Hammer & Anvil (40K) (Yes Spoilers)

[Aaron MkII]

Why?

Why the fuck do I read the Battle Sister novels? There absolute garbage and the BS's are totally unrelatable and unlikable.

The saving grace of this one though was what it showed us about the Necrons, along with the Necron farseer type guy telling the Tech Priest that no alliance would be possible because the Necrons are to far above humanity.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

What? I liked Faith & Fire. What is so objectionable about them?

[Grumman]

I also liked Faith & Fire, and was planning on buying Hammer & Anvil when it was next convenient, so it would be appreciated if Aaron could say whether it's up to that level for someone who just liked reading about Verity and Miriya's adventures.

[Optimus Metallus]

Yeah, Faith & Fire was great. So I take it this book is a sequel?

[Connor MacLeod]

I suspect it has more to do with James Swallow's style of writing, which differs quite a bit from other 40K Author's and tends to be a bit jarring. Then again most of the sisters in the SoB novels tend to irritate me as well (I like Miriya and Verity, but that tends to be it.)

I'm curious to see what Aaron says, given I read it not long ago. It wasn't a great novel (I liked Faith and Fire better.) but it wasn't a horrid novel either (Blood Gorgons and Flesh and Iron fell flat far more.)

[Aaron MkII]

I also liked Faith & Fire, and was planning on buying Hammer & Anvil when it was next convenient, so it would be appreciated if Aaron could say whether it's up to that level for someone who just liked reading about Verity and Miriya's adventures.

It's probably a better novel then Faith & Fire actually, the story is more interesting and becomes a fight for survival, so theres lees time for the Sister to be annoying pious harpies (yeah I know thats their whole deal) and if your interested in the Necrons then it's definitely worth a read. It goes into a fair amount of detail on their present society, what their up to and how they operate.

My distaste for the sisters is that they seem to actively harm their own cause with their bull headedness and attitude. I get that their supposed to be extremely pious but shit like refusing to listen to Verity because she's a nurse or Miriya because she was demoted is just fucking stupid. Now I don't mind those two but the Sister Superior and her second are just cunts. The XO especially is almost unbearable.

[Grumman]

...and if your interested in the Necrons then it's definitely worth a read. It goes into a fair amount of detail on their present society, what their up to and how they operate.

I do not like the sound of that. I would have preferred they remain shrouded in the fog of war, like the old Necrons.

[Sidewinder]

...and if your interested in the Necrons then it's definitely worth a read. It goes into a fair amount of detail on their present society, what their up to and how they operate.

I do not like the sound of that. I would have preferred they remain shrouded in the fog of war, like the old Necrons.

I second that. The 3rd Edition Necrons were utterly alien, devoid of any qualities a human shares, and all the more terrifying because of this. The new ones might as well be metal humans, for all the mortal desires they have. (Seriously, Necrons committing the sin of Pride? Envy? Wrath? What's next, Necron Lust?)

[Aaron MkII]

...and if your interested in the Necrons then it's definitely worth a read. It goes into a fair amount of detail on their present society, what their up to and how they operate.

I do not like the sound of that. I would have preferred they remain shrouded in the fog of war, like the old Necrons.

So this isn't a one off then? Its in other sources?

[Grumman]

...and if your interested in the Necrons then it's definitely worth a read. It goes into a fair amount of detail on their present society, what their up to and how they operate.

I do not like the sound of that. I would have preferred they remain shrouded in the fog of war, like the old Necrons.

So this isn't a one off then? Its in other sources?

That's correct. The 5th edition codex, The Fall of Damnos and now this have all shown a distinct departure from their previous depiction. The old necrons would not tell a Techpriest that they would not ally, they would simply go on killing Imperials. They would not threaten an Imperial world with punishment if they did not abandon the planet, they would simply kill all who were too stupid to escape. And they definitely wouldn't trade with Imperials (and Imperials wouldn't trade with them).

