Doctor Chuck

[Ahriman238]

This week, Chuck at Sfdebris is covering the End of Time and the Elventh Hour as part of his Doctor Who reviews. Out with the old, in with the new.

End of Time pt 1.

[Ahriman238]

And... End of Time part 2 followed by the Elventh Hour.

I wonder if all three were requested by the same person?

[Crazedwraith]

Chuck is far too generous to end of time but his Eleventh Hour review was quite good.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think he's more or less right about End of Time. Its got moments of excellence in between long stretches of silliness and mediocrity.

[Eternal_Freedom]

And... End of Time part 2 followed by the Elventh Hour.

I wonder if all three were requested by the same person?

They weren't, it says as much in the opening sequences

[Bright]

There is literally only one episode of Doctor Who I hate more than "The End of Time," and that's the one that made me quit watching the series - "Let's Kill Hitler." I'm not saying these two are the absolute worst, but they do create the most antipathy from me.

"The End of Time" is just a masterpiece of crappy, idiotic storytelling. I don't even care about the eye-rolling sentimentality, bits like the Master hopping around like a lunatic hobo and the Time Lords standing around and letting the Doctor pick between several options of stopping them at leisure are flat-out retarded.

[Ahriman238]

They weren't, it says as much in the opening sequences

Yeah, I'm observant. Probably he wanted to get all three requests out of the way at once.

I admit to liking the idea that the Doctor, immediatly after saving the world turns around and sacrifices his 'life' (as Ten anyway) for a funny old man. Because that's just how the Doctor rolls. I can forgive the sentimentality, as I understand it they set out to make a big deal of the regeneration largely because RTD remembered the show making a huge deal out of it when he was a kid.

Other thanj that, it was silly (but it's a silly show) and largely pointless. And I still refuse to buy that Tim Dalton's character was the genuine Rassilon.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Dalton was really wasted in this story. I could have easily bought him as atime Lord, even the Lord President, just not as a comically evil "we'll blow up the universe" guy. Damnit.

[Ahriman238]

Dalton was really wasted in this story. I could have easily bought him as atime Lord, even the Lord President, just not as a comically evil "we'll blow up the universe" guy. Damnit.

Why not? He almost killed the Bond franchise.

Actually, I was thinking more in terms that the man who constructed an elaborate trap to eliminate any time lord who tried to become an immortal tyrant would want to destroy the entire universe (and casually execute other time lords) purely out of concern for his own life. Does that strike nayone else as more than faintly ridiculous?

[El Moose Monstero]

For me, End of Time was Stolen Earth / Journey's End's little brother, everything negative you find in End of Time, you can find in greater quantities in SE/JE. You had a previously feared enemy being treated like the Borg on voyager, scaled up but scaled down at the same time, you had all the cameos, everyone brought back together, even the irritating ones (90% of all RTD characters were irritating), a disappointing buildup from the previous series and frankly awful resolutions and plot. I'd be interested to see if Chuck is as considerate to SE/JE as he was to EoT.

However, I did very much appreciate Chuck's point about fairy tales - that was an interesting and very legitimate point which I'd not thought about before.

[Ahriman238]

Ah, apparently it's a Doctor Who Theme month. Continuing with Vincent and the Doctor and finishing this Wednesday with the Doctor's Wife.

[Ahriman238]

The Doctor's Wife is up. I hadn't known the episode was written by Neil Gaiman but... now that I know, I feel like I really should have noticed before.

[Ahriman238]

Chuck's doing a section on the Fourth Doctor's run, specifically the first semi-linked stories. Ark in Space is up, The Sontaran Experiment follows, and Genesis of the Daleks is in four days.

I confess the only Colin Baker stories I've seen are Genesis of the Daleks, Pyramids of Mars, and the alien plant in the arctic one.

[Stark]

Man, that's pretty embarrassing.

So did people pay for these episodes in the hope of finding something redeeming in them or what?

[Isolder74]

Chuck's doing a section on the Fourth Doctor's run, specifically the first semi-linked stories. Ark in Space is up, The Sontaran Experiment follows, and Genesis of the Daleks is in four days.

