Let suppose that shortly after the Primarchs get teleported somewhere else, and the God-Emperor was just about to embark on the Great Crusade in M30 when he received a psychic message sent by his future crippled self from late M41.
It shows, much to his horror, how his future plans for Humanity and the galaxy goes horribly wrong - among them the mistakes that caused the future Traitor Space Marine Legions and their Primarchs to rebel and fall to Chaos, the Horus Heresy and his own encasement on the Golden Throne, the Imperium he will forge soon falling into stagnation and superstition, the various looming threats from within, without and beyond that now pushes the Imperium to the brink of collapse and Mankind to darkness in late M41. With his future self dying, the message ends with a desperate plea to the young Emperor not to repeat the same mistakes.
Shaken but determined, he decides modify his plans a little to prevent the grimdark future he saw from occuring, starting with preventing the Horus Heresy, and then preparations made to ensure the Imperium does not fall into stagnation and superstition, even if he is gone, and long term plans to confront threats that the future Imperium will encounter...
So, what must Pre - Great Crusade God Emperor do to change the future, so his vision for Mankind to claim their rightful place in the Galaxy and defend itself against Xenos and Chaos go exactly as planned?
And suppose he succeeds, what would be the state of the Imperium in terms of society, culture, technology, military, governance and other areas in the thousands of years after the changes?
How much better would the Imperium fare against the other factions?
How would the other factions react (more interestingly, how would Ruinous Powers react to their plan suddenly falling to pieces)?
What would be the changed fates of the Emperor and the Primarchs?
Or is it that it makes no difference ultimately and that Mankind in the 40K universe is essentially f***ed either way...?
Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
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SpaceMarine93
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Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Life sucks and is probably meaningless, but that doesn't mean there's no reason to be good.
--- The Anti-Nihilist view in short.
--- The Anti-Nihilist view in short.
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Eleventh Century Remnant
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
The more I think about this myself, the more I come to the conclusion that the mistakes that caused the Horus Heresy were not mistakes as such, they were character flaws- things he couldn't help doing any more than he could help the length of his stride.
He psychologically congealed long ago, some time during the Dark Age, in the role of patriarch- for a being who claimed he wasn't a god, he seems to have been inexorably destined for it whether he wanted it or not. He's the All-Father, and a lousy father in person because of that- he cannot see the trees for the wood, looks past the detail in front of him to the big picture, the individual in front of him to the mass of humanity, every time.
All right, a lot of this is coming from and rooted in way, way back first edition fluff shortly after they'd decided the Heresy had happened- but he took the defence of Humanity on himself, instead of trusting his sons with some of the burden.
This was, however, inevitable. Consider the length of his life, some thirty- eight millennia at this point; the overwhelming bulk of everyone he ever knew in a very long and active existence are long since gone. Only humanity persists. People don't, individuals are only part of the greater whole.
It's surprising he manages to be as human as he is, in fact, but the old habits die hard. Everone else is temporary, he's the only constant in his world, it's down to him to carry the burden because there is nobody else. Even once, and by his own hand, there is.
Every individual fragment of the greater whole is also so much lesser than he is, too- how much load can he place on them? How much thinking can they really be expected to do for themselves? They won't see as clearly, or think as broadly, or understand as deeply.
The roots of the Heresy resolve down to his trying to do almost all of the important part himself, of not trusting his children with the intelligence of what was really happening in the universe, of the existence of chaos and the nature of the Warp- leaving them, mighty though they were, with holes in their psyches where a father's love should have been, and woefully unprepared to meet Chaos' attack on them. And it was like this because of who the Emperor was, not any specific act.
His own future self may be the only being in the universe capable of convincing him that he got it wrong and has to change- but I'm not convinced that's the solution the man in the golden throne would offer to the great crusader.
Press on, is more likely to be the watchword, on through toil and stress, blood and fire, determination and persistence the answer to all problems; press on. Even if he understood his own faults, I think he would still be blind to them.
Perhaps the anti- Chaos apparatus, technical and institutional, of the latterday Imperium may get an earlier start; the Inquisition founded at the start of the Great Crusade, instead of during the Heresy.
The vision for Mankind will inevitably fail, because it is not based on reality; dubious as it may be to call the Warp and it's contents reality, it is a factor that absolutely has to be taken into account. It might actually be worse.
