(DW/BG) What if the Colonials met the Cybermen?

[O Wildish]

I have some questions thats been bugging me for a few days, a sensible, what might happen if, this regards seperately, both 70s/80s Battlestar Galactica with 60s/80s Doctor Who and re-imaged 2003-2009 BG series with DW 2005-2011, please make your comments intresting and please be kind... oh and no Daleks.

Senario:
The Battlestar Galactica has found a drifting planet identical to Earh, except it is in the wrong location, a mysterious stranger called the Doctor turns up and warns them not to go to that planet, they ignore him, on the surface things seem lifeless however the landing party soon uncover an advanced underground city, meanwhile the fleet encounter a small fleet of unknown (alien) ships. The Doctor tell them that the ships come from the planet and it isn't Earth but Earth's lost twin planet... Mondas, on the surface the dreaded Cybermen reveal themselves and the horror of Cyber-Conversion...

Ok what I want is your opinions on how the Colonials and Cylons react to and feel towards the Cybermen and the Doctor (particularly to the Cybermen) how do you think this senario will end ???

[O Wildish]

What would be the psychological impact of this encounter be when they realize what the Cybermen are, Humans that have turned themselves into machine creatures who want to convert them as well to increase their number as opposed to the enemy, familiar the Cylons, machine creatures who are becomming more Human

(I admit I've posed this on various other sites but no one seems to get to the main point of the question, swamped by comparisons to Cylons or turning it into a straight Vs. match, not quite what I had in mind)

[Solauren]

From what I can recall, the Cybermen outclass the Cylons and Colonials by a comfortable margin.

Either the Colonials + Cylons work together and manage to hold off the Cybermen, or the Cybermen convert the lot of them, and maybe use the non-Skin job Cylons as work droids or something.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

The Cybermen certainly don't want for firepower, though precisely what they're capable of depends on which Cybermen in particular.

In 'Tomb of the Cybermen', the cybergun found in the testing room was described as an X-ray laser. Several of the earlier Cybermen incarnations were capable of killing or incapaciting humans by projecting electricity from their fingers. According to Atomic Rockets, around a kilojoule of output energy would be required to incapacitate a human (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/sidearmenergy.php). This also gives us a figure for the various cyberguns, which consistently one-shot human targets. The aforementioned example lists the penetration of such a weapon as being 15cm in bone or plastic, 5cm in brick or concrete, and 2.5cm in steel or most ceramics. Unless Colonial body armour happens to be made of something highly energy-resistant (by coincidence), then Cyberman weaponry should be one-shotting Colonial marines (questionable accuracy aside). A mitigating factor is that the Colonials have access to heavier weapons, and having fought the Cylons they would be carrying armour-piercing rounds as standard. It is unclear whether the latter would make much difference, but the former almost certainly would.

As for the high-end of Cyberman firepower, I have an example from Earthshock. Crashing an FTL-capable antimatter-powered freighter into Earth (the time travel was not intentional) was supposed to have a suitably similar effect to a Cyberbomb as to make it a worthwhile backup plan. The Doctor claimed that they had been sent back in time 65 million years and that the impact would wipe out the dinosaurs, essentially making it the Chicxulub impact. The only figure I could find for Chicxulub was the equivalent of 96 Teratons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_ ... te_note-20, under 'Impact Specifics', including citation).

Now that's all out of the way, the real argument. How the Colonials react to meeting the Cybermen depends to a considerable extent on who's in charge on the ground, and what their immediate priorities are. On the one hand, the Colonials have based a great deal of their identity on self-esteem on being flesh as opposed to machine (a means of psychologically rejecting and containing the Cylon threat), meaning they probably won't react well to a cybernetic race. On the other hand the Cybermen are sufficiently different to Cylons in appearance that whoever's in charge of the landing party might not shoot on sight. Roslin and Adama might seriously consider coming to some arrangement with the Cybermen if there's something in it for them, the most likely being a military alliance of some kind if they can convince the Cybermen that the Cylons are a threat.