I confess the only Colin Baker stories I've seen are Genesis of the Daleks, Pyramids of Mars, and the alien plant in the arctic one.

That's TOM Baker. Colin was # 6.

the 4th Doctor had some of the best storylines ever on the show.

[Ahriman238]

I stand corrected. The only COLIN Baker episode I've ever seen was the trial one. Sort of convinced me not to look any further into his run.

Anywho Genesis of the Daleks is up. I liked most of the story when I saw it, though I did come by it retroactively. I really liked the atmosphere of it even when I had to keep from laughing at the goofy Mutos and the giant clams.

What I didn't like so much was the pat ending where the Doctor claims the Daleks are a force of good in the universe too. He brought it up earlier when fiddling with the wires, how ancient enemies have made peace (so they can avoid extermination. It rarely works out for them) because of the Daleks and so on. That felt like a cop out, in an episode that had been doing so well at avoiding them. Well, that's my two cents anyway.

[Stark]

God, grow a backbone. Its the internet, you don't have to follow your opinions with softening escape clauses. Heaps of people hate the message of Genesis, but I don't think most of them really know what it is because they're idiots who think the Doctor is speaking to them when he's clearly speaking to himself.

[Ahriman238]

Of course the Doctor is talking to himself, more than the audience or his companions anyway, but it still feels like he's reaching for an excuse not to do it.

[Gandalf]

Of course the Doctor is talking to himself, more than the audience or his companions anyway, but it still feels like he's reaching for an excuse not to do it.

You say "person has trouble committing genocide" as though it's a bad thing.

[Stark]

Totally; he does the same thing in Parting of the Ways too. Turns out, he's not a callous mass murderer and sending him was a stupid idea from the get-go. I like to think of the Time Lord he talks to as Dylan from Predator. You made trouble about the cover story - you're the only one that can do it. PUSHING TOO MANY PENCILS.

This stuff is called 'character' and 'drama'. :V

[Darksider]

with regards to Parting of the ways, I've always understood why the doctor made the decision that he did in the end, but i've never been able to, I don't know, Agree with it?

I mean the way they played up the Daleks in the story (and this was really the fist Dr. Who story I got into, so all I knew about the Daleks beforehand was what i'd seen on SDN.) it basically seemed like a choice of "kill the daleks" or "daleks destroy the universe." It never really felt like the Doctor was saving anyone by not pushing the button at the end, it was just something he did because his ninth incarnation was basically completely fucked up from the Time War. It always seemed like, if a more rational and well-adjusted version of the Doctor was in the same situation, he would've acted differently.

[Stark]

Drama isn't about 'agreeing with it' once you turn five. If all you look for is validation for your own existing ideas or agreement with your own beliefs, why not just talk to yourself? Your breakdown of the options before the Doctor highlights a complete ignorance of context, character, and consequence.

Its frankly fucking sad - FUCKING SAD - that you honestly have to think to yourself 'if he wasn't horribly traumatised by his previous genocide he would have genocided no worries' because you simply can't internalise the idea that a fictional character would have different values to you. You see what happens, and you have to explain it away because you don't like it. Its not just a superficial or childish way to look at art, but actively ignores or covers up the meaning that you experienced but chose to repress.

[Darksider]

would you care to explain this "meaning" I apparently missed because I disagree with allowing the entire universe to die at Dalek hands?

[Stark]

Putting aside you inventing that outcome (and, amusingly, have been emotionally manipulated into a false dilemma like the Doctor, without the excuse of PTSD), he made a choice. He chose to be a 'coward' rather than a 'killer' because he couldn't live with being a killer. You apparently reject this, despite being aware of it, because you believe it is 'wrong' and that this causes you some kind of anxiety.

He (similarly) made a 'wrong' decision in Genesis, and during the Time War, and over and over during his life. Every time he chooses to be a killer he suffers, until in the Time War it basically drives him insane and he would rather be dead. You know all this... but can't get past 'but it's wrong I don't agree' and simply experience it.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As Chuck pointed out, in Genesis he isn't just considering committing genocide, he's also messing with history on an enormous scale, something that was drilled into him as "you must not do" for all his lives. That's gotta weigh pretty heavily on a Time Lord.