Imagine a world raised in the Imperial Truth, whose skies suddenly split open to reveal the nightmares formed from raw soul- stuff of the hordes of Chaos- imagine the confusion, the fear, the truth of the horrors revealed by the very methods of the Truth, the loss of confidence, the utter devastation wreaked on an unprepared world, eventually an unprepared galaxy.
A well argued, well reasoned, scientifically established truth about a bizarre and horrible situation doesn't cease to be true for being eldritch, or unnatural for being true. The Ruinous Powers would have other avenues of attack, and would use them.
He psychologically congealed long ago, some time during the Dark Age, in the role of patriarch- for a being who claimed he wasn't a god, he seems to have been inexorably destined for it whether he wanted it or not. He's the All-Father, and a lousy father in person because of that- he cannot see the trees for the wood, looks past the detail in front of him to the big picture, the individual in front of him to the mass of humanity, every time.
All right, a lot of this is coming from and rooted in way, way back first edition fluff shortly after they'd decided the Heresy had happened- but he took the defence of Humanity on himself, instead of trusting his sons with some of the burden.
This was, however, inevitable. Consider the length of his life, some thirty- eight millennia at this point; the overwhelming bulk of everyone he ever knew in a very long and active existence are long since gone. Only humanity persists. People don't, individuals are only part of the greater whole.
It's surprising he manages to be as human as he is, in fact, but the old habits die hard. Everone else is temporary, he's the only constant in his world, it's down to him to carry the burden because there is nobody else. Even once, and by his own hand, there is.
Every individual fragment of the greater whole is also so much lesser than he is, too- how much load can he place on them? How much thinking can they really be expected to do for themselves? They won't see as clearly, or think as broadly, or understand as deeply.
The roots of the Heresy resolve down to his trying to do almost all of the important part himself, of not trusting his children with the intelligence of what was really happening in the universe, of the existence of chaos and the nature of the Warp- leaving them, mighty though they were, with holes in their psyches where a father's love should have been, and woefully unprepared to meet Chaos' attack on them. And it was like this because of who the Emperor was, not any specific act.
His own future self may be the only being in the universe capable of convincing him that he got it wrong and has to change- but I'm not convinced that's the solution the man in the golden throne would offer to the great crusader.
Press on, is more likely to be the watchword, on through toil and stress, blood and fire, determination and persistence the answer to all problems; press on. Even if he understood his own faults, I think he would still be blind to them.
Perhaps the anti- Chaos apparatus, technical and institutional, of the latterday Imperium may get an earlier start; the Inquisition founded at the start of the Great Crusade, instead of during the Heresy.
The vision for Mankind will inevitably fail, because it is not based on reality; dubious as it may be to call the Warp and it's contents reality, it is a factor that absolutely has to be taken into account. It might actually be worse.
Imagine a world raised in the Imperial Truth, whose skies suddenly split open to reveal the nightmares formed from raw soul- stuff of the hordes of Chaos- imagine the confusion, the fear, the truth of the horrors revealed by the very methods of the Truth, the loss of confidence, the utter devastation wreaked on an unprepared world, eventually an unprepared galaxy.
A well argued, well reasoned, scientifically established truth about a bizarre and horrible situation doesn't cease to be true for being eldritch, or unnatural for being true. The Ruinous Powers would have other avenues of attack, and would use them.
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Actually, sticking to his guns might have worked better, at least slightly better- if he'd stuck to his guns when Horus was trying to kill him, by all evidence he'd still be alive and hale in the 41st millenium. And for all the faults in the Imperial Truth, the God-Emperor would have made a far better government than what replaced him, and probably avoided many of the worst systematic abuses that characterized the post-Heresy Imperium.
Simple bad government, and the near-absolute power granted to the higher-ranking lords of the Imperium, make the situation so much worse than it has to be. Look at things like the Badab War- an individual 'prince' of the feudal system that runs the Imperium of Man goes mad with power, runs off the rails, and robs humanity of a couple of battlefleets and two or three chapters' worth of valuable Astartes in the process. Or the systematic, grinding oppression that makes working and living conditions in the Imperium so horrible- and in the process probably doubles the number of Nurgle cultists, from despair, and Slaanesh cultists, from the desire for distraction.
The God-Emperor could probably cut down on that a great deal while hardly even trying- not just because his personal leadership would be effective at pruning the worst bits of the system, but because say what you will about him, he was good at imbuing people with the sense that they were fighting for something worth the effort. The words coming out of his mouth about the greater good of humanity were believed by so many of his followers, and he did everything within his formidable power to make them come true, subject only to the limits of his character...
