Posleeen vs Orks: Planetary Combat

[Zor]

In this scenario, you have an earthlike planet with terren flora and fauna as well as a few random scrapyards littered about filled with a mixture of derelect modern earth and star wars vehicles.

On this world have been deposited the following forces...

100,000,000 Orks, among them the usual assortment of Boyz, Mekboyz, Weirdboyz, Nobz and Bosses. All are armed as usual. They have various tools and weapons up to a few aircraft and tanks.
100,000,000 Posleen, among them the usual assortment of ground equipment and weapons as well as Tenars and Tenarals and various support equipment such as Nanoforges and a planetary datanet, as well as those critters that they usually bring along.

Both of these groups start out on oposite sides of the planet with knowledge of the othe group and their capacities.

A sizable floatilla of ISDs have been placed in high orbit with the orders to waste anything that goes above the atmosphere. Other than that they won't interfear, while the crews will watch, bet on the teams fighting and enjoy a nice cool beer.

Who comes out on top?

Zor

[KhorneFlakes]

I'd say the Orks. While the Posleen may have high resistance to all forms of weather and chemical warfare, the Orks are nearly outright impossible to eliminate permanently once their spores get into the planet's atmosphere. They're also going to physically stronger and more durable than the Pozzies, as I understand from Ahriman's analysis that the Posleen normals aren't that much physical stronger than humans. Obviously, in this case I'm referring to normals engaging Slugga Boyz and the usual Orky melee combatants engaging the Posleen.

When it comes to other thingos however, I'd say that short of carpet nuking the Orks the Pozzies don't really have much of a chance. And the Pozzies don't have stuff capable of nukage as defined by the RAR.

What about the ISD Flotilla? It seems to me that while they have orders to do this and taht and shit, do they actually know anything about the Pozzies or the Orks other than that they're not allowed to let them get off the planet. Do they get magical RAR knowledge stabbed into their brains?

[Simon_Jester]

Posleen have a massive advantage in the quality of their long-ranged weapons, in my opinion, and orks don't use the kind of ballistic artillery that slaughters Posleen hordes en masse. Posleen breed quickly, perhaps even faster than orks.

Because of those advantages, this would be a hard fight for the orks to win- but the sheer impossibility of eradicating them might well win it for them.

One perverse possibility is that the Posleen 'win,' colonize the planet, then go through their predictable overpopulation/resource depletion/nuclear apocalypse cycle. Usually they leave the planet when that happens, but here that just gets them blown up by the ISDs, leaving the orks with a victory by that most ancient and venerable of standards: being in possession of the battlefield when the smoke clears.

WAAAGH!

[KhorneFlakes]

That was another thing I forgot to mention. What stage are the Pozzies at when it comes to equipping the normals? They might just be able to cause a near-MAD if they can make themselves enough guns.

[S.L.Acker]

We need to figure out what type of Orks we're dealing with here as different groups will fight and be equipped in very different ways. For example a speed freaks army is going to have lots of trukks, bikes, buggies, and battlewagons. An army with an influential Mek will see more Killa Kanz, and Deff Dreads in the mix. So the OP doesn't give us much to work with, saying that the Orks get a few tanks and aircraft totally ignores the way different groups fight. Also with one hundred million Orks we're going to see a lot of crazy things happening due to the group psychic energy and we'll certainly see Stompas in the mix, if not as part of the OP's starting forces then built as things go on.

We really can't do much more without knowing what strain of Orks the Polseen are up against.

[Sidewinder]

I've read several WH40K novels, e.g., the Ciaphas Cain and Space Wolf omnibuses- I know orks have a tendency to fight and kill each other when they can't find anyone else to fight. Are the Posleen smart enough to notice this vulnerability, and take advantage of it, e.g., kill the warboss, retreat and wait for the surviving nobs to start killing each other, and then attack the now leaderless ork mobs? Or are they too dependent upon writer's fiat to use such tactics?

[Zor]

What about the ISD Flotilla? It seems to me that while they have orders to do this and taht and shit, do they actually know anything about the Pozzies or the Orks other than that they're not allowed to let them get off the planet. Do they get magical RAR knowledge stabbed into their brains?

Yeah, they have intel and are taking notes.

Zor

[Ahriman238]

Well, both groups reproduce insanely quickly, both groups have weapons competitive with their surrounding groups, but prefer melee.

The Posleen don't have psykers, and won't be building things like Gargants anytime soon. The Orks don't have anything like the tenar and their autotargeting and sensors. The Posleen quickly achieve air supremacy, using their landers as airlift/air assault against every target they can't beat by swarming. Who do you think wins, C-Dec vs Gargant?