Once again the issue of 'which Cybermen?' arises. The early incarnations of the Cybermen were relatively uninterested in cyber-conversion, and the original Mondasian cyberman in 'The Tenth Planet' only intend to do it so that the surviving humans can survive on Mondas. The Mondasians converted themselves in 'Spare Parts' in response to an impossible situation: they needed to alter Mondas' course to avoid a dangerous nebula and repair the city roof, but didn't have enough power to do both at the same time. It was a case of 'process' the entire population and dodge the nebula at the cost of their humanity, or retain their humanity and be destroyed (clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFIXshKBgVU). It's actually the same situation as in 'The Tenth Planet', as Chuck Sonnenburg describes in his review (http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-re ... ew-4934206). The upshot is that the original Mondasian Cybermen were motivated by cold logic and the need to survive, as opposed to the more overtly militaristic and somewhat grandiose later versions. Sonnenburg's theory was that the Cybermen developed their military capabilities as a response to the loss of Mondas (and most of their race, hence the increased cyber-conversion).

If the Colonials are willing to talk, the Cybermen would probably be willing to listen. I doubt the Colonials would want to settle on the surface of Mondas (especially since Cyber-conversion would be necessary), but that doesn't rule out an alliance of some kind. The onus is on the Colonials, since their feelings will have a major effect on how it will go. There's no immediate need for conflict, as the Colonials aren't an immediate threat or hindrance to the Cybermen. However, it's entirely likely that the Colonials will find their existence intolerable and become violent. On the other hand, the Colonials are in much the same situation as the Cybermen, giving them a common point of reference. At their most desperate, the Colonials might seriously consider cyber-conversion in order to keep dying humans alive at the very least. In the case of an alliance, the question arises as to what the Colonials can offer the Cybermen in return.

As for the Cylons, if they see Galactica anywhere near Mondas they will most likely assume an alliance and attack. I can't think of any reason why they would even communicate with the Cybermen, unless its to gain their assistance in dealing with the Colonials.

[Stark]

If its the Mondas cybermen just chilling out, then they're guys in bodysocks with a meccano set on their chest. Colonial weapons designed for cylons should kill them just fine, and they have pretty unimpressive spaceflight.

[O Wildish]

for diversity I was thinking along the lines of slightly updated versions of both "Tenth Planet" Cybermen (as the scientists of the race) and the "Invasion" type (which would be their miltary) just before they headed of to invade Earth when I was planning the original fanfic I had in mind (hmm, another factor to consider their plot to attack Earth)

[O Wildish]

I like to thank everyone who's posted thus far for the refreshingly intelligent answers to this thread (I've kind of abandoned this idea for the Fan-fic from the nuGalactica/nuWho point of view I was planning, but it helps)

ok here's a new question, What if Kara Thrace (Starbuck) was captured alone by a group of Cybermen intent on converting her, at first not understanding what they mean until she is rescued and it's explained in gory detail and exactly what Cybermen were orginally

[Ahriman238]

Has there not been a thread or three on this topic before? It seems exceptionally familiar somehow.

[O Wildish]

for different opinions and view points, I've put this on other sites (I hope that's not wrong?)

[Johonebesus]

The timing would make a big difference for the Colonials. If it is before New Caprica I doubt they could overcome their horror. They would probably assume that the Mondasians are the Thirteenth Tribe, for how else could they explain another population of humans? It could lead to a terrible crisis of faith and despair. Remember their reaction to Earth, then imagine an added level of horror that their kin made themselves into machines. Who knows how Rosalyn could cope with the sudden challenge to her faith.

The Cylon reaction would be more interesting to me. If you want to keep the awful canon, then only the One's know the truth about themselves and the Thirteenth Tribe, and the real Cylons are still slaves. The other humanoids would probably come to the same conclusion as the Colonials. The One's would be mystified. They know what happened to Earth, but they also know that the odds of alien humans are astronomically low. It might cause a split amongst them. Cavil would probably convince himself that there were some other survivors of Earth and they decided to try to go back to more machine like forms. Some One's might however consider that maybe there is something to all that God stuff after all.

If further contact allows either faction to discover the truth, that somehow the human form evolved independently over and over again, that would radically change the dynamic. No longer must the Colonials search for one Shining Planet. There would be the potential for many, many civilizations that could give them refuge. The Cylons would be faced with the prospect of a universe teeming with humans who might want to enslave or destroy them.

