UFP vs. The Dominion (Starcraft)

[the atom]

Arcturus Mengsk has declared open war on the TNG era Federation. Assume both factions to be in the same galaxy, with both sectors to be in contact with each other. No other factions will be interfering.

[Srelex]

The Dominion has what, a dozen systems? A fleet that's maybe in the hundreds?

The Federation, outnumbering it to such an extent, should be able to take this if victory is defined as forcing a surrender. If they're to occupy, that might be a different matter.

[Imperial528]

The Dominion gets raped, plain and simple. It's already politically unstable, and it's likely that many worlds, especially fringe worlds, will simply break off from the Dominion and request Federation membership.

[the atom]

The Dominion has what, a dozen systems? A fleet that's maybe in the hundreds?

The Federation, outnumbering it to such an extent, should be able to take this if victory is defined as forcing a surrender. If they're to occupy, that might be a different matter.

Good point. What if I threw in the UED?

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Aside from the expeditionary fleet, do we really know anything about the UED? And that fleet itself wasn't any more advanced than the Dominion, and didn't seem to be more than a few hundred ships.

[the atom]

I know the UED is supposed to be much larger and much more powerful. As far as I remember the UED actually roflstomped the Zerg as soon as they tried anything. Let's assume for the purpose of the debate that their combined territory holdings and fleet numbers are equal to the Federation.

[Shroom Man 777]

You idiot. That's cause the UED had access to a Zerg-disrupting technobabble weapon. Aside from that, we know jack shit about UED forces, aside from the fact that they had to steal the Dominion's ships to get a decent fleet, even, and make use of Confederate holdout forces.

[the atom]

You idiot. That's cause the UED had access to a Zerg-disrupting technobabble weapon. Aside from that, we know jack shit about UED forces, aside from the fact that they had to steal the Dominion's ships to get a decent fleet, even, and make use of Confederate holdout forces.

Nice try, but actually that was just the expeditionary fleet, which by itself was still strong enough to occupy the Koprulu Sector. That in itself was a small fraction of their total power.

[Omeganian]

The Koprulu sector was colonized by something like 1/1000000th of humanity. For all we know, the UED area (which was implied not to be politically united) might be a power best pitted up against SW.

[Nephtys]

The Koprulu sector was colonized by something like 1/1000000th of humanity. For all we know, the UED area (which was implied not to be politically united) might be a power best pitted up against SW.

This is one thing I never got about Starcraft. If the Protoss are a race that's been spacefaring for tens of millenia, why aren't they a major power anywhere if the mere backwater of the Koprulu sector is a big deal? What's the entire scare with the dark one, when Earthnoids could have ten or a hundred times more military might than anyone else in the sector? And what's the 'in character' rationale for UED having solely the same gear as what was whipped up by the locals?

[Imperial528]

IIRC the UED deliberately sent outdated warships to the sector after surveillance revealed that they didn't need the latest and greatest things to take on the local Terran forces. However, the underestimated the presence of other factions in the sector which ultimately caused their defeat.
Other reasons why they kept the main fleet behind is because the entire campaign was being used as a propaganda move, and the UED government had inflated the Zerg threat by convincing the populace that the Zerg where going to steamroll their way to Sol any day now, which gives them reason to send a large fleet to the Koprulu sector, but it also constricts them on what they can send, since if people see the majority of UED warships leaving UED territory, they'll start to think that the UED is losing and Earth is doomed.

Now as for why the equipment all looks the same, I think that their Marine combat suits actually look different in cinematics, and they may have even copied local equipment so that they could be more easily maintained by local facilities. Additionally, if the battlecruiser hammerhead-style design goes back further then Terran colonization of the Koprulu sector, it would explain the similarities.

Outside of the expeditionary fleet, the only thing we do know about the UED is that they have been watching the sector and are still likely watching it, and that they have much more powerful technology at home then the Terrans.

As for the Protoss, the reason why they're not much of a major galactic power is because they aren't like that. They haven't been at war in centuries, and as a civilization they consider themselves a people of observation and understanding*, not galactic dominance. They only started real military build-up once the Zerg showed up, since the Zerg are practically the exact opposite of of the Protoss' ideology.

And with the Dark One, to the UED that's probably not their concern at the moment, and I don't think that the Protoss, Terrans, or Zerg would even ask for the UED's help, I mean, they already tried to conquer all three of them once, and nearly succeeded.

