Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
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Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
Let's assume that magic exists in addition to the physics we already know. What wonderful machines might be possible? For example, there are many different thought experiments in physics that are not possible due to the necessary materials being impossibilities. If they existed, the concepts would still work. For example: "A container is divided into two parts by an insulated wall, with a door that can be opened and closed by what came to be called "Maxwell's demon". The demon opens the door to allow only the "hot" molecules of gas to flow through to a favored side of the chamber, causing that side to gradually heat up while the other side cools down, thus decreasing entropy." Obviously we can't do that with today's materials and we use compression and expansion of a refrigerant gas to accomplish a similar feat. But if you have magic you could invent a maxdemon refrigerator operating on exactly that principle.
I've also seen a fantasy example of a refrigerator created using the popularly known principle that supernatural manifestations lowers the ambient temperature, makes a room cold when a ghost appears. Localize a haunting to an icebox and enjoy spooky cold beer.
I've got visions of a sort of paranormal Flintstones technology except spooks take the place of prehistoric critters.
So electric motors might be replaced by captive djinn who are enslaved to spin the shaft upon command. And from our perspective, how is a flow of electricity into a motor any different? Well, the electric motor won't want to eat our face if it ever breaks free but that's likely a small price to pay for progress.
So, what other ideas seem obvious?
I've also seen a fantasy example of a refrigerator created using the popularly known principle that supernatural manifestations lowers the ambient temperature, makes a room cold when a ghost appears. Localize a haunting to an icebox and enjoy spooky cold beer.
I've got visions of a sort of paranormal Flintstones technology except spooks take the place of prehistoric critters.
So electric motors might be replaced by captive djinn who are enslaved to spin the shaft upon command. And from our perspective, how is a flow of electricity into a motor any different? Well, the electric motor won't want to eat our face if it ever breaks free but that's likely a small price to pay for progress.
So, what other ideas seem obvious?
Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
You'd need to better define what is or isn't possible. Otherwise, why bother with Maxwell's demon? Just arbitrarily stop those molecules from moving and make those molecules move faster.
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
Ok. To define what's possible, sufficiently powerful entities would be able to wish things to happen but lesser entities would have to do the work. Physics works as usual except where sufficient application of magic undoes reality, probability and causality.
Regular human wants a beer cold, uses fridge or he could use a liquid nitrogen bath which is awesome but expensive. Takes more energy to chill the nitrogen than run the fridge.
Wizard wants a beer cold, can use a maxwell demon fridge cheaply or whip out a frost spell which is more expensive. Takes more mana to suck all the heat out of the beer than bind the demon to the fridge.
A god could wish beer into existence by directly violating reality and probability. Virtual particles from the quantum foam appear as the beer and their anti particles are quantum tunneled far enough away to keep from making a radiation-filled boom. A sloppy god makes beer and antibeer in the same place and kills all his followers.
So, we are operating under the principle of most bang for the buck, mana isn't cheap.
Regular human wants a beer cold, uses fridge or he could use a liquid nitrogen bath which is awesome but expensive. Takes more energy to chill the nitrogen than run the fridge.
Wizard wants a beer cold, can use a maxwell demon fridge cheaply or whip out a frost spell which is more expensive. Takes more mana to suck all the heat out of the beer than bind the demon to the fridge.
A god could wish beer into existence by directly violating reality and probability. Virtual particles from the quantum foam appear as the beer and their anti particles are quantum tunneled far enough away to keep from making a radiation-filled boom. A sloppy god makes beer and antibeer in the same place and kills all his followers.
So, we are operating under the principle of most bang for the buck, mana isn't cheap.
- lordofchange13
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
How is mana acquired? Does it come from another universe like the warp in 40K,is it a material like from Larry Niven's novel, or do people just accumulate it over time?
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"I consider the Laws of Thermodynamics a loose guideline at best!"
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
For purposes of this discussion, magic will be operating according to Discworld principles.
So a wizard might directly draw upon local magic energy to make something happen or he could prevail upon some spirit entity to do the work for him. The less energy needlessly expended, magical and physical, the better off he'll be.
Presumably too much magic in one area could deplete the local "force" the same way oxygen can become depleted with too many people breathing in a confined space. This wouldn't make things die, it just means magic won't work until the the force/mana has balanced out again.