Then there is the Cybermen's viewpoint. Do they know of other humanoid life? Have they developed space travel yet? If this is early enough in their history, they might be just as shocked as the Colonials and Cylons. If they learn that interstellar travel is feasible, they might consider finding a more hospitable planet.

[O Wildish]

The timing would make a big difference for the Colonials. If it is before New Caprica I doubt they could overcome their horror. They would probably assume that the Mondasians are the Thirteenth Tribe, for how else could they explain another population of humans? It could lead to a terrible crisis of faith and despair. Remember their reaction to Earth, then imagine an added level of horror that their kin made themselves into machines. Who knows how Rosalyn could cope with the sudden challenge to her faith.

The Cylon reaction would be more interesting to me. If you want to keep the awful canon, then only the One's know the truth about themselves and the Thirteenth Tribe, and the real Cylons are still slaves. The other humanoids would probably come to the same conclusion as the Colonials. The One's would be mystified. They know what happened to Earth, but they also know that the odds of alien humans are astronomically low. It might cause a split amongst them. Cavil would probably convince himself that there were some other survivors of Earth and they decided to try to go back to more machine like forms. Some One's might however consider that maybe there is something to all that God stuff after all.

If further contact allows either faction to discover the truth, that somehow the human form evolved independently over and over again, that would radically change the dynamic. No longer must the Colonials search for one Shining Planet. There would be the potential for many, many civilizations that could give them refuge. The Cylons would be faced with the prospect of a universe teeming with humans who might want to enslave or destroy them.

Then there is the Cybermen's viewpoint. Do they know of other humanoid life? Have they developed space travel yet? If this is early enough in their history, they might be just as shocked as the Colonials and Cylons. If they learn that interstellar travel is feasible, they might consider finding a more hospitable planet.

the Idea came when I heard about the "Somethine a Great Notion" episode and I asked myself what if the Earth they initally discovered turned out to be Mondas, travelling away from the Solar System (I hadn't actually seen the episode until a about a week ago. Ironically The Mondasians would be fully aware of other humans since they would be aware of Earth, having already interacted with it's inhabitants prior to Mondas leaving the Solar System and them becomming Cybermen (according to the "Tenth Planet") as the the idea of them learning about intersellar travel also fits nicely since thay do consider finding a more hospitable planet, maybe they did get the idea from Galactica after all, eh?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

the Idea came when I heard about the "Somethine a Great Notion" episode and I asked myself what if the Earth they initally discovered turned out to be Mondas, travelling away from the Solar System (I hadn't actually seen the episode until a about a week ago. Ironically The Mondasians would be fully aware of other humans since they would be aware of Earth, having already interacted with it's inhabitants prior to Mondas leaving the Solar System and them becomming Cybermen (according to the "Tenth Planet") as the the idea of them learning about intersellar travel also fits nicely since thay do consider finding a more hospitable planet, maybe they did get the idea from Galactica after all, eh?

If the Mondasians are fully processed by the time your fic takes place, then that would be before 'The Tenth Planet' and after 'Spare Parts'. One aspect of the Cybermen that was never much covered was how and why some of them left Mondas to set up elsewhere (Telos, etc). Although they were able to rig their planet with engines powerful enough to alter its couse (Spare Parts), they still might not have bothered with actual spaceships until relatively late on (they had interplanetary spaceships in 'The Tenth Planet'. Acquiring the technology from the Colonials or the Cylons (by fair means or foul) would be a convenient explanation.

Dividing the Cybermen into different types makes a degree of sense. The 'soldier' Cybermen would have greater need for improved bodies than scientists or workers would. The type seen in 'Invasion' are part of a broad continuity of appearance running from 'Tomb of the Cybermen' to 'Revenge of the Cybermen'. They are characterised by a scaled-down chest unit (compared to what the 'early Cybermen' appearing in 'The Tenth Planet'), and generally come with external piping and those wiffle balls. The Tardis Index File wiki separates them into 'CyberTelosians' (Tomb of the Cybermen') and 'Cyberfaction' (others up to 'Earthshock', which are 'Cyberneomorphs') though the only major difference is the head, and the Telosian type reappear in 'The Moonbase'. The most obvious explanation for the disparity is that the later 'Invasion' version is an improved version of the earlier Telosian version.