Oh, and the 5th edition Blood Angels codex, of course, with Blood Angels and Necrons being on the same battlefield and not going back to killing each other when the Tyranids were defeated.

[Aaron MkII]

Oh...i had hoped it was a one off. I liked the look but i prefer the unknowable Necrons.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Indeed. The days of inscrutable, soulless abominations bent on the horrifying, inexorable annihilation of all life as we know it, powered by technology so far beyond the ken of mere man that to know it is to know an unknowable abyss of insanity are... well, gone. They're merchants now!

[Sidewinder]

Oh...i had hoped it was a one off. I liked the look but i prefer the unknowable Necrons.

Blame Matthew Ward for the clusterfuck that is 5th Edition Necrons, as well as much of the Ultramarines HATE on 4chan.

[Sidewinder]

And they definitely wouldn't trade with Imperials (and Imperials wouldn't trade with them).

They're merchants now!

I'm assuming this is described in Hammer and Anvil (I've yet to read the novel), but what goods can the Imperium offer a Necron, that will NOT be seized by force, on the Necrons' general principles? What goods can the Necrons be willing to part with, confident the offered item will NOT tip the balance-of-power in the Imperium's favor? (Before anyone protests, the Ciaphas Cain novels repeatedly describe the AdMech as attempting to seize Necron technology. I doubt the Techpriests would hesitate to reverse-engineer it.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah the Sparrow novels tend to be pretty pedantic when it comes ot the religious zealotry and blindness (which irritated me a bit about Hammer and Anvil) but that's also something that is supposed to be part of their nature - unfailing and relentless faith. Its pretty hard to walk that sort of line and not slip into dogma (some can. There's still sister Aescarion.)

On the other hand, there's the depictions in stuff like Flesh and Iron or Redemption Corps which are all pretty dumb (esp flesh and Iron)

Also I must be one of the few people in the world who actually like much of what 5th edition did to the Necrons. I never particularily cared for the 'undead robots who collect souls for the thirsty space vampires' because it had no real depth or character. Tomb Kings isn't a MASSIVE change or neccesarily the best, but by 40K standards its probably better than what they could have done. and there's still room for the 'Feeding Space Vampires' angle too.

[Black Admiral]

Yeah the Sparrow novels tend to be pretty pedantic when it comes ot the religious zealotry and blindness (which irritated me a bit about Hammer and Anvil) but that's also something that is supposed to be part of their nature - unfailing and relentless faith. Its pretty hard to walk that sort of line and not slip into dogma (some can. There's still sister Aescarion.)

To be honest, Counter's about the only Black Library author who, IMO, really gets Sisters of Battle (well, I suppose Nick Kyme could be argued that way, but he's only ever written them once). And if he'd written a Sisters of Battle series instead of the Soul Drinkers books, Counter would probably be a lot fonder regarded.

On the other hand, there's the depictions in stuff like Flesh and Iron or Redemption Corps which are all pretty dumb (esp flesh and Iron)

Yeah, Redemption Corps' portrayal is pretty damn bad, but I think Flesh And Iron takes it. Nothing like fully armoured Celestians losing to a starving, half-naked disease-ridden mob that barely outnumbers them 4:3.

[Aaron MkII]

Lets just not talk about Henry Zou or Redemption Corps.

Blame Matthew Ward for the clusterfuck that is 5th Edition Necrons, as well as much of the Ultramarines HATE on 4chan.

oh, that Matt Ward. Conners told me about him but I'm a Guard guy so...

[Connor MacLeod]

Lets just not talk about Henry Zou or Redemption Corps.

WHAT? You mean you think 40K didn't need more mentions of Picatinny rails or metrics I think my favorite was .45 caliber being a 'low power' or 'small' round in 40K or something.

oh, that Matt Ward. Conners told me about him but I'm a Guard guy so...

There's always 6th edition.

