Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

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Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I forgot about this last time simply because.. well it was getting on towards the fucking holidays. that happens. so I have some lost time/ground to make up for. I've decided that the next sets of IA books will be 3 and 4. Taros and Anphelion. Tau and Tyranid. They were the first two of the 'encounter' books breaking away from the 'general vehicle display' of the first two books. From this point onwards each book (or series of books) would be themed with a particualr enemy (or sometimes groups of enemies.) 5-7 was Chaos (and grimdark, and trench warfare) and Ia 8 was Orks (and some very stupid Raven Guard.)

We start with IA3. imperial armour 3 is guaranteed to generate a great deal of love or hate, depending on who your are a fan of. IA3 is one of those novels that highlights, for me, one of the chief flaws in the IA fluff - it's basically as if they wargamed the scenario out (or wrote the wargaming portion) and then decided to try to squeeze the fluff in to work with it. Maybe there is a writer somewhere who could make it work, but it really doesn't work here. To be fair this is not a major battle by Imperial standards, but that is also part of the problem. It's kinda like the way the Avatar of Khaine gets used as a 'power benchmark' for people like Marneus Calgar or Gabriel Angelos. Having them kick the Avatar's ass makes them look badass and powerful, but it also makes the Avatar look fucking weak. I mean when was the last novel you saw a powerful Avatar? The only case I can think of is Shadow point.

Well in IA3 the Imperial Guard is the "Avatar". It basically exists to get its ass kicked by the Tau to make them look badass, and to make the Space marines look better. Who make an appearance only at the beginning and the end of the book, inexplicably (will be dealt with later. ) otherwise the rest is poor tactics on the IG part designed to basically guarantee the Tau a victory. Troops get allocated piecemeal, Advances move at such a glacial pace that the only way they could make it easier for the tau is to wear brightly coloured clothing festooned with bullseyes. And the Imperium HAS to lose because... well the Tau need to win. If the Imperium had launched a serious assault (like say they do in Taros) they probably would have crushed the Tau.

On the other hand, IA3 does show what the Tau are good at, and it can also highlight the important things that allow them to win (that being, an unassailable position of logistics, intact and available industrial base, knowledge of and preparation of the terrain, etc.) They literally start off with most very advantage defensively, and the Imperials will give them more, and they exploit it. And the way they managed to use the Water caste to take the place intact is impressive and in line with how they operate. It's easy to 'hate' the Tau for this sort of 'luck'.. but its not really them. What is annoying about the tau isn't so much the tau themselves (they do have their drawbacks, like lack of personal freedom) but rather the fans. It just happens that people who write them are also fans, but that can't be helped.

Another interesting aspect to all this is that I wrote this up and was intending to post it before reading Savage Scars. But having read it well.. there's a great many similarities between the DGC and what happens on Taros, as far as force disributions/sizes, objectives, etc. and it goes without saying that Savage Scars shows how Taros MIGHT have turned out without all the handwaving (It actually makes the stuff in Taros look unintentionally more absurd.) However, because I have to adjust commentary to reflect Savage Scars, the update will be slower and more time consuming. This is also why I won't touch Eisenhorn this round (I'll get to it later in the week, maybe with another Taros update.)

Also taros is an example at me trying to sound all 'tactikul', which I am sure i am bound to screw up. I am going to try to adjust those comments too, but I do invite commentary form others on the tactical side of things. Indeed I was thinking of asking Captain Orsai/Black Admiral to offer his insight, because he' s probably got more interesting things to say about that than I do. I freely invite, nay beg, questions, interjections, and even corrections about the tactics stuff, because I am sure I will miss, ignore or otherwise forget something. I may not agree, but I'll at least try to listen.

I don't have time for a lengthy update so we'll start with mostly background stuff.


Page 7
The history in this book would serve as an example of how, and why, the Imperium and Tau fight....

...

It would be an example of the kind of conflicts the Tau Empire engages in. Essentially it is border war fought over mineral reseources. For the Imperium it is quite a small affair, the kind of conflict that I imagine flairs-up thorughout the Imperium on a daily basis. It is not fought with huge resources, and in no way compares to say the Battle for the Cadian Gate (to which it is contemporaneous) or the 3rd War for Armageddon. The High Lords of Terra will lose no sleep over Taros - if they ever even hear about it!

Conversely, for the Tau Taros is a large and serious conflict. They do not have the endless resources of the Imperium, and the commitment to Taros represents a sizeable deployment of the T'au Sept. Despite the Tau's rather 'nice-guy' image, this is also a war of aggression, to expand the Empire and serve the Greater Good. I like this idea, the Tau might seem reasonable when compared to the Imperium's other implacable enemies, like Chaos or the Tyranids, but they are ruthless in pursuit of their own ends.
Generally out of universe, but a commentary on the scale of the conflict between Tau and Imperium. It goes without saying that the size difference means Taros is alot more important to the Tau than it is to the Imperium, and hence we can expect a disproportionate amount of resources applied to a conflict. Out of universe this is an attempt at 'game balance' because if the Imperium went into this the same way they went into Vraks (EG millions of troops) the Tau probably would have been crushed due to attrition. but this wans't a major Imperial force, and it was hamstrung by too many problems at higher levels (strategic and operational) for it to succeed: Politics, human stupidity, other more important wars going on (like a Black Crusade), inconsistent and unreliable logistics, and so on. They *might* have had a chance with better tactics, but things were stacked against the Imperials from the beginning, and without better tactics they were screwed.

The Tau of course perform brilliantly.


Page 10
It is the greatest empire in human history, and as a great empire the casual observer might think that the Imperium is strong - strong enough to resist and defeat any threat - but it is not.

In truth, the Imperium is failing. The galaxy is a dark and terrible place, filled with bloodthirsty aliens, malign powers and horrors too terirble to name. Beset by external wars and internal divisions the Imperium of Man must constantly fight for survival.
Obligatory "Imperium is DOOOMMMEEED" stuff.


Page 10
The continued maintenace and protection of the Imperium is governed by the Adeptus Administratum, a vast and labyrinthine bureacracy centered on Terra, ,from which every segmentum, sector, sub-sector and solar system is run. The task is vast and complex, so complex that the Administratum cannot control every aspect of it. Within the Administratum sub-organizations have their own areas of responsibility.
It goes on to mention the Departmento Munitorum in particular, and we know its purpose. Despite what it says, I sometimes question whether the Administratum does much of anything besides be a parasite and an obstruction.


Page 10
the Imperial Guard is a fighting force consisting of billions of men and millions of fighting vehicles.It is deployed to warzones and garrisons across the galaxy. At any one time the Imperial Guard might be engaged in thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of conflicts, all of whcih need supplying.
Obligatory IG "big, billions of troops, lots of vehicles." I suppose if we took it literally it might imply the ratio of vehicles to troop is something like 1000:1 (give or take an Orde rof magnitude or so) But since 5th edition there's trillions of guardsmen.. this might mean billions of vehicles. Hell look at the implied hive world ratios (millions of vehicles and 100 million men IIRC)

Also an indication of the logistical nightmare facing the IG and munitourm. That anything gets done at all is a miracle.

PAge 10
Cadia is a bastion world, the most militaristic in the Imperium; a hugely strong fortress-world protected by fleets of the Imperial Navy, orbited by powerful battle stations, and defended by the strongest bastions, garrisoned by regiments of hardy Cadian Shock Troops.
Brief commentary on the defenses around Cadia.

Page 11
The capture of the Cadian Gate would require a huge assault, and plunge the Imperium into its largest single war since the arrival of Hive Fleet Kraken on the distant Eastern Fringe. When Abbadon's Crusade struck it would be a war that required the full weight of the Imperium's resources to win. It would be a battle of titanic proportions.
13th Black Crusade compared to conflict with Hive Fleet Kraken. Whether this means Abbadon actually commits that level of force or this is an over-reaction by the Imperium to a Chaos incursion, is up for debate. Given the 13th Black crusade book and the GK novels, Abbadon's little invasion was actually segmentum wide (although beyond the Eye much of it was chaos uprisings, wolfpacks, and gneral raiding and sabotage type stuff.) Between this, Armageddon (in Segmentum Solar) and all the tyranid stuff cropping up, its small wonder noone gave a shit about Taros.

Page 11
War on such a massive scale does not come secretly or by surprise. The Imperium is not completely blind to events within the Eye of Terror. Sages and Seers were forecasting dire warnings long before Abbadon launched his crusade Omens taken from the Emperor's Tarot predicted teh threat. Raids were increrasing around the Eye of Terror. The Adeptus Mechancius Exploritas launched nullships deep into the Eye of Terror, to send back information about events inside.
..

The Twelve High Lords of Terra, the council that rules the Imperium in the Emperor's place, long debated what course of action to take. It was clear tht the defences must be strengthened, reserves must be found, weapons, ammunition and supplies stockpiled on armoury worlds across Segmentum Obscurus. Space Marine Chpaters must be readied and positioned to respond to the attack. Whereever the hammer-blow fell the Imperial guard must first hold, and then drive back, the followers of Chaos.
Examples of the warnings and actions foeshadowing the 13th Black Crusade. The use of predictive measures such as precognition and the Tarot probably go some way to help offset the somewhat sluggish responsiveness of elements of the Imperium to threats (at least the major ones.)

Note the nullship reconnaissance reference.

Page 11
Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade would indirectly affect every part of the Imperium, whether it was demands for new Imperial Guard regiments, increased tithes or higher production from the forge worlds to meet supply demands.

..

In Ultima Segmentum, the largest of the five great Segmentums that divide the Imperium, the effects would also be felt, even as far away as the Eastern Fringe.
This would tend to suggest a bit of an over-reaction to Abbadon, but perhaps due to caution. I imagine they figure "better safe than sorry" is a good policy. Of course considering the shit Abbadon was pulling, and the importance of Cadia to the defence of the Eye... who can say that? Besides the Tau are a single sector-scale threat at best. The Eye is a segmentum-level threat, and its MUCH closer to Terra.

Page 11
Stygies VIII is one of Ultima Segmentum's greatest forge worlds, and one of the Adeptus Mechanicus's largest research and production facilities. Stygies VIII stands in the second tier of forge worlds, with Mars alone on the top tier. Situated in the Vulcanis system and covering the entire surface of the eigth moon of the ringed gas-giant Stygies, the forge world is one of the most productive in Ultima Segmentum, and of great importance to the Imperium's war efforts.
Stygies VIII described. Only outproduced by Mars, who is the "only" one on its own tier. This also introduces the idea of different 'classes' or scales of Forge World, much in the same way there are diffreent 'grades' of hive world (Thracian Primaris, Armageddon, necromunda.. with inversely proportional degrees of habitability/sustainability and population/industrial capability.)

Page 11
As a forge world, Stygies VIII does not pay tithes to the Administratum, insted it is bound to supply arms, munitions and equipment to the Departmento Munitorum for use by the Imperial Guard.
This is a very important task, productivtiy is carefully monitored to meet demand forecasts (itself something of an arcane art practiced by the Adeptus Mechanicus Logis). Should the forge world fall behind it might have serious consequences in the future when, in some far-off warzone, the ammunition or replacement weapons begins to run out. The Deparrtmento Munitorum spends alot of its time and resourcecs making sure this does not happen. Carrying the authority of the Master of the Administratum, Departmento Munitorum officials arrived on Stygies VIII with a new set of production figures and targets. The forecasts of a coming Black Crusade meant many new Imperial Guard regiments were being raised, and these fighting men needed equipping.
Again we see that the Imperium appears to offset a great deal of its apparent "sluggish" responsiveness to some threats by taking certain preemptive actions (the "demand forecasts) - stockpiling is another similar one (as we see with IA5, the Imperium stockpiles the hell out of some worlds.)

That said, I tend to take such possible demands from the Munitorum with a grain of salt given the implied scale of conflicts in the Imperium, general propoganda, and the aforementioned stockpiling.

Page 11
At this council Stygies VIII argued that if production was to be increased, then more refined and raw materials would need to be found. The lifeblood of any forge world is the material it consumes. For production on the scale of Stygies VIII, vast maounts of minerals and chemicals are required. Mining planets across the Imperium supplies these demands. The task of finding new materials was a big one, and the Departmento officials returned to Terra to begin it. Administratum auditors set about finding where reserves had been located and catalogued, and where planetary-audits suggested that extra productivity might be squeezed from refineries.
Forge worlds seem to have at least some potential to increase output if needed, at least in short terms (they don't run at full capacity. Which is reaosonable - you'd want safety margins, you'd want times of slow down to run maintenance and such, etc.) It is quite likely that resource availability is one of the key factors in production rates, given the need to hunt for more resources.

On the other hand, it does imply that the capacity of the Imperium's resources (EG mining) is running closer to the max. Whether this is literal threat or stockpiling due to propoganda and siege mentality, it is hard to say.

Page 11
Taros was a small mining planet deep in Ultima Segmentum. It was unremarkable except for two things: the estimated size of the planet's untapped mineral wealth and secondly, its rather too-close-for-comfort proximity to the expanding borders of the alien Tau empire.

..

Auditor-Prime Nymus Dree and his team of scribes and archivists were dispatched to inform the Planetary Governor of Taros of his new increaesd production targets and to help organise how the targets could best be met. Dree was authorised to use the Departmento's ultimate snaction. Under the conditions of the Pax Imperialis, if the Planetary Governor could not, or would not, meet the icnreased targets, then he would be replaced by a new Governor, one who could.
Taros described. As planets in the Imperium go, it is considered fairly unremarkable and its small wonder why they would not give a shit about it. To give you an idea, in the novel 'Emperor's Mercy' the local subsector IG military forces had intended to abandon a 19 billion strong (but lightly garrrisoned by 400,000 guard) system during a Chaos assault which was deemed less important than the rest of the subsector. and this was on the Eastern fringe as well.. fairly close to Tau space, in fact. so yeah, Taros is pretty unimportant. The Tau have a gift for targeting places like that, really.

Page 12
Five thousand years ago an Explorator vessel discovered and categorised their homeworld, T'au.

..

They [the Tau] were regarded as no threat to the Imperium. The world was scheduled for routine cleansing and then re-colonisation.

T'au's fledgingly inhabitants were saved when the Imperium's fleet, dispatched to clear and colonise T'au, was destroyed in a freak and violent warp storm, which cut off the world from further human contact.
Tau origins. The bit bout the "freak warpstorm" is interesting and ominous - some "warp capable" entity seems ot be watching over the Tau (possibly the Eldar.)

Page 12
Over the course of just a few thousand years the Tau evolved and developed a sophisticated culture and caste system, based on dynamic expansion and a holistic philosophy of 'all working together towards one end'. Driven by their ideal of 'the Greater Good', the Tau made huge and rapid strides in science and technology.
"dynamic" is a word you will often see used in referencce to the Tau, especially in this book. I have learned to grow to despise the word 'dynamic'.


Page 12
..The Tau finally encountered the Imperium again when one of their spacecraft, probably innocently, entered the Devlan system.

..

..the Tau vessel was attacked by Devlan's system defence ships, and was unable to make an escape before being destroyed by the Imperial navy.

...

Adeptus Mechanicus Genetors, investigating DNA material taken from the destroyed ship discovered that the genetic material was the same as that originally found on T'au six millenia ago.
First official Imperium/Tau encounter. Note the implication that the Imperial Navy is running system defence ships.

Page 12
Rogue Traders and Merchant Captains were dispatched to the Eastern Fringe to investigate further, only to discover that the Tau had already expanded from their homeworld and started colonising other worlds throughoug the small but densely packed cluster of star systems around their homewold. Several other minor alien races had been inducted into thsi small but growing empire. Worse still, several of the Imperium's worlds had also started trading with the aliens, whose negotiators had learned human lagnuages and customs and busied themselves making diplomatic contact with surrounding worlds.
The Imperium uses Rogue Traders and other merchants to scout out the Tau. This is likely something that inspired or was meant to refelct what happened in the Rogue Trader novels.