I would also say that a wizard channeling too much mana can "overheat" and require a cooldown. The magic power doesn't come from within him, he's a conduit.
One thought that springs to mind, if magic machines really are operating as paranormal Flintstones tech (see picture above) then this means that it's very possible for a machine to "give up the ghost" and break. A Maxwell's demon refrigerator might lose its demon and need to have another one coaxed inside. The owner will have to take good care of his equipment and keep the machine spirits happy or else it might not be agreeable. Nice divinator, good divinator. Please show me the weather forecast for tomorrow. That's a good divinator.
The mana used to work magic operates on Star Wars principles which cribs from Eastern religions. It's an energy field produced by all living things and is part of a food chain for magical critters. So just like sunlight is captured by grass which is eaten by the deer which is eaten by man who is thus ultimately eating captured sunlight, the magic can be fed on as well. Some spirits can just suck it from the environment in passing like a filter feeder takes nutrients from passing water. This energy field just happens to be a byproduct of the life process. Animal eats food, burns oxygen and food, byproducts are CO2, heat, and mana.Magic is the principal force on the Discworld, and operates in a similar vein to real-world elemental forces such as gravity and electromagnetism. The Disc's "standing magical field" is essentially the local breakdown of reality which allows a flat planet on the back of a turtle to even exist. The force called "magic" is really just a function of the relative absence of reality in the local area, much in the same way that the absence of heat is described as "coldness." Magic warps reality in much the same way as the real universe's gravity warps its space-time. The act of performing magic is, essentially, telling the universe what you want it to be like, in terms it can't ignore.
So a wizard might directly draw upon local magic energy to make something happen or he could prevail upon some spirit entity to do the work for him. The less energy needlessly expended, magical and physical, the better off he'll be.
Presumably too much magic in one area could deplete the local "force" the same way oxygen can become depleted with too many people breathing in a confined space. This wouldn't make things die, it just means magic won't work until the the force/mana has balanced out again.
I would also say that a wizard channeling too much mana can "overheat" and require a cooldown. The magic power doesn't come from within him, he's a conduit.
One thought that springs to mind, if magic machines really are operating as paranormal Flintstones tech (see picture above) then this means that it's very possible for a machine to "give up the ghost" and break. A Maxwell's demon refrigerator might lose its demon and need to have another one coaxed inside. The owner will have to take good care of his equipment and keep the machine spirits happy or else it might not be agreeable. Nice divinator, good divinator. Please show me the weather forecast for tomorrow. That's a good divinator.
- SpaceMarine93
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
Edit: [Deleted by author]
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- gigabytelord
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
It sounds like your trying to recreate the force, except instead of throwing people off of thousand foot balconies you're using UNLIMITED POWER! to chill a beer.
I hope that's a Leinenkugel, Bud may be the king of beers, but that doesn't stop it tasting like piss.
I hope that's a Leinenkugel, Bud may be the king of beers, but that doesn't stop it tasting like piss.
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
Not really trying to recreate the Force. Most stories involving magic stick to familiar tropes. Magic hurls fireballs. It can heal people. But it's kept as far away from machines as possible. If machines are involved, it's usually some weird Shadowrun situation or weird magical steampunk. I've only seen a few cases and very long ago where people tried to make magic a little more consistent, a little more logical. That's the basic thought experiment here.gigabytelord wrote:It sounds like your trying to recreate the force, except instead of throwing people off of thousand foot balconies you're using UNLIMITED POWER! to chill a beer.
I hope that's a Leinenkugel, Bud may be the king of beers, but that doesn't stop it tasting like piss.
Usually what happens with scifi and fantasy is that futuretech and magic are both implemented without considering the implications. The presence of a proper and fully functional lie detector changes everything. You've removed every possibility of deception, no double-cross storyline. All people will be screened at random to ensure they are on the up and up. Same goes for any truth serum.
We have some of this in real life like where a battleship is obsoleted by torpedo-carrying vehicles (planes, subs, pt boats) and stubborn admirals insisted that rule of cool would carry the day. We see the same problem with aircraft carriers today. Hopelessly vulnerable to cruise missiles, too awesome to let go of.