The Posleen have a signifigant mobility disadvantage in mountains, swamps, forests, basically anywhere you wouldn't want to take a horse. In open ground, the situation reverses itself nicely.

Posleen weapons are well-ranged, but inaccurate and direct fire, limiting them to line of sight in most cases (another reason for the posleen to favor plains.) Said weapons have pretty absurd firepower for infantry, and weapons that can kill tanks are disrubingly common. Speed Freaks will probably not fare well in the fighting, and forget wartrukks.

I'm going to call it a stalemate, though I think the Posleen will eventually command most areas they'd really want, and run into troubles expanding further. Both sides are basically no-limit fallacies when it comes to multiplying, without figuring out who would run out of bodies first, it seems like they'd keep going at it forever.

[Connor MacLeod]

Much will depend on what the Orks and the Posleen start out with. I mean a bunch of normals with shotguns are not going to be nearly as dangerous as they would be if they have railguns. The posleen will be hampered by the lack of lampreys though, since those are (IIRC) one of their primary means of supporting fire aside from the Tenars (and now tenarls). The orks do use artillery - I think its mostly mortar or direct fire type stuff, but it can be both numerous and overpowered (And generally fire alot of shots). Ork accuracy shouldn't be as detrimental against the Posleen as it would against other races.

With that said, I'd venture that the first engagement is going to be the least decisive, and I'd also say there's a good possibility of the Orks losing. This isn't as bad as it sounds, becaues what an Ork likes most of all is a good fight. They don't mind losing because it means they just come back later and try harder. And they usually do. I mean, look at Armageddon. The constant conflict and even losing will be beneficial to the orks because of their tendency to grow and strenghten thorugh conflict - that is how orks get bigger, meaner and tougher. IT also allows the Orks as a whole to adapt with each new generation. If the previous generation's tactics don't work you might start seeing the dispositions of the force adjust to apply new tactics (EG the growth of more Ork kommandos or speed freeks because those are needed.) We know that the growth of Orks (kind, number, etc.) can be influenced by the psychic gestalt of the race in various ways.

Don't forget as well that Ork spores infect the enviroment and gradually 'orkify' it, nevermind their industry. Against the Tyranids (latest Tyranid Codex IIRC) it was even noted that Orks and Tyranids are constantly fighting even on the microscopic level (Tyranid cells vs Ork spores/cells). The psychic nature of the race also can have psychological impacts on the enemy (fear, demoralization, etc. In 'Rynn's World' the Rynnite troops were driven to suicide in the face of Ork hordes.) How much of an effect this would have on Posleen I can't say, but it's worth noting. Don't forget also that Orks have access to pretty good powerfield tech in various forms (even on vehicles, possibly), teleporters, and similar.

And lastly, the Orks can only be truly 'removed' from a planet by basically sterilizing it. I don't know if the same applies to the Posleen, but as long as spores remain you will still periodically get a new infestation of Orks.

[Simon_Jester]

We need to figure out what type of Orks we're dealing with here as different groups will fight and be equipped in very different ways. For example a speed freaks army is going to have lots of trukks, bikes, buggies, and battlewagons. An army with an influential Mek will see more Killa Kanz, and Deff Dreads in the mix. So the OP doesn't give us much to work with, saying that the Orks get a few tanks and aircraft totally ignores the way different groups fight. Also with one hundred million Orks we're going to see a lot of crazy things happening due to the group psychic energy and we'll certainly see Stompas in the mix, if not as part of the OP's starting forces then built as things go on.

We really can't do much more without knowing what strain of Orks the Polseen are up against.

This is par for the course in a Zor RAR!- very detailed in some areas, extremely vague in others.

As a practical matter i suspect, ork demographics being what they are, that it balances out. The orks will likely show a mix, ranging from near-feral boyz who live in the howling wildnerness and try to make dakka out of sticks and mud, up to gargant-building Big Meks. From the zoomiest deffkopta pilots to the stompiest meganobz. And so on.

I've read several WH40K novels, e.g., the Ciaphas Cain and Space Wolf omnibuses- I know orks have a tendency to fight and kill each other when they can't find anyone else to fight. Are the Posleen smart enough to notice this vulnerability, and take advantage of it, e.g., kill the warboss, retreat and wait for the surviving nobs to start killing each other, and then attack the now leaderless ork mobs? Or are they too dependent upon writer's fiat to use such tactics?

The Posleen may deduce the vulnerability... but they themselves have the same weakness, in some ways more so. Their normals aren't even sentient; kill a God-King and his force of several hundred normals starts acting like a bunch of heavily armed, aggressive chimpanzees unless another God-King can re-bind them.