Page 12
In 742.M41 the Damocles Gulf Crusade was launched. It failed. Several Tau colony worlds were successfully captured, but a combination of the Tau's advanced military technology, their ferocious alien allies, and an unshakeable belief in the cause of 'the Greater Good' eventually halted the Imperium's crusade...
The Crusade was, as we know such things, rather small as Crusades go, and preusmably relatively unimportant given other threats (Tyranids for one.) And to be fair it didn't exactly 'fail'. What happened was that the Tyranids showed up and they had to ignore the Tau and deal with the bigger threat. this becomes something of a trend really. the Tau will be saved by the appearance of some other bigger threat (it happened in the Space Marine codex at least once as well as I recall.) I'm sure the Tau think they stopped the Imperium, of course.

It also bears noting that in Savage Scars, the Imperium was making headway against the Tau, and they had a force not much bigger than the Taros intervention one (it was better lead and supplied though. It still had some hefty political problems and some logistical difficulties behind it, though.)


Page 12
Tau society is very homogenous, and characterised by an ethos of 'togetherness'. This is one of the race's greatest strengths. They always work together for the good of all Tau.
This 'unity' will have interesting implications once I get into dealing with the Fire Warrior novel and some of the deathwatch stuff.

Page 12
The Water Caste are generally diplomats, politicians and administrators. The Earth Caste are artisans, constructors and labourers. The air Caste are pilots, messengers and spaceship crew.
Air, Earth and Water castes described.

Page 12
The Fire Caste are warriors and protectors. Selective breeding within this [Fire] caste has developed members which are slightly larger and strronger than other Tau.
The Tau evidently do practice some forms of Eugenics. This has been also indicated in other novels like Fire Warrior, where Tau breeding is tightly regulated (and inter-caste breeding is apparently forbidden.) They also practice population control and reproductive management (which is where the forced sterilization comes from. People tend to exaggerate this in their desire to point out how 'not nice' the Tau are, but it makes perfect sense from their POv.

Page 12
Ethereals are a group of councillors and advisors who seem to have a strong, almost religious, hold over other Tau. They are regarded with awe and veneration by the members of other Castes. The Ethereals act as guides to all the other Caste leaders.
Ethereals described.

Page 12
Unlike many of the alien races encountered by Mankind, the Tau are not naturally hostile or aggressive. The Tau's dynamic, young and energetic society means that their rapid expansion has brought them into contact with other alien races. It is known Tau military forces have fought and defeated several large Ork attacks. They have also recently encountered the Tyranid hive fleets, which are starting to threaten the borders of their empire.

..
The Imperium sees the Tau Empire as a threat (all be it not its greatest threat), and the Imperium's authorities will not standby and let aliens take over the Emperor's worlds or see its citizens forced to submit to alien domination.
There's that word "dynamic" again. young is another one. Of course since the Taros book the Tau had other serious problems (like the War of Dakka) and problems with the adaptability of the 'Nids (lucky for them the Cadians showed up.)

The "tau are a threat" angle is curious. It cannot refer to conquest of the Imperium, given the size disparity. In all probability the "threat" lies in the whole "contamination by filthy alien ideas/technology/etc." xenophobia angle, which means we're into the 'paranoia/propoganda' angle of things. I mean think about it. Every sector of the Imperium (Scarus in the eisenhorn/ravenor novels, or Calixis and its surroundings in the FFG games) has its own native alien threats who are at least as troublesome if not moreso than the Tau, The tau might be bigger, but they aren't a major empire. They aren't even Eldar Scale (much less Orks, or Tyranids.)

Page 12
No doubt, in time, the twelve High Lords of Terra would like to see this minor but irritating alien threat quashed altogether. A genocidal crusade to exterminate the Tau would be welcomed.

..

Currently such a crusade is just not possible.
Tau are a "minor but irritating" threat but cannot amass (currently, as of the 13th Black Crusade) forces to terminate them. Which again makes you wonder why they're considered a big deal in the previous quote.


Page 12
The Tau Empire, although small by the Imperium's standards, still consists of some hundred worlds. The forces needed to conquer them all would be immense. The tau military has already proven themselves a match for the Imperial Guard, and there are too many other urgent wars, not least the threat of the Tyranid hive fleets, which are a huge drain on the Imperium's manpower. Lately, there is also the threat of Abbadon's 13th Black Crusade.
Again, the Imperium has other enemies to deal with than the Tau, much to the Tau's good fortune.
I'm not sure what "immense" is supposed to mean - something aorund the size of the Sabbat World's crusade ought to be able to handle it, if competently handled.

PAge 12
..the Tau are quite willing ot match fire with fire. When diplomatic means fail they are becoming well versed and more confident in the use of military power to obtain their own ends. Raiding, bushfire wars, invasions, and counter-invasions are becoming increasingly common currency along the borders of Tau space.
Well of course. Despite their "dynamic good guy" image, the Tau are just as ruthless and expansionist as eveyone else in 40K. If they resort to nonmilitary means it's because nonmilitary means can save them military and economic resources better used elsewhere whilst adding to their Empire.

Page 12
The Tau are a roughly humanoid, bi-pedal alien race. They are generally smaller in stature than humans, shorter and with less muscle mass. Their skin has a greyish-green or blue colouring. They have two eyes and a mouth but no obvious olfactory or auditory organs. Each hand has three digits and a single opposable thumb.

...

Tau have far shorter tibia and fibia bones but their feet have elongated talus and cuneiform bones and two large, central, weight-bearing toes. The Tau have evolved to stand and move without the use of their heels.

Tau Fire Warrior soldiers seem to possess mainly qualities broadly similar to human norms, such as endurance levels and pain tolerances.
Tau physiology.

Page 13 -
Centered on their homeworld of T'au, it contains approximately 100 colonised worlds , including the homeworlds of several other minor alien races.
Scope of Tau empire. Bulk of it seems to be mostly Tau worlds.

Page 13
Each mine was requested ot hand over productivity statements, going back for ten or twenty years. Several mineowners could not, their record were incomplete, but most responded and from them Dree began to get an overall picture of how much ore had been exported off Taros. Next he looked into survey and geological reports about new lodes and the size of these finds. From this information he gained a good idea of how much mineral wealth remained.

..

Or had Stygies VIII got it wrong, in which case the forecast figures might also be mistaken, and the far-reaching effects of this could result in a future lack of supplies.
Adminsitratum in action! Interestingly, they do seem to give a damn about future resource/supply usage.


Page 14 -
The Tau had a long time interest in the planet of Taros.

..

It had a breathable atmosphere, and although it was a harsh desert planet (the Tau themselves are better adapted to hot climates than cold), it has some water and is capable of sustaining life. Best of all, it had abundant mineral wealth.

..

Capturing Taros would involve a major war, and the Ethereals on T'au did not believe the gains outweighed the risks.
Its not believed the Tau could risk direct warfare with the Imperium without necessity.

Page 14
Diplomatic moves might bring results if the Water Caste played a quiet, patient games.

..

..the Water Caste had learnt that many Planetary Governors could not be seen to be in negotiations with aliens, for fear of their own rulers finding out. However deals and small trading could be negotiated if everything was kept secret. Merchant guildmasters and the leaders of trading cartels were rich, greedy men, and a chance to trade with the dynamic Tau Empire offered them riches they could not find anywhere else on the Eastern Fringe.

A delegation of the most experienced and cunning Water Caste diplomants was sent to Taros to seek a meeting with its rulers. This team included human representatives from other worlds already working with the Tau. Armed with assurances that the Tau Empire had no ambitions to continual expand in this are, and that Taros was completely safe from attack, the diplomats were only seeking small trading contracts. In return for very small amounts of manganese ore, the Tau could offer water purification and recycling technology, as well as hydroponics equipment for growing food and luxury goods.
Interestingly, the Tau used the guise of a "trading mission" in secret to begin contact with the Government on Taros, and made assurances they had no desire to "expand into the area" and that Taros was "Safe from attack".. which obviously is a lie, since they wanted the place and only the Imperium kept them from attacking openly.

Also the tech trading helps the Tau to establish their own infrastructure on planet, to make occupation and fortifying that much easier once they move in.

This is a key part of how the Tau manage to win and hold Taros. They take and hold the infrastructure intact, as well as gaining native (auxiliary) troops and allies to help them fight. With the intact defenses, and the terrain, and the industry.. they're well prepared to fight and deny the Imperium what they must. It also shows their cleverness in this regard.

Page 14
He [Planetary Governor] knew full well that trading with aliens was strictly forbidden, but Taros was just one planet in a million, and small amounts of ore would not be missed.

..

The Imperium's quotas had not changed in generations.

..

Who would know or care if some extra manganese or vanadium ore was blasted out and sold to these Tau? Other human worlds had grown rich doing it, the alien delegats had brought proof with them and, in the long run good relations might help keep Tau expansionism at bay.
- initial tau trading with Taros was for "manganese and vanadium" ore.. something the Imperium also apparently wanted. What they use it for we don't know.

Page 14
Negotiations were completed some twenty years ago, and the Tau got their first foot in the door on TAros. The agreement started very small, no more than one shipment of manganese and vanadium a year, but gradually, as the Planetary Governor and his mineowners got away with it, the amounts being shipped increased. The tithes set by the Administrratum were still being met, but the mines began to find extra new lodes to exploit. Over the next ten years the Tau gained more and more say in the mining operations, several Earth Caste delegations visited to offer aid aind advice. The Tau paid for the ore in technology and luxury goods such as precious stones from Tash'varr and exotic fruits from Au'tall.
Witness the Faustian deal progressing, proving the effectiveness of Tau subterfuge.


Next time: The Imperium finds out and the first Imperial Response!
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Ahriman238
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Ahriman238 »

It makes sense that the Tau would take their time preparing for the next major expansion, and luring the Imperial Governors closest to them ever deeper into their web would help a lot.

I thought the Tau only had 30-ish "septs?"
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Srelex »

Ahriman238 wrote:It makes sense that the Tau would take their time preparing for the next major expansion, and luring the Imperial Governors closest to them ever deeper into their web would help a lot.

I thought the Tau only had 30-ish "septs?"
Something like that, but some sources indicate that Septs can incorporate multiple worlds--in fact, in the Deathwatch rulebook, a individual sept is mentioned has having several dozen.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Darksider »

Was IA3 made before or after the Tau got their major power-up in the (IIRC) fourth edition?

IIRC The braniacs at GW took a good look at the Tau, realized how utterly fucked they were, and increased the size of their empire from several dozen major worlds to several hundred. I believe conner described it as "strapping them to a table and injecting them with steroids."
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Captain Taumerica!

More seriously, it's not entirely implausible that during the centuries from first Imperium-Tau contact and conflict to the end of the 41st millenium, they did expand from several dozen to several hundred major worlds. That's a time scale that permits meaningful terraforming, and the Tau strike me as enthusiastic terraformers and developers of internal real estate.

Their slow FTL travel creates even greater incentives to do so, too.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by andrewgpaul »

Darksider wrote:Was IA3 made before or after the Tau got their major power-up in the (IIRC) fourth edition?
Before. The Skyray and Piranha were introduced in this book, before being remade in plastic for the new Codex.
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Connor MacLeod
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I don't think we'll get any concrete tau numbers until we see the next Codex (which probably won't be til what, 6th edition? Are we already at that stage? Jesus Christ) but they seem to have at least a hundred or so worlds from what little I recall of me covering the codexes. Part of the confusion I suspect though is how one defines a Tau World. They have worlds they themselves have mostly or totally colonized (a portion of which are also sept worlds.. sort of their 'capitols or core worlds') as well as the worlds of their auxiliaries (human, kroot, etc.) which they may or may not colonize alongside the original inhabitants. In that way it's alot like the Necron 'organization' in the new codex: you have major worlds, minor worlds, and client worlds.

The question is exactly how many client worlds there are.

(I was also planning on doing more posting and an update with this, but I'm feeling lazy. Maybe tomorrow.)

Edit: The funny thing is that when I was digging through some of the deathwatch RPG as Srelex noted you have a sept with dozens of human worlds. Scale that up and you get something on the high hundreds/low thousands. Typically I assume the Tau are roughly a sector-equivalent power (basically hundreds of inhabited systems, hundreds or maybe thousands of ships, billions or more of ready troops, albeit only a fraction of which are actualy Tau.) The Tau though are more densely settled than Imperial worlds typically, which actually is one of the key reasons they are able to employ their material-oriented manner of warfare so successfully (especially since they limit it to the tau.) Well, that and their extensive use of auxiliaries (which they don't seem shy about using as cannon fodder, if we go by the Deathwatch materials.)
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Ahriman238 »

Live and learn, I thought each sept was a single planet, that the Tau had begun with 13 and now had 30-ish.

So the Tau are actually somewhat more signifigant than I thought. Good to know.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by PainRack »

Connor MacLeod wrote:age 11
At this council Stygies VIII argued that if production was to be increased, then more refined and raw materials would need to be found. The lifeblood of any forge world is the material it consumes. For production on the scale of Stygies VIII, vast maounts of minerals and chemicals are required. Mining planets across the Imperium supplies these demands. The task of finding new materials was a big one, and the Departmento officials returned to Terra to begin it. Administratum auditors set about finding where reserves had been located and catalogued, and where planetary-audits suggested that extra productivity might be squeezed from refineries.
Forge worlds seem to have at least some potential to increase output if needed, at least in short terms (they don't run at full capacity. Which is reaosonable - you'd want safety margins, you'd want times of slow down to run maintenance and such, etc.) It is quite likely that resource availability is one of the key factors in production rates, given the need to hunt for more resources.

On the other hand, it does imply that the capacity of the Imperium's resources (EG mining) is running closer to the max. Whether this is literal threat or stockpiling due to propoganda and siege mentality, it is hard to say.
? I always assumed that quote refers to the existing allocation of resources to Stygies. The references to Taros having untapped mineral reserves suggests that there are untapped mineral reserves, what is needed is just increased production so as to tap it.

There would afterall be large amount of competing resource demands and the allocation tithes would had been set years beforehand.





Tau are a "minor but irritating" threat but cannot amass (currently, as of the 13th Black Crusade) forces to terminate them. Which again makes you wonder why they're considered a big deal in the previous quote.
The Tau does neccessitate the comitment of large forces to defend their sectors. I'm sure the Imperium would love to be able to mobilise those forces to hit something more worthwhile and etc.
Their vulnerability might make them even more irritating. Afterall, the Imps could remove this thorn in their flesh at any time, unlike say Corsair raids or the Ork hordes, but something always pop up to prevent this.

Again, the Imperium has other enemies to deal with than the Tau, much to the Tau's good fortune.
I'm not sure what "immense" is supposed to mean - something aorund the size of the Sabbat World's crusade ought to be able to handle it, if competently handled.
Wasn't the Sabbat World crusade itself a huge commitment on the part of the Imperium itself? The Jericho Reach crusade was also supposed to be a huge responsibility on the part of the Warmaster and it required billions if not trillions of troops, along with multiple space marine detachments.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Next update for IA3. We have the Tau perfidy uncovered, and the Imperium's first gesture at solving the issue. It also marks the beginning of the tactical foolishness that marks a good deal of the book on the Imperial side (again politics, ego, etc.) and will only be supplanted by events in IA8 (The inability of Raven Guard and Elysians to figure out where a Stompa/Gargant building mekboy might be located, even though they can see a giant stompa/gargant being built from orbit, and generally bumble about until they sound the alarm. It's rather embarassing when Space Wolf newbies in Ragnar's Claw have superior stealth to what are supposed to be Astartes ninjas.)


