Moderator: NecronLord
Oh gods, really? So by "proving" your fandom, you're creating a thread specifically to encourage Honorverse wanking, since the Cylons with their tissue-paper thin, unshielded, ships and their short-range, mostly conventional warheads (they had some nukes, but their anti-ship weapons seem to be in the low-to-mid kiloton range. Their megaton nukes were strictly air-to-ground strike warheads,) would be an absolute cakewalk for the RMN.RedLocque wrote:Following up on my previous post and once and for all proving I am an avid fan of Weber's Honorverse, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how would a First Contact between the RMN (circa "Ashes of Victory", 9th of the main HH series) and the Cylons (circa Mini).
For the purposes of setting the mood, assume the composition of RMN forces in Cylon/Colonial space is the same as previous post on RMN vs. Minbari; and this time they are at the terminus of a new locus of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, meaning they can go back and forth and re-supply and/or receive reinforcements.
Okay, who's on first? :)
Red
The RMN doesn't broadcast unsecured wireless networks from its ships.which of the two is more proficient when it comes to hacking an enemies networks, the RMN or the Cylons?
You know, it's a big part of it. At least one battlestar was able to keep fighting the cylons after they 'switched them off' using the CNP. This is evidenced by the pieces of destroyed base star floating around Caprica in the Pilot. In this scenario, the cylons do not have the CNP advantage, and will have to rely on their own weapons when it comes to a fight. The Manties are tougher, more powerfully armed, and better at fighting at BVR.It's not just all about the size of their guns
Probably. They can jump very near to planetary surfaces (intra-atmosphere) so gravity probably isn't a big deal.Does Cylon/Colonial FTL work through increased gravity stress bands such as Impeller Wedges or Sidewalls?
Wait, are we going with the cylons attempting infiltration, or cylons v Manties in a fight? Because the Cylons do not use visual comms, they use radio's, so whether or not the RMN can differentiate doesn't matter, because its either acceptance of cylons as another species (Assuming the cylons don't try to blow them up), or a big fight.Is the RMN able to differentiate between humans and cylons
RedLocque wrote:Ok, first of all, you unmitigated fool:
I started this thread because I was honestly curious as to how others of my peers would see such a confrontation going. Most of what I've read throughout these boards lets me believe I am grossly uneducated when it comes to the actual technical sides of my favorite space-opera/sci-fi works, thus my asking for an educated guess or opinion.
As for "wanking", that is something you seem to be overly fond of, or hasn't it occurred to you to consider which of the two is more proficient when it comes to hacking an enemies networks, the RMN or the Cylons? To name just one example. It's not just all about the size of their guns; although judging from your comments I am not surprised that is the extent your imagination is able to reach.
Does Cylon/Colonial FTL work through increased gravity stress bands such as Impeller Wedges or Sidewalls?
Is the RMN able to differentiate between humans and cylons, or would the human models be considered "genies" such as the Wintons and the Harringtons?
Yes, I am pissed off by your cavalier and disrespectful answer to my post. Either take these questions in the spirit they are being made or butt out!
Red
If the Cylons know they are Cylons, the Manticorans can just ask "Are you a Cylon" in the presence of a Treecat. And there's probably detectable biological differences anyway (I mean, glowing spines?)RedLocque wrote:Is the RMN able to differentiate between humans and cylons, or would the human models be considered "genies" such as the Wintons and the Harringtons?
Yes, they use lasers. Example:barnest2 wrote:The RMN doesn't broadcast unsecured wireless networks from its ships.which of the two is more proficient when it comes to hacking an enemies networks, the RMN or the Cylons?
Plus, they use laser and gravity based communications (I think, at least laser)... Show me a cylon hacking a laser beam...
On Basilisk station wrote:"Excuse me, Ma'am, but I thought you'd want to know this. There's a three-cornered secure com net between Sirius, the Haven consulate, and the consulate's courier boat, Ma'am." Honor cocked her head, and Webster gave a small shrug. "I can't tell you much more than that, Skipper. They're using mighty tight-focused lasers, not regular com beams, and there's not much traffic. I've deployed a couple of passive remotes, but they're just catching the edge of the carriers. I can't tap into them without getting a receptor into one of the lasers itself, and they'd be sure to notice that."
