Fictional Planet Composition

[Purple]

Introduction

I have had a discussion the other day about the topic of a certain fictional planet. In particular, the question was if a planet could exist that has both liquid deposits of lithium on the surface and is capable of sustaining organic life. This is my model for such a world.

The planet in question is roughly the same size as our Earth and it rotates around its own axis at a roughly similar rate. This conveniently gives us a planetary day roughly similar to one earth day. The planet orbits a Sun like star but with a higher speed giving us a planetary year of about 150 earth days. Furthermore, the path is elliptical and very elongated thus giving us a warm period of about 40-50 days (here from referred to as Summer) and a cold period (here from referred to as Winter) taking up the remainder of the year. Due to the way the planet orbits temperatures during these two periods vary massively. During the summer average temperatures fluctuate at 200-300 degrees Celsius while during the winter this drops to an average temperature of about 30-60 degrees. This setup thus allows for both a period of extreme heat where lithium is liquid and a period of cold where the planet sustains life.

Summer
The planetary summer lasts approximately 40-50 days and is characterized by scorching temperatures. The surface heats up to over 200 degrees Celsius destroying any organic life out in the open and melting the otherwise frozen lithium lakes. At the same time, temperatures in the upper layers of the atmosphere rise to the point where otherwise liquid lithium deposits in the upper cloud layer become gaseous thus creating clouds of lithium gas. During the winter, this gas is present as a condensate in the high clouds just like water fills rain clouds on earth.

As this happens the scorching temperatures cause most of the planets to evaporate. While the deepest oceans and seas will have sufficient amounts of water to remain in existence, be it with a massive decrease in volume all of the lesser deposits of liquid waters like rivers and lakes will completely vanish. This in turn will cause the formation of absolutely enormous cloud layers similar to our storm clouds. The water content in the sky will be so massive that it will end up blocking up most of the planets sky and transforming the whole summer period into the equivalent of an extremely hot and humid eternal night.

Winter
The planetary winter lasts for approximately 100 days and is the opposite of the planetary summer. As the planet moves farther and farther away from the star temperatures steadily start to decrease. This process is aided by the dark clouds that cover most of the sky and absorb great amounts of solar heat. At about 10-20 days into the winter temperatures drop to habitable levers at under 50-70 C and at mid winter the temperatures might drop as low as bellow 40. During this time, the lithium deposits on the surface freeze over much like rivers of water do on earth. As they do this they form stunning metal landmarks that make the whole planet look magnificent. At the same time, the water in the atmosphere condenses and starts raining down in massive quantities. Rivers and lakes fill back up and seas and oceans return to their maximum levels. However, due to the massive amounts of water in the atmosphere it newer has the time to return to the surface in full and thus the entire planetary winter is just one giant monsoon rainy season.

Native life
As can be guessed by the large amounts of liquid water this sort of planet could actually sustain and develop organic life. The native life forms however would have to be adapted to the massive shifts in temperature during the two major seasons. The best and perhaps only way to achieve this would be to take a page from the life style of creatures that survive in Earths extremes like its deserts and polar regions.

Much like polar life, all activity would be confined to the planetary winter. During this period the temperatures drop low enough to allow animals to move around and the abundance of water is paradise for plant life. Most plants will be similar to polar ones. This means that there will be no naturally occurring trees and long term plants. Instead, the plants will be seasonal blossoming and depositing their seeds all during the same season before dying off as the summer begins. The seeds than spend the summer under ground, protected from being baked by the ground and repeat the cycle next winter.

Animals would also be adapted in a similar way. Most of them will spend the summer hibernating within deep burrows, if at all possible dug under the lithium rivers as the molten metal will act as a mirror reflecting the suns heat and ultra violet rays. They will only emerge during the winter to mate and butcher each other and plants for food before once again going underground for the summer. Now, in theory the ideal forms of life adapted to this environment would be similar to desert life today. So that means no advanced forms of life like mammals but instead things like scorpions and insects. However with a little imagination I can see small mammals like rodents or even things the size of a small dog or cat adapted to such an environment. Anything larger than that however would be in trouble as it would be difficult for it to construct a sufficiently deep and large burrow.

Colonists
Just like the native life colonists on the planet would have to adapt to the seasonal cycle. They would spend the days in their air conditioned habitats living off hydroponics and the supplies they collect during the winter. And they would spend the winter building new shelters and infrastructure and using the abundance of water to grow crops for the next season.

The shelters would most likely be buried under the ground just like animal burrows to maximize protection from the scorching summers. However given the technology available to a space faring civilization of the FTL kind they could be anything from rustic mine shafts to what equates to a very comfortable space hotel.

Exit to the surface would be restricted during the summer with all non essential transit happening under the ground in tunnels. However, the colony could continue operating all year round as mining and other activities could go on all year long assuming underground work and/or a high degree of atomization.