The 'Invasion' version, (or middle Cybermen as I call them) are believable as a 'military' version of the early Cybermen. Their more compact bodies suggest smaller and more efficient components, allowing for better armour and survivability without compromising performance (and perhaps even improving on it). Their 'machine pistol' cyberguns are more compact and easier to handle than the 'lamp' weapons from 'The Tenth Planet'.

If I may make a suggestion, since you're establishing the Mondasian type as scientists and the 'Invasion' type as soldiers, you might want to include the Telosian variant for a specific role, perhaps as engineers. I had the latter idea on the basis of the Telosian type's two appearances (IIRC), namely 'Tomb of the Cybermen' and 'The Moonbase'. In the former case, it would have been they who got sent out to build and man the tombs. In the latter case, the novel 'Doctor Who and the Cybermen' (which uses the plot of 'The Moonbase') reveals that the plan was to take over the base and rig it with cyberweapons, a good task for engineers. It would just help if you want to follow continuity closely.

[O Wildish]

Thats very intresting, have you prehaps read David Banks book on Cybermen, if you haven't you should check it out, thought it's longer in print, it gives a very detailed account on the history of the Cybermen up to "Attack"

[inviz345]

the mondas has a space flight they put an enigne on they planet. na iceberg
The CyberMondasians developed a drive which used electro-magnetic energy to push the whole planet through space.

[O Wildish]

I think a lot of these statements on this will prove useful to me, others have been less open minded and more concerned with the compatability of the two shows focusing soley on nuGalactica and nuDrWho (on other sites tht is) again I must thank you all here, off course the fact that the nuBattlestar Galactica is set 150,000 years in the past is an intresting factor, classic Battlestar Galactica was set somewhere around 1970-1980 thus this coincides nicely with what I know of classic Doctor Who (UNIT dating annomilies not withstanding) "DW, The Invasion" which was fifth Cyberman story, which was supposedly set in the 70s and "DW, the Tenth Planet" the first Cyberman story, when Mondas itself arrived in 1986, thats Time Travel for you (incidently which era of the classic Doctor Who would fit best with classic Battlestar Galactica, I think it might be late Tom Baker, with K-9 and Romana)

[O Wildish]

I just remembered something inportant I forgot about Mondas that would make the lives of the colonials and prehaps the cylons alot harder in dealing with the Cybermen, Mondas itself is planetary space vampire that drains the energy of planets it goes near as well a non-Cyberships that get too close

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Thats very intresting, have you prehaps read David Banks book on Cybermen, if you haven't you should check it out, thought it's longer in print, it gives a very detailed account on the history of the Cybermen up to "Attack"

I just got my grubby hands on that book. Very interesting.

Another little question came up as such. At what point in Mondas' journey across the solar system do you want the Galactica to show up? The issue is primarily to do with whether the fleet arrives before or after the 'CyberFaction' leaves Mondas for the 14th planet. The CyberFaction falls into two types, the 'Invasion' type who become the CyberNomads, and the Telosian type who become the CyberTelosians. Both end up leaving the Solar system after failing to conquer Earth. Having the Invasion type as soldiers and the Telosian type as something else would explain why the two groups appear to co-exist in the CyberFaction. Also, the explanation given for the CyberFaction was that they more aggressively pursued cyber-conversion, whereas the Mondasians converted themselves more gradually. This ideological difference has some good storytelling potential.

[Stark]

Is there any indication at all that Mondas is a 'space vampire' and the Cybermen didn't induce the effect technologically (or that it was due to Mondas being Earth's inverse 'sister planet')? I don't think there is, you know.

At least this thread makes it clear where all those astonishingly stupid terms (CyberNomad, lol) came from. David Banks goes on the lists of authors to laugh at!

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Is there any indication at all that Mondas is a 'space vampire' and the Cybermen didn't induce the effect technologically (or that it was due to Mondas being Earth's inverse 'sister planet')? I don't think there is, you know.