Well, both groups reproduce insanely quickly, both groups have weapons competitive with their surrounding groups, but prefer melee.

The Posleen don't have psykers, and won't be building things like Gargants anytime soon. The Orks don't have anything like the tenar and their autotargeting and sensors. The Posleen quickly achieve air supremacy, using their landers as airlift/air assault against every target they can't beat by swarming. Who do you think wins, C-Dec vs Gargant?

Hmmm. That's probably a pretty close call. My money would be on the C-Dec due to vastly superior long range targeting capability. Although the orks are psychotic enough to try to build something functionally similar to SheVas and actually make them work, because they believe it works.

[Pictures ork version of a SheVa]

[runs]

I'm going to call it a stalemate, though I think the Posleen will eventually command most areas they'd really want, and run into troubles expanding further. Both sides are basically no-limit fallacies when it comes to multiplying, without figuring out who would run out of bodies first, it seems like they'd keep going at it forever.

I still favor my theory- Posleen win by dint of (relatively) superior use of long range firepower, orks win in rough terrain. Posleen start overpopulating their parts of the planet while the 'frontiers' of the Posleen territory are dominated by endless rounds of warfare between Posleen and ork. Rough terrain goes to the orks and stays there- the Posleen cannot reliably dislodge them.

Eventually, Posleen-controlled areas become overpopulated- there aren't enough orks filtering out of the wilderness to keep their numbers down. As usual they wreck the planet in a nuclear holocaust after their numbers reach a critical mass where internecine warfare becomes inevitable. ISDs in orbit destroy their attempts to evacuate in starships, orks eventually swarm out of the hills and take over the planet from the stunted Posleen remnant- they can probably tolerate an irradiated hellscape better than the Posleen, for one.

Much will depend on what the Orks and the Posleen start out with. I mean a bunch of normals with shotguns are not going to be nearly as dangerous as they would be if they have railguns. The posleen will be hampered by the lack of lampreys though, since those are (IIRC) one of their primary means of supporting fire aside from the Tenars (and now tenarls). The orks do use artillery - I think its mostly mortar or direct fire type stuff, but it can be both numerous and overpowered (And generally fire alot of shots). Ork accuracy shouldn't be as detrimental against the Posleen as it would against other races.

Ork artillery... I've never seen it used much outside of siege situations. It's field artillery that's really decisive against the Posleen, in my opinion.

[Black Admiral]

Orks do actually have field artillery - it shows up in the Imperial Guard novels Rebel Winter and Gunheads. The former shows Gretchin-guided rockets (or possibly gliders, I really can't recall offhand), and the latter various flavours of self-propelled gun, all firing very high calibre shells stuffed with ridiculous amounts of high-explosive.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, what I mean is that it's a question of how mobile, how coordinated it is with the front line, and so on.

The equivalent of a World War Two-era planned barrage, aimed carefully at assembly areas and creating specific killzones, works great against Posleen... but I doubt orks can do that.

[Black Admiral]

Well, yes, their usage is somewhat ... haphazard. Although Orks are certainly capable of calling in indirect fire (as at one point in Gunheads the Golgothan Orks call in an air strike specifically against the command Shadowsword of the Cadian 81st Armoured), their gun crews tend to favour direct fire from relatively short (<5 km) ranges, probably because they wouldn't be getting job satisfaction if they couldn't see the results of their handiwork.

Ultimately I imagine it depends on the Warboss - someone like Ghazgkhull, Nazdreg or (indeed, especially) Snagrod would probably think of that idea, and have the force of personality (and gift for krumpin' complainers) to get it done.

[Hawkwings]

Nah, da orks would just make the biggest guns they could, load up the biggest shells they could, and fire in all directions towards the enemy.

One thing to note is that orks scale to their opponents. The tougher the enemy they're fighting is, the bigger, stronger, faster, and more kunnin' they get. And their mechanical contraptions similarly get bigger and killier. It takes quick, overwhelming victory to send them back into the jungles and such. A long protracted campaign against a stronger enemy will just cause them to get better.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, yes, their usage is somewhat ... haphazard. Although Orks are certainly capable of calling in indirect fire (as at one point in Gunheads the Golgothan Orks call in an air strike specifically against the command Shadowsword of the Cadian 81st Armoured), their gun crews tend to favour direct fire from relatively short (<5 km) ranges, probably because they wouldn't be getting job satisfaction if they couldn't see the results of their handiwork.

