Negation invades Star Wars

[mr friendly guy]

Because Shroomy demanded it. One of my most favourite evil empires.

Scenario - Just prior to the New Jedi Order.

The New Republic is innundated by a fleet of organic ships. These are the last remnants of the once mighty Yuuzhan Vong from beyond the galactic rim. After years of fighting they have been crushed by an enemy from another universe. The Negation and their God Emperor

Despite having an irrational hatred of machine tech, the Vong agree to tell the New Republic all they know about the Negation in return for free passage to travel across the void and find another galaxy to settle. The NR agree to share this information with the Empire, Hapans and any other faction you care to name. The SW factions have one year of prep time. For the purpose of this Vs, victory conditions are

Negation
Conquer or destroy the civilisations in the Star Wars galaxy

New Republic
Kill the God Emperor or destroy so many ships and troops that the Negation withdraws.

Numbers
The full extent of the Negation population is unknown. But it is clearly a multi species empire spreading out at least 2 galaxies. It composes the entirety of known space in its universe. But if we make some assumptions like each planet has comparable population to modern Earth, they would have lots of troops to throw at the SW empire. Also assuming they can police their planets albeit sparsely (the Negation does get rebellions) one would still expect lots of industry.

Ship capabilities

FTL - clearly superior to Star Wars as they are transgalactic. A stolen engine on the black market allowed the heroes to go from one galaxy to another in hours.

Weapons - This image gives you an idea of the fire power of their ships. Supposedly they are powerful enough to "set the atmosphere alight."

Endurance - Their ships appear to be able to destroyed by MT explosions, although they most probably have different types of ships. It appears that ships aren't standardised, which makes sense given a lot of the species were conquered.

Wildcards

1. Different universal laws - The Negation hail from a universe where the laws of physics, well aren't universal. That is one sector of space may have one set of rules, another one totally different. As it stands they need to tinker with their ships and Lawbringers to allow them to function in our universe. For the purpose of the debate lets assume that the Negation have worked out how to make their stuff work in the SW universe, and a captured item from the Vong allows NR to work out how to make SW tech work in their universe.

2. Portal - the Negation can create portals to enter the SW universe

3. No other characters from the CG universe allowed. For the purpose of this debate, the Negation invades the SW universe instead of the Crossgen one.

4. Lawbringers - formed from Charon's discarded emotions and merged with the energy of Negation space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawbringers

The New Republic has its Jedi, but the Negation has their Lawbringers. Rather than me describing how powerful these guys are, let me show you.
Lawbringer QZTR punishes an entire planet for the blasphemy of one citizen.
part one
part two

QZTR getting a hole blasted in his chest

Few other powers a Lawbringer has
Forcefield generation
Telekinesis sufficent to paralyze Several humanoids, some super powered
Teleportation across planets
Firing multiple energy blasts simultaneously sufficient to kill a human easily. Well duh, given what he did to a whole planet.
Oh, and when someone says the Jedi will just TK so that blood doesn't flow into the brain of <insert foe here>, here is the Lawbringer being creative with his TK power. ouch

Here are the Lawbringers in all their glory. At least those ones that haven't turned against the Emperor (of which one is known to have done), killed by Appolyon (a few), killed by the heroes (one). Note there are most probably more than that, and it looked like there were at least a few hundred in the beginning.

5. Super powered troops
Ascended Transitioned humans. Well most probably not as powerful as the Lawbringers, they still pack a punch. To give you an idea of how powerful they are (since I am not going to scan everything in), imagine a Vong raiding party boarding a Negation ship. They surround general Murquade who them pulls out a gun and points to them. The Vong laugh saying that you can't expect that weapon to stop us. Murquade then replies, the weapon is not to protect me from you, but to protect my ship from me. Ship blows up with Vong in it and Murquade survives. This was what happened in the comic, only he was fighting against other Transitioned humans, who combined could easily move like half of a ship. And Murquade was winning before Obregon Kaine taught them tactics and how to outflank the general.

Clearly the Transitioned humans have super human endurance, can survive in space without a suit, energy powers, and they also demonstrate the ability to create "energy chains" to bind captives.

6. The God Emperor himself

The most powerful of the Transitioned humans. Obregon Kaine managed to blast his arm off with a small scout ship, however the Emperor just reattached it. Perhaps his most powerful act is here.

An Avatar of Danik (a Transitioned Atlantean who has been preparing to fight the Negation) blows up an Earth like planet. Not quite a DS level blast because we later do see some parts of the planet including buildings that was somehow survived, even if the planet now lacked sufficient gravity to pull itself together.