At least this thread makes it clear where all those astonishingly stupid terms (CyberNomad, lol) came from. David Banks goes on the lists of authors to laugh at!

I'm pretty sure it is technological.

It's a flawed system I'll admit (and I like that book a lot). I personally prefer to refer to them by their first appearances, hence the 'Tenth Planet' type, the 'Moonbase' type, the 'Invasion' type, and the 'Earthshock' type. The 'Moonbase' type was actually used the most times, in 'The Moonbase','Tomb of the Cybermen', and 'Wheel in Space', with minor variations in appearance. The 'Invasion' type was used twice, in 'The Invasion' and 'Revenge of the Cybermen', the latter being sufficiently similar in appearance to the former to warrant them being the same type. The 'Earthshock' type was very popular, and got three appearances ('Earthshock', 'The Five Doctors', 'Attack of the Cybermen'), or four if those in 'Silver Nemesis' can be included (I certainly do).

The changes can for the most part be explained by technological improvement (in-universe). The problem is how to get around the co-existence of the 'Tenth Planet', 'Moonbase' and 'Invasion' types. 'The Invasion' takes place in the 1970's (supposedly), while 'The Tenth Planet' takes place in 1986 and 'The Moonbase' takes place in 2070. The whole 'CyberFaction' thing was an attempt to explain the disparity, with the 'Faction' being a group of Mondasians who left Mondas in order to pursue unlimited cyber-conversion. Yet they end up splitting into two noticeably different versions while apparently coexisting on Planet 14. Time travel is a potential (and traditional) explanation, but the only Cybermen known to possess a time machine were 'Earthshock' types in 'Attack of the Cybermen'.

Obviously some Cybermen must have left Mondas and the Sol system in order to get to Telos (and whatever other Tombs they established). The Planet 14 connection derives from 'The Invasion', meaning the Moonbase types weren't necessarily there. It's this part that makes the Cybermen acquiring FTL tech from the BSG factions interesting. O Wildish's idea to make the Invasion types soldiers is also interesting, as the events of 'The Invasion' could have been carried out by an advanced guard sent from Mondas, or else a separate faction that established itself on Planet 14 and carried out its own plan (whether cooperating with Mondas or not).

[Stark]

Its not just flawed, its totally unnecessary. Its just what happens when nerds need to catalog everything and link everything to everything else in a nice neat row.

Just to be clear, was that novel saying that the 'planet 14' mentioned in Invasion is in Earth's solar system somewhere?

The best part about trying to link all this stuff is that by nature, the appearance of the cybermen is mutable (and thus determined solely by what props are around) and the idea or concept of cybermen is all that needs to exist for them to exist in some way. You don't need bizarre shit like trying to link Tenth Planet and Invasion. Even if Mondas was still coming (protip, it wasn't, lol) those guys were so amazingly primitive that they probably wouldn't even notice, and the two groups don't have to be linked at all.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Of course it doesn't all have to tie in neatly. As a fanfic writer myself I've noticed that, ironically enough, it is sometimes better if it doesn't. A gap in continuity is a story begging to be told.

It isn't a novel so much as a sourcebook. It begins with a coverage of the concepts and ideas underlying the Cybermen. The most obvious is the issue of transplant surgery, but also things like robots, artificial intelligence, the desire to create life (Frankenstein etc) and the connection between 'soul' and body (i.e., how much of the body can be replaced before the 'soul' is lost?). There's also some 'behind the scenes' stuff on the making of the episodes.

The '14 Planet' theory is, like the faction names, an attempt to pull together the wider Doctor Who continuity on this subject. The issue is how long it would take for Mondas to make its journey. Travelling at 100,000 mph, it would need 60,000 years for a round-trip to the next solar system and 120,000 years for the one after that (figures from source). I don't know where the speed figure comes from, but something with the mass of a planet won't be moving at any speed in this plane of reality. The argument is that if the Mondasians had an advanced civilization when their planet began to move (they would need it to survive the likely effects), then they should have been a lot more advanced than they appeared to be in 'The Tenth Planet'. The 14 planets are by Mondasian reckoning. They include Earth's moon as planet 2, which somehow moved out to displace Mondas from its twin orbit with Earth (based on a claim that the Moon's composition is insufficiently similar to that of Earth). Planet 7 is the Fendahl planet, later becoming the asteroid belt, while planets 13 and 14 are beyond Pluto.