Compare that to the High Lords of Terra, or to someone like Vandire who a living Emperor wouldn't have deemed fit to polish his armor, and it beggars the imagination how much the Imperium could have achieved if he'd kept running it, even if he had to struggle through the Heresy and its aftermath.
You'd still see an Imperium embattled by its enemies and struggling to keep up with slow communications and transport, but I think it would be a much better place to live in, and a good deal stronger.
Simple bad government, and the near-absolute power granted to the higher-ranking lords of the Imperium, make the situation so much worse than it has to be. Look at things like the Badab War- an individual 'prince' of the feudal system that runs the Imperium of Man goes mad with power, runs off the rails, and robs humanity of a couple of battlefleets and two or three chapters' worth of valuable Astartes in the process. Or the systematic, grinding oppression that makes working and living conditions in the Imperium so horrible- and in the process probably doubles the number of Nurgle cultists, from despair, and Slaanesh cultists, from the desire for distraction.
The God-Emperor could probably cut down on that a great deal while hardly even trying- not just because his personal leadership would be effective at pruning the worst bits of the system, but because say what you will about him, he was good at imbuing people with the sense that they were fighting for something worth the effort. The words coming out of his mouth about the greater good of humanity were believed by so many of his followers, and he did everything within his formidable power to make them come true, subject only to the limits of his character...
Compare that to the High Lords of Terra, or to someone like Vandire who a living Emperor wouldn't have deemed fit to polish his armor, and it beggars the imagination how much the Imperium could have achieved if he'd kept running it, even if he had to struggle through the Heresy and its aftermath.
You'd still see an Imperium embattled by its enemies and struggling to keep up with slow communications and transport, but I think it would be a much better place to live in, and a good deal stronger.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
I'm not sure if even the emperor could micromanage the whole imperium by himself. I think whatever happens he's going to have to delegate, the very nature of warp travel means that most worlds are weeks or months at the least apart from each other, the emperor may be able to reduce that but he cant do anything. The emperor did seem to be working on creating / reopening a human bases web way which would reduce the problem alot but that itself seemed to have problems i.e. the demons breaking into the throneroom when Magnus messed up (although with warning the emperor could stop that but it seems a rather fragile system).Simon_Jester wrote:Actually, sticking to his guns might have worked better, at least slightly better- if he'd stuck to his guns when Horus was trying to kill him, by all evidence he'd still be alive and hale in the 41st millenium. And for all the faults in the Imperial Truth, the God-Emperor would have made a far better government than what replaced him, and probably avoided many of the worst systematic abuses that characterized the post-Heresy Imperium.
Simple bad government, and the near-absolute power granted to the higher-ranking lords of the Imperium, make the situation so much worse than it has to be. Look at things like the Badab War- an individual 'prince' of the feudal system that runs the Imperium of Man goes mad with power, runs off the rails, and robs humanity of a couple of battlefleets and two or three chapters' worth of valuable Astartes in the process. Or the systematic, grinding oppression that makes working and living conditions in the Imperium so horrible- and in the process probably doubles the number of Nurgle cultists, from despair, and Slaanesh cultists, from the desire for distraction.
The God-Emperor could probably cut down on that a great deal while hardly even trying- not just because his personal leadership would be effective at pruning the worst bits of the system, but because say what you will about him, he was good at imbuing people with the sense that they were fighting for something worth the effort. The words coming out of his mouth about the greater good of humanity were believed by so many of his followers, and he did everything within his formidable power to make them come true, subject only to the limits of his character...
Compare that to the High Lords of Terra, or to someone like Vandire who a living Emperor wouldn't have deemed fit to polish his armor, and it beggars the imagination how much the Imperium could have achieved if he'd kept running it, even if he had to struggle through the Heresy and its aftermath.
You'd still see an Imperium embattled by its enemies and struggling to keep up with slow communications and transport, but I think it would be a much better place to live in, and a good deal stronger.
If the heresy doesn't progress as normal chaos is going to keep trying and their going to succeed at some level sooner or later. In the 'moden' imperium there are multiple over laping commands and limits on authority to limit what one individual can do which it might help to introduce earlier, however, I dont think the Primarchs would go for that which would open another weak point for Chaos.
To be honest getting rid of the Primarchs may be one of the easiest way to deal with the coming heresy, they are two strong and to charasmatic if one falls they pull to much of the Imperiums forces with them.