Ultimately I imagine it depends on the Warboss - someone like Ghazgkhull, Nazdreg or (indeed, especially) Snagrod would probably think of that idea, and have the force of personality (and gift for krumpin' complainers) to get it done.

Thing is, ork tactics tend to be, even under such great commanders, rather hamhanded. Not necessarily stupid- that ham may be dropped on you from orbit and land with meteoric force- but hamhanded. Strategic and operational subtlety is there, but mostly of the "hit them where they're not looking" sort. The kind of complex, preplanned grasp of the operational art I'm talking about simply doesn't work well with orks.

So yes orks will have and use artillery against Posleen (air attacks will be suicide). But I do not expect, from the portrayals of orks that I have seen, that they will be capable of the kind of carefully planned deployment of that artillery that it takes to slaughter Posleen before their powerful direct fire weapons come into play.

Nah, da orks would just make the biggest guns they could, load up the biggest shells they could, and fire in all directions towards the enemy.

Well, they'd have at least some genuine intelligence in the aiming, under a good warboss- that's not the point. The point is that while the fire may be aimed intelligently, it won't be planned, because there is no such thing as an orky general staff. Most Posleen will still be able to close through the beaten zone of artillery and engage the orks exactly where the orks want them to be- with direct fire weapons and even cold steel.

But Posleen have (assuming well-equipped units) a significant edge over the average ork when it comes to direct fire weaponry, hence my opinion that the Posleen have the edge in formal battle on their favored terrain.

[Connor MacLeod]

Part of the confusion is that Orks really don't follow an actual.. "pattern" of classifcation. They have sort of vehicle types, but they tend to be more insanely variable than the even faux-STC crap the Imperium fields. They stick a gun on a set of wheels, or treads, and that's basically a tank, assualt gun, troop carrier.. sometimes all in one. Battlewagons, Battle fortresses, stuff mounting Zzap guns, Kill Kannon, they're both artillery and tanks as far as Orks care. And the main thing is, they have alot of guns, and they're fast. It may not be as effective as raw artillrey, but direct fire tactics agains thte Posleen still work (that's the whole point of the ACS.) Orks are tougher than humans, and while they may take losses that won't matter. Hell, they'll even loot the opposing vehicles (They do it to the Imperium at least, and I think the tau) so why not loot Posleen stuff. The thing that will be desciive for orks won't be indirect fire capability, they're not going to fight like humans because they don't need to. They've got lots and lots of heavy guns, and a love of explosives.

Also remember that Orks arne't all the same. Some tend to be more 'feral' (like the Goffs) while others might learn or employ things they learn or borrow from the humans (blood axes) - thats where Stormboyz and Kommandos came from as I recall. It isn't so much that the Orks won't HAVE the stuff on hand, its that they definitely have the potential to defeat the Posleen with their tech, their capabilities, and their general ability ot adapt to become better fighters against that threat, and their hard to eradicate spore based reproduction. I'm not saying its a definite thing, because it is quite possible that the Posleen could out-breed them, or contain them if they wiped out the 'technological' orks and learned to suppress the fErals. This isn't quite the directed, rapid adaptation of the Tyranids (its' more haphazard) but they have an element of that going on, and that give sthem an advantage. They could develop effective artillery of some kind. Or maybe they learn to use air strikes. OR they might simply make more cybernetic orks and mega armoured/'eavy armoured troops. I shoudl note that really big, nasty, orks - the kinds that can fight Astartes, can mass up to half a ton to over a ton (several tons in armour - cf Rynn's world) and evne regular orks of the tougher variety will mass 300-400 kilos alone, a substnatial proportion of that being muscle. Between their immunity to pain, their thick bones and dense muscles, their healing abilities, and their strength enough to carry heavy armor, I imagine they could stand up to at least low level railgun fire. Millions of orks wielding heavy shootas (or bolters) may not be very accurate, but against billions of posleen you don't need to be that accurate.

Also bear in mind that as far as the Orks are concerned, the outcome matters less than the process. They're driven to defeat an enemy, but its having an enemy to fight that truly matters. Against that the only thing the Posleen can possibly due is eradicate them and keep them eradicated, and that's a stalemate at best.

[Ahriman238]

The Posleen are hermaprodites who have sex often, and lay eggs often. Whenever the Posleen are on the move, they'll stash their eggs in dark corners, under bushes or rocks. Takes them 2 years to reach full maturity to. They can be ultimately eliminated, but it can take centuries to do so, since you must basically sweep every foot or so of ground the Posleen have stood on, and check underground to be sure they aren't buried. And you have to deal with multiple armies of Posleen raised during the sweeping process.