Page 15
...the Imperial Navy's Patrol Group Ravanor was conducting a routine anti-pirate sweep through the Denab system, an area of wilderness space on the edge of the DAmocles Gulf. The five-ship patrol, operating under standing orders to attack and seize suspected priate vessels or conduct harrying raids against Tau targets of opportunity, was under the command of Captain Darillian of the Dauntless light cruiser Lord Ravanor. The patrol had been out for several months with little success, and Captain Darillian was preparing to return to base and report that pirate activity in the area was minimal when the Sword class frigate VCS-6 of Scadryn squadron, positioned well ahead of the main line, reported sensor contact with three unidenfitied transport vessels.

..

For three days they maintained the stand-off pursuit, hoping the three vessels would lead them to a pirate base or a rendezvous point anda far greater prize.
..

Instead, scanner readings from his leading ship revealed the presence of a Tau waystation.
several months seems to be a typical deployment time for patrols.. This is especially interesting considering that Light Cruisers are designed for long range independent operation.

Page 15
..the frigate VCS-6 observed the three transports dock at the way station and a single Tau vessel, of the 'Emissary' class, left shortly afterwards.
Implies that the Taros system had access to warp capable freighters. Whether they owned them, borrowed them, or hired them, we dont know. (Except that they weren't officially part of the Navy, as we find out below.)

PAge 15
Meanwhile, Captain Darillian's astropathic message reached Imperial Navy High Command who were equally in the dark about these events. Inquiries about these three ships revealed nothing. Whoever these ships belonged to, they were obviously consorting with aliens. New orders were issued to PAtrol group Ravanor - destroy the Tau waystation and capture the transports. Prisoners were to be taken for further interrogation.
According to page 13 [i"]It took Dree several weeks to gather all the information he needed from Taros. By the end of his investigation he had a good idea of what had been happening here".[/i]. This indicates that the astropathic message to and from the Patrol Group and Naval command must have crossed at least hundreds (if not thousands, perhaps tens of thousands) of light years in under "several weeks" - or a week or so each way. This tends to suggest a minimum FTL astropathic speed of at least tens of thousands, ,if not hundreds of thousands, times the speed of light.



Page 16
With surprise on their side, the patrol group raced past the waystation, unleashing a full broadside at short range. Lance batteries and macro-cannons roared into the void, impacting upon the waystation with shuddering explosions. The station attmepted to rturn fire as best she could, with little effect. One transport was immediately hit and crippled as it lay at berth, the others, as predicted, attempted to disengage and flee.
..

A second convoy of transports and an escort of light warships, identified as of the Castellan class, had appeared on scanner screens.

...

With her four escorts closing in behind her, the Lord Ravanor ploughed in amongst the alien convoy, broadsides blazing from both starboard and port batteries. In return, the Tau vessels peppered her back, shields flaring and decks quaking under the impact of railguns and ion cannons. It was bitter and hard fought at close range, with both sides inflicting heavy damage during the engagement. The Sword class frigates VCS-6 and 7 were both crippled, and the Lord Ravanor was limping with engine damage and fires on several decks. But the Tau convoy was scattered, leaving one drifting transport as a wreck and both Castellans, the targets of the Lord Ravanor's heaviest guns, as burning hulks
Tau vs Imperial ships. Patrol group Ravanor consists of the light cruiser and four escorts. They are named VCS-6, 7, 8 and 9.

During the skirmish (near the Denab system's ateroid belt), two rogue (Imperial design?) transports escape, but another is captured. This suggests they jumped to warp, so must have reached the edge of the system before the battle ended.

Page 16
Crewmen from the crippled rogue transport were captured after a brief skirmish with survivors. It seemed they had no knowledge of the ship's cargo, but the ship's log recorded that their last port of call had been Taros.
Again, hinting that the Taros system had access to warp capable vessels. Perhaps these are chartist vessels, or renegade smuggler ships.

Page 17
The truth remained a mystery until the Denab Incident report was discovered by Auditor Prime Dree, during his research into the missing minerals on Taros. For Dree, Patrol Group Ravanor's discovery was evidence of treachery.

..

The three transports had been carrying a cargo of manganese, vanadium and rhenium ore, loaded at Taros and originally destined for refineries which in turn supplied STygies VIII.
- the aforementioned "rogue transports" were, under orders from the leaders of Taros, transferring their cargos to the Tau. Since this occurs in the Denab system, different from the system Taros is in, this suggests that Taros has its own warp-capable transports of some kind. (though not neccearily astropaths or navigators for them.. as we know Chartist captains are FTL capable and use neither.) Of course if they were hired or leased that might qualify as 'under orders.'

Page 17
Auditor Prime Dree presented his report to the Office of the Master of the Adeptus Munitorum on Terra, for consideration of action to be taken.

..

It would take several months for the bureacracy to process Dree's report and for anybody with real authority to eventually see it. His report was just one amongst thousands.
- it took several months for the Munitorums' bureacracy to process Dree's report and for anyone with authority to see it (or decide to take action.). he also managed to make a 50-60+ thousand LY travel between Taros and Terra in that time IIRC. Certainly it was far less than a year.

Page 17
The first and most obvious option was to contact the Officio Assasinorum and secretly dispatch one of the Imperium's most lethal weapons to Taros.
..

Taros was close to the Tau Empire, and an obvious prospect for Tau expansionist ambitions. The Imperium needed to send the aliens a strong message - that Ta interference on Taros would not be tolerated.

..

Simply assasinating Lord Aulis would not deter their ambitions.

..

A strike force would target the Planetary Governor and his supporters.

..

Once the operation was complete, the strike force would become a temporary garrison to deter any Tau counter-attacks. There was one force capable of such a mission at short notice, the Adeptus Astartes.

...

A Space Marine Chapter was quickly identified for the coup d'etat mission and a high-level delegation with the relevant intelligence information was immediately dispatched to the Chapter-Monastery of the Avenging Sons, along with a well worded request signed by the Master of the Administratum's office asking the Chapter Master for his assistance.
They consider various options to re-take Taros. The Space Marines are considered and employed. The implication is that they may be fairly close by to Terra, but we really have no way of knowing since the Avenging Sons homeworld has yet to be identified. We do know from Victories of the Space Marines that the Avenging sons were fighting on a planet some 6000 or so LY from the Eye of Terror, which does tend to suggest they are either in Segmentum Solar or Obscurus, if their homeworld is anywhere nearby.


Page 18
Taros system: 4 planets, one inhabitable (Taros 2)

Gravity .96G, 2 moons.

Equatorial distance of T2 - 16,000 miles. Population 12 million approx (human and abhuman.) Rotational speed, 1,200 MPH.

Climate classification: Extreme - Hyper Arid.


"Mean average temperature in the coastal sea region is 35C (95F) rising to over 50C (122F) in deep deserts.
..
Shifting sands and bare rock cover 95% of the planet's surface.
..

Low mountainous highlands covering 40% of the surface
General details of Taros. Overall, about half or a third of the planet is probably sand.) This is terrain that favours the Tau over the humans, I should note.


PAge 18 - air streams on taros can reach speeds up to 400 mph, and can contribute to the formation of the "Sand Devil" hurricanes that can be devastating to mining facilities.

Page 18
These small, land bound seas are Taros' only source of surface water, and were probably artificially created as part of the planet's terraforming during the Dark Age of Technology.

... [Later]

In the Dark AGe of Technology, after discovery of its mineral wealth, it was terraformed by the introduction of water and genetically engineered flora to produce enough oxygen.
Taros was terraformed in some way during the DAoT.

Page 18

Genetically engineered flora has been imported and survives in the semi-aird zones, as scrub and cactus-like plants. The sea contain toxic algi, which genrates most of the planet's oxygen.
More on the planet. Its unknown whether the flora originates with the DAoT or is more recent contributions, although the tense suggests a more recent time (and thus genetic engineering taken on wildlife or domestic animals.)

Page 18
Almost 12 million souls inhabit Taros, mostly in or around Taros City (tarokeen) and the semi-arid regions surrounding the small seas. Taros city is situated in the Aestus region, where several small land-bound seas are Taros' only surface water. The water is highly alkaline, but hydro-proceessing plants situated on the shores turn it into drinkable water. This process is aided by the scattered water-farms, which gather moisture from the air. Water farmers sell their produce to the Planetary Governor, via exclusive contract.s The Governor and his officials control all water on Taros, and therefore all life.

Tarokeen is the single largest urban area with the planet's only spaceport facility.
Population and setup of Taros. Basically you have a single key target to take. Water offers a key resource and means of control. This also means that the single location is also the most heavily defended one because it's the only thing you have to protect.

Page 18
Most workers are miners, working long tours at the strip mines and quarries out in the desert. Other major industries are water-processing and hydro-farming. Hydroponics workers grow food in atmospheric controlled hydroponic plants. Ore transportation is another large industry, moving raw ore from the desert mines to collection points in the city before transportation off-world. Short distance [ore] transportation uses manpower (literally labourers carrying a sack each) or tractors towing trains of ore carts. Long distance transportation uses large cargo aircraft.
Taros industries. As I said before, nothing really suggests this place is exactly major by Imperial standards, when you consider that the Administratum is perfectly happy stripping planets bare of resources in mere centuries or millenia if they can get away with it.

PAge 18
In M38, as part of the then Planetary Governor's drive to imrpove productivity he requested an order to import off-world labour in the form of Ogryn colonies of Jopall. Several thousand of the big abhumans were shipped en-masse to Taros to work in the mines in the most inhospitable desert areas. Very strong and Hardy, the Ogryns are well adapted to the physical work of loading, unloading and hauling ore carts. On Taros, Ogryns are still used by many mines as part of the workforce. The last census carried out by the Administratum, some 400 years ago, estimated a population of 10,000 Ogryn scattered across the planet.
- there is an estimated 10,000 Ogryn (imported from colonies on the planet Jopall centuries ago) to work in the mines, esp in the most inhospitable regions. I'd think they'd want more for mining, of course they only have estimates on the population. Of course it amounts to largely an experiment so... big shock if it doesn't get expanded.

Page 18
A high level of technology is maintained, with many tasks automated. Ministorum Galaxia missionaries report little in the way of genetic mutation.
Automation on Taros. Note that this is considered a minor world, although what kinds of 'automation' are up for debate, considering they still use a great deal of manual labor to mine and haul the extracted resources.

Page 18-19
[Principle exports]
Mineral ores for ferro alloys, lead, vanadium, rhenium, manganese.

...

Vanadium - ... used in steel alloys to give extra hardness and as a catalyst in other alloys.

Rhenium - A dense, silvery-white metlalic element with a high melting point.
... Used in alloy with tungsten in high-temperature thermocouples.

Manganese.. Used in some steels (Manganese steels) and other ferromagnetic alloys. MAnganese steel is a very hard steel containing 11-14% manganese to produce hard wearing tools such as rock crushers, heavy pistons and gun barrels with high tensile properties.

Lead... highly malleable, it is used in alloys for accumulators, cable sheathing and radiation shielding.

Cobalt... is a ferromagnetic metal... used in steel alloys to resist corrosion.
Uses of Minerals. What they are used in exactly and where isn't stated, but ther'es nothing wrong with it either.


Page 19 -
Principle imports: foodstuffs and water.
..

Grown under cover in large, atmospheric contorlled hydroponic plants. MAny buildings have their own hydroponic plants, but the largest are situated around Tarokeen and in the coastal regions. This provides the population with 80% of their food supply, the other 20% being imported from surrounding worlds. Principle crops are variants of the millet and sorghum plants, members of the grass family, providing highly nutritious grain. Groundnuts, related to the soya bean are a growing source of protein and provide many varied foodstuffs. Some exotic 'off-world' fruits are grown. All crops have evolved to survive on a minimal water supply, which is heavily recycled by the hydroponic plants to prevent wastage. Others sources of vitamins and protein come from algi and marine micro-organisms, harvested from the seas and chemically processed to make an edible gruel, called "Kreml" by the natives. This is the staple diet of the miners and workers. Other foodstuffs, meats, dairy products and luxury items must be imported, and are the preserve of the top of the social order, officials, mine owners, etc.
Means of sustenance on Taros.

Page 19
Taros city (tarokeen) has a population of approximately four million.

..

The surrounding hinterland... has the highest density of hydro-farms and water processing plants and mines, but there are very few other large settlements. Those that do exist are towns built up around the largest strip mining and quarrying operations.

..

The hinterland of Tarokeen and the populated area around the seas is called 'the Aestus', and is home to approximately 6 million of Taros' population. Living on scattered hydro-farms and temporary mining settlements around the mining facilities...
Population distribution. 1/3 of the population is in the main city.


Page 19
The draw of the ore deposits made the planet a viable prospect for terraforming. Back in the Dark AGe of Technology, Mankind had the technology and knoweldge to alter planetary atmoshperes and ecosystems to create a place capable of habitation by humans.

...

Aided by long forgotten advanced science and technology they set about terraforming the lifeless desert world into something human-kind could survive on. It did not happen over-night. In fact it may well have taken over 5,000 years of work, but water was introduced to the planet's surface in the form of seas. Specially genetically engineered plants and algae also contributed to the ecosystem, creating oxygen. Careful management and nutruing slowly changed the atmosphere. How this was done is a mystery, but some life now exists on TAros.
More on the DAoT terraforming.

Page 19
The regressed (human) colonists were exterminated and new colonists moved in...

..
Over the past ten thousand years of the Imperiums rule Taros' population has steadily grown to its current level of approximately 12 million souls.
Imperial occupation of Taros.

Page 19
Departmento Munitorum records show that in the 10,000 year history of the Imperium (and it should be borne in mind that records are incomplete) Taros has raised only eight regiments.

..

The Taronian 1st was annihilated during the 3rd Black Crusade. The Taronian 2nd and 3rd served as part of the St Saen Crusade, and were evntually disbanded, with survivors being folded into another Imperial guard regiment. The fate of the Taronian 4th and 5th are unknown, records do not tell. The Taronian 6th was hevily engaged against Ork during Waaagh! Badun, and later was disbanded, with the surviving manpower being turned over to the 15th Cadian regiment as replacements. The 7th regiment was lost as part of Rogue Trader Foulway Tor's third expedition into the Eastern Fringes. The 8th regiment is currently active as part of the garrison force of Hellion Iv.
IG Tithings from Taros. Again an indication the place is not particularily important in the scale of things.

PAge 22 -
It shall fall to second company and Captain Armaros to do the Chapter's duty.

..

The Master of the Fleet shall ready the strike cruiser Proxima Justus and by sundown on the second day you shall be embarked.

...

For twenty-four hours the chapter-monastery was a bustle of activity as the second company, assisted by a squad of the veteran first company and scouts of the tenth, musterd its full strength.

Captain Amaros and his men embarked onto the Chapter strike cruiser Proxima Justus and accompanies by a single escort vessel made best speed out of the system before engaging warp engines.
Within a day of receiving the request the 2nd comapny of the Avenging Sons dispatched itself towards Taros.



Page 22
There would be time enough on the month-long journey for briefing and training.
A month to travel. We dont know the exact distance not knowing the origin of the Avenging Sons homeowrld, but it presumably was out sector - at least several hundred LY away, but also within Astronomican range. As noted before, circumstantial evidence suggests that the homeworld is relatively close to Terra and the Eye of Terror, and at least on the far end of or outside of Segmentum Ultima, but this isn't certain.