Now, here is what I need you people to do. Analise the text I wrote here and answer the fallowing questions.
1. Could such a planet exist as described in the introduction or is it impossible?
2. If we say that the answer to #1 is yes, do you think my assessment of the climate conditions (water cycle, lithium cycle, climate, cloud cover etc.) and the life forms on it sounds reasonable/realistic?
3. Purely from an artistic standpoint, what do you think of it? Is it a good/cool idea to read about?

[Simon_Jester]

Problem with that.

Lithium is also a comparatively rare chemical element in the universe as a whole- it's unlikely that there will be billions of tons of the stuff floating around on a planetary surface. This is less important, though, than the question of chemistry.

Lithium doesn't occur in elemental form in nature, with reason- it's very reactive. It combines with many other chemical elements to form lithium compounds, which will salt the entire biosphere. It's water-soluble, it forms oxides, nitrides, and carbonates. Like sodium it burns when exposed to water in an oxygen atmosphere, potentially explosively. It reacts with nitrogen at room temperature which is practically unheard of- nitrogen is among the most inert of all gases.

Therefore, your ecosystem will have to deal with endless lithium fires, with lithium hydroxide deposits soaking up any CO2 in the atmosphere (a process which is used in spaceships to filter CO2 out of the air). Lithium is corrosive to human flesh; touching it is dangerous, breathing it likewise, and it forms a strong caustic chemical (lithium hydroxide) when exposed to water.

This will be an extremely unfriendly planet for carbon-based life that relies on water.

[Purple]

I don't disagree with anything you said. But I want to discuss it further to see the details of this place.

This will be an extremely unfriendly planet for carbon-based life that relies on water.

That was the intention. Ideally it would be a hellhole that no one wants to live on but that is valuable due to a freakishly large lithium deposit. And the only life would be as mentioned animals and plants that are highly adapted to the environment. Sort of like Dune.

Lithium doesn't occur in elemental form in nature, with reason- it's very reactive. It combines with many other chemical elements to form lithium compounds, which will salt the entire biosphere. It's water-soluble, it forms oxides, nitrides, and carbonates. Like sodium it burns when exposed to water in an oxygen atmosphere, potentially explosively. It reacts with nitrogen at room temperature which is practically unheard of- nitrogen is among the most inert of all gases.

Ideally I was thinking that the extreme heats of the sumer season could cause the lithium to melt and return to elemental form similar to the effect we get in refineries. And during the winter season, the torrential rains would keep the fires under control while it bonds with other stuff and water causing all sorts of nasty effects before settling down into compounds. And come summer these compounds once again start returning to the elemental state. Also, the idea of the combination of a monsoon rain season and firestorms all happening at once captures quite nicely the beauty of this place.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I don't disagree with anything you said. But I want to discuss it further to see the details of this place. :mrgreen:

This will be an extremely unfriendly planet for carbon-based life that relies on water.

That was the intention. Ideally it would be a hellhole that no one wants to live on but that is valuable due to a freakishly large lithium deposit. And the only life would be as mentioned animals and plants that are highly adapted to the environment. Sort of like Dune.

Lower your expected organism complexity. Less sandworms and more bacteria mats. Given the absurdly toxic environment and the ludicrous temperature swings, life more complex than extremophile bacteria isn't going to have a chance to evolve. It's not going to be habitable to humans, at all.

Lithium doesn't occur in elemental form in nature, with reason- it's very reactive. It combines with many other chemical elements to form lithium compounds, which will salt the entire biosphere. It's water-soluble, it forms oxides, nitrides, and carbonates. Like sodium it burns when exposed to water in an oxygen atmosphere, potentially explosively. It reacts with nitrogen at room temperature which is practically unheard of- nitrogen is among the most inert of all gases.

Ideally I was thinking that the extreme heats of the sumer season could cause the lithium to melt and return to elemental form similar to the effect we get in refineries. And during the winter season, the torrential rains would keep the fires under control while it bonds with other stuff and water causing all sorts of nasty effects before settling down into compounds. And come summer these compounds once again start returning to the elemental state. Also, the idea of the combination of a monsoon rain season and firestorms all happening at once captures quite nicely the beauty of this place.

Um. No. Please take a course in chemistry and try again. The majority of the lithium compounds aren't going to decompose at a paltry 200-300 degrees Celsius. Your planet is going to have to get to Venusian (and beyond) temperatures to get a natural refinery effect. At which point, the lithium will simply find something else to react with. The planet simply isn't going to behave the way you're hoping. They'll find the lithium by noticing that there's lithium compounds everywhere.

[Purple]

Lower your expected organism complexity. Less sandworms and more bacteria mats. Given the absurdly toxic environment and the ludicrous temperature swings, life more complex than extremophile bacteria isn't going to have a chance to evolve. It's not going to be habitable to humans, at all.