The closest thing we have to quantification is the Posleen host that attacked Earth in the books multiplying six times over (not counting Posleen to young to fight) DESPITE fighting a global campaign involving nukes infrequently. We know a Posleen can live long enough to see at least 8 ornadars.

Actually if Jung is correct in his numbers, I see the Posleen overcrowding the earth within a decade even if their population only ever grew as fast as it did during the War.

Oh, and in the Hedren book the Posleen have man-portable casta guns (antimatter cluster bombs) if this is so in this scenario (I doubt it) I'll change my answer to "Posleen curbstomb funny green men."

[Simon_Jester]

Skip the casta guns, Ahriman.


Connor:

As I said, I predict that the Posleen will appear to have 'won' in that their ork problem is contained, for a while, until eventually the Posleen predictably wreck their parts of the planet and the contest goes to the orks by default.

Orks- the new warfare, with new sustainable technologies for the 41st millenium! Go green!


Oh, one point about ork spores. Posleen will not burn ork corpses to avoid sporing, but they will eat them, with gusto. If the Posleen win a battle the orks won't be doing a lot of sporing on the field, because the defeated side in a Posleen battle usually wind up as rations.

On battles where the orks win, or skirmishes that are indecisive, of course, sporing will happen as normal.

[Connor MacLeod]

Orks don't spore instantly the moment they die, but unless you burn the bodies fairly soon after they will start releasing spores. I wouldn't trust on Posleen eating habits to replace cremation as an anti-spore measure, unless they get into the habit of cooking their food beforehand, or something. It's also pretty silly to assume they would have to stop their entire assault just to strip corpses down to the bones (assuming the bones also can't spore.. I'm not sure if Ork regeneration extends to the bone structure but I suspect it does, otherwise their ability to grow tougher and put on more msucle and body mass would be rather lethal.)

Also as I vaguely recall spores tend to be rather generic.. an ork can shed spores that can grow into squigs, grots, snotlings, or orks, and its likely that any of those can produce spores that could grow into orks as well. Even if the Posleen inflicted casualties don't release spores at all, the Orks themselves will probably kill some of their own number (that's just part of their society) which will trigger spore releases. And this can include Orks eating other Orks (they eat orkoid species as readily as anything else.)

I can't recall much about Ork gestation or reproduction rate except that its far faster than humans, and less involved.

[bilateralrope]

Oh, one point about ork spores. Posleen will not burn ork corpses to avoid sporing, but they will eat them, with gusto. If the Posleen win a battle the orks won't be doing a lot of sporing on the field, because the defeated side in a Posleen battle usually wind up as rations.

I thought the Orks did most of their sporing while they were alive, with a burst as they die. But once dead, they don't release spores.

[Simon_Jester]

Orks don't spore instantly the moment they die, but unless you burn the bodies fairly soon after they will start releasing spores. I wouldn't trust on Posleen eating habits to replace cremation as an anti-spore measure, unless they get into the habit of cooking their food beforehand, or something.

What I mean is that as Posleen forces advance through the area in which they killed the orks, then as a matter of habit they will rapidly dismember and consume the bodies- raw, and they can eat most anything, probably including ork.

Of course, this assumes they aren't actively under fire at the time. They do much the same with their own dead.

Point being that where the Imperium might send out teams with flamethrowers to cremate ork bodies in the hours before they spore, the Posleen will send out teams with butcher knives.

It's also pretty silly to assume they would have to stop their entire assault just to strip corpses down to the bones (assuming the bones also can't spore.. I'm not sure if Ork regeneration extends to the bone structure but I suspect it does, otherwise their ability to grow tougher and put on more msucle and body mass would be rather lethal.)

Now that's a distinct possibility.

Also as I vaguely recall spores tend to be rather generic.. an ork can shed spores that can grow into squigs, grots, snotlings, or orks, and its likely that any of those can produce spores that could grow into orks as well. Even if the Posleen inflicted casualties don't release spores at all, the Orks themselves will probably kill some of their own number (that's just part of their society) which will trigger spore releases. And this can include Orks eating other Orks (they eat orkoid species as readily as anything else.)

I can't recall much about Ork gestation or reproduction rate except that its far faster than humans, and less involved.

Yes. Posleen are much the same- although orks don't swell to overrun worlds quite so fast as Posleen, probably because they engage in more internecine warfare, whereas Posleen only fight among themselves over resources towards the end of their stay on a given planet.

I figure breeding rate will be a tie- what's decisive is firepower and staying power, with Posleen having the one and orks having the other.

[Connor MacLeod]

What I mean is that as Posleen forces advance through the area in which they killed the orks, then as a matter of habit they will rapidly dismember and consume the bodies- raw, and they can eat most anything, probably including ork.