Thus, it could be anywhere from thousands of times c to hundreds of thousands times c, and even then it assumes a straight line course (which is lamost never the case). If we assumed a 40-50K LY distance, we'd be talking aroudn half a million c (give or take 20%)


Page 23
During the second phase of the operation Armaros would also need the aid of the Proxima Justus in low orbit, utilizing its powerful surveillance and sensor equipment, and should resistance reqire it, the stirke cruiser's weapons for orbital bombardment. As a show of force, the willingness to flatten Tarokeen would send a strong message, as well as help subdue the local population.
..

It was a brutal tactic, but Captain Armaros was a Space Marine, with a lifetime of indoctrination and hypo-suggestion that meant he cared not one bit. His duty to the Emperor was all that mattered. To his mind, there were no innocents on Taros anymore.
The mission/operation phase in question is to locate the Governor should he not be or flee the palace, and they will employ anything up to (or exceeding) destroying the city, brutal as it is.

This creates some interesting quandaries later. If the Space Marines had the option to bomb the city now, why wasn't this considered later? The tactics now really tend to reflect poorly on the second attempt later, although that is far frm the only problem in the entire campaign.


Page 23
Once his force had located the governor within the palace, Captain Armaros would use his teleport homer to summon the waiting Terminators. Arriving via Teleporter, the Terminators would appear at the location and use their massive close range firepower to eliminate the target.
But to use the Terminators, they apparently needed to get close enough to deploy the homer.

Page 23
Avenging Sons, Taros intervention force

Capt Armaros, 2nd company, 1x Apothecary, 1st company x5 Terminators.

Fleet 1x Strike Cruiser Proxima Justus, 5x Thunderhawk, 3x Thunderhawk transporter, 24x Drop pods.

2nd company: 1x Chaplain, x60 Tactical marines, 20x Assault marines, 20x Devastators, x10 Rhinos, x2 Dreadnoughts

Armoury: x2 Land Raider, x2 Preadator destructor, x1 Predator annihilator, x2 Razorback (heavy bolters), x3 Whirlwind
Breakdown of Avenging sons assault force.

Page 24
Captain Amaros plan had three things to its advantage, even though he would be attacking into the heart of enemy territory with only 120 battle brothers, no heavy support or armoured vehicles and no preparatory bombardment to soften up the target.
..

Secondly, the defenders were only local planetary defence forces, low quality troops with little discipline and, by Space Marine standards, poorly equipped. Their morale would also be poor...
The 'advantages' of the Space Marine deployment. This does note a certain overconfidence (not without reason) of the Astartes, and may simply reflect their lack of experience at facing the Tau.
Earlier it was noted they would drop pod assault in, hence why no vehicles or pre-bombardment. Of course other chapters (EG the Ultramarines, like in ASsault on Black REach) don't always obey by those rules..

PAge 24
Most Imperial planets have some form of system defence, and Taros was no different. It could call upon its network of surface to orbit missiles and a single squadron of three system defence monitors. It was a force incapable of matching a heavily armed and armoured Space Marine strike cruiser, and although the Monitors were given orders to engage the approaching Space Marines, all three ship crews refused the order and mutinied rather than face almost certain destruction.
..

Once in orbit, the only threat to the Proxima Justus would be the missile silos. Thse would take some time to target, prepare and launch. Upon arrival in orbit, the Avenging Sons would already be ready to launch drop pods. After launching and planetfall the strike cruiser and her escort would withdraw to stand off Taros at a safer distance whilst the ground assault was completed.

..

The Proxima Justus swept into position in low orbit..
- Taros was armed with "surface to orbit missiles" and a squadron of 3 system defence monitors. Incidentally the strike cruiser still outgunned them (meaning the defence monitors have less than 1/3 the firepower of the strike cruiser. Whether this means weak monitors or powerful strike cruiser, it's hard to say.) This might be considered a low end estimat eon 'space defenses' for a minor Imperial world.




Page 26
Each [Terminator] was warmed with a storm bolter and powerfist, except for one man carrying the assault cannon and Veteran Sergeant Foras with the squad chainfist, a power weapon capable of cutting thruogh just about any material.
- chainfist - described as a power weapon capable of cutting through just about any material (as if that wasn't a trait applied to power weaponry already.) Chainfists are gneerally not combat weapons, but used as breaching tools.


Page 26
In a blinding flash of white light the Terminator squad vanished, briefly being cast across the warp before reappearing amidst crackling lightning in the council chamber far below.
More warp-based Teleporters.

Page 26
Captain Armaros ordered Apothecary Actium to cross check DNA samples from the party with the Order Famulous records of the Hous Aulis genetic codes.
Rather sneaky of the Order Famulous, but unsurprising. In the first Shira Calpurnia novel they also launch a reovlution to topple a rebellious noble house, and the FFG material ascribe to them similar (and other) roles, including selective breeding programs and the like.

Page 26
An entire Hunter Cadre was bearing down on the Space Marines, moving at speed to reinforce the Governor's Palace.
Tau response to the Astartes Assault. SURPRISE! The Avenging Sons rather obviously discounted the tau threat or the possibility of reinforcement. Whether this is justfied or not is entirely up for debate, although if the Avenging sons came from far on the other side of the galaxy, it would not be surprising that they wouldn't know what to expect from the tau. On the other hand, being the military super-badasses they're supposed to be, you'd think they'd anticipate this sort of thing as facing new and unknown threats is not a new situation for any Chapter.

PAge 26
The smoky contrail of the squad's missile launcher screamed up the street, impacting on the front of the Hammerhead in a bright explosion which buckled and scorched the armour but did nt stop the approaching grav-tank. It opened fire in return, punching through the buildings with its long railgun, sending masonry crashing to the street.
Krak missile fails to penetrate a hammerhead's armor.

Page 27
Sergeant Andura of third Tactical squad was amongst the dead, his broken body lying half buried under fallen masonry after a railgun round impacted next to him.
If we knew how much mass and something about the wall this might be calcable. Interesting nonetheless.

Page 27
The Crisis battlesuits led the final assault, leaping down the street on jetpacks to rake the buildings with flamer and fusion fire.
Using meltas and flamers close in - flamers might not do much but the meltaguns are certainly a threat.

Page 27
Ten out of the twenty brothers involved in the fighting at position three had been killed in the firefightl; six more were wounded. These were heavy losses for Einem's force.
This would imply at least some of the Avenging sons forces took fifty percent casaulties, and this was considered "heavy losses" by Astartes standards.

Page 27
Already battle scarred from the Space Marine attack, the once elegant buildings were rapidly becoming ragged ruins Masony and support beams collapsed under the repeated impacts.
Rocket attack from Barracudas.


Page 27
Tau ground forces were infiltrating through the buildings, and rail rifle armed marksmen had moved into position at any high points overlooking the palace courtyards.
- Tau using "rail rifle armed marksmen" These are the closest the tau get to snipers, although by FFG stuff the rail rifle has the same range as a pulse rifle.

Page 28
Ammunition, especially frag and krak grenades, were running low, but he had some eighty one men still battel worthy, including all the Terminators and both Dreadnoughts.
81 out of 120, nearly 33% casualties for that first engagement. That's alot by Astartes standards, but considering that they were basically ambushed (and no doubt the Tau expected to totally wipe them out) that is rather light. On the other hand, it also just shows that the only Imperial forces that ever outperform the tau in an IA book are Space Marines.

Page 28
For a second night they [Space Marines] did not need to sleep like Imperial Guardsmen, their power armour continued to supply them with the nutrition and liquid they needed to keep fighting at peak efficient. Their endurance and superior powers of recovery meant that after a day and night they were still as ready for the fight as the moment they landed. Many bore wounds that would have killed mere men, but still fought on regarldess.
Self-supporting nature of power armored Space Marines. A full day without rest and even injury does not faze them. Of course they're also sticking around to fight despite being in what is essentially unfavourable conditions. It would have made more sense to extract themselves, withdraw, and then come back with the second force to exact revenge. But that would be the smart thing, and we can't have the Imperium doing that this time around.


Page 28
With jet engines whirring, the Tau Hammerheads, Devilfish and battlesuits slowly moved through the streets, drone-controlled burst cannons covering the buildings as they manoeuvred into position to bombard the Governor's palace. It seemed that if the Tau coudl not drive the Space Marines out, they would pound them with destructive fire.

..

With their distinctive whip-crack sound, railgun rounds slammed into buildings. Burst cannon pulses ricocheted off walls and rubble. A Phalanx of heavy fire hammered the palace, round after round, relentless and merciless. The Tau were blasting the Space Marines out from a distance, building after building was targete.d Roofs collapsed, walls cracked, rounds punched through masonry to explode within. The noise was deafening, as the buildings of the Governor's palace were systematically destroyed.
Tau tactics seen here and elsewhere in the book - they use their Devilfish to move troops around until they need deploy. Effective at keeping them safe from shrapnel and small arms, but any heavy/special/anti tank weapon that gets through would kill them all in one place. Hence the subsequent importance of suppressive fire (to keep the Devatators pinned down.) Tau doctrine is very heavy on firepower, albeit of a (mainly) direct-fire nature.

Page 29
Opposite the main gate two Hammerheads slowly manoeuvred through the streets, constantly firing on the move. The impact of round after round eventually caused the gatehouse to collapse. The Devastator squads within returned fire with their missile launcers and lascannons, but the weight of fire kept them pinned down.

..

The bombardment lasted all morning and well inot the afternoon.
Again, Tau favor overwhleming firepower, for all the good it does them against Space Marines.

Page 29
As the squadron [Thunderhawks] vectored in on Tarokeen, descending rapidly, weapons primed, the Barracudas climbed to intercept. The Thunderhawks dove through the fighter screen, heavy bolters blazing as the Barracudas opened fire with burst cannons. Despite the repeated impact of pulse rounds the formation did not waver.

..

The Barracudas fire was ineffective.

..

The flight of Thunderhawks roared down onto the city, strafing with battle cannons, turbolasers and heavy bolters before releasing their bombs. The guided bombs ripped into the palace surroundings. Explosions rippled through the buldings, tearing great holes in roofs and walls, flames and shrapnel engulfing whole blocks. Buildings across the city were rocked by the concussion of the bombing. Now the destruction was radiating outwards from the palace.
Thunderhawk air strike on the Tau. The bombing managed to make the tau withdraw. It's also rather obvious that Thunderhawks are vastly more heavily armed and armoured compared to the barracuda it's not even funny. Again these are sorts of things that are useful to know and would have proven useful later on had the Space Marines been a bigger part of the latter efforts to take Taros.

Page 29
The lead Hammerhead was immediately hit by lascannon fire and exploded in a blossoming orange fireball. Fire from the second grav-tank killed the lascnanon gunner in return. A krak missile destroyed a Broadside battlesuit but, after the brief firefight, only three remaining Devastator squad members withdrew.
Lascannon manages to destroy a hammerhead where a krak missile couldn't, although a Krak missile managed to take out a Battlesuit. As we know from Kill Team lascannon are such overkill against battlesuits it's not even funny.


PAge 30
Wading through fire and smoke, the [Terminator] veterans met the Crisis battlesuits in a head on exchange of fire. Both sides suffered heavy losses. The Space Marines fought for every inch, but the Tau's heavier weapons could not be matched. Three of the veteran Terminators died in the fighting, as did four battlesuits. Brothers Hakael and Caim joined the battle, destroying the second Hammerhead with their heavy weapons, before Brother Caim sustained a hit which tore off his left leg, toppling the Dreadnought to the ground and leaving it stranded and a sitting duck for following shots.
- Terminator squad vs Crisis battlesuits. Both sides suffered heavy losses, but the Tau had the advantage of heavy weapons. Battlesuits manage to take down a Dreadnought, although we dont know how many Battlesuits initially engaged (and they still had the heavy vehicles after all.)

What hit the Dreandought isn't specified either.

Page 30
It galled him, but resistance here was now greater than his company could match. He had no idea of the enemy's total strength. He knew that his men might hold out for days only to eventually be overwhelmed by their numbers, and for what gain?

...

The force had been reduced to approximately forty battle-worthy brothers and one dreadnought, merely enough men to need only two Thunderhawk gunships for extraction. The other gunships would fly as cover to those required to make the landings.

..

Chaplain Baraqel said prayers for the dead, standing over the lifeless form of Brother Caim. Once a proud war-machine and hero of the Chapter, now nothing more than a smoking wreck of twisted metal and wires.

..

In all the evacuation operation should take no more than ten minutes not enough time fro the Tau to react in force.
Over 65% casualties at this point, including a Dreadnought. 10 minutes to evacuate via gunship. Again given that the thunderhawks virtually laughed off the Tau's air forces, why did they wait so long to extract from an obviously unfavourable situation? It's not like Space Marines can literally fight a whole fucking planet from a defensive position, and even they are rarely arrogant enough to think otherwise.

Page 30
Every world under the rule of the Imperium has its own Adeptus Arbites Precinct houses or Fortified Courthouse.

..

Prior to the Avenging sons' attack, the Magister commanding the Adeptus Arbites precinct on Tarokeen received a secure astro-telepathic communication warning him of events about t unfold. It also instructed his precinct to carry out a simultaneous operation toa rrest the wealthiest mine owners.
Arbites forces were utilized on Taros, but they like the other Imperial forces, utterly failed and were wiped out. This is yet another of those little factors that should play a role but never does (It's not like Arbites don't have subsector/sector level forces and starships to provide aid) but their absence is perhaps more forgivable than all the rest of the shit in this book.


Page 30
Away from the city, in the surrounding deserts, fearsome Arbites arrest units, clad in their black carapace armour and armed with shotguns, riot mauls and suppression shields, moved ino to surround and arrest the mineowners. Upon arrival at the mines the Arbites found themselves confronted by gangs of angry mine workers.

..

At each mine, the attemped arrest became a pitched battle gainst the curdely armed miners.

..

Most of the battle scarred arrest units did not return to the Precinct house in Tarokeen until after the Space Marines had evacuated the Planet, leaving Magister Skaltka's men trapped...

..

The Tarokeen Precinct House was attacked and destroyed three days after the Avenging Sons evacuation. There were no known survivors.
Again arbites were wiped out.

Page 31
The Tau inflicted serious damage on the Avenging sons in two days of intense combat. The damage inflicted on the aliens was unknown, but must also have been significant. There had been many confirmed kills and the battlefield was littered with wrecks of Tau grav-tanks and battlesuits.

..

Events on Taros, the failure of the Intervention Force, and the confirmed report of strong Tau forces fighting in the defence of the Planetary Governor, forced a change in attitude by officials of the Administratum towards the Taros problem. News of defeat was bad enough, but it seemed the Tau had already staked a claim to one of the Emperor's worlds. What had been a border skirmish was now a serious threat. Events aorund the Eye of Terror might be demanding many of the Imperium's resources, but Taros would not be ignored.

Taros was officially declared Ex Imperius Rebellis, a system in rebellion...
..
..his[the Governor's] actions now made him not just a criminal but a traitor. The Tau were already on Taros in force and they must be ejected. The Master of the Adminsitratum signed a document stating just this, as well as listing the Planetary Governor's crimes (over 100 in all, mostly punishable by death.)
...

Next time, the attack would not be a surgical strike by a single strike force of Space Marines. It would require the involvement of all those fighting arms of the Imperium willing to commit forces to repel alien aggression.
Aftermath of the first conflict between Imperium and Tau over Taros. The confrontation is more 'serious' only in context that the Tau are not showing aggressive interest in Taros (trading with its Governor, which is 'illegal'), but are actually on planet, in collusion. In other words, invasion and rebellion, which means a more significant armed response is demanded (despite all the major commitments the Imperium faces both against the Tyranids, against the Orks, and against Chaos.)