If we accept the 'Spare Parts' audioplay as canon, then this has been superceded ('Cybermen' was published in 1990, while 'Spare Parts' was released in 2002). 'Spare Parts' has Mondas wandering into the 'Cherrybowl Nebula', thus getting into the situation I mentioned earlier, while the cause of its movement was given as the emergence of the Moon from a then-unstable Earth forcing it from orbit. This means that Mondas was sent on its way around four billion years ago, which is plenty of time to go places at STL (human lifespans aside). It also means that the Mondasian Cybermen could indeed have colonized Telos or Planet 14 or any number of other places. Thus the 'Invasion' could have been carried out by Cybermen who developed independently after leaving Mondas.

[Johonebesus]

If I were you I'd be sorely tempted to reject the EU and create my own backstory for Mondas. Perhaps some sort of weird wormhole appeared and transported the planet to another star in a colder orbit. The original explanation doesn't make any sense at all. Notice that in the revival of the Silurians the Doctor mentioned the moon settling into its orbit instead of being captured. It's a subtle point, but probably an attempt to gloss over the original story without flatly contradicting it.

In fact, thinking about it, that could actually create a neat story. Perhaps the Mondasians are split into two factions. One favors technological advancement, while the other has a myth about a god swallowing the world, so now it's being digested. Their reasoning is that man should accept his fate, and using technology to preserve civilization is sinful. The Doctor arrives without knowing which planet he's on and naturally sides with the scientists. He helps them to defeat a terror plot by the zealots and figures out that the eating god is actually a wormhole, and the planet's orbit will take it back through and to it's old star in a couple more centuries. He leaves thinking that he's helped save a great civilization, and only then learns that he was on Mondas and helped to create the Cybermen. Maybe there's a promotional video that he watches that talks about some of the enhancements to allow people to work on the surface, including a big oxygen concentrator/heater and a permanent helmet with artificial eyes and a handy broad spectrum lantern on top.

[Stark]

That's the funniest thing about fannish stuff; they take some stupid audio that is pretty clearly not canon, decide that it means Mondas was out there for billions of years, and then try to link this to every earlier Cyberman story somehow with crazy philosophical fiction.

Does anyone really think the events of the Tenth Planet occurred as shown in the world of later Doctor Who stories like Invasion, Revenge, or even Silver Nemesis? Why does everything have to fit into one linear timeline?

The Cybermen never really made a lot of sense and their stories are not very good, but to be 'cybermen' all a group needs to do is have heard of them and like cyberware. The idea of a distributed posthuman movement using terms like 'CyberNomad' is so 1987 it makes me laugh.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well, Tenth Planet clearly didn't happen in the Silver Nemesis plot, as Ace had no idea what they were and didn't recognise the name.

However, in Attack, the Doctor and Lytton and the Cybermen seemed pretty insistent it was still going to happen, as the Cybermen wanted to damage Earth to save Mondas.

[O Wildish]

I'm starting to get the feel for this story now, I've kind of abandoned the idea of a nuGalactica/DW crossover, for now in favor of a Classic Galactica/DW clash, which would be much less complex. Galactica being set sometime between the first series and 1980, with Doctor Who Set during or just before Season 18 (But with the "Tenth Planet/Invasion" type Cybermen) with Mondas on the return journey towards the Solar System, it's not clear if the "Invasion" type are from Planet 14 at all, nor that the Doctor was aware of them being there when he visited, hardly anything other than a passing comment is known about Planet 14, so I'm opting for the "Invasion" Cybermen to have been form Mondas and Planet 14 was merely a planet that was invaded and then destroied by Mondas as it passed, another unknown thats been pointed out is weather or not the "Vampire" like nature of Mondas was technological or something to do with the planet itself somehow, just a theory, prehaps the planet itself was a living thing?

(Incidently I haven't heard "Spear Parts" yet, when I write Fanfiction I like to stick as close to the cannonical source as possible, i.e. the Tv shows)