I'm just wondering what sort of magic ideas remain plausible but usually get overlooked in the usual implementations in a fantasy world. You give a genie lamp to Conan, he's going to ask for the best sword in the world. He won't even think of asking for a gun. And a lot of cheap and crappy guns will beat the best swordsman with the best sword any day of the week.
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
Interesting, how would you go about preventing someone, from say, creating and using a magical equivalent to a nuke ie. 'magic bomb'?Not really trying to recreate the Force. Most stories involving magic stick to familiar tropes. Magic hurls fireballs. It can heal people. But it's kept as far away from machines as possible. If machines are involved, it's usually some weird Shadowrun situation or weird magical steampunk. I've only seen a few cases and very long ago where people tried to make magic a little more consistent, a little more logical. That's the basic thought experiment here.
Usually what happens with scifi and fantasy is that futuretech and magic are both implemented without considering the implications. The presence of a proper and fully functional lie detector changes everything. You've removed every possibility of deception, no double-cross storyline. All people will be screened at random to ensure they are on the up and up. Same goes for any truth serum.
We have some of this in real life like where a battleship is obsoleted by torpedo-carrying vehicles (planes, subs, pt boats) and stubborn admirals insisted that rule of cool would carry the day. We see the same problem with aircraft carriers today. Hopelessly vulnerable to cruise missiles, too awesome to let go of.
I'm just wondering what sort of magic ideas remain plausible but usually get overlooked in the usual implementations in a fantasy world. You give a genie lamp to Conan, he's going to ask for the best sword in the world. He won't even think of asking for a gun. And a lot of cheap and crappy guns will beat the best swordsman with the best sword any day of the week.
In a world where magic and tech live side by side, you have to take in to account that some one at some point, is going to have a beef with some one else. Would you have to worry about a magic vs tech arms race? I mean a wizard throwing fireballs is good and all, but what happens when the high tech peeps roll up in their tanks, and APCs, and start using machine guns and long range weapons?
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
For the most part it would be the degree of difficulty in pulling off a particular stunt.
"Wow. Physics allows for atom bombs. I'd hate to live in a world like that. Why, plutonium must be available in every corner drug store. Get in a beef and the whole city blows up." Well, it's a little more complicated than that. But if two nations get in a fight... um, yeah. Problems.
So I'd wager that city-smashing magic is a bit harder to come by, not every tom, dick and harry can conjure it up. But I'd wager that "shooting spree" scale magic would be possible. It might even scale a little easier. Some wizard goes postal, we'd be talking some high body counts. But there would still be a practical scaling limit. Some disaffected high school students decide to blow up the school, you'll get a Columbine. You won't have a 9-11. Some disaffected terrorists get some serious backing, you can get a 9-11 but it won't be WWIII. Disaffected world leaders, now you can have WWIII.
But what I'm getting at with the thought experiment is trying to imagine realistic tech that could be created by adding in some magic bits. Some of these ideas we've already created with technology. Hate carrying out chamber pots? Wish there was a way to eliminate that chore? Say hello to the flush commode. Hate fetching water? Say hello to modern plumbing. Would you like a book of world facts that is magically updated as the facts change, never goes out of date? Ten years ago that was still fantasy. Today, say hello to Wikipedia. Would you like elven clothing that never gets dirty, never stains, can't even get wet? Sheds water like feathers on the back of a duck? We've created hydrophobic fabric and it'll be available in the stores within a few years. Videos are already on the youtube.
So I'm looking at it from a point of practical need and a complete lacking of modern science to satisfy the necessary component. If the design calls for unobtanium or some impossible gadget, substitute a magical doodad and go from there. What can't we build right now that would work with magic?
"Wow. Physics allows for atom bombs. I'd hate to live in a world like that. Why, plutonium must be available in every corner drug store. Get in a beef and the whole city blows up." Well, it's a little more complicated than that. But if two nations get in a fight... um, yeah. Problems.
So I'd wager that city-smashing magic is a bit harder to come by, not every tom, dick and harry can conjure it up. But I'd wager that "shooting spree" scale magic would be possible. It might even scale a little easier. Some wizard goes postal, we'd be talking some high body counts. But there would still be a practical scaling limit. Some disaffected high school students decide to blow up the school, you'll get a Columbine. You won't have a 9-11. Some disaffected terrorists get some serious backing, you can get a 9-11 but it won't be WWIII. Disaffected world leaders, now you can have WWIII.