I'm still not convinced that sidewalls can't be brute forced. Close-proximity nuclear strikes to battlecruiser-grade sidewalls (outside the sidewall, mind you) certainly did a number on Thunder of God in Honor of the Queen.barnest2 wrote:Hmm... Well it's accepted that the cylons had equal or less base-stars than the colonials had battle-stars. The colonials had a total of 120 battlestars of various kinds, which means the cylons can be assumed to have 100-120 base-stars.
The base stars have 220 missile launchers studded arounds their inner hulls, however, these can only launch kinetic/HE missiles or contact nukes, weapons that cannot penetrate the side-walls of a manticoran vessel.
I blame the difference between TV and literary genre. I can't think of many TV shows that have ships firing beyond visual range regularly, or have visual-range combat as rare as it ought to be in theory. Certainly not high-profile ones. Whereas in print there's almost no incentive at all to depict ships fighting at visual range. The reader can't see the ships any more when they're five miles apart than when they're five million miles apart.Now, a first contact will be interesting. People will go on about the capabilities of manticoran sensors, but we never see a base-star ever engage in battle beyond visual ranges, nor do we see the raiders fire at beyond visual range.
It's suicide, do Cylon Raiders do suicide attacks? I think "yes."Their FTL drives do give some interesting capabilities... It's possible that raiders could jump inside Manty wedges to fire contact nukes at the vessel. I wonder if anyone thinks this is possible?
Planetary gravity wells are to Honorverse impeller wedges as a mild breeze is to getting hit by a train. I wouldn't bet on it. But if they can do it, they'd probably try, simply because it's their best chance of accomplishing anything.barnest2 wrote:Probably. They can jump very near to planetary surfaces (intra-atmosphere) so gravity probably isn't a big deal.Does Cylon/Colonial FTL work through increased gravity stress bands such as Impeller Wedges or Sidewalls?
They most probably can, I however seriously doubt the Cylons have the firepower to do it.Simon_Jester wrote:I'm still not convinced that sidewalls can't be brute forced.
Except those warheads went of inside the sidewall.Close-proximity nuclear strikes to battlecruiser-grade sidewalls (outside the sidewall, mind you) certainly did a number on Thunder of God in Honor of the Queen.
78 ton missiles hitting at .25c are essentially a nonissue to a battlecruiser. I don't know what the Cylon KE missiles mass but I seriously doubt they're anywhere that fast. And given IIRC Cylon nukes are double figure KT yet a serious thread to nBSG capital ships, I doubt they can spam enough of those to overwhelm the sidewalls, either.Two of them vanished in sun-bright fireballs that shook Thunder t her keel as twin, 78 ton hammers struck her sidewall at .25c. But for all their fury, those two were harmless, but their sisters' sidewall penetrators functioned as designed.
About the best the toasters are going to get. They have one thing going for them-their missiles are tiny compared to what the Honorverse is used to, and they have no wedge meaning they'll be far harder to track than the threats the Manties are used to. Of course, they also seem to be slow as molasses compared to what the Honorverse is used to, so this could go either way.Planetary gravity wells are to Honorverse impeller wedges as a mild breeze is to getting hit by a train. I wouldn't bet on it. But if they can do it, they'd probably try, simply because it's their best chance of accomplishing anything.barnest2 wrote:Probably. They can jump very near to planetary surfaces (intra-atmosphere) so gravity probably isn't a big deal.Does Cylon/Colonial FTL work through increased gravity stress bands such as Impeller Wedges or Sidewalls?
I've talked about this before- if you don't have a brute firepower edge over the Manties, and you do have tactical FTL, your best bet is nearly always to use tactical FTL to fire down the throat of their wedges. It's not a good plan. It's just the best plan you have. All the alternatives are worse (beam duel against their broadside, missile duel at any conceivable range, etc.)
As mentioned, those nukes had "sidewall penetrators", which disrupt sidewalls. That said, almost certainly both sidewalls and wedges can be brute forced; Weber does often use phrases like "no known weapon" can penetrate them; as in, known to the Honorverse. If, say, the Xeelee suddenly showed up and threw a neutron star at one I'm sure it would crunch the ship sidewall, wedge and all easily. But I see no reason to think that anyone with less firepower than Honorverse can brute force it.Simon_Jester wrote:I'm still not convinced that sidewalls can't be brute forced. Close-proximity nuclear strikes to battlecruiser-grade sidewalls (outside the sidewall, mind you) certainly did a number on Thunder of God in Honor of the Queen.