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
I'm quite sure he couldn't. What he could do, if he knew it was necessary, was police the Imperium's high-level satraps to keep them from becoming too corrupt, deal with large-scale running sores before they got out of control (there are plenty of stories of the Emperor's personal command allowing him to subdue entire planets and powerful armies in short order), secure the loyalty of the people he needed most critically, and so on.Bedlam wrote:I'm not sure if even the emperor could micromanage the whole imperium by himself.
In short, the Imperium would still have to become somewhat more decentralized, and there would be constant struggles to hold things together. But an active, dynamic man who sees the big picture at the top and has great physical and mental ability to back his vision up would keep the system from becoming such a shambles.
Thing is, he needs the Space Marine legions.To be honest getting rid of the Primarchs may be one of the easiest way to deal with the coming heresy, they are two strong and to charasmatic if one falls they pull to much of the Imperiums forces with them.
What might work well is if he simply instituted something like the division of military power seen in the post-Heresy era- the Primarchs have personal command of their legions and whatever minimum naval forces are needed to ferry them around, but regular human troops are commanded separately... I don't know.
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Eternal_Freedom
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Couldn't the Emperor get rid of the nine traitor Primarchs? Even if their Legions rebel they will be leaderless and hence much easier to subdue. And they won't have fallen to Chaos either, they'll just be renegades.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
"Father ! Why are you turning against me ? Have I not served you faithfully, have I not bled and fought for you, subjugated whole worlds to your Truth ? Have I not sacrificed enough for you ? TELL ME FATHER ! WHAT HAVE I DONE ?"Eternal_Freedom wrote:Couldn't the Emperor get rid of the nine traitor Primarchs? Even if their Legions rebel they will be leaderless and hence much easier to subdue. And they won't have fallen to Chaos either, they'll just be renegades.
"Nothing.
You have done nothing to wrong me, my son. It not for what you have done but for what you might do that I have to end you.
You do not know of it, but someday you will take arms against me and my Imperium. At the end of it I will be but a dying corpse unable to direct my people. The consequences will be ten thousands years of barbary and the betrayal of everything my Imperium stand for.
[beat]
I am sorry, my son. For Mankind to live, you have to die."
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"Father, why did you kill our brother ?"
"Because he was susceptible to fall the false promises of Chaos."
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[New Primarchs resent the betrayal of their father, fearing for their own lives, and fall vulnerable to the temptation of the Chaos Gods]
Yep. Seems like a perfect plan. What could ever go wrong ?
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
If the Emperor really wanted to go that way, he'd probably kill the Primarchs out of hand early- as in, when he first encounters them. Still, though, I doubt it would be that effective; it's not obvious to me that the Primarchs who didn't betray him were really all that different from some of the ones who did.
It would also help if he could warn the more reliable Primarchs- Guilliman, Dorn, Vulkan, Russ, and so on: "I have had a vision- you and your legions, brother against brother, played off against each other by forces unseen. I will help you, but you must ready yourselves- if one of your brothers begins acting strangely, report it to me at once, that I may set him back on his proper course."
What Rabid said- but also, several of the Primarchs wouldn't have turned in the first place if the Emperor had paid some damn attention. Magnus was literally only trying to help, several nursed grudges the Emperor could end with a single conversation... a few like Angron and Fulgrim needed to be smacked down, hard. But if he'd exercised even a little more care, I suspect the Emperor could have turned the split among the Primarchs to something less like nine against nine, to more like twelve against six or thirteen against five.Eternal_Freedom wrote:Couldn't the Emperor get rid of the nine traitor Primarchs? Even if their Legions rebel they will be leaderless and hence much easier to subdue. And they won't have fallen to Chaos either, they'll just be renegades.
It would also help if he could warn the more reliable Primarchs- Guilliman, Dorn, Vulkan, Russ, and so on: "I have had a vision- you and your legions, brother against brother, played off against each other by forces unseen. I will help you, but you must ready yourselves- if one of your brothers begins acting strangely, report it to me at once, that I may set him back on his proper course."
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
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lordofchange13
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
His the God-Emperoress just started out and told his children about the ruinous powers a lot of the problems that lead to the Heresy would be averted. He kept the existence of magic and gods from the Primarchs and the Imperial population, if he instead just came out and explained how Chaos could manipulate them then they would be a whole lot less lily to rebel. All of life's problems can be solved with Tolerance, Love, and Trust!
"There is no such thing as coincidence in this world - there is only inevitability"
"I consider the Laws of Thermodynamics a loose guideline at best!"