But what I'm getting at with the thought experiment is trying to imagine realistic tech that could be created by adding in some magic bits. Some of these ideas we've already created with technology. Hate carrying out chamber pots? Wish there was a way to eliminate that chore? Say hello to the flush commode. Hate fetching water? Say hello to modern plumbing. Would you like a book of world facts that is magically updated as the facts change, never goes out of date? Ten years ago that was still fantasy. Today, say hello to Wikipedia. Would you like elven clothing that never gets dirty, never stains, can't even get wet? Sheds water like feathers on the back of a duck? We've created hydrophobic fabric and it'll be available in the stores within a few years. Videos are already on the youtube.
So I'm looking at it from a point of practical need and a complete lacking of modern science to satisfy the necessary component. If the design calls for unobtanium or some impossible gadget, substitute a magical doodad and go from there. What can't we build right now that would work with magic?
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
Fascinating, is this dnd type magic? ie. need water? buy a cup of endless water, need food? conjure it up, Need fuel? attract or summon a demon to replace the engine, although I suspect getting him to stop and go when you want him to might be an issue.jollyreaper wrote:For the most part it would be the degree of difficulty in pulling off a particular stunt.
"Wow. Physics allows for atom bombs. I'd hate to live in a world like that. Why, plutonium must be available in every corner drug store. Get in a beef and the whole city blows up." Well, it's a little more complicated than that. But if two nations get in a fight... um, yeah. Problems.
So I'd wager that city-smashing magic is a bit harder to come by, not every tom, dick and harry can conjure it up. But I'd wager that "shooting spree" scale magic would be possible. It might even scale a little easier. Some wizard goes postal, we'd be talking some high body counts. But there would still be a practical scaling limit. Some disaffected high school students decide to blow up the school, you'll get a Columbine. You won't have a 9-11. Some disaffected terrorists get some serious backing, you can get a 9-11 but it won't be WWIII. Disaffected world leaders, now you can have WWIII.
But what I'm getting at with the thought experiment is trying to imagine realistic tech that could be created by adding in some magic bits. Some of these ideas we've already created with technology. Hate carrying out chamber pots? Wish there was a way to eliminate that chore? Say hello to the flush commode. Hate fetching water? Say hello to modern plumbing. Would you like a book of world facts that is magically updated as the facts change, never goes out of date? Ten years ago that was still fantasy. Today, say hello to Wikipedia. Would you like elven clothing that never gets dirty, never stains, can't even get wet? Sheds water like feathers on the back of a duck? We've created hydrophobic fabric and it'll be available in the stores within a few years. Videos are already on the youtube.
So I'm looking at it from a point of practical need and a complete lacking of modern science to satisfy the necessary component. If the design calls for unobtanium or some impossible gadget, substitute a magical doodad and go from there. What can't we build right now that would work with magic?
Other things I can think of would be a situation where you have very advanced tech, but you're at a point where regular tech just isn't cutting, for instance say you need a... superconductor to get a job done, but don't have the industrial capabilities to produce said tech.
But you do have access to ice elementals, and therefore have the ability to super cool your unobtainium to the point to where it will function as a super conductor.
I usually don't think in the terms of magic so maybe I'm not thinking of the right instances, I also tend to over think so...
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
For the example of the food as you mentioned, it would be extraordinarily expensive to get food that way. A god might do so just as a means of conspicuous consumption like rich people shopping for the latest Parisian fashions by hopping on the private jet and flying to Paris.
But you're not quite going in the direction I was thinking. Here's a thought. Let's say you've got yourself a proper poltergeist manifestation. It takes a lot of energy to lift and move stuff through pure pschokinetics. A poltergeist like that would tire itself out quickly.
So, imagine if you were to create an articulated suit of armor with the limbs moved by levers and pulleys. So to look at it from a certain perspective, this is a power armor suit that boosts the spirit's strength to the point where it can be a credible threat.