*The Protoss have even done UFP-style observation of pre-spacefaring races, with cloaked research stations and what not. It back fired once though, and they were a bit heavy handed in trying to solve the problem, which ended in genocide, which caused them to even further shun war.

[Swindle1984]

The UED expedition to Dominion space acquired all of their battlecruisers by hijacking a Dominion fleet. Most of their infantry are Confederate holdouts who signed on with the UED to fight against the Dominion. They also updated all of the Dominion/Confederate equipment (hence, the upgrades available in the expansion pack) and introduced Valkyries. The overwhelming majority of their equipment and a good percentage of their troops were acquired locally, and not UED technology.

Presumably, the in-universe explanation for this is that they wanted to use technology they could support locally, rather than rely on a lengthy supply chain from UED space to keep their more advanced tech functional. Why wait six months for them to ship ammo you can't produce locally, when you can just use the same ammo as the guys you're invading? And they still made improvements to the local technology they acquired.

[Omeganian]

As for the Protoss, the reason why they're not much of a major galactic power is because they aren't like that. They haven't been at war in centuries, and as a civilization they consider themselves a people of observation and understanding*, not galactic dominance. They only started real military build-up once the Zerg showed up, since the Zerg are practically the exact opposite of of the Protoss' ideology.

They also seem to be in some kind of decay since the Dark Templar left.

The UED expedition to Dominion space acquired all of their battlecruisers by hijacking a Dominion fleet.

Not all of them. Certainly not the flagship.

[Simon_Jester]

You idiot. That's cause the UED had access to a Zerg-disrupting technobabble weapon. Aside from that, we know jack shit about UED forces, aside from the fact that they had to steal the Dominion's ships to get a decent fleet, even, and make use of Confederate holdout forces.

Well, they chose to do so, which is not the same thing. If you're invading the Dominion and you find out that the Dominion left a bunch of its battlecruisers parked on the curb with the doors unlocked and the keys in the ignitions, you'd be a fool not to yoink those battlecruisers, even if you had plenty of your own warships.

Likewise, you'd be a fool not to make use of any local forces willing to ally with you- better they get shot full of holes than your own troops, and they have valuable local knowledge that improves your ability to fight the main enemy.

That's just common sense.

One thing we know is that the UED had at least a fairly respectable fleet on Braxis, before yoinking Dominion ships that were left with the engine running- a fleet strong enough to blockade the Protoss forces that had come to the planet and make it difficult and tricky for them to escape the planet.

The UED expedition to Dominion space acquired all of their battlecruisers by hijacking a Dominion fleet. Most of their infantry are Confederate holdouts who signed on with the UED to fight against the Dominion. They also updated all of the Dominion/Confederate equipment (hence, the upgrades available in the expansion pack) and introduced Valkyries. The overwhelming majority of their equipment and a good percentage of their troops were acquired locally, and not UED technology.

Presumably, the in-universe explanation for this is that they wanted to use technology they could support locally, rather than rely on a lengthy supply chain from UED space to keep their more advanced tech functional. Why wait six months for them to ship ammo you can't produce locally, when you can just use the same ammo as the guys you're invading? And they still made improvements to the local technology they acquired.

I suspect that in-game it was a mix of this and parallel evolution. A big soldier in power armor is a big soldier in power armor, whether he's a Confederate Marine or a UED Marine. For gameplay purposes, it's pretty much the same thing either way.

None of this means, of course, that the UED had vastly superior technology to the Koprulu Sector, though it might have more of the technology that it did have. The Earth government that dispatched the Koprulu expedition was pretty dysfunctional; they may not have promoted the rapid spread of science and industry that would put them far ahead of the Koprulu Terrans.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

An explanation was given at Blizzcon 2007 (http://sclegacy.com/feature/22-bc07/288 ... lore-panel)

Q: Why did the UED have the same technology as the banished Terran prisoners?

A: “That’s funny, we were just talking about that the other day, not necessarily because of StarCraft II - well there’s a spoiler for you” Metzen answered that this part of the lore was clumsily handled. The humans on Earth should have had a far more advanced tech tree. The official reason was that the UED stole all this stuff why they got here and left all the “big guns” at home. Now why they did that - Metzen doesn’t know. But Andy and Metzen are going to keep developing and the history of the UED, why it was sent, and why they used local technology instead of the super “uber tachyon lasers” from home.

