Posleen and things similar...

[gigabytelord]

First of all I'm about to buy several Posleen books, I read a thread a page or two back in this forum, about this race and decided to bite the bullet and read them, they sounded like they might be good reading partly because they apparently go against the all to common "aliens invade we all die with little effort" or "aliens invade, and we're getting our collective asses handed to us, but at the last second we deus ex our way out"

I find this disturbing and therefore pass over a large number of relatively good novels because, well, I like even fights, I always have and I hate it when one side or the other is portrayed as the end all be all, and it takes a deus ex to save our dear protagonist.

The point of this thread is to build a list of books in which earth or other fictional worlds are placed in difficult circumstances, ie. planetary invasion, or other world changing events, and actually have a chance of being victorious.
I am seeking to get a better understanding of the components that go into great novels, as such I plan to read a rather large number of novels over the next few months, and possibly several years as I try to venture into the realm of writing science fiction, the books I am currently interested in include, Dune, the Posleen series, several wh40k novels, and several star wars novels, any further insight is welcome of course.

~ Giga

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not sure they're worth the money, honestly. The Posleen books are pretty cheesy, really; if you really want, read the first two (they're available for free in the Baen Free Library), then think it over again.

Skip the ones with Kratman as a co-author unless you can completely ignore the politics and just read for the plot, skip all the ones with Kratman except Yellow Eyes even if you CAN completely ignore the politics and read for the plot.

[Stark]

If you like 'even fights', you won't like those books. And reading them to get an insight into 'great novels' is just ... it boggles the mind.

[Shroom Man 777]

Mentioning 40k novels and Star Wars novels in the same line is also a boggle.

Might as well recommend the Bartest Blade and finish it once and for all.

[gigabytelord]

Whether or not novel is great is determined in the mind of the reader, but seeing as I've never read any of these novels, I created this thread to ask for advice about which "great" sci-fi novels to read, I've heard many points of view when it comes to wh40k novels and the same about star wars books, but I prefer to read them before I make a judgement on the matter, however it is possible that I will start a book and instantly be turned off of it for whatever reason.

That being said, I've never heard bad things about the Dune series by Frank Herbert, other than they can be confusing to read, if you don't keep track of the multiple story lines, I have no issue with this.
I've always been a stickler for Tom Clancy writings because of their obvious military story lines.

So if you have a suggestion as to which novel/s you would consider to be great, do tell, for I am very much interested.

[Simon_Jester]

Ok, giga, I think you need to define what you mean by "great."

Is a book "great" because it involves a lot of fighting? Is it great because there's a lot of tension about the outcome? Is it great because there are memorable characters in it that make an impression on your imagination? Is it great because it's got memorable scenery, an impressive and compelling background for the story to happen in? Is it great because it's funny, and if so, what do you laugh at? Is it great because of some combination all that? Something else I haven't thought of?

[Shroom Man 777]

EDIT:

No, I don't want to go to hell for this.

[Simon_Jester]

See, that's a story that's "great" in that it involves a lot of shit blowing up, including some fairly cool explosions like Satan's palace getting bombed.

But in all other ways, it is at most mediocre and at best totally inferior and bad.

[Shroom Man 777]

No. I don't want to be responsible for the further destruction of another person. Even if it may seem funny.

No.

God no.

[Simon_Jester]

Don't worry, if you go to hell for this we'll just have to go rescue you.

BALLS!

Anyway, I think giga's standards are pretty low, or he's setting them pretty low. But we need more information.

[gigabytelord]

Ok, giga, I think you need to define what you mean by "great."

Is a book "great" because it involves a lot of fighting? Is it great because there's a lot of tension about the outcome? Is it great because there are memorable characters in it that make an impression on your imagination? Is it great because it's got memorable scenery, an impressive and compelling background for the story to happen in? Is it great because it's funny, and if so, what do you laugh at? Is it great because of some combination all that? Something else I haven't thought of?

I would say all of the above, I come from a very military heavy culture so some forms of comedy that may be reprehensible to others, would not be to me, the same goes with many other aspects of life and fiction, and yes I enjoy stretching my imagination to the greatest lengths, but within certain limits of course, novels that I usually try to stay away from also tend to be very magic intensive, hence the reason why I've never ventured into wh40k novels, to much magic and doom.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, giga, I think that as a man you would be well advised to cultivate your tastes in matters that don't involve explosions.

There's a very bad sort of artist out there, who creates poor art and spices it up with explosions to make it look cool to excitable people. Watching or reading too much of it can make you look foolish: imagine the sentence "Michael Bay is the best director ever."

