pretty huge advantage.

In 'Stolen Earth,' they managed to teleport 27 planets from all across space and time to the Medusa Cascade, which is a rift in time and space out of synchronization with the rest of the universe by a second (or something).

And has the Culture ever contemplated destroying a galaxy before?

[Eleas]

Daleks at the height of their power had intergalactic FTL didn't they? I mean, almost as fast as a TARDIS? If so, that is a pretty huge advantage.

In 'Stolen Earth,' they managed to teleport 27 planets from all across space and time to the Medusa Cascade, which is a rift in time and space out of synchronization with the rest of the universe by a second (or something).

Intergalactic FTL is within the ability of Culture vessels as well, depending on your definitions. In Excession, one vessel reconfigured itself to reach a speed of 233,000 c (capable of crossing the Milky Way in 190 days, in other words).

And has the Culture ever contemplated destroying a galaxy before?

They may have done so as a simple problem of applied physics, but anything beyond that is unlikely, for the following reasons:

• It would be massively boring. Pointlessly reducing the complexity of the universe is something the Minds vehemently oppose.
• They would not be allowed the attempt. The Culture is the galactic top dog only in a limited sense, in that they're a vital and active participant in galactic affairs, with a currently dominant hedgemony going. That, however, does not grant them immunity from other civilizations, particularly some Sublimed which may very well be capable of effortlessly bitchslapping any number of Culture GSVs.

[mr friendly guy]

I thought the Homanda were technologically superior to the Culture? Although I don't think they can match the Culture's industrial capacity. I must admit, I was unaware that the Culture were top dog, rather I thought they were one of the more powerful civilisations of many equals.

[Eleas]

I thought the Homanda were technologically superior to the Culture? Although I don't think they can match the Culture's industrial capacity. I must admit, I was unaware that the Culture were top dog, rather I thought they were one of the more powerful civilisations of many equals.

They were, at least during the Idiran war (the Idirians, IIC, leased ships from the Homomda at very favorable prices since the Homomda felt it prudent to constrain Culture expansion). It's unclear whether that technological gap still remains, but I got the sense that a typical Homomda vessel outclassed a Culture one by something like 5:1 -- certainly quite significant, but not impossible odds to beat.

That was 900 years ago from the perspective of the Culture as seen in the bulk of the novels.

I might have been unclear in using the expression 'top dog'. What I meant by this is that the Culture seems the current cultural (hah) trend-setter. It seems to have its fingers in every pie.

[ChosenOne54]

Intergalactic FTL is within the ability of Culture vessels as well, depending on your definitions. In Excession, one vessel reconfigured itself to reach a speed of 233,000 c (capable of crossing the Milky Way in 190 days, in other words).

Pretty sure Time War era Daleks used the Time Vortex to travel FTL, which makes their speed almost instant, like a TARDIS. The Daleks moved 27 planets selected from all over the universe and into the Medusa Cascade in a matter of seconds. I've heard speeds like billions or trillions of c thrown around in some other discussions.

[Eleas]

If so, that's a pretty significant advantage.

[ChosenOne54]

Heh, they've also got cool german accents!

[ThePerson5]

Two Dalek trans-solar discs detonated in close proximity to a planet can burn away the atmosphere, and incinerate the surface.

They regularly throw around handheld bombs that can mass-scatter planets. Pre Time-War era ships could destroy planets with ease. The Daleks also possessed starkillers, which can destroy stars, and deathsmith of goth weapons which can drive planets into insanity.

They can destroy entire galaxies by detonating a single particle of Apocalypse Element, and their insane FTL speeds mean that they can pretty much bust a galaxy while watching from the edges. IIRC, it took a single Dalek to sacrifice itself to detonate the Apocalypse element.

Furthermore, the Culture has no form of time technology, which means right off the bat they would be very vulnerable to Dalek temporal tech such as time destructors and temporal disruptors.

Anything I've missed?

[NecronLord]

I thought the Homanda were technologically superior to the Culture? Although I don't think they can match the Culture's industrial capacity. I must admit, I was unaware that the Culture were top dog, rather I thought they were one of the more powerful civilisations of many equals.

The gap between Homomda and the Culture has narrowed, but yes, they still seem superior in the modern era.

The Morthenveld Confederacy (a more desirable society to live in, to my mind, beyond being composed largely of sea-anemones) is most likely the most powerful 'Involved' civilization we've yet seen; their ships have parity with the others, and their capital nest-world has a higher population than the entire Culture, which would imply that they have the resources (manufactories, great-ships, their warships) to support and protect their population at the same lifestyle.

[NecronLord]

Two Dalek trans-solar discs detonated in close proximity to a planet can burn away the atmosphere, and incinerate the surface.

And a Culture ship can destroy a planet by slamming the brakes on. How does this help them?

They regularly throw around handheld bombs that can mass-scatter planets.

What? They had multi-kiloton hand-held bombs in the show. I don't recall this though.

Pre Time-War era ships could destroy planets with ease. The Daleks also possessed starkillers, which can destroy stars, and deathsmith of goth weapons which can drive planets into insanity.

One weapon. The Deathsmiths only ever made one, and it destroyed them. Being armed with 'the full might of the Deathsmiths of Goth' means they have... the one of those.