The supply line explanation makes a lot of sense, though Omeganian is correct in pointing out that the UED force did include at least some battlecruisers. It was also my impression that the Valkyries were a UED creation.

The UED's backstory claims that the UED took over from the United Powers League (though precisely how is not stated) after the existence of extraterrestrial life became incontrovertible, and then took a more proactive policy. This offers a potential explanation for equipment similarities; that a lack of local threats allowed the UPL to get by with equipment little different to what the Koprulu sector Terrans were copying from ATLAS. The UPL followed a policy of 'enlightened socialism' (as they put it), potentially removing the Military-Industrial complex from the equation. The UED would therefore equip the Expeditionary Force with what it had available, while developing new weapons based on its more advanced scientific base (which continued to develop). As a minor point, Confederate and UED Goliaths are noticeably different, with the former having gun arms while the latter had missile pods in place of arms and a gun between the legs.

Regarding FTL, the original supercarriers made the 60,000 light-year journey from Earth to the Koprulu sector in 28 years, meaning they were travelling at approximatly 2000c. The UED force supposedly made the same trip in a matter of months, which could mean anything from 60,000 to 120,000c, taking 1 year and six months as conservative estimates. Memory Alpha puts Warp 9.9 at 21,473c (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor).

[Imperial528]

In order for the plot to make sense the UED has to have much faster FTL than the Terrans, as evidenced by the fact that they were specifically sent to conquer the Dominion and pacify the Zerg, rather than say the Confederacy. Additionally, Admiral DuGalle comments to Vice Admiral Stukov during one of the cinematics that fighting Zerg in the open is not at all similar to watching one get dissected and analyzed on a lab table, which means that they were able to get agents to the sector, pacify Zerg for study, and return them to Sol to prepare for the invasion.

[Guardsman Bass]

So they actually do have superior military tech back at home?

That's interesting. It actually wouldn't have surprised me if the UPL/UED had inferior military technology to the Koprulu Sector Colonies. The original Starcraft back-story from the booklet said that the UPL was a totalitarian state that controlled nearly all of humanity, aside from a handful of rogue areas. In the absence of a serious external or internal military threat, they might have simply let their military capabilities deteriorate over hundreds of years.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

So they actually do have superior military tech back at home?

That's interesting. It actually wouldn't have surprised me if the UPL/UED had inferior military technology to the Koprulu Sector Colonies. The original Starcraft back-story from the booklet said that the UPL was a totalitarian state that controlled nearly all of humanity, aside from a handful of rogue areas. In the absence of a serious external or internal military threat, they might have simply let their military capabilities deteriorate over hundreds of years.

Hence my explanation for the relative parity. If the UPL had no local threats or competitors, that would affect the likely paths of technological development. One area that would see development would be FTL travel and communications, not only to make keeping control easier, but also for the economic benefits. Weaponry is unlikely to get any more powerful, as none of their concievable enemies would have the resources to develop superior weapons technology in usable amounts. As for size and doctrine, a lack of major threats would militate in favour of a small rapid-response force, though the possibility of a large-scale rebellion would make maintaining a large force with conventional doctrine worthwhile, for deterrent value if nothing else.

It is entirely likely that the UED has superior technology overall, but a lack of incentive means that it isn't represented in military applications. They sent the Koprulu-esque ships because there was nothing else available, and it would take time for them to develop new weaponry out of their civilian tech.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Okay, so the UED is definitely faster than the Federation (more than twice as fast, less than an order of magnitude faster - so it's a seriously big advantage but not an insurmountable one, especially if their firepower and industry are as comparatively weak as the Terrans'), but that's still all we know about them. They might be hundreds of times bigger than the Terrans, but maybe not - after all, most French Canadians are descended from about 26,000 Frenchmen who colonized New France, and now their descendants number about 7 million (and more in the States). Meanwhile, the population of France itself has maybe only doubled or tripled since that time.

But we still know nothing about UED firepower, defenses, or other special tech (do they have any defense against transporters? etcetera).

[Imperial528]

Terran battlecruisers are protected ship-wide by force fields from things like unwanted ship attachment, excess radiation, and such. I don't know how valuable they are in combat, but they should protect against transporters. I think it's safe enough to assume that UED starships have similar systems, since force fields go back to the oldest Terran battlecruiser classes known of.