This new position seems rather silly, though. It's not exactly unheard of for the Imperium to abandon a planet to aggressors (alien, chaos, or otherwise) because they are not in a position to effectively fight back - they've sacrficed/abandoned far more (hundreds of worlds, whole sectors) in the past. And abandoning it in the short term to the tau is probably better than letting the Tyranids or Orks have it (at least ther'es a good chance the planet si still there and productive, for one thing.) Annoying as it is, it might have made more sense just to write the planet off until the situation is less strained and they can amas the forces to actually take it and punish the tau. Unfortunately, arrogance (on the Adminstratum's part) as well as general politics (esp on the AdMech side) seem to be driving this conflict by now, and will continue to plague and otherwise hamper it, which leads to the inevitable failure and wasting of resources to come.

Page 36
Targeter scan of a Tau hammerhead
The picture attached to the image is a green-screen with a gunsight overlaid on the screen (IE a targeter) which may suggest computerized targeting (or target assistance) of some kind. What vehicle this is, we don't know.



Page 36
The Adeptus Administratum decision that the recapture of the Taros system was instrumental to the continued effective operations of Stygies VIII forge world and, to a lesser extent, other dependant forge worlds, meant it was now the duty of all servants loyal to the Emperor to help bring these misguided subjects back under Imperium's rule and protection.
Truth be told, I can't see Taros having been ALL that vital. I mean yes, if the Adminstratum wants its increased output to succeed with STygies VIII it needs Taros, but the loss of the planet is not exactly going to hamper it. Even assuming there is just one such mining world (And no other sources, like orbital or asteroid mining or anything else) per Forge World, thats still thousands of mining worlds (at LEAST), and the loss of Taros alters that output by maybe .0005% or so. Even if that's off by an order of magnitude or two, its still a minor loss overall. Even more hilarious we have any number of examples (CF Mortal Fuel short story form planetkill) of the Imperium stripping whole planets bare for their resources, so the idea that Taros is somehow a vital cog in the operations of a forge world is ludicrous.

Again it seems more like politics and pride are driving this war, and those are things guaranteed to make it fail. Not that the AdMech or Administratum will be the ones to suffer.

Next installment: The lengthy planning process for the invasion force.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Black Admiral »

Adding a few comments of my own;
Connor MacLeod wrote:IA8 (The inability of Raven Guard and Elysians to figure out where a Stompa/Gargant building mekboy might be located, even though they can see a giant stompa/gargant being built from orbit, and generally bumble about until they sound the alarm. It's rather embarassing when Space Wolf newbies in Ragnar's Claw have superior stealth to what are supposed to be Astartes ninjas.)
Don't forget unnecessary division of forces, no communication channels between the Elysians and Raven Guard, and Korvydae having his head jammed so far up his own arse that lump in his throat's his nose. :P
Page 23
Avenging Sons, Taros intervention force

Capt Armaros, 2nd company, 1x Apothecary, 1st company x5 Terminators.

Fleet 1x Strike Cruiser Proxima Justus, 5x Thunderhawk, 3x Thunderhawk transporter, 24x Drop pods.

2nd company: 1x Chaplain, x60 Tactical marines, 20x Assault marines, 20x Devastators, x10 Rhinos, x2 Dreadnoughts

Armoury: x2 Land Raider, x2 Preadator destructor, x1 Predator annihilator, x2 Razorback (heavy bolters), x3 Whirlwind
Breakdown of Avenging sons assault force.
Should noted that this setup, specifically the number of Thunderhawk Transporters, imposes some significant limits on the Avenging Sons' options. Basically, it'd take them on the order of three hours to deploy or extract their vehicles, and that is assuming 100% readiness & no turn-around time for the Transporters, not to mention none of them getting shot down or damaged badly enough to be rendered inoperable. Having a major failure point like that isn't good for an operation which relies on speed and shock to get the job done.
Page 24
Captain Amaros plan had three things to its advantage, even though he would be attacking into the heart of enemy territory with only 120 battle brothers, no heavy support or armoured vehicles and no preparatory bombardment to soften up the target.
..

Secondly, the defenders were only local planetary defence forces, low quality troops with little discipline and, by Space Marine standards, poorly equipped. Their morale would also be poor...
The 'advantages' of the Space Marine deployment. This does note a certain overconfidence (not without reason) of the Astartes, and may simply reflect their lack of experience at facing the Tau.
Earlier it was noted they would drop pod assault in, hence why no vehicles or pre-bombardment. Of course other chapters (EG the Ultramarines, like in ASsault on Black REach) don't always obey by those rules..
No preliminary sensor sweeps, either, which leads to;
Page 26
An entire Hunter Cadre was bearing down on the Space Marines, moving at speed to reinforce the Governor's Palace.
Tau response to the Astartes Assault. SURPRISE! The Avenging Sons rather obviously discounted the tau threat or the possibility of reinforcement. Whether this is justfied or not is entirely up for debate, although if the Avenging sons came from far on the other side of the galaxy, it would not be surprising that they wouldn't know what to expect from the tau. On the other hand, being the military super-badasses they're supposed to be, you'd think they'd anticipate this sort of thing as facing new and unknown threats is not a new situation for any Chapter.
Hell, you'd think they'd have a contingency plan for that, since it was considered a possibility (also, why wasn't the Proxima Justus keeping up an overhead sensor watch, so that they'd have some warning before seeing & hearing the first Manta in person).

Page 29
As the squadron [Thunderhawks] vectored in on Tarokeen, descending rapidly, weapons primed, the Barracudas climbed to intercept. The Thunderhawks dove through the fighter screen, heavy bolters blazing as the Barracudas opened fire with burst cannons. Despite the repeated impact of pulse rounds the formation did not waver.

..

The Barracudas fire was ineffective.

..

The flight of Thunderhawks roared down onto the city, strafing with battle cannons, turbolasers and heavy bolters before releasing their bombs. The guided bombs ripped into the palace surroundings. Explosions rippled through the buldings, tearing great holes in roofs and walls, flames and shrapnel engulfing whole blocks. Buildings across the city were rocked by the concussion of the bombing. Now the destruction was radiating outwards from the palace.
Thunderhawk air strike on the Tau. The bombing managed to make the tau withdraw. It's also rather obvious that Thunderhawks are vastly more heavily armed and armoured compared to the barracuda it's not even funny. Again these are sorts of things that are useful to know and would have proven useful later on had the Space Marines been a bigger part of the latter efforts to take Taros.
One would think, considering how completely tits-up the original plan's gone at this point, Amaros would have used the time bought by the air strike to clear the fuck out while he still had a company to extract, rather than waiting until he's lost more than half of it including a Dreadnought and most of his Terminators. Even Captain Sicarius - who is at best describable as arrogant to a reckless degree - is willing to break off and rethink things if his plan's obviously not working (ref. Fall of Damnos).
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by lPeregrine »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Again given that the thunderhawks virtually laughed off the Tau's air forces, why did they wait so long to extract from an obviously unfavourable situation
Note one key point about the description of that first attack: the Barracudas used their burst cannons, not their much more powerful ion cannons (the Barracuda's primary AA weapon). The most likely explanation is that the Thunderhawks had surprise on their side* and the Barracudas were out of position and only able to engage with their turret-mounted light weapons, not their fixed-mount heavy weapons. By the time they could maneuver into a good firing position, the Thunderhawks were already flying away at full speed and out of range.

Now consider a situation where the Thunderhawks have to come in slow and hover to load troops. They'd be incredibly vulnerable to fire from the heavy weapons on the Barracudas, and there's at least one Manta in the area with firepower capable of destroying a titan. It's not entirely unreasonable to think that the space marine commander would be willing to risk his evacuation ships (and only way off the planet) for a single high-speed bombing run that would allow little time for the defenders to react, but would insist on waiting for the right time before taking a much larger risk. And that's exactly what he does: hold until a break in the fighting, and then call in the Thunderhawks before the Tau resume their offensive.


*Once again the absurdly short detection ranges in 40k appear.
surface to orbit missiles
At least the Imperium gets the benefit of poor tactics here. There's just no way to make sense of the fact that the defenders on Taros have missiles capable of threatening a strike cruiser (to the point that the strike cruiser has to withdraw to a safe distance), enough warning of the strike cruiser's approach to give orders to the monitor squadron and have them mutiny, and don't even attempt to fire them. Even if you assume that "time to target, prepare and launch" takes several hours, they should have been ready by the time the strike cruiser returned two more times to launch and recover Thunderhawks. I'd say that failure to use those weapons is an act of stupidity at least as bad as anything the Imperium does in the book.

(Of course out of universe we know that the missiles are really just a plot device to prevent the battle from ending immediately with an orbital bombardment, and there's no way GW would allow a mere PDF unit to massacre an entire company of space marines in one shot. It's still annoying.)
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Ion cannons may or may not be a threat to Thunderhawks. They're supposed to be really resistant to heat/hermal weaponry, and they carry at least some measure of anti-titan firepower themselves (the turbolaser turret on top if nothing else.) And they generally outmass most aerospace fighters by a hell of alot (they're more on the magnitude of space fighters, which are bigger, more heavily armoured, and generally more heavily armed.) In sufficient numbers or with sufficient time they might bring down a thunderhawk, but the Barracuda is generally an aerospace fighter.

On the other hand there are cases (like in Sons of Dorn) where shoulder fired missiles have downed Thunderhawks, but we never quite know the payload of them (or the warhead type) either.


As far as the missiles.. they could make landings more dangerous (ships are supposed to be rare after all), but the main problem is the anti-air defenses I suspect shooting down shuttles and such. The only way to take out those defenses is bombardment, and I don't think the AdMech or Administratum wanted the capital pulverized. Maybe the Space Marines would do it, if they bothered to participate in the battle (as the Avenging sons considered) but I doubt the Navy would cross either faction just for the sake of effectiveness. Politics can do alot to fuck things up in the Imperium.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Merry X-mas. I'm doing the opposite of what I usually do and posting a TOO SUDDEN update. Mainly because I want to and because its the holidays. Don't ask me why I've gotten very arbitrary about this shit.

So this update in the ongoing Taros saga involves the lengthy and generally retarded preparations for the war. Witness how one does not go about intelligently planning the war.. forming the solid foundation of utter shit which will become the Imperial response to tau aggression. This isn't the tau's fault its the writers really. But its canon so... prepare to watch the IG get fucked royally.


Page 36
Gustavus' first task was to appoint his own Command staff and prepare for the invasion. He was given two major questions to answer. When could he be ready to invade Taros, and then, where should that attack fall? His instructions made the matter clear: The invasion should come as soon as possible. By Adeptus Administratum standards this could mean anytime in the next five years. Gustavus intended to begin within a standard Terran year.
Timeframe for the campaing set. Gustavus intended ot execute his plans 5x faster than supposedly normal (at least by Adminsitratum stnadards, and for a conflict of this importance. Which is to say, not very.) I'm not sure if the five year timeframe is a legitimate one for logistics or not, or if it is something played up for political or personal reasons (It can be done faster, but they deliberately drag their feet, or if it factors in political wrangling and such.) If it is legit, it might explain why Taros was such a clusterfuck, because they clearly didn't take the time to prepare.

Page 36
Appointing his staff was no simple matter. The upper echelons of the Imperium's military hierarchy is rife with politics, intriguing, favours owed, debts to repay and self-interest. Gustavus had not risen this high without making a few enemies, or without calling on a few favours that he was now in a position to repay.

Selecting his command staff took several weeks of hard work and hard negotiations.
Here we see the human factors at work sabotaging the Taros campaign. Politics is pretty much an inevitable thing in the Imperium, but it can have delterious effects (like in real life) on the outcome of more practical occupations (military or nonmilitary.) Indeed it seems like even the most simplest of tasks, much less waging war, involve politicking, dealmaking, and the like. And like most things it is good and bad. In this case it's mostly bad.

Page 36 -
The first position to be filled was not of Gustavus' own choosing. Commissar-General Mordred Van Horcic would be Gustavus' shadow and right-hand man for the duration of the campaign. The high-ranking commissar was tasked with making sure all the officers of Gustavus' force did their duty, or face the consequences!
We see very little of him for much of the book. Despite being a commissar he doesn't really come off as bad, or good.. he's just... a commissar. He takes command once things have really gotten fucked up but by then it was too late.


Page 36
Whether by choice or coercion, over the subsequent weeks Gustavus made the following appointments. Not all were men he liked or even trusted, many were decisions forced upon him by other political factors. It was Gustavus' job to bring all these factions together and make them work together towards ultimate victory.
This line becomes important to speculation later, as to how and why Taros failed. Keep it in mind.
For the immediate point it creats some obvious flaws - these are not people you like or trust, so it makes coordination and cooperation difficult. As an obstacle it can be overcome (see Carnhide in Tactica Imperialis, who was given a politiically dififcult, uncoordinated force and still managed to pull off vicotry) but I'm not sure he or anyone else could have done it here.


Page 37
In all, the High Command staff for the invasion, including all the sub-departments and functionaries, would number approximately three thousand souls.
Alot of people in other words. Weeks of effort and thousands of people, just for picking the people who will be planning the invasion to be carried out. This is not promising, but it sure gives the tau plenty of time to prepare a defense.

Page 37
Gustavus wanted information about the planet. Climate, population, industrial capacity, rulers, topography, history, anything.

..

Curator-Adept Skel had access ot thousands of archives throughout the Segmentum and across the Imperium, including the great archives on Terra itself. In those archives, thousands of curators, prefects, archivists and menial workers went to work, finding out anything about Taros. From ancient records a picture of the planet and its population was slowly compiled. From tithe levels and tax records a picture of the planet's mining industry was built. Old censuses revealed the planet's population growth. No piece of data about Taros was to be considered too trivial.
Initial efforts at gaining intel on their target. Note that they do all this within six months. I'm not sure it really served any purpose, but to be fair it's not a bad idea. Of course, you'd think they'd want more recent information (as to what the tau are doing, for example.) I don't remember any mention being given of reconnaissance or scouting operations being conducted in the system by the Navy, and you would think that would be a priority of theirs if they're intending to carry this thing ff in a year. We know they do it in other battles. Hell they did it in the Damocles Gulf fairly routinely, and that invaded an entire cluster rather than a single world. But like Black Admiral noted with the Avenging Sons, intel was never really considered.

It is rather interesting that, wherever they are, they have acces (within months) to all the data from across the Imperium, as scattered, fragmentary, or bizarre as it is. How or why we don't know, although a certain level of astrotelepathy is probably involved. It may also be tied to the sorts of 'information redundancy' carried out by the Imperium as mentioned in the Blood Angels novel REd Fury (with copies distributed throughout the Imperium at diffrent sites, updated as often as possible.)

Page 37
A team of Lexmechanic and Logis, under the command of the Magos Volta, was also assigned to the information gathering task. They worked with computer-speed to compile all the data Skel was producing. The Adeptus Mechanicus' part-human, part machine servants forecast the planet's population growth, weather patterns, climate, volcanic activity, atmospheric conditions, orbital cycles. Information stretching back as far as the Great Crusades was found.
Lexmechanics work with "computer speed" although quanitfying this in any way ia debable - speed at what? and what kind of computer? And while this is all very informative you have to wonder what actual purpose this serves in the here and now.

Note that the information, while helpful, is largely predictive and not much current is available. As noted they evidently ignored the use of scouting or recon forces. By the end this will be yet another mistake to lay at the feet of the planners (although to be fair we dont even know whether they tried or not, they may have tried and failed. But if they had.. you'd think they'd have mentioned it.)



Page 37
In all millions of fragments of information were gathered ot create a complete picture. Satellite survey images, language studies, missionary reports, journals of long dead servants who had vistied or been stationed on Taros. There were old genetic studies on the population and the ruling households, carried out by the Ordo Famulous seeking evidence of genetic deviation or mutation . Adeptus Arbites crime rate reports, geological and seismic surveys. No detail could be ignored, anything that might inform Gustavus' staff decisions was included. In all it took six months to compile all the information the High Command staff needed before the invasion planning could get started.

