The Great Devourers - ALL OUT WAR

[SpaceMarine93]

Recently, I read a crossover fanfic where Warhammer 40K meets Halo. A lot of chapters features an epic conflict on the Delta Halo between the forces of the Flood and the forces of the Tyranids, with UNSC, Imperial and Covenant forces caught in the middle. The outcome of the battle is uncertain, as the Imperials enacted Exterminatus on the entire Ring later in the story.

This gives me an idea.

There are three great all-consuming, highly adaptive and all-overwhelming alien hordes running around the fictional universes today - the Tyranids, the Zerg and the Flood. Each share similar qualities; hive-mind intelligence, utterly relentless and plenty of reserves to spare. Each of them have their own unique strengths and weaknesses.

But face it, one of them has to be better than the other two. And I want to know which one.

Let's just say, by either some supreme cosmic joke or devious scheming of Tzeentch, all three forces of devourers converge on a peaceful, temperate UNSC world with 7 billion people living on it. All three come in fleets of same sizes and all three start on the planet with a small force of roughly the same size. (how many they start with depends on preferences)

All those living on the planet are trapped, defenseless and utterly screwed, but all three great devourers are by their nature not on friendly terms with one another. All out conflict to the death is assured.

Judging on their unique racial abilities and flaws, individual units' strengths and weaknesses, which side would eventually win?

Personally I root for the Tyranids. Everything they have is ridiculously overpowered compared to the other two forces. Plus with their Norn Queens they could manufacture reinforcements faster and in more plentiful quantities. Their main weakness that they shared with the Zerg is that their command structure is far more centralized than the Flood; several units acts as psychic synapses that is critical in the locusts' co-ordination and keeping them in control, losing one would which result in entire thousands of Tyranid troopers to lose focus and turn feral. But unlike the Zerg's cerebrate, the synapses are often superpowerful creatures like Zoanthropes or Hive Tyrants that could actually walk about and kill people on their own. And don't get me started with the Swarmlord unit.

Either way... It might be the most epic battle ever.

[avatarxprime]

How is this even a remotely fair fight? The Zerg are the poor man's Tyranids and will get stomped by their betters. As to the Flood, they're best attribute* is turning the enemy's infrastructure against them, since you placed them on an undefended UNSC world, they will have no weapons or tools to really use in a manner that is effective against the Nids as neither they nor the Zerg will be producing anything you can use against them. End result is the Nids eating everything there and then move on to do it all over again.

*Admittedly the Floods ability to utilize just about any biological matter around to produce more flood is rather nice, but against other bio-threats it would remain to be seen whether or not the Flood can infect and control them. If the Flood can, well that changes things quite a bit, but I would still believe the Tyranids come out on top in such a "Vampire vs Werewolf vs Zombie bite" style fight.

[SpaceMarine93]

Alright, modify scenario:

The UNSC world is a well defended world with an industrial base geared towards weapon manufacturing. Assume Flood could also use any biological matter. That should even up the scale. The Zerg are stronger than you think:

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Zerg

The zerg as a whole are extremely tough, tenacious, and deadly. Their natural armor and weaponry is comparable to modern technology in terms of toughness and armor-piercing capabilities. The zerg are extremely resistant to chemical agents,[18] but their biological nature still renders them vulnerable to concentrated radiation,[1] such as sigma radiation.[19]
All zerg strains are capable of operating in a variety of environments, including the vacuum of space.[20] Zerg must eat and rest, but do not require extended hours of sleep and have no set periods of inactivity.[11] Left unchecked, zerg multiply at an alarming rate.[21] Zerg do not die of old age.[19]


Most zerg ground strains are also capable of burrowing and digging through virtually any surface, using groups of tiny muscles that vibrate at a low frequency and grind dirt and stone along their way, allowing them to "swim through the ground".[19] This ability made them extremely deadly in ambush situations, as many terran or protoss forces suffered losses when suddenly being surrounded by a mass of enemy zerg units.[22] Zerg also tend to travel underground to attack enemies by surfacing a nydus worm.

Before hatching, a specimen has two cell types in general: Type A creates different mutations, while B cells hunt them to feed their own procreation (probably, the same is applied reversely). Upon hatching, the specimen of a certain strain is a result of the Darwin's theory of evolution on a cellular level; it is made of the strongest strain mutations that survived.[19]

Zerg possess remarkable regenerative capabilities. Their alpha amino acids possess unique R groups that allow dead cell matter to be combined with normal proteins to create new cells. Under normal circumstances, zerg may regenerate indefinitely; a radically changing cell structure is a by-product of the process, as well as high quantity of energy in the process.[19] Given time, even a gravely wounded zerg will return to full health. Thus, a zerg colony remains viable if even one creature or structure survives.[1] Few zerg survive for more than a few minutes in a given battle, but those that do evolve during the battle itself, becoming more powerful every hour.[23] The zerg constantly study their enemies and adapt accordingly.[24]