The act was not to kill the God Emperor, but his Queen. Danik fully expected Charon to survive. To elaborate further, Danik split himself into several beings to keep an eye of the Crossgen Sigil Bearers, who would be the soldiers he planned to use against the Negation. That means at a lower end, each weak Avatar is at least this powerful, and he must have at least had 10s of Avatars (one for each sigil bearer and two for the First), which are less powerful than Danik himself. Danik fully expected Charon to be stronger than him.

So with all this in mind, what happens. What can the SW factions do against the mad Emperor.

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, I demanded that you unleash them against the Daleks, mang, to spite this recent wave of miserable Dalek wankers.

[mr friendly guy]

Start low and go slow. Basically I am interested in what is the minimum sci fi civ required to beat the Negation. I am starting with Star Wars then moving up.

[Imperial Overlord]

So several galaxies worth of resources, ships that can burn atmospheres off planets, a number of planet wrecking superhumans, a larger number of super humans who can blow up warships, and an even more powerful god-emperor on top? Man, I thought my fantasy/sci-fi homebrews were high powered.

To start dealing with the Op's question, does the Negation have ways of getting their planet wrecking super humans through planetary shields?

[mr friendly guy]

To start dealing with the Op's question, does the Negation have ways of getting their planet wrecking super humans through planetary shields?

None that were demonstrated in the comics from what I recall. They have forcefield technology (some of the prisoners were imprisoned in such), but I haven't seem them extend it to an entire planet. Lawbringers can of course teleport vast distances and fly. Generally when a rebellion breaks out and the regular forces can't deal with it, Charon sends in his Lawbringers.

Their weapons clearly have planet busting capabilities, as Komptin activates an explosive device to destroy the prison planet when it becomes apparent the captives will escape. So one might argue that their offensive capabilities come close to SW, but most likely have weaker defensive ones.

[Murazor]

Since I fancy myself as something of a Crossgen expert, I'll take a crack at this:

Concerning Negation ship-mounted weapons, please observe this image. Though this planet is split in half offscreen, it was done by Negation regular forces. At this point of the Negation War, all Lawbringers were gathering for the strike against Elysia.

Concerning industrial output, one of the Negation warships active during the final story arc of Sigil was noted to be the size of a planet or some such thing. Considering the size of the space stations present around every major Negation world seen, this is believable.

Concerning Charon's personal power, during the Mark of Charon miniseries he essentially blew a solar anemone (critter larger than an Earth like planet and capable of crushing an Earth-like world with its tentacles) with little more than a handwave to make a point about how his government had benefited the universe at large.

Concerning Danik, there were thirty six different Sigil Bearers identified in the Crossgen universe, but not all of the avatars were equal. The one assigned to Brath, for example, was killed by having his eyes removed and being fed to a rabid bear by Roman legionaries expies.

As for superhuman delivery methods, the Negation has technological teleporters capable of operation across interstellar and possibly intergalactic distances. Komptin's initial plan to get out of the hellworld where he was sent by QZTR was to get a phone and call an old field who operated a military teleport platform in his homeworld, but Kryzzor was on the ball and cockblocked him.

EDIT: In a nutshell, the Negation wins and wins big. Unless he feels like sitting on his ass, Charon only has to teleport in orbit of whatever world he wants nuked and, supposing that he cannot simply blast the place regardless of planetary shields (which is a mighty strong assumption), he only needs to mind control whoever is in charge of the operation of said shields.

[mr friendly guy]

So what happens if we let SW build up their super weapons and any one shot stuff they might have. Essentially does this become ST vs SW, but instead of the Trek side pulling off their one shot wonder weapons, the Wars side will be doing it.

[mr friendly guy]

So I decided to upload some more scans given what Murazor mentioned.

solar anemone. Charon mentions that the planet being attacked has 26 billion sentients.

Charon dealing with said creature

[Connor MacLeod]

Several things:

1.) New REpublic isn't the Empire. It may not be as large as, industrious as, and it certainly isn't as militant as the Empire. Inf act I dont remember how big the NJO era REpublic was.

2.) Alot of vagueness about the military/industiral potential. The real issue is more one of logistics (they may have huge populations, lots of worlds and resources, but the rate at which they can use or deploy that is going to matter more.)

3.) setting planets alight suggests they can create global firestorms of some degree, but it doesnt necesarily mean blowing off the atmosphere (at least, not totally.) And even if we do interpret it that way, it still doesn't tell us variables.