"Set Flamethrowers to... light electrocution"
It's not enough to bash in heads, you also have to bash in minds.
Tired is the Roman wielding the Aquila.
"I consider the Laws of Thermodynamics a loose guideline at best!"
"Set Flamethrowers to... light electrocution"
It's not enough to bash in heads, you also have to bash in minds.
Tired is the Roman wielding the Aquila.
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Purple
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
@Simon_Jester
And than the voices in their head start whispering: Father does not trust you. He has you watch the others, but they are watching you too. Maybe he thinks you the traitor? Or maybe he trusts no one at all? Is such a father truly worth your loyalty?
And we have the good guys cracking instead.
And than the voices in their head start whispering: Father does not trust you. He has you watch the others, but they are watching you too. Maybe he thinks you the traitor? Or maybe he trusts no one at all? Is such a father truly worth your loyalty?
And we have the good guys cracking instead.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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jollyreaper
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
If I recall the fluff correctly, the Chaos Gods are all the result of a space elf screw-up. They originate from the Eldar but draw energy from the warp which is contributed to by all living creatures so they're equal opportunity plagues upon the living.
Well, the point that the Emperor can't control everything himself is well-taken and I personally am of the preference of thinking he's really dead in his golden throne and that everything he's allegedly doing at this point like the astronomicon is just running on autopilot. Voltaire said if God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him and the Empire of Man needs a god-emperor to have faith in since the Abrahamic God is laughably outclassed by the chaos gods. A god-emperor is something to believe in.
So my thought is that if the god-emperor did not die, he might very well set about trying to create his own version of chaos gods, but ones attuned to positive traits instead of negative ones. Personally I've always felt that settings that have hell dimensions and devils and demons but no corresponding representation of the other side seem a bit unbalanced. My favorite take on this is that too much of either one is not good. Too much chaos and destruction is of course bad but too much order can lead to stasis.
Now being a grimdark world, the human gods would not be all smiles and sunshine. They would represent stern and uncompromising order. If you have chaos gods of magic, violence, disease and pleasure, then there would likely be order gods of wisdom/learning, martial prowess/duty, healing/creation and discipline/self-possession.
If the virtuous powers give the Imperium sufficient advantage, the full grimdark would be the humans having a good stab at conquering the galaxy. The other thread about what would happen if the Imperium had no enemies likely had the right answer -- civil war. This would be the scenario the god-emperor feels helpless to avert. So he's stuck in the difficult position of prolonging the galactic wars and all that suffering in order to prevent accidentally winning and ushering in the civil war.
This might be even more grimdark than the current scenario. Right now everything sucks because there's a lot of evil out there and humans have to be all bastardy to counter it. If they have a god-emperor and order gods, now things are all grimdark because the god-emperor is deliberately making it so.
Well, the point that the Emperor can't control everything himself is well-taken and I personally am of the preference of thinking he's really dead in his golden throne and that everything he's allegedly doing at this point like the astronomicon is just running on autopilot. Voltaire said if God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him and the Empire of Man needs a god-emperor to have faith in since the Abrahamic God is laughably outclassed by the chaos gods. A god-emperor is something to believe in.
So my thought is that if the god-emperor did not die, he might very well set about trying to create his own version of chaos gods, but ones attuned to positive traits instead of negative ones. Personally I've always felt that settings that have hell dimensions and devils and demons but no corresponding representation of the other side seem a bit unbalanced. My favorite take on this is that too much of either one is not good. Too much chaos and destruction is of course bad but too much order can lead to stasis.
Now being a grimdark world, the human gods would not be all smiles and sunshine. They would represent stern and uncompromising order. If you have chaos gods of magic, violence, disease and pleasure, then there would likely be order gods of wisdom/learning, martial prowess/duty, healing/creation and discipline/self-possession.
If the virtuous powers give the Imperium sufficient advantage, the full grimdark would be the humans having a good stab at conquering the galaxy. The other thread about what would happen if the Imperium had no enemies likely had the right answer -- civil war. This would be the scenario the god-emperor feels helpless to avert. So he's stuck in the difficult position of prolonging the galactic wars and all that suffering in order to prevent accidentally winning and ushering in the civil war.
This might be even more grimdark than the current scenario. Right now everything sucks because there's a lot of evil out there and humans have to be all bastardy to counter it. If they have a god-emperor and order gods, now things are all grimdark because the god-emperor is deliberately making it so.