Something I think has already been done in fantasy would be a sun crystal. Set it out in the sun during the day and it will absorb sunlight. At night it will radiate the stored light.
That's the sort of stuff I was thinking about.
But you're not quite going in the direction I was thinking. Here's a thought. Let's say you've got yourself a proper poltergeist manifestation. It takes a lot of energy to lift and move stuff through pure pschokinetics. A poltergeist like that would tire itself out quickly.
So, imagine if you were to create an articulated suit of armor with the limbs moved by levers and pulleys. So to look at it from a certain perspective, this is a power armor suit that boosts the spirit's strength to the point where it can be a credible threat.
Something I think has already been done in fantasy would be a sun crystal. Set it out in the sun during the day and it will absorb sunlight. At night it will radiate the stored light.
That's the sort of stuff I was thinking about.
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
You seem to be determined to create a magic system that is either more expensive or more difficult to use than what can be achieved with modern science. If you can buy a fridge for £100 but need £500 of magical equipment to achieve the same magics not going to get a look in.
Obviously anything can be achieved with magic, that’s the point of magic, it doesn’t get limited by reality. Therefore you can have your magically cold fridge or cooker that doesn’t consume fuel to produce heat but if it takes more effort than what can be achieved with science it doesn’t really matter. Even with things science simply can’t achieve like teleportation or magic superconductors if creating them with magic is so expensive that only gods can do so their clearly not going to be of any use to society.
Light bulbs have many obvious advantages, the first being they work regardless of the day before their use being a bit cloudy and secondly you don't have to keep up a cycle of crystals being outside to get recharged. If you want a society that uses magic as frequently as we use electricity it’s going to need to offer some advantages.
Obviously anything can be achieved with magic, that’s the point of magic, it doesn’t get limited by reality. Therefore you can have your magically cold fridge or cooker that doesn’t consume fuel to produce heat but if it takes more effort than what can be achieved with science it doesn’t really matter. Even with things science simply can’t achieve like teleportation or magic superconductors if creating them with magic is so expensive that only gods can do so their clearly not going to be of any use to society.
Something I think has already been done in fantasy would be a sun crystal.
Light bulbs have many obvious advantages, the first being they work regardless of the day before their use being a bit cloudy and secondly you don't have to keep up a cycle of crystals being outside to get recharged. If you want a society that uses magic as frequently as we use electricity it’s going to need to offer some advantages.
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
I started thinking about it and it came to me that even in this setting tech would prevail.
Just think about it for a second.
How many years would you need to be a full-fledged wizard/witch able to summon pillars of fire and lakes of water whenever you want? I mean by that having the technique right and sufficient mana. One year? Ten? Hundred?
How many years need an engineer to create a machine able to summon a spirit that will do that. Given sufficient wizards to experiment on, way less than whatever was the answer above.
And this is the problem with magic. If it is for some exceptional individuals, we as human will do our best to make it available to everyone and over time, there will no longer be any incentive to become a real wizard. You'll stay at the apprentice level just to be sure that you can still operate the equivalent of your laptop, even when the batteries are down.
Note: If I was a thaumaturges, the first think I would work on is a Magic Battery. And maybe a Digital Spell Library.
Just think about it for a second.
How many years would you need to be a full-fledged wizard/witch able to summon pillars of fire and lakes of water whenever you want? I mean by that having the technique right and sufficient mana. One year? Ten? Hundred?
How many years need an engineer to create a machine able to summon a spirit that will do that. Given sufficient wizards to experiment on, way less than whatever was the answer above.
And this is the problem with magic. If it is for some exceptional individuals, we as human will do our best to make it available to everyone and over time, there will no longer be any incentive to become a real wizard. You'll stay at the apprentice level just to be sure that you can still operate the equivalent of your laptop, even when the batteries are down.
Note: If I was a thaumaturges, the first think I would work on is a Magic Battery. And maybe a Digital Spell Library.
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Re: Magic is real. Let's be thaumaturges (magic engineers!)
Well, there would be a number of factors to determine the true cost of doing it with magic or doing it with tech. Bicycle-powered phone recharging is pretty silly in the States where even the humblest poor person has wall power for dead cheap. Makes sense in the Third World where even the well-to-do have trouble getting reliable electricity.