Zerg structures are essentially giant organs and draw sustenance from creep, a thick carpet-like substance that integrates a colony's structures as one macro-organism.[1]

Like terrans and protoss, zerg genetic material consists of DNA,[25] seemingly in the shape of a double helix.[22] However, when a zerg strain's DNA evolves, it becomes less flexible.[16]

The zerg like to pit themselves against harsh climates, using a planet's harsh conditions to further their own evolution.[26] In regards to assimilating the genetic material of other species, the zerg were initially very selective, assimilating only strong species at the top of their food chains and erradicating 'lesser species' lest they corrupt the purity of the zerg genome.[1] Under Kerrigan, the situation changed, and the zerg were willing to assimilate any material they came across.[26]

PsychologyEdit
"I used to think that defeating the Zerg would take precise military maneuvers, clever tactics and strong leadership. I was wrong. You can't out-think the swarm, you can't out-maneuver the swarm, and you certainly can't break the morale of the swarm. I hate to admit this, but I could do my job just as well if I ordered all my men to simply shoot anything that moves."
- Colonel Ronald Jackson(src)

A hydralisk brain
It has been difficult for observers to determine the full extent of the zerg intelligence, but it is clear that they are a very cunning species, and they are capable of higher reasoning. Although they do not utilize technology, they demonstrate a clear understanding of it, and have been known to open airlocks and doorways in colonies that they have raided. As a group they also react intelligently to attacks and are adept at tactical combat. On an individual basis, though, the zerg seem to be hardly more than savage animals with little or no concern for self-preservation.[18]
The amount of control exerted over a zerg force also impacts on their intelligence.[1] Without this control, the zerg will become little more than animals, attacking everything on sight,[27] at times, even their own kind.[28]

Zerg have the ability to sense psychic power[29] and, being sensitive to it, often respond to it[30] (to the point of rendering themselves temporarily out of the control of a leader)[31] and seek it out.[32][33] This ability has a greater range than that of wranglers, weakly psychic terrans employed to find other psychics.[34]

Zerg can be "lobotomized" to lose contact with the Zerg Swarm. The Terran Dominion conducted this experiment as early as 2500, using zerglings to seek psychic terrans.[34]

[Sea Skimmer]

What advantage would Tyranids not have? Seems like the easiest way to look at this, and I cannot think of anything really. They were after all written to be near the end all of swarm races in a universe known for its illogical extremes good and bad, while the other twos abilities were more story driven.

[Imperial528]

*Admittedly the Floods ability to utilize just about any biological matter around to produce more flood is rather nice, but against other bio-threats it would remain to be seen whether or not the Flood can infect and control them. If the Flood can, well that changes things quite a bit, but I would still believe the Tyranids come out on top in such a "Vampire vs Werewolf vs Zombie bite" style fight.

Well the problem that the flood will have is that they work best with infecting sapient life forms. Whereas the majority of Zerg lifeforms (and probably tyranids too, but I'm not sure) barely think by themselves beyond "Thing moves, is not part of brood, kill it!". Select few non-cerebrate/Overmind strains are pretty intelligent but not up to any level that can be called sapience.

Even though the flood can use just plain biomass, they won't be able to make enough combat forms or pure forms to acquire enough biomass to make more, especially given how fragile they are and how the flood lacks any sort of industrial capability on its own.

I would like to note that the Zerg also have a tendency to use the enemy against itself, see infested Terrans. And the Tyranids do as well with things like genestealers I believe.

In the case of Tyranids vs. Zerg I think the Zerg would lose in any strategic sense, in that to stay alive their best chance would be to just keep planet hoping and staying ahead of the Tyranids, or outright leaving the galaxy altogether. They would likely also lose in almost all tactical engagements, simply because the Tyranids can bring much more to bear in terms of resources and their respective biowank.

[Shroom Man 777]

Would that Tyrannid "shadow in the warp" thing be equivalent to a psi-disruptor? Would Tyrannid bio-psykery have an equivalent?

[Ahriman238]

Or, realizing how much they have in common being out to devour the entire hostile universe full of crunchy humans, they interbreed until their three hiveminds become one. Their physical forms and biotech are integrated with each other. Then they set out to devour the universe, and maybe add the Bugs, the other Bugs, the Ants, some of the better Vong crap...

All I'm saying is, give peace a chance.

[Imperial528]

I don't know the Tyranid's stance towards peace but I am sure that both the gravemind and the Overmind would try to "give peace a chance" and arrange a grand backstabbing at the moment most favorable, that is if they felt they needed to. Which given how pathetic the flood are I don't think that there would be a need for peace, at least on the Zerg side, since the flood would be more useful as genetic data.