Given that it can be trapped on a planet, and takes its sweet time doing anything, I suspect it will soon find itself on an empty Culture-whatever it's put on, with nothing to do again, and maybe a CGU on station in hyperspace to stop anyone disturbing it.

They can destroy entire galaxies by detonating a single particle of Apocalypse Element, and their insane FTL speeds mean that they can pretty much bust a galaxy while watching from the edges. IIRC, it took a single Dalek to sacrifice itself to detonate the Apocalypse element.

They can do none of these things. The Daleks needed the Time Lords to stop the Apocalypse Element, and would have never used it if they hadn't been able to use Time Lord technology to limit its effects.

To make it, they needed to harvest materials from the oldest planetoid in the universe, which was lost to them.

They also used their only refined sample, and no longer have the captured geniuses they needed to synthesize it, including Lady President Romanadvoratrelundar of Gallifrey (who escaped, with one of the others).

So there's no reason to assume they'd ever be able to make more.

Furthermore, the Culture has no form of time technology, which means right off the bat they would be very vulnerable to Dalek temporal tech such as time destructors and temporal disruptors.

We don't know what temporal disruptors do, except that they're functionally a raygun, and time destructors are basically just a bomb.

[ChosenOne54]

IIRC, temporal disruptors are weapons the Daleks used to destroy TARDISes.

As for the handheld planet-busting bomb, didn't you provide the example yourself? Bracewell was expected to shatter the planet.

[NecronLord]

IIRC, temporal disruptors are weapons the Daleks used to destroy TARDISes.

They plug away the Doctor's Type 40 unsuccessfully for about five minutes. I'd say they had a go, they never actually seem to have destroyed one using such.

And for all you know, they don't even harm conventional matter.

As for the handheld planet-busting bomb, didn't you provide the example yourself? Bracewell was expected to shatter the planet.

You call that handheld? What the fuck?

For all you know it filled his entire chest.

[ChosenOne54]

Well, not exactly handheld, but small enough to fit in the chest of a human, which is pretty small considering their power.

And just a question, but did Daleks have transduction barriers of any kind? They were fighting the Time Lords after all, and they had to have some protection against the TLs simply winking them out of existence.

[NecronLord]

Well, not exactly handheld, but small enough to fit in the chest of a human, which is pretty small considering their power.

And just a question, but did Daleks have transduction barriers of any kind?

None observed in any media I've seen.

They were fighting the Time Lords after all, and they had to have some protection against the TLs simply winking them out of existence.

Russel T Davies' writeup of the Time War suggests that the Daleks launched a preemptive strike by taking their entire fleet into the vortex. It's quite likely that this served to protect them from simply being time looped, etc.

[ChosenOne54]

If they happened to send their fleet into the vortex, would they essentially be out of reach of the Culture, and free to do whatever the hell they want, similar to the Culture hiding in hyperspace?

[NecronLord]

If they happened to send their fleet into the vortex, would they essentially be out of reach of the Culture, and free to do whatever the hell they want, similar to the Culture hiding in hyperspace?

Except they would mostly have to come out of their hidey hole to do anything. The Culture don't need to.

[ChosenOne54]

If they happened to send their fleet into the vortex, would they essentially be out of reach of the Culture, and free to do whatever the hell they want, similar to the Culture hiding in hyperspace?

Except they would mostly have to come out of their hidey hole to do anything. The Culture don't need to.

I've seen discussions where Daleks are said to be able to attack while inside of the Time Vortex. Can they do this?

[Parallax]

There is no solid confirmation (it's been explicitly seen or described) that:
a) The Daleks are able to destroy a TARDIS using conventional weaponry. While they did almost destroy the Doctor's TARDIS in one episode, via wankery and making the exterior shell normal wood, this is not open warfare technology as such (dear god, I'm still amazed at how fucking awful RTDs writing was - that whole thing made absolutely zero fucking sense.).

2) The Daleks are able to attack from the Time Vortex into the 'real' universe. We've never seen any force do this that I can recall. Even powers such as the White and Black Guardians seem to be unable to do this, otherwise the Black Guardian would have been able to pluck the Doctor's TARDIS to his own domain and kill the Doctor.

The Transduction Barrier that existed around Gallifrey, by all accounts, is useful against temporal attacks and stops things going back in time to retroactively affect Gallifrey and the Time Lords. They had other defences in place for more conventional attacks, which included planetary forcefields. This has changed, depending on the source, it should be noted. 'The Invasion of Time' made it seem as if the Transduction Barrier was the ONLY defence Gallifrey had but other sources had the planetary shields, etc.

[inviz345]

Why don't the Dalek use the Apocalypse element blow up the galaxy if not they could send they ships to hunt and destroy Culture ships. DW as hyperspace The ships would disappear from normal space, enter hyperspace and return. By the 25th century, humans had the ability to travel in hyperspace and such journeys had become commonplace and commercial.

[ChosenOne54]

These are the Daleks at the height of their power though. They can move entire planets across the universe in seconds, they can launch entire fleets into the Time Vortex (though offensive Time Travel isn't allowed in this thread, they can still use it for travel). The Daleks have a ridiculous edge over the Culture in speed, meaning they will never engage in any battles they don't want to. Destroying planets is also trivial for them, as is blowing up suns.

Hyperspace exists in the Whoniverse also, and is mostly used by lower species' while more advanced ones use the TIme Vortex itself, so it may not actually be safe from Dalek incursion.

Just throwing in my two cents.