After six months of work Gustavus had as good a picture of what was facing him as the Adeptus Terra could provide. He knew what the planet was like, how big the population was, and how this might translate into the Planetary Defnece Forces' military strength, given the equipment that had been supplied to Taros down the years. He knew how the planet might be able to re-equip or resupply its forces, or create new units. He even had a forecast of what the criminal population of Taros was likely to be (often the first supply of manpower to be used as replacement troops). What he didn't know was anything about the Tau's strength on Taros.
Various points:

- the ORders Famulous (Sororitas orders) keep genetic evidence/studies of those families they serve/work with, in order to monitor for evidence of genetic deviation or mutation.

- PDFs often seem to utilize the criminal populations of their planets if replacement troops are needed (At least as the first source.) I'm thinking PDF versions of penal legions or just general cannon fodder.

- Six months of planning overall, but very little hard data on the tau. The local defense data will doubtless be of help but that's really minor compared to the tau. Still no mention of scouting or recon forces (you know to find out about tau strengths and such.)

Perhaps the information gap is one reason for the time expenditure to this point, but I'm more inclined to think we have just alot of politicking and bureacracy and general crap.

Page 37
There were few informers or spies on the inside of the Tau Empire. There were a few humans, mostly merchants or mercenaries, whose loyalty could be bought by the Imperium, but most humans within the Tau Empire were simply traitors who had abandoned the Emperor. By assessing the infromation from other planets along the borders of the Tau Empire, studying previous estimates of Tau military strength and historical presidents, Colonel Scheja could make himself an educated guess at how strong Tau forces might be on Taros, but without people on the ground, he had no confirmation.
A big problem for the Impeirum. Lack of intel continues to be a substantial problem the Imperium faces in this conflict, and probably explains why they had to go do other means (mainly guesswork.) It does suggest they have access to data from past conflicts (EG Damocles gulf) but the way they fight the battle makes you think they ignored it (to be fair, Taros precedes Savage Scars by a looong time, but still..)

This also implies that either they tried to insert intel forces onto the planet and failed, or it proved impossible to do so and they didn't try. Either way this means they're going in blind, which is going to REALLY bite them in the ass in any number of ways.

Intel is yet another way that one can compare Taros to Damocles Gulf. At Damocles Gulf a strong effort was made to collect and distribute information as efficiently and quickly as possible pertaining to the tau to all arms of the force, and they managed to do a good job of this. They made use of recon and orbital surveillance and other assets, and all this occured under conditions not much different than now - they knew virtually nothing about the tau or their capabilities. You would think things would be different at Taros but... they're acutally worse.

Page 37
Imperial Guard regiments needed to be raised, trained and transported across the Imperium. This was no easy task. The demand for troops in the build-up around the Caidan Gate was vast, particularily now, as the 'Plague of Unbelief' around the Eye of Terror continued to spread. The Imperial Guard might be huge, but still demand for regiment is always far greater than supply.

To counter the effects of increased demand Gustavus devised a scheme to overestimate the troops strengths need. He knew all along that he would not get all the forces he requeste,d but this way he might get close to his actual requirements. As yet he could give no definitive numbers, but he set the logis to work making an initial statistical analyse, and this gave him a starting point. Over the coming months the numbers would be modified and gradually evolve into a final figure...
- the commander of the Taros invasion deliberately schemed to over-inflate his troop estimates in order to insure he might get close to his "actual requirements." Yet more politicking and intriguing. It's actually kind of hilariosu how you have to 'barter' for the troops you need to carry off a mission, but this also just shows what a trivial venture Taros actually is in Imperial terms - it's not involving the local sectors of space in any obvious way (supplying troops or ships), they're not raising regiments from the nearest planets and dispatching them to face off the invasion (like they would in other caes, as noted in the IG Codexes.) Nor do we get any hint of Inquisitorial iad or involvement - you'd think they'd be both interested in this sort of situation as well as a great benefit in dealing with the tau, but apparently not.

Its also mentioned that "Demand for regiments was always far reater than supply" - it seems like that if this guy overinflates his figures, other commanders probably could or would as well, and thus the demand might be overstated as well. If the Imperium had 100,000 Wars and involved 100 million troops in every conflict, this would be roughly equal the annual tithe drawn from the Hive Worlds of the Imperium as per 5th edition. Nevermind that we know there are many sectors in the Imperium that are relatively peaceful and stable, and actually need to go out and start wars to keep things going (EG Calixis, Scarus, etc.) FFG calls it a 'siege mentality'.

Additionaly, we see the beginnings of what will be yet perhaps the most significant if not fatal problem for the Taros campiagn: logistics and supply. Since this is occuring at the time of the 13th Black Crusade, not to mention other conflicts (Hive Fleet Leviathan and the other Hive Fleets, Third Armageddon and the various Ork empires causing trouble, etc.) Taros is going to naturally be low priority, whether the justifications for holding back troops are reasonable or not. It's this reason that perhaps keeps the Imperials from having a real chance at retaking Taros, but they still would have had a better chance had they gone about it seriously with the resources they do have.

This also further emphasizes how "minor" a campaign Taros was for the Imperium. Losing Taros would hurt the Imperium a little bit, but the loss would hardly be crucial to the overall situation, hence it lacks any real effort put behind it. Indeed, it feels like a War by bureaucracy, what with all the deal making and pride and number crunching, but very little practical is being done. This is being conducted by minions of the Administratum/Adeptus Terra, for their personal reasons, and is thus a force being deployed from a long ways off, rather than ordering the local forces to deal with it and letting them choose how to cope. Again, contrast this with the Damocles Gulf Crusade or the operation in Kill Team.

Page 37
The Imperial Guard might be vast, but with demand for regiments currently so high, it was not infinite.

..

De stael's initial request to Gustavus for twenty-one regiments was turned down as over cautious. That size of force could not be found in the tight timescale that Gustavus had devised for the invasion; Gustavus himself was under pressure to speed up the invasion....

...

The Lord Marshal returned with a more moderate twelve regiment request, which Gustavus accepted, taking it in turn to the Departmento Munitorum. However they refused, offering an absolute maximum of ten regiments. Even then it took much bartering with the Munitorum officials to get them to agree to find ten regiments.
Again we see how unimportant the Taros attack was consideed in the scope of things. The pressure was interesting though despite the "unimportance" of the conflict - I'm guessing again politics (certain segments of the administratum and AdMech wanting this pulled off.) And again you're left wondering why they aren't raising the forces from nearby worlds and sending them off to war, as would be usual in the case of an invasion - Taros would be part of a larger sector, and the resources of that sector or even subsector could be brought to bear on the conflict. Instead we have negotiations going on to scrape up the forces to send for this little venture rather than being raised form nearby worlds as is more typical.


Page 38
Gustavus only agreed to attempt the invasion with ten regiments after receiving an oath from High Magos Volta that at least one Titan legion would be committed to the invasion force.
..

Gustavus informed De Stael that the 4621st Army would consist of ten regiments. and, for ease of administration the army should be divide into two corps, designated X Crop and XI corp.


- the 4621 Army, the TAros invasion force, was comprised of 10 regiments divided into two Corps, and the inclusion of one Titan Legion. To be blunt, I can't see how the Magos seriously made that promise given the situation. If normal Guard regiments are going to be hard to come by, Titans are going to be even less available, even to AdmEech forces as a role. Which brings up another question - why couldn't the Magos requisition Skitarii? A few regiments (Legions?) certainly could have been spared from Stygies, and their generally superior nature would have contributed greatly to the offensive capabilities of the forces. Not to mention provided more than a little protection fro the more vulnerable warhound Titans against Tau attack.

Also note that 10 regiments deploying to Taros is only considered feasible with AdMech military support. Bear this closely in mind, because this is yet another aspect of the logistics angle doomed to failure. And these are 10 regiments being carted in from all around the galaxy. By contrast, the DGC had some 19 regiments raised from a sector's resources, and a large chunk of which was armoured or mechanised (or at the very least, motorised.) - which echoes the 21 regiments they'd wanted but was refused for being 'excessive'. hell 12 regiments was 'excessive' which is pretty damn silly considering how many trillions of troops get tithed annually. Even with several wars ongoing. It's pretty silly that the Munitorum simply 'can't' find a score or even a dozen regiments to dispatch.

Page 38
But Tallarn is only a single world, with a limited supply of men. Most of its existing regiments were already committed to other warzones and ten new regiments could not simply be raised. The tithes on the planet did not allow for such a sudden massive drain. A single new recruitment could be orderd from Tallarn and that process was instigated. The Tallarn 331st regiment would be raised, equipped and shipped to Taros to see its first action. Three other Tallarn regiments could be withdrawn from their current commitments and embarked to Taros, although all had recently been engaged in battles and they also needed replacement men and equipment finding. A fifth regiment, the Tallarn 3rd Armoured, was currently on garrison duty on Balle Prime.

..

These would be combined to form X Corp.
A good idea to use Tallarn troops on what is likely to be a desert enviroment. It also makes sense given that we know Tallarns are highly proficient at mobile warfare. They may not be as mobile as the tau, but they would be better than nothing.

Note also that Tallarn are many tens of thousands of LY distant from the eastern fringe. We aren't exactly sure, since the 5th edition Guard codex list them on the north-eastern section of Segmentum Tempestus, whilst the Core Rulebook puts them alternately in Tempestus and Segmentum Ultima near the Maelstrom. I'd guess the latter is an error, but hard to say. In any case they raised one regiment from there and sent it off halfway across the Segmentum (or Galaxy) to fight at Taros within a year (more probably six months.)

This does not seem a practical way to amass forces, especially given how the IG codex mentione dthe Guard forces raising tithes to 20% on worlds around the Tau Empire to counter the Third Sphere Expansion. Hell, Tallarn's regimental tithe is 50,000,000 men annually. Even assuming a fairly sizable regiment of 10-20K men, that's thousands of regiments a year. Even allowing for the problems in the Eye of Terror region, it seems like Tallarn should be able to send far more than just ONE freshly raised regiment. Skimming off even a tiny percentage of that (1/1000th of a percent) should have provided far more troops from the Tallarns alone than the entire Taros invasion ever fielded at one time. So the idea that Tallarn would be hard pressed to field ten regiments seems patently absurd.

I also have to note I find it rather hard to believe that they can throw regiments halfway across the galaxy on a whim yet they can't adequately supply the force as it ought to be to face the tau. I'm pretty sure travel from Tallarn to Taros in under a year is going to be more resource intenseive than a sector-based crusade would have been, nevermind locating and hauling all those other regiments.


Page 38
XI Corp would be composed of the other Imperial Guard regiments that the Adeptus Munitorum would commit to the taros Campaign.

..

The first was the 23rd Elysian Drop troop regiment.
Backup forces. Would include Elysians, which would be useful. At least, useful if they ever used them as they were intended. Note that the Elysians are another regiment that come from far away. While this doesn't mean they were far off, it is kinda silly to be raising regiments whose worlds are on the other end of the galaxy form the war you intend to fight. It's not like the Elysians are the only drop troops in the Imperium (of course they're the only ones Forge World covers..) The use of Cadian forces and the consideration of Mordian and Krieg forces is in the similar position. It's also hilarious they only drafted one Krieg regiment, given that Krieg is supposed to outproduce other worlds (like Tallarn) in regiments, and they're individual regiments are effing HUGE.

Page 38
Against the Tau, mobility would be important. Tau forces, with their Mantas and a preponderance of grav-tanks, drones and battlesuits are fast and highly mobile. Conventional Imperial Guard infantry and Armoured regiments could not hope ot match their speed, and because of this they would be continually forced to fight on the alien's terms. A Drop Troop regiment, although lightly equipped for airborne operations, would help redress the balance and give Lord Marshal De Stael the chance to match the Tau mobility on a strategic level.
This demonstrates that the staff planning the assualt had at least some vague idea of Tau capabilities. The fact they sought out the Elysiasn as well as Brimlock (who are mobility-based troops as well and are knoweldagble about fighting the Tau) as well as the Cadians reinforce this.
Sadly, this will be the ONLY indication that they gave thought to what the Tau might do, and we shall be left wondering what the hell happened to this later on given the actual invasion plan they go with.

I'm also not entirely convinced that the mobility issue was THAT serious. I'll admit Russes aren't the speediest tanks ever, but Chimeras aren't exactly slouches for speed, and crews tweaking the engines for greater speed is a fiarly common thing (Russes have done it, and we know Salamanders do it. we know space marines do it as well.) There's no reason they couldn't have souped up the engines 'unofficially'

PAge 38
The Sarennian Assault engineers were, in his opinion, some of the most useful troops in the sEgmentum. They were equipped for close quarters combat and assaulting fortified positions, clearing minefields and breaching defense lines. Few in number, the Sarennians would not be required to fight as one regiment but, before the invasion began, be divided into platoons and companies and attached to all the other regiments of the 4621st Army. This way they would provide a core of assault troops when, as predicted, the time for hard streetfighting in Tarokeen arrived.
Oddly we never hear about this group again, certainly not in any battle with the Tau. Of course they never MADE it to the city so...

Page 38
Other regiments scheduled to join the 4621st Army on Taros were the 114th Cadian Shock Troop regiment, an entirely Mechanized unit under the command of Colonel Stranski. Then would come to 8th Brimlock Dragoons...

..

The 12th Manninen Rangers regiment was transported, but on arrival turned out to be only the strength of a reinforced company.

...

The 42nd Mordian regiment was also embarked for Taros, only to be divereted to face Hive Fleet Kraken on the Eastern Fringe.

...

Eventually, the 19th Krieg Armoured regiment was requested, but it would take time to find their current location, get new orders to them and emark them for Taros. They would not be available for the initial invasion.
The rest of XI Corp. We again see the logistical problems facing the TAros invasion force rear its ugly head, and not for the last time. Note the Manninen Rangers were merely company strength, and thus we see one of the key shortcomings of the Adminstratum 'regiment' system and treating regimetns sa roughly equal. So rathe than ten regiments we only have nine being deployed, and the Krieg never actually make it, so it's only eight. The problems only get worse from here.

Note that if they were intending to receive Krieg Meatdroids, you would think they could have acquired far more than one regiment. Krieg is supposed to be a soldier factory, and given the size of the regiments they produce you'd think that even one or two regiments would have greatly multiplied the amount of troops on Taros handily. (Of course siege forces would also be pointless against the Tau...) But again they're scraping up regiments from all over and just tossing them across the galaxy rather than doing something sane (like raising them locally) so these sorts of problems are bound to be expected.

The Cadians and the Dragoons would have provided a much-needed mechanized component to the armoured forces being deployed.


Page 38
X Corp would also be reinforced by two companies of Storm Troopers.

..

They would provide a useful strengthening of the front line regiments. Like the Sarennians, the two companies would be divided as squads amongst the other Imperial Guard regiments.
Useful yes. Whether or not they get properly employed, though, is another story.

Page 39
In De Stael's strategic plan for the campaign XI Corp would act as the support to X Corp. The Tallarn regiments would be required to do the bulk of the intiial fighting...

..

XI Corp would follow on and be fed into the ground campaign once it had started. The actual invasion fleet would only be carrying X Corp when it arrived in the Taros system.
..