The dune comment was about the similarity sin the tone of the setting. As mentioned in the OP I envision life forms like scorpions and bugs. Nothing more complex than that. In essence, something that can dig in or live underground to survive.

Um. No. Please take a course in chemistry and try again. The majority of the lithium compounds aren't going to decompose at a paltry 200-300 degrees Celsius. Your planet is going to have to get to Venusian (and beyond) temperatures to get a natural refinery effect. At which point, the lithium will simply find something else to react with. The planet simply isn't going to behave the way you're hoping. They'll find the lithium by noticing that there's lithium compounds everywhere.

So the whole setting is doomed from the start since #1 is impossible?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Lower your expected organism complexity. Less sandworms and more bacteria mats. Given the absurdly toxic environment and the ludicrous temperature swings, life more complex than extremophile bacteria isn't going to have a chance to evolve. It's not going to be habitable to humans, at all.

The dune comment was about the similarity sin the tone of the setting. As mentioned in the OP I envision life forms like scorpions and bugs. Nothing more complex than that. In essence, something that can dig in or live underground to survive.

It's arguable life would ever leave the ocean bottoms with conditions as hostile as you're describing. A scorpion is a fantastically sophisticated form of life, compared to a slime mat.

Um. No. Please take a course in chemistry and try again. The majority of the lithium compounds aren't going to decompose at a paltry 200-300 degrees Celsius. Your planet is going to have to get to Venusian (and beyond) temperatures to get a natural refinery effect. At which point, the lithium will simply find something else to react with. The planet simply isn't going to behave the way you're hoping. They'll find the lithium by noticing that there's lithium compounds everywhere.

So the whole setting is doomed from the start since #1 is impossible? :(

Yes. Take one of the common products of lithium + water, lithium hydroxide. It melts at 462 degrees Celsius and decomposes at 924 degrees Celsius. Or lithium carbonate, which doesn't decompose until 1310 degrees Celsius. Or the lithium version of table salt (lithium chloride) which melts at 605 degrees Celsius and boils at 1382 degrees Celsius.

[Spectre_nz]

Simon and Terwynn have already beaten me to it on all the significant points, but;

Lithium isn't smelted. It's Electrofined. (I'm not even sure that's the correct term. It's produced by electrolysis at any rate)
Smelting metals requries a reducing agent to donate electrons, it's not just high temperatures that do it. You need to provide electrons to revert the metal to its elemental form rather than having it as an electron-deficient ion.

The reason Iron smelting works with coal is that the reducing agent being used is carbon monoxide.
If you want any form of ecosphere to be an ad-hoc smelter, it's going to have to have reducing conditions. So, oxygen is right out. Water is iffy but not impossible. Ammonia/methane or H2S atmospheres are more the go.

Things like Aluminium and titanium need fairly potent reducing conditions because they stubborly refuse to accept electrons once they've given them away. This is why those two metals have only been smelted sucesfully in comparitivly modern times, using electrolytic brute force to beat the shit out of them and get them to accept electrons.

You're in a similar situation with lithium. Its rather reactive and not easy to smelt.

So what are you trying to create? A world with liquid metal oceans? I'd use lead. It's less reactive, but doesn't solve all your problems. There are other low melting point metals, like ceasium, but they are typically quite reactive also.

Or do you want a lithium smelter? I'd aim for electrolytic smelting from the molten salt. High temperature sink-holes capped by hydro-carbons around a gas giant that induces a strong current flow? You're gonna have to come up with something pretty outlandish to get it to work.

Also; if you've got a planet rich in lithium, any asteroids in the system are also liable to be rich in it. And you're back to the old problem of it just not being feasible to bother traveling to other planets for any raw elemental material.

[Simon_Jester]

Ideally I was thinking that the extreme heats of the sumer season could cause the lithium to melt and return to elemental form similar to the effect we get in refineries.

No, because while solid metallic lithium has a nice low melting point, that doesn't mean other chemicals containing lithium do. Observe the difference in melting point between lithium and lithium oxide.

And during the winter season, the torrential rains would keep the fires under control...

That is literally like pouring gasoline on a flame. Lithium burns in water, when oxygen is present. Water plus lithium equals fire. This is a problem that will not be solved by adding more water.

...while it bonds with other stuff and water causing all sorts of nasty effects before settling down into compounds. And come summer these compounds once again start returning to the elemental state.

Temperatures of a few hundred degrees Celsius are nowhere near what it takes to break down things like lithium oxides, hydroxides, and carbonates. Look this stuff up, for crying out loud.

[Purple]

Alright, so to make the closing conclusions to this thread.
#1 A planet with such a distribution of sumer/winter and temperature changes could exist but #2 the environment I described could not as lithium simply will not work that way and #3 even if it did any life would be confined to bacteria at best.

Well, that is it than. Thank you for your time people. It has been a pleasure.