Except those warheads went of inside the sidewall.Batman wrote:Close-proximity nuclear strikes to battlecruiser-grade sidewalls (outside the sidewall, mind you) certainly did a number on Thunder of God in Honor of the Queen.
78 ton missiles hitting at .25c are essentially a nonissue to a battlecruiser.[/quote]I've never liked this- from a physics standpoint the sidewall ought to just laugh at laser head beams if it's that tough. It's just... incoherent how they're so close to transparent to electromagnetics and totally immune to arbitrary amounts of anything else.Two of them vanished in sun-bright fireballs that shook Thunder t her keel as twin, 78 ton hammers struck her sidewall at .25c. But for all their fury, those two were harmless, but their sisters' sidewall penetrators functioned as designed.
To use a really, really bad bit of evidence, which is the official RPG published by Margaret Weiss, the longest sensor range of BSG era ships is several thousand miles.Simon_Jester wrote: Do we have range figures given in the scripts? I think we should give those at least some weight.
You knows, this gives me the mental picture of a swarm of bees trying to swarm a guy armed with a flamethrower in a tight corridor.barnest2 wrote:Armies of raiders are not hard to find. Each base star carrier somewhere between 400-800 raiders (with a third down for maintenance at any one time). So ten base-stars gives you 6000 operational raiders...
Add in that a raider can carry 12 nuclear missiles... Raider swarm is their only viable tactic. It could be fun to see them do it though
Very. They can make multiple jumps very rapidly, as we see in at least one episode.Simon_Jester wrote:Are raiders jump-capable?
This is their only option in terms of striking planets. Raiders can jump into atmosphere, carry nukes, and make multiple jumps, meaning they can devastate a planet at high speed.Simon_Jester wrote:And depending on BSG-verse jump ranges and the relative position of both combatants, they may enjoy a considerable advantage in terms of deep strike missions- jumping into Honorverse systems, bombarding, and jumping out before the defense can respond. Honorverse system defenses aren't really very good at coping with a sudden sneak attack, because they're organized around dealing with very powerful threats that take an hour or more to materialize.
hehe. I like that image...iborg wrote: You knows, this gives me the mental picture of a swarm of bees trying to swarm a guy armed with a flamethrower in a tight corridor.
Rate of jump repetition? Being able to make a twenty light year jump (or 100) every day is quite different from being able to make an equal-sized jump every hour, or every minute.barnest2 wrote:Very. They can make multiple jumps very rapidly, as we see in at least one episode.Simon_Jester wrote:Are raiders jump-capable?
Ranges for the BSG are around 20 light years per jump at the most (which is a 50 year old ship), and cylon ships have much better FTL drives than colonial ones.
Colonial battle-star and civilian ships are able to make what is assumed to be a five light year jump every 33 minutes, with a spin up time (time to recharge J-drive) of 20 minutes.Simon_Jester wrote:Rate of jump repetition? Being able to make a twenty light year jump (or 100) every day is quite different from being able to make an equal-sized jump every hour, or every minute.
This. They have a 'red line' an imaginary sphere that is the maximum range they can accurately plot a jump. With better jump comp's, they can jump further, because they can plot their end point more accurately.OmegaChief wrote:That said, the limis on colonial Jump Drives appear to be in the targeting systems, as when they get that jump computer brain from the heavy raider, the Raptors are able to make jumps in excess of this and much quicker too.
Ha, that reminded me of Schlock Mercenary using that very metaphor for a similar scenario with lots of weak ships against a bigger more advanced one:barnest2 wrote:hehe. I like that image...iborg wrote: You knows, this gives me the mental picture of a swarm of bees trying to swarm a guy armed with a flamethrower in a tight corridor.
And then get obliterated out of hand when the Solarian League finds out that the Cylons violated the Eridani Edict.barnest2 wrote:This is their only option in terms of striking planets. Raiders can jump into atmosphere, carry nukes, and make multiple jumps, meaning they can devastate a planet at high speed.
They are much less likely to succeed at ship-to-ship combat, but if they just want to do huge damage to manty worlds... they have a chance.