Of course, this assumes they aren't actively under fire at the time. They do much the same with their own dead.
Point being that where the Imperium might send out teams with flamethrowers to cremate ork bodies in the hours before they spore, the Posleen will send out teams with butcher knives.

Dunno about that. As per Planetkill, Ork spore reproduction has been known to actually fight against/match/overpower the Nid's phage cells and general ability to eat organic matter. Not always, but there is at least one planet where Orks stalemate the Nids in reproduction and numbers. Another in the Tyrnaid codex mentioned that the Orks were able to actually outnumber the 'Nids of a hive fleet in the short term (at least until the Nids adopted different and sneakier tactics). That says alot for the virulence and redundnacy of their spore reproduction, IMHO.

I also kind adoubt the Posleen are more thorough about stripping organic matter than the Tyranids. Do Posleen eat vegetables or plants or are they strictly carnivores? remember Orks are (somehow) partly fungal/plant based life so its possible they may not be wholly edible.

Yes. Posleen are much the same- although orks don't swell to overrun worlds quite so fast as Posleen, probably because they engage in more internecine warfare, whereas Posleen only fight among themselves over resources towards the end of their stay on a given planet.

I figure breeding rate will be a tie- what's decisive is firepower and staying power, with Posleen having the one and orks having the other.

Orks generally only fight against one ahtoher as part of their politics/dominance displays (for leadership or position) or when there is no other enemies to fight. It's part of their culture and general adaptive mechanism, because they evolve trhough warfare. But give them someone other than themselves to fight, and they can get remarkably unified. While I doubt the fighting would totally stop, I wouldn't rely on in-fighting to deprive the Orks of unity. The Posleen are tough enough of an enemy to trigger a WAAAAAGH if nothing else.

[Connor MacLeod]

Also some Ork related stuff to gestation and reporduction I dug out from one of the earlier codexes I've posted before.

The spores are also the reproductive mechansim of an Orkoid. When they settle in the correct conditions, the spore will evolve into the species whose genetic structure it contains. Orkoid spores require dank, dark locations to activate, much like other algaes and fungi. Caves and fores are the most successful spawning sides for Orkoid spores, but even in the most arid conditions, a proportionate number of spores will still land within a site suitable for development.

...

However, once the algal stage is established, Orkoid cells are generated in tandem development, and the Orkoid grows like any vegetative tumor.

....

Due to the nature of the spore process, dozens or even hundreds of Orkoids will emerge within a shortt spacee of time. The Orkoid algal cells contain the gene strands fro the diverse Orkoid species, so a singel type of Orkoid can still propogate an entire community on its own.

...

Perhaps within a year of the spores landing the Orkoids will be thriving quite easily.

...In essence Anzion specualtes that some sort of psychic resonance limits spore growth in proximity to established Ork settlements, ensuring an even spread of colonsiation.

...

Anzion goes on to discuss the generation of spores, concluding that Orkoids generate a grreater number of spores in the latter stages of their life span, with a final mass release after death. If correct this observation means that old battlefields and worlds liberated from the Orks are exceedingly vulnerable to re-infestation at a later stage. It is also possible that ships could unwittingly transporrtt spores from world to world.

That pretty much covers the reproduction angle. I suspect that means the Orks will be able to at least match if not exceed the posleen in reproduction, potentially. and they will be much harder to eradicate.

As for Ork durability and adaptability...

Due to the way the Orks' hierarchy is structured, with fighting to determine ranking, the most highly ranking Orks are the largest. This is not because they are better at fightnig but that a belligerent, aggressive Ork - one who has beaten his opponent - will put on several pounds of additional muscle tissue over the next two to three weeks. Orks preparing to challegne a superior will also put on weight as their psyche develops the necessary aggression....

...

Over extended fighting, the average size fighting Orks have been known to increase by several inches in height and almost a stone in solid muscular tissue.

Internal injuries are similarily treated, and the multiple redundancy of many Ork organs also provides plenty of transplant donors for those in need of such measures.

A typical Ork stands around the same height as a man, though he would be much taller if he would onyl stand up straight. His frame is extremely muscular and solid. An Orks' arms are long and heavily thewed, and his knuckles almost scrape the floor as he lopes around. His gnarled hands end in taloned fingers capable of tearing an enemy's throat out with ease.

An Ork's skull is extremely thick, able to absorb impacts that would cave in an human head.

..

An Ork's genetic make-up contains fungal and algal strains, making them highly resilient. The skin of the Ork is green and leather-tough, and his body is dotted with scars, scabs, pock marks, and parasites.