[Connor MacLeod]

To be honest, Counter's about the only Black Library author who, IMO, really gets Sisters of Battle (well, I suppose Nick Kyme could be argued that way, but he's only ever written them once). And if he'd written a Sisters of Battle series instead of the Soul Drinkers books, Counter would probably be a lot fonder regarded.

WEll about the only facton that has been written less about than Sisters in the Imperium would be the Arbites. There's what? 5-6 authors who have actually written about Sisters? Counter, Abnett (who doesnt really count since she wrote the only Chaos sistr of battle) Kyme (who I dont remember writing such), Swallow, Zou, and Sanders. Of the group, Counter did the best, and Zou and Sanders did the worst.

Redemption corps and Flesh and Iron (and Blood Gorgons) suffered from the problem it was trying to write 40K as if it were a baen milscifi novel or some weird FPS. Although Zou might have done better had he focused on the 'horrors/atmosphere' of war thing rather than trying to ape baen milscifi. That's why Emperor's Mercy still stands better of the three works he did, I think.

[Aaron MkII]

Lets just not talk about Henry Zou or Redemption Corps.

WHAT? You mean you think 40K didn't need more mentions of Picatinny rails or metrics I think my favorite was .45 caliber being a 'low power' or 'small' round in 40K or something.

oh, that Matt Ward. Conners told me about him but I'm a Guard guy so...

There's always 6th edition.

Actually I dislike Zou because of the wacky political/moral stuff he slides in.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually I dislike Zou because of the wacky political/moral stuff he slides in.

You mean stuff like Baeder's justifications for turning to Chaos? Or are you referring to the idiot Real Estate Broker Priest?

[Aaron MkII]

Both, though Baeder at least had a reason other then "I'm a cock"

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah. The problem with both is that they're largely contrivances to drive the plot. Baeder has to be seen as heroically turning to chaos or being forced to, but its done in such a hamfisted manner that the Ecclesiarhc needed a waxed mustache to twirl going MUAHAHAHA as he laid out his plans. He didn't really even *feel* all that religious - more like an Administratum drone really.

I think thats one of the problems with James Swallow writing sisters. He's not the best when it comes to 'Faith' based things or chaos, and one of the core elements of the Sisters of battle is pretty much 'faith.' So when he writes most of them (except IMHO Verity or Miriya) they tend to come across as being brutish and unsophisticated and generally ignorant. Which is probably what some would feel appropriate for 40K, but it feels more like a caricature.

It actually reminds me alot of Ben Counter writing the Soul Drinkers really. Which is ironic because he should have stayed writing Aescarion rather than Sarpedon.

That also reminds me. Goto wrote a soroitas archeologist type (dialoguis) for the second DoW novel who wasn't half bad. Sandy Mitchell also had the more liberal Sister who played poker in 'Cain's Last Stand' - I like that one just for what she sort of represents.

[Aaron MkII]

I kinda like to think that the Cain books represent the more liberal side of 40K but Mitchell is really good at making characters relatable and even the Reclaimers had a bit of humanity to them.

I'm not sure where Zou is going with his books either, are they supposed to be a loosely connected series?

[Connor MacLeod]

Cain is not just the more liberal side, its the lighter and less serious side. Even though it gets repeititive (which it does) it refuses to take itself too seriously and that's part of its charm. That was one of the strengths of Bill King's novels as well - it could be serious but it didn't take itself too seriously.

I think Zou was trying to go for a 'Gaunt's Ghosts' emulation with the whole Bastion Wars thing (his version of Sabbat Worlds) but that might have fallen through. Either they dropped him as an author or he's been too busy to write for them lately.

One thing I always wished Mitchell would do is keep up with his Dark Heresy novels. The FFG stuff is a good source to be drawing story inspiration from. I'd love to see a novel series based on Rogue Trader too (maybe get ADB to write it.) Deathwtach... maybe. I dont think we need more Space Marines.

I'd actually like to see more Inquisitor Czevak. Atlas Infernal was far better than REdemption Corps was, IMHO. (Radical Inquisitor.)