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
What LoC13 said.Purple wrote:@Simon_Jester
And than the voices in their head start whispering: Father does not trust you. He has you watch the others, but they are watching you too. Maybe he thinks you the traitor? Or maybe he trusts no one at all? Is such a father truly worth your loyalty?
And we have the good guys cracking instead.
The point is that the Emperor could have greatly reduced the scale of the Heresy and limited the damage by being even a little more savvy and alert of the warning signs. He's not dumb, he's actually quite good at leadership when he cares to be; the problem is basically that he abandoned his children to run his war effort for him and didn't check up on them or alert them at all to what they might run into.
That strategy failed, decisively. It would not take much to come up with a better one.
You can say the Heresy was predestined, and I'm sure that those events, with the Chaos Primarchs and so on, were bound to happen in the fullness of time. But that doesn't mean it was inevitably going to be as bad as it was.
Slaanesh, definitely, but the others? I don't know.jollyreaper wrote:If I recall the fluff correctly, the Chaos Gods are all the result of a space elf screw-up. They originate from the Eldar but draw energy from the warp which is contributed to by all living creatures so they're equal opportunity plagues upon the living.
As to the rest- remember, we're talking about the Emperor as ruler, not as deity. I don't think he ever intended man to have gods- simply 'creating' gods of order to oppose those of chaos doesn't sound like his plan. My impression is that the goal was to make humanity largely independent of the Warp (hence the effort to create a webway), and hopefully to confer upon mankind the innate psychic resilience needed to be a functioning species in the galaxy without reliance on superstition.
Well, the point that the Emperor can't control everything himself is well-taken and I personally am of the preference of thinking he's really dead in his golden throne and that everything he's allegedly doing at this point like the astronomicon is just running on autopilot. Voltaire said if God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him and the Empire of Man needs a god-emperor to have faith in since the Abrahamic God is laughably outclassed by the chaos gods. A god-emperor is something to believe in.
So my thought is that if the god-emperor did not die, he might very well set about trying to create his own version of chaos gods, but ones attuned to positive traits instead of negative ones. Personally I've always felt that settings that have hell dimensions and devils and demons but no corresponding representation of the other side seem a bit unbalanced. My favorite take on this is that too much of either one is not good. Too much chaos and destruction is of course bad but too much order can lead to stasis.
Now being a grimdark world, the human gods would not be all smiles and sunshine. They would represent stern and uncompromising order. If you have chaos gods of magic, violence, disease and pleasure, then there would likely be order gods of wisdom/learning, martial prowess/duty, healing/creation and discipline/self-possession.
If the virtuous powers give the Imperium sufficient advantage, the full grimdark would be the humans having a good stab at conquering the galaxy. The other thread about what would happen if the Imperium had no enemies likely had the right answer -- civil war. This would be the scenario the god-emperor feels helpless to avert. So he's stuck in the difficult position of prolonging the galactic wars and all that suffering in order to prevent accidentally winning and ushering in the civil war.
This might be even more grimdark than the current scenario. Right now everything sucks because there's a lot of evil out there and humans have to be all bastardy to counter it. If they have a god-emperor and order gods, now things are all grimdark because the god-emperor is deliberately making it so.[/quote]
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Here's a question. The Eldar appears to be much more immune to the seduction of Chaos than humans are.
Is this true? If so, how could the Emperor have co-opted this?
Is this true? If so, how could the Emperor have co-opted this?
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
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Simon_Jester
- Emperor's Hand
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
[Looks up]
Whoops. I got so busy typing my response I forgot to trim out the tail of jollyreaper's post...
PainRack, many of the Eldar strategies would be hard to apply to humans without drastically changing human nature... which suggests that this may actually have been what the Emperor had in mind in the long run. Basically, the Eldar live very long lives, but continuously shift their activities and interests in life, to avoid building up mental habits that would make it easy for Chaos to prey on them. They also work very hard to minimize the passions... on the other hand, they seem to be pretty good about not actively abusing other Eldar, which reduces the incentive Chaos can offer people as a way of ending their suffering.
The real problem I perceive is that the Emperor may well not have grasped what was going on here- it's not clear to me how much he knew about how Chaos really worked, and how to fight it, and how much he kept secret.
Whoops. I got so busy typing my response I forgot to trim out the tail of jollyreaper's post...