..

An Ork feels nex to no pain even from the most grivous of wounds, enabling him to fight on whilst horrifically injured and even for a short while after he is technically dead. The greenskin regenerative process is so powerful that an Ork who has been cut apart in the crucible of battle can simply be stitched back together again, bewildered but ready to fight once more.

Prolonged periods of conflict lead to a proportional increase in the size and strength of an Ork, and greenskins who have fought in an active warzone for a few years tower over those who have been deprived of such stimulus. Longer wars produce even larger combatants. At the climax of Warlord Thogza's decades-long Waaagh! into the Duros sector, the Ork veterans were reputed to reach a size almost twice as tall as a man.

An Ork's body harbours the genetic traits of both animal and fungal life forms, and it is this plant-like nature that gives the Ork his remarkable constitution. The Ork's green colouration is due to an algae that flows through thier blood, and also forms part of their digestive tract. This algae breaks down and repairs damaged tissues at an incredible rate, accounting in part for the Ork's extrmeely durable metabolism. An Ork's head can live for some time even when completely severed from the body, and can even be transplanted to another body altogether before death sets in.

The Ork reproduces by the dispersal of spores that settle and mature over time. an Ork's demise triggers a mass release of spores that can develop into dozens of cocoons. THough these cocoons may hatch Gretchin, Snotlings, or just simple fungi depending on conditions, a good number will mature into fully-grown Orks after a short gestation period. THese spores are dispersed far and wide by the wind, which makes the eradication of the greenskin presence from a contaminated warzone impossible to effect with anything short of the cleansing firestorm of Exterminatus.

A few Ork spores will come to rest in remote zones where no other ORks dwell; dense jungles and arid deserts where normal civiliasations find it difficult to survive. The spores rapidly infest the area and grow without threat of discovery. Over a relatively short period of time, the ORk hatchlings band together into loose tribes.

The Algal cellular sub-system is comparable in many ways to the human bloodstream. It is bound within their anatomical structure at a molecular level and works alongside the stnadard genetic and biological processes. The Orkoid algal structure responds to damage in combination with blood clotting and so forth. This means that even large wounds will be covered with a hard, skin-like layer within a few hours of the injury occuring, as the algal cells rapidly replicate to repair the damage.

We found that however serious the injury, if the Orkoid did not die immediately from shock it was unlikely to die from loss of blood or organ trauma. This regenerative proceess is aided by the Orks' crude medical knowledge - whole limbs can be grafted on, organs freely swapped, wounds stapled shut and so forth with only .0023% chance of tissue rejection. The Orkoid's ability to withstand such usually mortal wounds makes them such a fearsome prospect

Samples taken from Ork colonies in the Paramar and Goliant Sectors, where Orks are low in density, showed a decrease in body mass of 15-19%. They were less physically aggressive (although still capable of tearing a man limb from limb if neccessary). To compensate for this reduction in stature, greater reliancee is placed on their crude technology, with ranged fighting taking greater precedence over the brutal affair of close melee. This sub-type of ork is not widely found, both due to their lack of numbers and also the fact that such developments take place in the most solitary and backwater conditions.

Conversely, Orks in greater numbers are much more likely to be fiercer in combat; more aggrgessive and short-tempered; impatient and less likely to employ ranged weaponry with any noticable effect. it appears that the greater the number of Orks present (on a global and interplanetary scale) the more the Orks' savage basic instincts prevail. Such specimens are physically larger than theri scattered counterparts, and the muscle:mass ratio of their exological makeup is greater [in other words, there is literally strength in numbers for the Orks.)

[Simon_Jester]

Dunno about that. As per Planetkill, Ork spore reproduction has been known to actually fight against/match/overpower the Nid's phage cells and general ability to eat organic matter. Not always, but there is at least one planet where Orks stalemate the Nids in reproduction and numbers. Another in the Tyrnaid codex mentioned that the Orks were able to actually outnumber the 'Nids of a hive fleet in the short term (at least until the Nids adopted different and sneakier tactics). That says alot for the virulence and redundnacy of their spore reproduction, IMHO.

Yes- it won't prevent orks from reproducing on the planet, Posleen don't eat the whole biosphere. What it will do is cut back the numbers a bit, assuming that "burst of spores several hours after death" thing is still valid.

I also kind adoubt the Posleen are more thorough about stripping organic matter than the Tyranids. Do Posleen eat vegetables or plants or are they strictly carnivores? remember Orks are (somehow) partly fungal/plant based life so its possible they may not be wholly edible.