Once the entire X Corp was established, the next priority would be to get the 23rd Elysians 'in country', to give the 4621st Army the ability to strike just about anywhere, anytime.
Again in theory I can understand why you might not want to commit all your troops en masse, and hold back reserves (real life forces like to rotate forces in that same manner, since troopers cannot fight indefinitely) but I can't get over the idea that not committing fully and aggressively against the Tau is a better idea here. Especially when your reserve forces tend to be the most mobile parts of your army and their whole stated reason for being there was to counter the mobility advantage of the tau. You would think your least mobile elements, the foot infantry would be your reserve. It's not like the regiments can't be broken up after all.


Page 39
A strike force of two companies and a battle barge from the Raptors Chapter would contribute significantly to the Imperium's combat power, both on the ground and with the fleet.
2 companies of Astartes are perhaps going to be the best and most important force you could contribute to this campaign. Especially from the Raptors (Raven Guard descendants.) They should be ideally suited to dealing with and countering the tau's advantages as well as shoring up the Imperium's shortcomings here. (The DGC contingents were roughly 3 companies worth, but they were drawn from a much larger pool of marines which carried some drawbacks in unity and cohesion, whereas 2 full companies from the same Chapter should be used to working and fighting together.) Now as I said before if the Avenging Sons hadn't thrown their forces away in a pointless gesture of defiance, they might have been able to deploy that company (perhaps with more aid to facilitate revenge.) alongside the Raptors and done some good.

Of course, the Astartes conduct on Taros (or lack thereof) is going to be one of the more infuriating parts of the book.


Page 39
..High Magos Zakadine Volta had already promised the aid of a Titan legion, but delivering on the oath proved move difficult.

..

There were no battlegroups available to lend assistance.

..

In the end the intervention of the Fabricator General secured Volta a small battlegroup from Legio Ignatum under the command of Princeps Jernay. THE battlegroup consisted of just four Warhound Titans, hardly the force he had hoped ofr, but enough to satisfy Volta's oath to Gustavus.
Once more logistics fails the Imperial side. Of course four warhounds is nothing to sneeze at, but I find it hard to believe that's ALL the forces the Magos could provide. They have lots of forces less than Titans - Skitarri and tech guard, combat sevitors, etc. which should be available to commit. So why not commit those? Especially given how valuable they view titans, they SHOULD very well have been supported. A Skitarii commitment would have made a huge impact on the firepower and mobility side of the equation. But no such luck, which will only serve to benefit the Tau.

Page 39
The Departmento Munitorum, as well as raising and transporting regiments, could also provide assistence in the form of indentured engineering and labour corps.
Oh well, that's a compromise I suppose. This can actaully be of some use. During the DGC the Munitorum was able to provide some form of mobile transportation even for the foot regiments, evne if it was simply letting them hitch a ride on their conveyors. Given all the problems cropping up in amassing troops (and the right kinds of troops) to face the Tau down, having any useful means of transport other than walking is to be considered a blessing. At least, for a half competent commander.



Page 39&42
The Ministorum could also provide assistance, but not in the form of combat troops. Cadinal Astral Velas was not inclined to lend military aid to the Taros Invasion Force.

..

The Cardinal made it clear he was not in favour of this expedition. To him it was a waste of resources that oculd be put to better use fighting heresy elsewhere in his diocese. Taros was a dust-bowl planet of just twelve million souls, there were still wars to be fought on Hive Worlds to save the souls of Billions. The Cardinal felt it was only the malign influence of the Adeptus Mechanicus lobby that had forced the Adeptus Terra into sanctioning this attack, and he did not trust the Cult of the Machine and their myserious ways.
Politics again. Damn Ministorum has to act like dicks and everyone suffers. One would think that they would be raring to go to eliminate the filthy aliens (like in DGC), but.. I guess not. While Sororitas aren't exactly Astartes, they're well armed and quite mobile (with Rhinos) and could have been a useful presence on the battlefield. And it's Admech vs Ecclesiarch politics which are driving this (The ADMech are seen as a rival and a threat, and the Ecclesairchy has perpetually tried to control or infiltrate the AdMech over the millenia.

This again runs contrary to Damocles Gulf, which as risen primarily at the behest of a freaking Cardinal. Which just shows how screwy the politics get in this entire debacle.

On the other hand the Cardinal has a point (of sorts) about the motivations driving this whole campaign, so they can't be all bad. And yet again we see just how tiny and unimportant in Imperial terms Taros is.


Page 39

The Naval forces committed to Taros were the

Rightesous Power, an Overloard Class

Star of Cassieopeia - Tyrant Class

Blac Duke Dictator Class

Hammer of Thrace Lunar class

August Dauntless class

Cerebus Dauntless class

Escorts:

Errant and Invincis squadrons, sword class

Omna squadron: Cobra Class

Novern Squadron: Firestorm class.

4 armed transports, 3 heavy transports, 5 regualr transports, ,a heavy tankor, and a Behemoth Class (Titan carrier, presumably.)

The Raptors had one battle Barge (War-Talon) and one Gladius class Escort.

There were also 4 fighter wings, 2 bomber wings, and one tactical wing. This is, I should note, rather understrength for what they needed, given only one Dictator class cruiser. One would imaginet hey would employ a makeshift carrier or something at least.

On the other hand, I'm also pretty sure that a Dictator-class cruiser could carry more than 7 fighter squadrons. The Macharius in Execution Hour, for example, carried at least a dozen fighter squadrons (that I can remember).. and those were the multi hundred ton fighters rather than the "micro" fighters IA uses. what's more, the Rogue Trader RPG makes it quite clear that Cruisers can carry upwards of 12 squadrons of any kind, and 'aeronautica' - the atmospheirc aircraft, can be much larger than space based forces (scores of them as opposed to dozens) It should have been quite possible for them to have fielded far more than they did, which woudl have done much to help out. As it is, the air power issue is yet another point they will be screwed on time and again, which sucks because it was one of the more consistently successful aspects of the campaign.

Aside fro the IG army thta was already discussed and the Raptors and the Titans, there were others. I should note that here its noted that regiments (Brimlock Dragoons and the Krieg) never saw action on Taros. So we're looking at eight regiments total.

The other forces were: 224 Enginseer and 12 Ordnance teams from the AdMech, The Assasinorum had agents of unknown numbr (But more than two) The Navy had 5 Fleet-Ground Liaison teams. The minstorum provided 6 Ordo Hospitaller Field hospice, and 19 Ordo Diologis Interpreter teams. The Munitroum provided 2 Labour Corps, 2 Engineer corps, and 78 supply columns. The Administratum provided 16 Mortuary Teams, 18 Adeptus Archivists, 42 Statisticians Teams.


Page 40
\
With a full entourage of aide-de-camps, staff officers, Commissar,s Adeptus Mechanicus Advisors, bureaucrats, etc. he [Gustavus] will have to juggle their competing demands for supplies and favour, as well as make strategic decisions that will send thousands of men into battle.
Yet more politics. This isn't the end of it either. Again a decent commander probably could have still made this work, but Gustavus never really impressed me. De Stael is going to prove ot be a very useless meatbag.


Page 40 - Horcic is mentioned here. The only thing worth noting is that he has no authority over the Space Marines or AdMech.

Page 40
Volta is the staff's main liaison between its commander and the rulers of the Stygies VIII forge world. Votta has his own large entourage of Logis, Rune Priests, Lexmechanics and servitors.
Again, why couldn't he drag Skitarii along? Or combat servitors or anything neat like that? You would have thought they'd at least send in 4 Warhound titans supported (they usually do.) and sending in Warhound titans unesecorted seems to be just begging to get your ass kicked. Hell at this point even a token force (a few thousand) would have been of immense help.



Page 40
During the planning stage Kotto and his staff struggled to get enough landing craft to simultaneously transport three Imperial Guard regiments, the minimum required by De Stael's invasion plan.
..

Once Imperial Guard troops are ont he ground, reinforcing them and keeping all the forces supplied, especially with water, becomes Kotto's top priority.
Another "theoertical" bit that tends to fail in practice, as we find out. We dont know the regiment 'size' being transported, but my guess would be the Tallarns since they're the core of the military offensive and one of the largest regiments, so we're probalby alking 6-10K per regiment, or 18-30K troop transport.

Page 40
.. De Stael has a keen strategic mind, born of past experience and detailed study of the Tactica Imperialis. A quiet, studious man, with an eye for detail, De STael likes to plan carefully before committing any troops. His meticulous (some would say cautious), approach to campaigns and battles has caused frustration with more aggressive commanders in the past. De Stael realises that it is far easier to commit troops to battle than it is to disengage them.

..

but De Stael's studious manner hides an inner ruthless streak and iron resolve.
"cautious" and meticulous does not strike me as the sort of guy you want to throw against the Tau, since the Tau are also meticulous and cautious and they are on the defensive, have a planet with intact industry, and have lots of time to prepare. And upon whom you have zero intel on. Sending a cautious man into that sort of situation is... lunacy. I really can't find myself liking the man or willing to make excuses for him, because a great deal of the Taros fuckup from this point onwards are his doing, and the fact he was given a shit hand to begin with doesn't really alter that fact.

Page 40
His [Captain Orelius, Raptors Chapter 3rd Company] forces will not be involved in a protracted ground campaign. Once their mission is complete the Space Marines will be withdrawn to their battle barge to prepare for their next deployment.
understandably you dont want the Astartes involved on the ground too much, but this really makes it seem like they don't really intend to (or want to) use them all that much. Which is stupid, because the Astartes are fast and mobile and likely to be one fo the better counters against the Tau. We've already established they know the Tau are going to be a dangerously mobile force, and they tried building forces meant to counter that into their plans.. they should be employed to do just that.


Page 41
His [Col Scheja's] own staff officers study and collate information from all sources, Imperial Guard regiments in the field, Imperial Navy reports, scouting Titans, and any and every source the Imperium has. He has an overview to the wider strategic situation, not just the fighting on the ground on Taros. He is Gustavus' spy-master, a secretive individual operating in the shadows, with a greater degree of independence than other commanders.
We don't hear much from this guy either really, and he doesnt seem to manage to do much of benefit.

Page 42
The Orders Dialogus would supply useful support in the form of Tau language experts. The Order Hospitaller would provide some medical care fr the injured, but the contribution was, in truth, small.

Power Politics within the upper ranks of the Ecclesiarchy probably had much to do with the Cardinal Astral's reticence.
..
.. in shadowy corners it was spoken that Velas was not a supporter of the current Ecclesiarch. To be lending aid to the invasion might be seen to be responding the Ecclesiarch's recent anti-alien sermons.
..
He might also be seeking favour with those factions within the Ministorum that had their own plans for the successionto the Ecclesiarchal Throne of Terra.
Again, politics kicks the Taros invasion square in the crotch.

Page 42
Gustavus' command had been almost a year in pre-invasion information gathering and mustering the forces, now it came to planning the actual attack.

..

A traitor from within his ranks with access to classified informaiton might sell it to the Tau for a vast price or the promise of safety within the Empire.
The year is almost up. This implies they had only a few months (if that) to travel to Taros from (one presumes) Terra. We know at least one force from Tallarn had to be amassed and deployed out to the Eastern Fringe, which means at least a segmentum (if not two) worth of travel. Tens of thousands of c at the very least, and more probably hundreds of thousands of c.

Also more politics. They're afraid the tau might infiltrate them and somehow communicate their intentions and plans. Actually part of me wishes this had been the case - it would have made more sense of things in the long run, but again intel seems to have been one of those things that got ignored (on both sides.. the Tau apparently ad enough luck to compensate.)

Page 42
He [Scheja] would establish a network of informers and spies within the High Command and Imperial Guard regiments...

..

To aid with the inertnal security, Gustavus ordered that the gathering invasion force should not be concentrated just yet. The men would be scattered about surrounding sectors. This way it would seem many other small warzones were being reinforced.
Useful precaution, but it just delays things more.

Page 42
Drawing upon the good work of the previous year the High Command began the invasion planning process.
..

Firstly, the invasion would need to quickly capture an operational spaceport. If not in the initial assault then in the following few days of ground operations.

..

Secondly, the invasion should be undertaken by at least three regiments simultaneously. This would be a force large neough to overwhelm all but the very strongest resistance, and would mean a firm bridgehead could e established between orbit and the planet's surface...

..

[Thirdly] The Ground forces would need a secure supply of water rapidly, or the fighting men would be unable to operate effectively.
Water it will turn out (or rather the lack thereof) will become the bane of this crusade, and this planning reflects it. Also note the "three regiment" assault.. another ideal that will fail to be met, along with the "capturing a spaceport" goal. Really the planning all sounds interesting and uesful on paper, but the theoretical shit does not even remotely survive once we get to the actual conflict.
The funny thing is, what they're planning here actually sounds more sensible than what actually happened, because what it is describing is swift and overwhelming assault - which the actual assault was anything but.


Also "nealry a year' in planning.


Page 43
Firstly, Taros had only one Spaceport, in Tarokeen. Hence a direct assault on the city was considered in some detail. Tarokeen was also the centre of the planet's industry and administration. If the war was to be one then Tarokeen would have to be captured. Whilst the Traitors or the Tau held the city the war would go on...

..

Tarokeen and its immediate hinterland, the Iracunda Isthmus, woudl be the strongest defended part of the entire planet. A direct assault, under the guns defending the city would invite disaster. Too many enemy ground forces would be waiting for them, too many orbital defences could threaten the invasion fleet. The direct approach was disregarded as too risky.

The Landing zone would have to be close enough to the ultimate objective to keep supply lines short, but not os close as to riskt oo much enemy resistance.
- its noted here that the planners of the invasion DID consider a direct drop on the city of Tarokeen, the capital of Taros and its only spaceport. They also, however, deemed it (and the immediate vicinity) around the city to be the strongest defended part on the entire planet. A direct assault under teh guns of the city would be disastrous (Too many ground forces to threaten the troops, too many orbital forces to threaten the invasion fleet.)

They also knew they had to keep the landing zone as close to the city to shorten supply lines, but not so close as to invite enemy attack on said landing zone (enemy resistance to the landing)

To complicate matters, numbers of drop ships/assault transports were very limited, providing problems as far as deployment of troops was concerned. This also hampered attack flexibility (attacking several locations, though that was dismissed on the grounds it might weaken the overall force enough to allow the TAu to defeat it in components.)

It was also assumed that the Taros defenders would need to occupy/cover every portion of the planet (thus spreading themselves thinly), whereas the attackers need only have concentrated in one area.

Supplies were also an issue, esp water in a desert neviroment, and constant supply would be a threat constantly faced during the campaign.

The cities guns also apparently hamper any large scale close in landings (like in or around the isthmus) even to a considerable (hundreds of km?) distance out, which will force the Imperium into accepting a dangerously (retardedly) long and vulnerable supply chain. Again, logistics fails the Imperium.

Now.. how practical is all this? Alot of it makes sense and is reasonable. However, I don't quite see why 'orbital assault' was so costly - the Avenging Sons pulled it off so why shouldn't the raptors be able to do so (they manage it quite well to punch a hole in the defenses in the opening stages, after all.) It's very hard not to chalk this up to De Stael being overly cautious and pessimistic.


Page 43
Secondly, the main restriction on the initial attack would be the number of drop ships and assault transports available.

..

This was no easy task, and it was unlikely that enough could be found to simultaneously land three regiments. Anyhow, Gustavus wasn't convinced it was needed. Three regiments would give the invasion force the flexibility to attack several locations at once.
Yet another goal of the Taros Invasion plan fails. Truthfully the drop ships end up being the most under-utilized part of the invasion (next to the Astartes.) Remember that mobility is the big shortcoming of the Taros invasion force, and they have at least a regiment's worth of transport capability.. Which owuld be quite useful in supplementning the Elysians you would think. Or in transporting supplies. Drop ships and assault transports are meant to carry and deploy troops into combat situations after all, and they might still have pulled off the 'attack several locations at once' plan with a single regiments worth of transport.. it would just take longer.