PainRack, many of the Eldar strategies would be hard to apply to humans without drastically changing human nature... which suggests that this may actually have been what the Emperor had in mind in the long run. Basically, the Eldar live very long lives, but continuously shift their activities and interests in life, to avoid building up mental habits that would make it easy for Chaos to prey on them. They also work very hard to minimize the passions... on the other hand, they seem to be pretty good about not actively abusing other Eldar, which reduces the incentive Chaos can offer people as a way of ending their suffering.
The real problem I perceive is that the Emperor may well not have grasped what was going on here- it's not clear to me how much he knew about how Chaos really worked, and how to fight it, and how much he kept secret.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Being less of a dick towards the Word Bearers and their perfect city? That would prevent them from falling to Chaos and by extent, the corruption of Horus. That would prevent the Heresy as we know it anyway.SpaceMarine93 wrote: So, what must Pre - Great Crusade God Emperor do to change the future, so his vision for Mankind to claim their rightful place in the Galaxy and defend itself against Xenos and Chaos go exactly as planned?
Would it make a difference in the long run? I don't know. Too many variables, but the fact that the Imperium (bar the Emperor) was mostly oblivious about Chaos, is probably making hem a better target for corruption so the civil war may have been inevitable.
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Simon_Jester
- Emperor's Hand
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Again, I think it would be likely for the Emperor to take some effective countermeasures to limit the scope of any civil war that might occur. It would surely still happen, but by being even a little more careful to keep an eye on his sons, or giving them even a little warning, he could probably reduce the scope of the problem into something partly manageable.
You'd still see a decline of the Imperium from its moments of highest glory right before the Heresy, but it wouldn't take on such a stark and irreversible character.
You'd still see a decline of the Imperium from its moments of highest glory right before the Heresy, but it wouldn't take on such a stark and irreversible character.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
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Temjin
- Jedi Council Member
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- Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Was the Emperor really being a dick though? I thought his reprimand mostly consisted of "Hey, do you think you could hurry up with that conquering business? The galaxy is kind of big, and it won't conquer it's self. Oh, could you also worship me less? It's getting kind of weird."wautd wrote:Being less of a dick towards the Word Bearers and their perfect city? That would prevent them from falling to Chaos and by extent, the corruption of Horus. That would prevent the Heresy as we know it anyway.
Would it make a difference in the long run? I don't know. Too many variables, but the fact that the Imperium (bar the Emperor) was mostly oblivious about Chaos, is probably making hem a better target for corruption so the civil war may have been inevitable.
Lorgar just took this really badly because it was if his god personally slapped him down.
I don't think the Word Bearer's corruption could be avoided. Lorgars mind was just too susceptible to it. If it wasn't that specific criticism that did it, it would've been another,
"A mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open."
-Sir James Dewar
Life should have a soundtrack.
-Sir James Dewar
Life should have a soundtrack.
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SpaceMarine93
- Jedi Knight
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Oooh, this would be interesting...Purple wrote:@Simon_Jester
And than the voices in their head start whispering: Father does not trust you. He has you watch the others, but they are watching you too. Maybe he thinks you the traitor? Or maybe he trusts no one at all? Is such a father truly worth your loyalty?
And we have the good guys cracking instead.
Life sucks and is probably meaningless, but that doesn't mean there's no reason to be good.
--- The Anti-Nihilist view in short.
--- The Anti-Nihilist view in short.
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KhorneFlakes
- Padawan Learner
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
It should also be mentioned that one of Angron's primary reasons for being an angry bastard who murderises people and doesn't give a shit was because teh EMPRAH, (who is a dick) teleported him away from his comrades and let them get slaughtered. That ruined any kind of relationship the Emprah had with him to begin with. This kind of stuff was why many of the Primarch's who turned to KAYOSS didn't like the Emprah.
But hell, reading one of the posts, maybe the Emprah isn't a dick. Maybe his extreme lifespan and time around other people, and eventually outliving them too has made him think that only he can be relied to finish what has to be done. Maybe somewhere along the line he ironically disconnected himself from humanity, because he felt sorrow at how everyone he had met eventually died and he didn't. He's still human, after all - albiet one with godlike psykery and stuff. Even so, I still say he's a dick. But at least going from this new interpretation, he isn't a psychopathic dick.
But hell, reading one of the posts, maybe the Emprah isn't a dick. Maybe his extreme lifespan and time around other people, and eventually outliving them too has made him think that only he can be relied to finish what has to be done. Maybe somewhere along the line he ironically disconnected himself from humanity, because he felt sorrow at how everyone he had met eventually died and he didn't. He's still human, after all - albiet one with godlike psykery and stuff. Even so, I still say he's a dick. But at least going from this new interpretation, he isn't a psychopathic dick.