Posleen will eat most anything, animal, mineral, or vegetable- OK, not mineral, but animal and vegetable are fair game. They raise crops (presumably plants, but possibly some sort of fungus, or an analogue of both).

If Ork flesh is toxic or indigestible to them, it would be just about the first thing they ever encountered able to give them an upset stomach.

But give [orks] someone other than themselves to fight, and they can get remarkably unified. While I doubt the fighting would totally stop, I wouldn't rely on in-fighting to deprive the Orks of unity. The Posleen are tough enough of an enemy to trigger a WAAAAAGH if nothing else.

Yes, that's true. What I mean is that the background level of infighting is one of several... unquantifiable factors that make me want to say that breeding rate is more or less a tie. We can't definitively assign faster population growth to one side or the other. Both species reproduce at crazy-fast speeds, and can potentially overrun worlds in a matter of a decade or two once large populations are established on the ground.

Orks are physically hardier and much harder to fully eradicate, even though Posleen are pretty difficult themselves in that regard. On the other hand, Posleen mostly have better weapons and (in sufficient mass) are likely to use them to better effect. The Posleen have vastly superior antiaircraft weaponry- air superiority will be theirs, though the space blockade in this scenario may stop them from using it to full effect.

The reason I keep coming up with "Posleen short term, orks long term" as a solution is because it incorporates the great strength of both species- the opening onslaught with powerful weapons of the Posleen, and the brute endurance and dogged refusal to quit that characterizes the orks.

[Connor MacLeod]

I dont think Ork flesh will be indigestible per se, been trying to find an example of that (given the carnivrous nature of the algal based component of their biology, it seemed possible, but nothing explicitly on that.)

I agree with the long term, but the 'short term' is an entirely depends situation. Like most 40K things, nothing is set in stone and it depends on how you outfit them. How many vehicles they have, what kind? What are they allowed to build? What sorts of Ork Boyz are we talking about? Even ignoring the specialists you can have close assault (with sluggas and choppas) or you could have shootas (ranged.. at least by Ork standards.) You can have heavy weapons, anti tank weapons, flamethrowers, etc. They have quite a bit more variety in weapons, and excepting perhaps the HVMs (which are pretty wonky if you ask me) there is nothing definite. Ork energy weapons are likely to be as powerful as almost any Posleen equivalent (Barring HVMs).

weapon quality? well I guess that depends on what calcs we're going by? What's the firepower of the 1mm and 3mm railguns? The HVM I will agree are probably superior (Unless there was a particularily poor showing I can't remember) but the railguns are pretty open ended. I remember that chick Mike's dad had the hots for getting cored by a railgun round but she survived (rather than being blown into itty bitty pieces.) Ork weapon quality will depend entirely on what we're talking about. They can have scaled up stubber weapons (which can pack quite a bit of momentum in the impacts) which can be smoothbore or rifled. They can have automatic rifles (akin to heavy stubbers, if not scaled up.) They can use bolters. They can have ork variants of laser and plasma weaponry. Their flamethrowers are, in some ways, melta analogues (at least in cutting mode) I'd bet they're at least equal to an Astartes bolter in size and power, at least for the kinetic components. Certainly at least .50cal or more.

Choppas can be alot sharper/deadly than their nature can let on (same with armour) due to the WAAAGH effect. I remember that if an Ork believs a choppa is really sharp it will be able to even cut through astartes plate (eventually at leasT) an dthey do use chainweapons. I dont think this is much of an issue against Posleen however. I also suspect that physically, the difference betwene Ork and Posleen is alot less than Posleen and human.

What's more I dont remebmer Posleen using or wearing body armor. WE know Orks can and do (anything from crude flak to welding, wearing bits of scrap metal plate, up to their own versions of carapace and powered/terminator armour.) That may or may not give them an advantage. In any case Posleen are tough combatants for humans, but I dont think that translates into being difficult combatants for Orks. The Posleen rely on numbers as much as superior weaponry (relatively speaking) to overwhelm the opposition and they may not have much if any superiority - certainly not short term and probably not long term. Orks are likely to be at LEAST as tough, and possibly tougher. Their weapons may not be accurate (possibly worse than posleen?) but they will definitely be able to harm or kill them if human small arms can, and there are alot of orks. They will have vehicle weapons support as well, which depending on numbers can be helpful (and they are relatively easy to construct for Orks.) They'll also have power armor, cybenretic orks, and dreadnoughts (both for Grots and Orks) which will provide ACS support of a sort (not neccesarily in quality, but quantity can overcome this) which will also help. They'll take losses but that won't matter, because that's fine with Orks, but they can fight the Posleen head to head, and have a good chance of succeeding.