Page 43
Even if Taros was expecting an attack... .. they would have to defend every possible lcoation an invasion might fall. This would cause Taros and the Tau to spread their forces thinly. Gustavus' plan would allow their forces to concentrate at a single point in overwhelming numbers.

..

In the end, a single landing zone strategy was settled on.
It was also mentioned that splitting the forces up risked the Imperial forces getting caught up and destroyed piecemeal. Much of the reasoning is sound (the Tau come to the same conclusion as we see) but we also see that the ultimate lack of intel on the enemy hampers the Imperial forces forcing them to guess at intentions. And whilst sound, it never seems to occur to the Imperial commanders that the tau might also realize this, and also realize that Tarokeen must be the key objective... which logically means they would want to hold that objective at all costs. It's where all their industry and anti air/space defenses are, after all.

The fact they don't plan for other contingencies based on what they must know of Tau tactics or what the tau might know is also pretty damning - its oversights like these that give the tau all the room they need to cut the invasion force off at the knees repeatedly throughout the campaign.


Page 43
Wherever the landings eventually occured water would have to be supplied from off world, shipped-in on the heavy tankers in vast quantities, at least until sufficient supplies could be catpured. Standing orders were to be issued to all Imperial Guard regiments that any moisture extraction equipment or hydro-plants capture during the course of the campaign were to be undamaged and turned over to High Command.
..

Extra water evaporation equipment would also be loaded.
Yet another potential failure point in this invasion - water was crucial. We know already that there are water producing facilities on the planet, yet they seem to make no special effort or provision to targeting such facilities, even though capturing them would cover this dangerous shortcoming for the Imperials while causing similar problems for the tau. Indeed, one must wonder why capture and control of the hydro processing facilities and hydro farms wasn't considered an important goal. THat way, if the main assault fails, they can fall back on a siege. Between a blockade of the planet and control of the water facilities, they could have forced the tau into surrender sooner or later. Indeed, this would have been a good use for the reserve forces if nothing else.


Page 44
At 2392998.M41 the Taros Invasion Fleet officially came into existence under the command of Fleet Admiral Kotto...

..




As the fleet readied only X Corp was present. The regiments of XI Corp would follow behind as a second wave after the fleet at fought its way in-system, alunched the invasion forces and established a secure lodgement area on the surface. Also not yet present was the Legio Ignatum Titan battlegroup, but the fleet could not wait for stragglers.

..

At 404998.M41 the astro telepathic signal was sent to the bridge of the Righteous Power instructng the fleet to get under way.
Logistics again. The forces are ultimately committed piecemeal and this complicates an effective assault. This, combined with the pressures of a quick, decisive victory and every other problem up to this point, will only make things problematic later on.


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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Raxmei »

Now that you mention it the use of so many regiments from outside the segmentum was a little odd, especially Cadians. This whole exercise was ultimately in support of the war in Cadia and took place after high command had recalled all Cadian shock troops to Cadia. Commercially speaking, of course, the only IG model homeworlds located in Ultima Segmentum are Catachan, Valhalla, and Attila. Cadians are the flagship model range of the guard so of course they're involved in all campaigns whether it makes sense or not. Realistically the attack would have been carried out by local forces, either existing Guard regiments that happen to be in the area or forces raised for this campaign from neighboring planets. Raising regiments specifically for the campaign in far flung worlds is of course madness. More sensibly the Tallarn regiments would have been a lucky catch diverted from a nearby conflict (as indeed some of them were) or raised from a no name desert world in the area.

Another part of what's going on here is that conflicts in 40k tend to involve surprisingly few troops in general. The writers seem to envision even major conflicts as just a bunch of big 40k games and it shows in the description of major battles as well as the troops listings when given. A dozen regiments sounds like a lot more than it is when in your usual context a company is a really big army.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Black Admiral »

Well, as far as the Cadian 114th goes, my favoured rationalisation is that they simply happened to be close enough to fall within the net for Gustavus's search. Although that explanation certainly doesn't suffice for why he chose to go shopping for regiments in another Segmentum rather than, say, declaring a founding on Brimlock (which provided seven out of nineteen of the regiments involved in the first wave of the Damocles Gulf Crusade (of which six can be positively identified - the 4th, 17th and 19th Dragoons, 9th Fusiliers, 2nd Armoured and the Brimlock Light Infantry)). If he'd done that, he should've been easily able to get the regiments he'd originally planned for and more besides. This is aside from the admittedly somewhat iffy solution of, say, drafting PDF regiments into the Guard straight up.

And, even with the rationalisation that Gustavus wanted Tallarn regiments for their desert fighting expertise, there have got to've been desert worlds capable of raising regiments closer to hand than Tallarn. It's not like they're the only desert worlders in the Imperium.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by PainRack »

I was always under the impression that the Cadian and Tallarn regiments had been assigned to the subsector or sector as its strategic IG force, and due to the need to rapidly deploy and conclude the campaign, the Adminstration simply didn't raise any new regiments from other worlds.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Raxmei wrote:Another part of what's going on here is that conflicts in 40k tend to involve surprisingly few troops in general. The writers seem to envision even major conflicts as just a bunch of big 40k games and it shows in the description of major battles as well as the troops listings when given. A dozen regiments sounds like a lot more than it is when in your usual context a company is a really big army.
That depends entirely on the sort of conflict and why the guard is needed. In some cases the conflict is small enough you only need a regiment or two, or possibly even less (garrisoning a research outpost, for example, can use a company or battalion.) If it's just to bolster the existing PDF you might not need huge numbers of troops either. Typically it's only the major conflicts like Black Crusades or planetary invasions (or Imperial Crusades) that need the really big numbers of troops, and those all tend to be massive logistical nightmares. Indeed, logistics can be as valid a reason for why so few troops arrive - sometimes that is all the Munotirum has available or is willing to commit, or they may not have enough resources to transport very many troops, or whatever. That's actually what makes the idea that the Imperium knows nothing but attrition warfare (As if they have the consistent and massive logistics to pull that off in every single battle, even if we did take the 'limitless human resources' thing literally.)

PainRack wrote:I was always under the impression that the Cadian and Tallarn regiments had been assigned to the subsector or sector as its strategic IG force, and due to the need to rapidly deploy and conclude the campaign, the Adminstration simply didn't raise any new regiments from other worlds.
They could be, but there would likely be garrison reserves closer to Taros as well (we're talking an entire segmentum here, one of the largest in fact.) like they did with the Brimlock Dragoons. And even if there WERE no reserves, they had wasted over a year in simply planning and moving those troops across the segmentum to Taros - in that same time they could have raised or trained any number of troops even from civilian conscription somehwere and moved them to Taros in far less time than it took to raise and deploy the forces they DID send. I'm willing to bet logistics would have been easier as well.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by PainRack »

Connor MacLeod wrote: They could be, but there would likely be garrison reserves closer to Taros as well (we're talking an entire segmentum here, one of the largest in fact.) like they did with the Brimlock Dragoons. And even if there WERE no reserves, they had wasted over a year in simply planning and moving those troops across the segmentum to Taros - in that same time they could have raised or trained any number of troops even from civilian conscription somehwere and moved them to Taros in far less time than it took to raise and deploy the forces they DID send. I'm willing to bet logistics would have been easier as well.
You're assuming that those forces were free to actually move to Taros. Garrison duties on more important worlds might have been deemed too risky to redeploy to Taros, although IIRC, the text does describe how some of the desired troops became absorbed in some other battles.

Furthermore, I think you missed my point. The Tallarn regiments, the Elyssians and etc could very well have been deployed to the sector Taros is in, or even subsector as that subsector strategic force. Not the segmentum force, which is what you seem to be arguing.

That was one of the plausible postings IG regiments could derive. Garrison duties, an active war zone or a strategic force. It would also make the entire war more consistent with other fluff, in which Imperium responses to rebellion, invasion and etc is on a subsector/sector basis, and not the centralised from Terra view which IA 3 suggests.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Black Admiral »

PainRack wrote:Furthermore, I think you missed my point. The Tallarn regiments, the Elyssians and etc could very well have been deployed to the sector Taros is in, or even subsector as that subsector strategic force.
The Tallarn regiments are not - the 331st was explicitly founded on Tallarn itself for the Taros campaign ("a single new recruitment could ordered from Tallarn and that process was instigated. The Tallarn 331st would be raised, equipped and ship to Taros to see its first action", IA3, pg. 38), The others were all committed to war zones elsewhere and had to be pulled out, with the exception of the 3rd Armoured, which was on garrison duty at the time (IA3, same pg.). It may possibly be the case for the Elysians and Cadians, seeing as how there's no information on what they wee doing prior to being grabbed for duty on Taros, but I doubt it, considering how desperate Gustavus was for regiments and how far afield he was searching.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Alkaloid »

Another part of what's going on here is that conflicts in 40k tend to involve surprisingly few troops in general. The writers seem to envision even major conflicts as just a bunch of big 40k games and it shows in the description of major battles as well as the troops listings when given. A dozen regiments sounds like a lot more than it is when in your usual context a company is a really big army.
A dozen regiments sounds misleadingly small to us, I think, because of the way the Imperium differentiate soldiers from logistics. Don't get me wrong, a dozen regiments is still small, but that is a dozen front line combat regiments, where as today, if we hear 300 thousand soldiers are deployed to somewhere, that's not 300 thousand tank drivers and riflemen, but includes cooks, truck drivers, medical staff, engineers and all the other myriad jobs that an army needs to run, but in the Imperium they are not listed as part of the army, so if you hear 300 thousand guardsmen that's 300 thousand guys whose main job is shooting people.
The Tallarn regiments are not - the 331st was explicitly founded on Tallarn itself for the Taros campaign
The way the guard regiments and recruitment seems to work though, that Tallarn regiment could well have been founded from the leftover Guardsmen from the planets annual tithe. We know from the novels that Guard regiments in the field are reinforced with recruits from their home world if possible, and given that there are potentially hundreds and more likely thousands of Tallarn regiments seeing action and needing reinforcements every year, it's likely that those regiments are sent replacement troops first and whole new regiments are formed where possible from any men not needed as reos. It may be that the regiment was formed and just earmarked for this particular army from that pool rather than a complete separate tithing.

This is going to sound strange, but this book sort of reinforces this feeling I've been getting about the Imperium, and that's that if possible they don't use conscripts. There are sources that indicate that soldiers tithed to be Guardsmen are required to be of a certain quality (the exact source escapes me, I think it was one of the rulebooks but I'm not sure) and as such the planetary governor generally sends the cream if the PDF, and we know Guardsmen are generally superior in ability as well as equipment, so that sort of adds up. We also know that some worlds practice conscription for their armies, and some appear not to, so the Imperium don't seem to care how they are recruited as long as they get the bodies, so if conscripted on Vostroya, fine, if volunteer PDF military from Elysium, fine, and if from a world like Cadia where everyone is conscripted at birth, fine again, they just need the correct number of regiments to report to the landing grounds on the given day. The people conscripted into the guard en mass with little training, as far as I can reason, anyway, seem to be when something goes wrong and the local PDF can't handle it, the Guard forces in the surrounding systems can't handle it, and the Imperium is bringing in forces from further afield but need men to throw at the problem in the meantime to try and contain it, or when a crusade has reached a critical point and needs soldiers faster than the regiments they have are due to be reinforced.

It sort of means the Guard are largely defensive, actual offensive operations in a broad strategic sense are rare largely because there are a huge number of Guard armies jumping from brushfire to brushfire (the Cain books are a good example, its campaign, garrison, hear of problem, ship out, campaign, garrison ad nauseum) and need to be constantly reinforced because they are more necessary, and having enough units available to form into a new army at one time is difficult, so offensive campaigns, or crusades, are difficult to get started unless the entire political structure of the imperium can be brought onside.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Agent Sorchus »

Alkaloid wrote:
Another part of what's going on here is that conflicts in 40k tend to involve surprisingly few troops in general. The writers seem to envision even major conflicts as just a bunch of big 40k games and it shows in the description of major battles as well as the troops listings when given. A dozen regiments sounds like a lot more than it is when in your usual context a company is a really big army.
A dozen regiments sounds misleadingly small to us, I think, because of the way the Imperium differentiate soldiers from logistics. Don't get me wrong, a dozen regiments is still small, but that is a dozen front line combat regiments, where as today, if we hear 300 thousand soldiers are deployed to somewhere, that's not 300 thousand tank drivers and riflemen, but includes cooks, truck drivers, medical staff, engineers and all the other myriad jobs that an army needs to run, but in the Imperium they are not listed as part of the army, so if you hear 300 thousand guardsmen that's 300 thousand guys whose main job is shooting people.
You are actually wrong about the logistic aspect, Cain's main regiment has either a quarter or a fifth of their numbers in a none combat support company. They are still required to carry a Lasgun but in most cases they don't have to do anything with it since it is a defensive weapon. The more common depiction from Gaunts ghosts is the under maned under equiped infantry force stuck in constant combat with an HQ that dislikes them, they should not be considered normal. And even there the medical teams are part of the regiment, though less likely the cooks. Like Connor likes to say it is hard to generalize in the Imperium, they are so large that any rule will be broken and we have such a small view of part of the Imperium it is hard to even figure what the rules of thumb should be.

(I've been thinking of working through the Cain novels like Connor does, but think that Cain is just not the best place to look for stuff, and I think Connor has covered some of them anyway.)
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Black Admiral »

Ultimately, it seems to depend on the regiment. While one company (out of five) of the Valhallan 597th is a dedicated Support Company, the majority of others seem to have their support arrangements, outside of direct Combat Support, e.g. pioneers and such like, handled by either Munitorum non-combatants or local forces (as an example, the Pavonis PDF non-combatants providing a support arm for the Lavrentian 44th Hussars in Courage And Honour).

As far as the regiment numbers, those from the Cain series have to be looked at knowing that they're typically operating alongside Planetary Defence Force units which are going to make up the majority of the forces involved (Cain's casual dismissal of them, and the fact that the majority of the PDFs shown therein are rubbish, aside), and the fact that the Valhallan 597th is on the small side as Guard regiments go (numbering ~1,000 all ranks; the mentioned Lavrentian 44th Hussars number on the order of 15-20,000 personnel, and are a combined armoured cavalry-armoured role infantry regiment, while the regiments described in the IA books are usually close to what we'd call brigade combat teams).
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by PainRack »

Black Admiral wrote: The Tallarn regiments are not - the 331st was explicitly founded on Tallarn itself for the Taros campaign ("a single new recruitment could ordered from Tallarn and that process was instigated. The Tallarn 331st would be raised, equipped and ship to Taros to see its first action", IA3, pg. 38), The others were all committed to war zones elsewhere and had to be pulled out, with the exception of the 3rd Armoured, which was on garrison duty at the time (IA3, same pg.). It may possibly be the case for the Elysians and Cadians, seeing as how there's no information on what they wee doing prior to being grabbed for duty on Taros, but I doubt it, considering how desperate Gustavus was for regiments and how far afield he was searching.
I missed that bit, in my memory, it was a new regiment that was shipped to Taros as opposed to one that was raised for Taros.
Conceded.
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Re: Imperial Armour 3 and 4 discussion thread.

Post by Rogue 9 »

I just finished reading a borrowed copy of Imperial Armour 3 a couple of weeks ago. The way the Imperial campaign was conducted was simply pants-on-head retarded from start to finish; there was basically no excuse for it. From what I can gather, the writing staff over at Forge World just likes to have the Imperium lose horridly for stupid reasons; excepting Vraks, which hardly counts given the outcome (and could have been improved had they not also been stupid there), have they ever had the Imperium succeed in a campaign?
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