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Black Admiral
- Jedi Council Member
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
The thing is of course that we don't know why the Emperor acted as he did in retrieving Angron. We do know he's not prone to being a dick just for the sake of it; otherwise he'd not have gotten on nearly so well with, for instance, Corax (who, even as an infant, tended to react badly to someone acting like a dick for no reason), so there's presumably a reason he just snatched Angron out of things rather than taking a hand in another way. And we run into the problem that the only description of their meeting we've got comes from Angron, who is, ah, less than stable, shall we say, and honestly can't be considered reliable.
Certainly wasn't a very bright move on Emps' part, of course, that's hard to get around (and much less suited for getting a positive relationship going there than how he retrieved most of the other Primarchs).
Certainly wasn't a very bright move on Emps' part, of course, that's hard to get around (and much less suited for getting a positive relationship going there than how he retrieved most of the other Primarchs).
"I do not say the French cannot come. I only say they cannot come by sea." - Admiral Lord St. Vincent, Royal Navy, during the Napoleonic Wars
"Show me a general who has made no mistakes and you speak of a general who has seldom waged war." - Marshal Turenne, 1641
"Show me a general who has made no mistakes and you speak of a general who has seldom waged war." - Marshal Turenne, 1641
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jollyreaper
- Jedi Master
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- Joined: 2010-06-28 10:19pm
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
The fluff goes back and forth about how the emperor came about in the first place. Didn't like the suicidal shaman idea. But if not that, he could be a natural mutation. Could he be repeated? Replicated?
One thought could be that there have been many psykers with the potential for that kind of power and they've been fed to the golden throne. In this case, the Imperium is rigorously gimping themselves.
One thought could be that there have been many psykers with the potential for that kind of power and they've been fed to the golden throne. In this case, the Imperium is rigorously gimping themselves.
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Sidewinder
- Sith Acolyte
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- Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
- Contact:
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Fabius Bile certainly thinks so.jollyreaper wrote:The fluff goes back and forth about how the emperor came about in the first place. Didn't like the suicidal shaman idea. But if not that, he could be a natural mutation. Could he be repeated? Replicated?
[quote="Lexicanum article on the Blood Angel "Rafen""]Bile, lost in grandeur, explained to Rafen his plan to clone none other than the Emperor himself.[/quote]
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
I like this idea. One wonders why the Emperor even bothered with humanity. Why build a space empire? Why not just go out into the deep to think what gods think about? Whatever the reason was, I doubt it was compassion and love. The Emperor doesn't strike me as a person who felt much of either.But hell, reading one of the posts, maybe the Emprah isn't a dick. Maybe his extreme lifespan and time around other people, and eventually outliving them too has made him think that only he can be relied to finish what has to be done. Maybe somewhere along the line he ironically disconnected himself from humanity, because he felt sorrow at how everyone he had met eventually died and he didn't. He's still human, after all - albiet one with godlike psykery and stuff. Even so, I still say he's a dick. But at least going from this new interpretation, he isn't a psychopathic dick.
Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
The Emperor as been birthed by the sacrifice of ten thousands shamans, who sacrificed themselves and fused their souls into one being in order to save Mankind from the perils of Chaos. His very soul is born from the senses of responsibility and self-sacrifice toward Humanity as a whole.
If Mankind Fall, not only will his life lose its very purpose, not only will he have Failed in his Mission ; this immortal being will be Alone. Forever and for all eternity. It is a terrifying prospect that would drive even the greatest minds to insanity.
Do not be confused : for the Emperor, the ultimate fate of humanity is not a second-thought. At the contrary it is a very personal matter.
If Mankind Fall, not only will his life lose its very purpose, not only will he have Failed in his Mission ; this immortal being will be Alone. Forever and for all eternity. It is a terrifying prospect that would drive even the greatest minds to insanity.
Do not be confused : for the Emperor, the ultimate fate of humanity is not a second-thought. At the contrary it is a very personal matter.
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Eternal_Freedom
- Castellan
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Re: Horus Heresy and events leading from it never happens
Ok then...what if he never bothered with the Primarchs and went straight to Space Marines? There would still be leaders but they would be merely superhuman, not demigods, and would IMHO be a lot less likely to think they could challenge the Emperor.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."
Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.