So think in terms of those other things- tension about the outcome, memorable characters, scenery, background, and so on. You can have all those things in a story where warfare is totally outside the picture, or is going on but in the background so that it doesn't really matter much.

[Stark]

Man hearing you talk about stretching your imagination, and then about how much you like explosions because you're from a warrior culture is hilarious.

Are you prepared to read anything that isn't about armies of justice slaying the lesser races?

[Shroom Man 777]

He just hasn't seen much I guess. I've seen this before. Young impressionable person gets off on a wrong start, ends up reading the wrong kinds of things that gets them excited and influences their brain forever, bam. You get years worth of stuff inspired by these... er, great things.

I think instead of steering him towards more of the same so his brains will end up with unending military war invasion graphs trivias weapons technology explosion stories, we should try to steer him towards different things so his brain can see diversities and cool stuff that don't necessarily have to conform to all these things that he's already experienced.

Like, if a guy wants to go to eat out and he says that he's been going to steak places for the last month, don't take him to another barbecue grill steak place, take him to a sushi place or something.


Foundation by Isaac Asimov

Neuromancer by William Gibson

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

[Stark]

Its nearly impossible for me to name a science fiction book that is actually good on literary merits. Egan's stuff? Stuff about explosions is barely even 'science fiction' anyway, it's just WWI/1808/1944/Vietnam WITH LASERS.

[gigabytelord]

EDIT:

No, I don't want to go to hell for this.

Wth dude don't leave me hanging, I didn't get to read that

Anyway, I think giga's standards are pretty low, or he's setting them pretty low. But we need more information.

I find myself doing that more often recently, because if I don't, well everything else just appears lack luster in comparison.

The best way I can describe it is this, the first Anime I had ever seen was Ghost in the Shell, up until that point I had never watched any anime, at all.
Suffice to say, I find my self disliking almost all other anime series, the only one I can sit down and enjoy, is cowboy bebop.

NINJA EDIT!: I fucking hate the transformers movies, I was on the fence about the cartoon series before the movies came out, but after the live action boob fest with explosions, that they call a movie... Just no.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hey if you want some neato animu with militaro explosionimus, try Yukikaze. It's not a long animu, it deals with war between humans and aliens yet neither side has a huge advantage and it seems like an even fight, yet it's got stuff that's also non-conventional and quite strange, and it avoids the kiddy silly stuff most people stereotype animus and mangos with. And it's got great miltech hardware visuals and whatnots.

[Simon_Jester]

Its nearly impossible for me to name a science fiction book that is actually good on literary merits. Egan's stuff?

It doesn't have to be Shakespeare- just stuff with interesting ideas that isn't full of HOO-RAH WARRIOR HEROES FIGHTING FOR SPARTAFREEDOMERICA! chest-beating and absurdity.

EDIT:

No, I don't want to go to hell for this.

Wth dude don't leave me hanging, I didn't get to read that

It's a bad story in Fanfics. The only even remotely correctly handled thing about it is the stuff that blows up. The author hangs with the wrong crowd, and is himself the wrong crowd. If you want a war story on this forum I'll recommend you a much better one instead, but it won't be great literature.

Anyway, I think giga's standards are pretty low, or he's setting them pretty low. But we need more information.

I find myself doing that more often recently, because if I don't, well everything else just appears lack luster in comparison.

The best way I can describe it is this, the first Anime I had ever seen was Ghost in the Shell, up until that point I had never watched any anime, at all.

Suffice to say, I find my self disliking almost all other anime series, the only one I can sit down and enjoy, is cowboy bebop.

...I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean "everything else just appears lackluster in comparison?" Compared to what?

[Stark]

He may well just be really narrow in vision; if he watches 'anime' and then dislikes all 'anime' that isn't like that one 'anime' that is his benchmark, he's like people who insist all science fiction should be Star Trek. Shroom's right, he needs to actually be open to new experiences.

And not, you know, 'value military violence comedy because I am a warrior'.

There's a whole world of literature and imaginative experiences to share with others out there, kid. Just stop thinking good taste is something you choose.

[gigabytelord]

There's a very bad sort of artist out there, who creates poor art and spices it up with explosions to make it look cool to excitable people. Watching or reading too much of it can make you look foolish: imagine the sentence "Michael Bay is the best director ever."

That sentence is cringe worthy, in fact I'm cringing right now because I have a friend who believes that.