4.) OP says they "appear to be destroyed by MT explosions" but that doesn't tell much about the way it does so (and that would possibly contrast with the planet killing, world destroying firepower somewhat, unless they operate on the "one hit one kill" combat philosohpy. It's not impossible, but again context matters greatly here.) At the very least it would skew calcing.

5.) all of the above are actually trivial considertaions. The REAL problem as I see it is the "different universal laws/rules" angle of the debate - there's alot of possible pitfalls, potential abuse, and other game-stopping considerations there unless that is addressed.

[mr friendly guy]

Had a quick look through Negation #4. It seems I remembered it wrong. The MT from a missile fired by one of the races all but genocided by the Negation didn't destroy one of their ships, it was merely a defense satellite. The ship which destroyed the satellite is described as antiquated.

Castellan Komptin chases the fugitive in an Interdictor class transport and easily outguns the fugitives and forces their ship to crash.

[ChosenOne54]

Uh, I demanded that you unleash them against the Daleks, mang, to spite this recent wave of miserable Dalek wankers.

So, your response to wank is counter-wank? That's even more miserable.

My recent threads weren't wanking anyway, I specifically dumbed down the Daleks to try and make a fair fight. If I was wanking, I would put the Daleks at the height of their power against the entire Star Wars universe and Culture.

[Imperial Overlord]

So the Negation can teleport planet busting humanoids across interstellar distances as well as the industrial capacity to create ships the size of a planet and planet cracking fleets? Those teleporting godlings are hell of a first strike weapon. Add in the transgalactic FTL and I think they're going to win.

[Murazor]

2.) Alot of vagueness about the military/industiral potential. The real issue is more one of logistics (they may have huge populations, lots of worlds and resources, but the rate at which they can use or deploy that is going to matter more.)

There is something interesting in the Sigil run... Essentially, while building their first extradimensional beach-head, in a few months they covered the surface of a gas giant that had literally been frozen solid by a superweapon of some kind earlier in the series with some kind of facility.

3.) setting planets alight suggests they can create global firestorms of some degree, but it doesnt necesarily mean blowing off the atmosphere (at least, not totally.) And even if we do interpret it that way, it still doesn't tell us variables.

No "some degree" about it. Extinction Wave generators, which are the standard self-destruct devices for all critical land-bound Negation facilities, turn planetary surfaces into molten slag in a few minutes.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9500/e ... fdestr.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8929/p ... tionwa.jpg

This, of course, says nothing of the power of ship mounted weapons but it does tell us that the Negation can reliably and regularly harness with their technology energies in the planet razing magnitudes (since nothing suggests the Extinction Wave to be technobabble), if nothing else.

4.) OP says they "appear to be destroyed by MT explosions" but that doesn't tell much about the way it does so (and that would possibly contrast with the planet killing, world destroying firepower somewhat, unless they operate on the "one hit one kill" combat philosohpy. It's not impossible, but again context matters greatly here.) At the very least it would skew calcing.

Negation ships range from crappy TIE style fighters that explode when they crash against smallish asteroids to big bastards the size of a planet. I'd need to know which one incident OP is talking about before giving my take in the matter.

5.) all of the above are actually trivial considertaions. The REAL problem as I see it is the "different universal laws/rules" angle of the debate - there's alot of possible pitfalls, potential abuse, and other game-stopping considerations there unless that is addressed.

"Different laws of physics" results in some absurd cosmetic differences (the human eye perceives that fire burns black in Negation space, for some no doubt exceedingly daft reason) and superpowers malfunctioning. Otherwise, baseline humans and humanoids can go without preparations or specific countermeasures without their biochemistry or technology malfunctioning. This should not be a major concern in this scenario.

[mr friendly guy]

So the Negation can teleport planet busting humanoids across interstellar distances as well as the industrial capacity to create ships the size of a planet and planet cracking fleets? Those teleporting godlings are hell of a first strike weapon. Add in the transgalactic FTL and I think they're going to win.

Lawbringers are generally used as a last resort weapon. The Negation actually tries to conquer and assimilate and convert others to the worship of the God Emperor. Lawbringers because they are totally nuts tend to leave the world lifeless. Charon punished QZTR once when the Lawbringer chose to punish someone against Charon's orders. I believe it was Komptin the Negation soldier in charge of looking after the fugitives. Of course the punishment was for QZTR to sit out of the battle as five lawbringers defeat an entire army of transitioned humans.

Thus they will rarely be used as a first strike weapon. The exception is when they assaulted Elysia, the homeworld of the First, who are supposedly of comparable power.

However I predict Lawbringers will be bought into play against recalcitrant worlds which put up more resistance.