Although I would like to note that IIRC the Zerg are not out to devour every lifeform. The original Overmind was programmed to do that (And they only chose life that was at the top of its food chain or showed promise) up until finding the Protoss, at which point it was to assimilate them and then the hybrids would kill/eat everything else. What the Zerg's goal post-Overmind is a mystery.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The zerg don't eat everything, but they DO incorporate new DNA codes into their mix. What happens when a hydralisk brings back a sample of Tyranid DNA for them tosstart experimenting with?

[Ryan Thunder]

It gives them all AIDS.

[Simon_Jester]

Or, realizing how much they have in common being out to devour the entire hostile universe full of crunchy humans, they interbreed until their three hiveminds become one. Their physical forms and biotech are integrated with each other. Then they set out to devour the universe, and maybe add the Bugs, the other Bugs, the Ants, some of the better Vong crap...

All I'm saying is, give peace a chance.

The Tyranids already have a mechanism for doing this, only their mechanism of "interbreeding and integrating" is to eat other things and assimilate their genetic code and physical components into new, "EVOLUTION COMPLETE" Tyranids.

The zerg don't eat everything, but they DO incorporate new DNA codes into their mix. What happens when a hydralisk brings back a sample of Tyranid DNA for them tosstart experimenting with?

The same thing that happens when a Termagant brings back a sample of Zerg DNA for the Tyranids to start experimenting with.

The two hives' DNA will gradually intermingle in the largest-scale bout of violent grudge sex in history.

And then they all get AIDS, yes.

[avatarxprime]

Alright, modify scenario:

The UNSC world is a well defended world with an industrial base geared towards weapon manufacturing. Assume Flood could also use any biological matter. That should even up the scale.

It's better for the Flood, assuming UNSC weapons can actually hurt Tyranids. Since they can deal with WH40K infantry weapons that's not guaranteed, but I think it's an all around more even situation if we assume they can.

The Zerg are stronger than you think: *snip Starcraft wikia entry*

I've read all the fluff before. It still goes down to the Zerg are only a threat to the level of technology demostrated in the SC universe. There are also instances like the Zergling getting killed, or at the very least knocked-out, by getting hit by a truck. You also have a simple grenade launcher (admittedly it could be more powerful than the grenades we use today) completely obliterating a Ling in the Brood War opening cinematic. Clearly, their endurance leaves something to be desired. There is also the issue of control, Kerrigan, a single human psychic, was able to assume control of the vast Zerg swarm. Now Kerrigan is an abnormally strong psychic in the SC verse, but nothing astoundingly powerful compared to the higher end WH40K psykers. So again, the Zerg are knock-off Tyranids and will be stomped by them as such.

Now others have posited that maybe the Tyranids and Zerg will end up merging together by virtue of DNA exchange and that seems to be an interesting proposal, but I question if the Zerg have anything the Nids would want. Still the idea of the Zerg and Nids becoming one race with the Flood then combining in with them until you get some super bio race would be interesting. Oddly enough, I think you'd end up with Orks. Zerg spores+Flood spores for setting up new territory and infecting all biomatter there. Spores eventually give way to carriers that can further the infection as they grow. Eventually you get combat forms, infrastructure, and a wholy infested planet. Even if you glass the place, so long as a spore survives it can begin all over again.

The zerg don't eat everything, but they DO incorporate new DNA codes into their mix. What happens when a hydralisk brings back a sample of Tyranid DNA for them tosstart experimenting with?

Well from the one instance of assimilation we do see in the the games, a few samples of DNA wouldn't do the trick for the Zerg. When they grabbed Kerrigan so they could get the psychic resistance needed to fight the Protoss (why no psychic Zerg in SC2 Blizzard?) it took quite a while for her to become part of the Swarm. Given that, the Zerg would need to capture an intact Tyranid to do their thing while I believe the Tyranids can do their assimilation thing without such restrictions. Someone more familiar with WH40K please correct me if I am mistaken.

[Srelex]

In regards to Zerg durability, we also have Zeglings apparently shrugging off repeated Gauss shots in some cutscenes, and in a recent trailer for Heart of the Swarm, we have an Ultralisk apparently shrugging off what looks like a high-explosive artillery shell. But then there are counter-examples, so I guess you can just thank Blizzard for its consistency.

[Imperial528]

Kerrigan was only able to take control of the swarm AFTER the Overmind had modified her to be able to, by enhancing her psychic abilities and integrating her with the swarm. And even then, she didn't have full control on her own, she still required cerebrates to control the other broods.

The ability to control Zerg is never really given any explanation by the game-level fluff and while psychic abilities are involved it seems to me that it is much easier to disrupt the link than it is to actually control the Zerg by breaking an existing link and creating a new one.