Man hearing you talk about stretching your imagination, and then about how much you like explosions because you're from a warrior culture is hilarious.

I never once said that, in fact I didn't even hint at it

Foundation by Isaac Asimov
Neuromancer by William Gibson
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

Noted.

...I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean "everything else just appears lackluster in comparison?" Compared to what?

Lets just say the very next one I watched was sailor moon... it just went down hill from there.

He may well just be really narrow in vision; if he watches 'anime' and then dislikes all 'anime' that isn't like that one 'anime' that is his benchmark, he's like people who insist all science fiction should be Star Trek. Shroom's right, he needs to actually be open to new experiences.

That's the point of this thread... suggestions for new experiences.

And not, you know, 'value military violence comedy because I am a warrior'.

Oh please, I'm 5'5, 160 pounds and work at an IT company, there's nothing about me that even remotely whispers "I am a warrior!!", hell the last time I fired a shotgun it knocked me on my ass.

[Simon_Jester]

There's a very bad sort of artist out there, who creates poor art and spices it up with explosions to make it look cool to excitable people. Watching or reading too much of it can make you look foolish: imagine the sentence "Michael Bay is the best director ever."

That sentence is cringe worthy, in fact I'm cringing right now because I have a friend who believes that.

Then remember, avoid becoming that person. You can read explosion-filled nonsense, but you must know and understand, and know what's bad about it. Your perceptions must be broad, so that you can see more than just the Baysplosions.

...I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean "everything else just appears lackluster in comparison?" Compared to what?

Lets just say the very next one I watched was sailor moon... it just went down hill from there.

He may well just be really narrow in vision; if he watches 'anime' and then dislikes all 'anime' that isn't like that one 'anime' that is his benchmark, he's like people who insist all science fiction should be Star Trek. Shroom's right, he needs to actually be open to new experiences.

That's the point of this thread... suggestions for new experiences.

True. It's just important that we're all on the same page about this- about why you look for things, and whether you're using the right criteria to judge. It would do us no good to recommend good things to you, only for you to reject them because they're not identical to what you already read.

And not, you know, 'value military violence comedy because I am a warrior'.

Oh please, I'm 5'5, 160 pounds and work at an IT company, there's nothing about me that even remotely whispers "I am a warrior!!", hell the last time I fired a shotgun it knocked me on my ass.

Exactly, so identifying endlessly with war and warfare is silly. There are good stories about war, but also about other things that are not-war.

[madd0ct0r]

Foundation series you might like, Hitchhikers Guide to the galaxy everyone likes (especially the first book, the 4th and 5th were a bit patchy).

W40k books, unless you actually play I'd recommend staying away from. I've tried a few and the constant explosions gave me a headache.

Ian M Banks - Culture books can be quite good, there's a few you might like.

also Schlock Mercenary.

[gigabytelord]

Foundation series you might like, Hitchhikers Guide to the galaxy everyone likes (especially the first book, the 4th and 5th were a bit patchy).
W40k books, unless you actually play I'd recommend staying away from. I've tried a few and the constant explosions gave me a headache.
Ian M Banks - Culture books can be quite good, there's a few you might like.
also Schlock Mercenary.

Roger, also I have played wh40k, my room mates sort of goaded me into, even then I picked the Tau, which by most accounts is the least magical race in 40k, if that's even possible.
btw my now ex-room mate has quite literally two entire book cases, 4x6 ft, filled with 40k books, it's kind of scary.

[Tierras Quemadas]

Have you tried the classic military SF? Starship Troopers goes without saying, but Armor and The Forever War are also worth reading.

If you want to expand your tastes, try Cryptonomicon, A Canticle for Leibowitz, or The Sparrow.

Or if you want something more action oriented, go for Hyperion, The Heritage Trilogy or Dread Empire's Fall.

[gigabytelord]

Have you tried the classic military SF? Starship Troopers goes without saying, but Armor and The Forever War are also worth reading.
If you want to expand your tastes, try Cryptonomicon, A Canticle for Leibowitz, or The Sparrow.
Or if you want something more action oriented, go for Hyperion, The Heritage Trilogy or Dread Empire's Fall.

Thanks I'll take a look at those, And I've already read the The Heritage Trilogy, several times actually, I thought it was a great trilogy.

EDIT II: Now that I've thought about it, I've read all three of those trilogies by Ian Douglas, in fact after I read it I realized that Chicago had been destroyed in yet another fictional work, seriously? what is it with near future or sci-fi writers always finding a way to destroy LA or Chicago?