[Omeganian]

So they actually do have superior military tech back at home?

That's interesting. It actually wouldn't have surprised me if the UPL/UED had inferior military technology to the Koprulu Sector Colonies. The original Starcraft back-story from the booklet said that the UPL was a totalitarian state that controlled nearly all of humanity, aside from a handful of rogue areas. In the absence of a serious external or internal military threat, they might have simply let their military capabilities deteriorate over hundreds of years.

The UPL used to control the humanity when it was confined to Earth. But, according to the BW manual, the rumors of the Zerg threat caused many formerly independent colonies to join the UPL, and that's what caused the UPL to change its name (i tried writing a fic with the basic premise of that backfiring as soon as news of the defeat arrive - with the still independent colonies conquering the UED).

Okay, so the UED is definitely faster than the Federation (more than twice as fast, less than an order of magnitude faster - so it's a seriously big advantage but not an insurmountable one, especially if their firepower and industry are as comparatively weak as the Terrans'), but that's still all we know about them.

The Voyager would have needed 70 years for 70 000 LY. the UED is 60 000 LY away, and its forces arrived within months if not weeks. That's at least two orders of magnitude difference.

They might be hundreds of times bigger than the Terrans, but maybe not - after all, most French Canadians are descended from about 26,000 Frenchmen who colonized New France, and now their descendants number about 7 million (and more in the States). Meanwhile, the population of France itself has maybe only doubled or tripled since that time.

There is a difference. There was plenty of space in Canada for expansion, but not in France. Interstellar expansion gives plenty of space. Considering the humanity was formerly confined to a single planet with a 27 billion population, the expansion wave would have likely been an impressive one.

[Simon_Jester]

In order for the plot to make sense the UED has to have much faster FTL than the Terrans, as evidenced by the fact that they were specifically sent to conquer the Dominion and pacify the Zerg, rather than say the Confederacy. Additionally, Admiral DuGalle comments to Vice Admiral Stukov during one of the cinematics that fighting Zerg in the open is not at all similar to watching one get dissected and analyzed on a lab table, which means that they were able to get agents to the sector, pacify Zerg for study, and return them to Sol to prepare for the invasion.

Yes. Then again, the Confederates left Earth very soon after the invention of warp drive. It stands to reason that the technology's improved a lot since then, even if things like laser cannons or machine guns (which might have been mature before they left) haven't.

[Omeganian]

The Koprulu Sector colony ships were stated to have an early prototype warp drive. The Phoenix would be a more adequate comparison than Voyager.

[Ariphaos]

This is all to say nothing of the fact that we have cinematics of Protoss carriers launching a BDZ-grade attack on Chau Sara, though with multiple ships. Battlecruisers may not be their equivalent, but it suggests that Starcraft is, power wise, somewhere in between ST and SW, and not necessarily close enough to ST that outnumbering them ~10:1 in capital ships is a sure victory for the Federation.

This above and beyond the fact that Wraiths can in fact fire while cloaked, and there are a lot more of them.

[Simon_Jester]

The Koprulu Sector colony ships were stated to have an early prototype warp drive. The Phoenix would be a more adequate comparison than Voyager.

Well, no. This was the first generation of warp drive seriously intended to move large ships- in Star Trek that'd be a Warp 4 or Warp 5-capable drive, probably. Something that's useful as more than a way to reach Alpha Centauri in one year instead of four.

This is all to say nothing of the fact that we have cinematics of Protoss carriers launching a BDZ-grade attack on Chau Sara, though with multiple ships. Battlecruisers may not be their equivalent, but it suggests that Starcraft is, power wise, somewhere in between ST and SW, and not necessarily close enough to ST that outnumbering them ~10:1 in capital ships is a sure victory for the Federation.

This above and beyond the fact that Wraiths can in fact fire while cloaked, and there are a lot more of them.

I'm a little reluctant to take high-end figures for the firepower implied there. Because at the same time, tactical nuclear weapons are still relevant on the battlefield, and the heavy Yamato gun is described as focusing the force of a 'nuclear explosion.'

Gigaton-range weapons don't feel right to me for Starcraft.

Bear in mind, by the way, that a Protoss fleet hovering in orbit might effectively BDZ a planetary surface by laying down saturation patterns of 'relatively' light weapons. 10 megatons per second adds up to something a lot more impressive after you've sustained fire for 10,000 seconds.