Cowl tries to argue B5 weaponry

[Block]

Your analysis of B5 is flawed. The Centauri and Minbari could still both kick the shit out of the EA.

[Thanas]

Yeah. The entire premise of B5 is basically "Humans surviving only due to the grace of the Minbari. Humans being overly arrogant etc. is pretty much well established throughout the series as well.

[Cowl]

Your analysis of B5 is flawed. The Centauri and Minbari could still both kick the shit out of the EA.

I would agree with you on the part of the Minbari, but the Centauri? They couldn't even handle the Narn without Shadow assistance, and the Narn have worse tech than the EA.

[Stofsk]

Your analysis of B5 is flawed. The Centauri and Minbari could still both kick the shit out of the EA.

I would agree with you on the part of the Minbari, but the Centauri? They couldn't even handle the Narn without Shadow assistance, and the Narn have worse tech than the EA.

Haha... what?

-The centauri could handle the narn without the Shadow's assistance, but they didn't have the stomach for a fair fight. Not to mention the entire war against them was a sham spurred on by Londo's ambitions in the first place. That's why Londo went to the Shadows - not because the centauri couldn't defeat the narn by themselves (lol) but because Mordin had put the offer out there and Londo seized it. The Shadows being involved means absolute dick as to the military capabilities of the Centauri Republic. Most of what the Shadows provided was actually intel - i.e. where to send what forces, and in what numbers to achieve total victory. In 'Acts of Sacrifice' at the start there were two of those smaller centauri warships that look like two crescents stuck together going at it with one narn heavy cruiser, and the latter was completely outmatched and lost the fight (mainly because it refused to retreat and decided to sacrifice itself so that a civilian transport could escape).

-The narn have worse tech than the EA? Uh no they don't - I don't know where you're getting that from but they're at the very least equal to Earth, but more likely they're a bit better. The EA is on the bottom of the pile amongst the major races, and the only reason they're not a minor race is because they went out and did aggressive expansion and have more numbers than the minor races do (that and because they came in on the side of the League during the dilgar invasion, which bought them huge political capital in which to conduct the aforementioned aggressive expansion). In 'In The Beginning', it was shown that the EA actually went to the narn during the war with the minbari to buy better weapons tech off them for fuck's sake.

Have you even watched the show?

[Thanas]

Your analysis of B5 is flawed. The Centauri and Minbari could still both kick the shit out of the EA.

I would agree with you on the part of the Minbari, but the Centauri? They couldn't even handle the Narn without Shadow assistance, and the Narn have worse tech than the EA.

The Narn are also much more powerful and numerous than the EA. Meanwhile, a single Centauri battlecruiser could go toe to toe with both B5 and a Narn cruiser.

[Stofsk]

^ That's probably not a great example because Sheridan ordered a time-on-target which completely trashed that battlecruiser. Also that narn cruiser wasn't really a player in the fight, and it was being protected by a squadron of Star Furies.

[Cowl]

-The centauri could handle the narn without the Shadow's assistance, but they didn't have the stomach for a fair fight. Not to mention the entire war against them was a sham spurred on by Londo's ambitions in the first place. That's why Londo went to the Shadows - not because the centauri couldn't defeat the narn by themselves (lol) but because Mordin had put the offer out there and Londo seized it. The Shadows being involved means absolute dick as to the military capabilities of the Centauri Republic. Most of what the Shadows provided was actually intel - i.e. where to send what forces, and in what numbers to achieve total victory. In 'Acts of Sacrifice' at the start there were two of those smaller centauri warships that look like two crescents stuck together going at it with one narn heavy cruiser, and the latter was completely outmatched and lost the fight (mainly because it refused to retreat and decided to sacrifice itself so that a civilian transport could escape).

The Narn heavy cruiser wasn't outmatched, just outmaneuvered while operating on different tactical priorities. Those Vorchan attack cruisers are agile, cheap and disposable, but have practically zero armor. They could be easily taken out by as little as a couple of fighter craft. The Primus has a little more armor, but is mostly a paper tiger as I recall. (I'm basing my views on a cursory familiarity with the B5 RPG tech specs.)

And the fact of the matter is that the Narn could have held their own for an extended period of time, even with the Centauri being assisted with game-changing intel from the Shadows. It finally took the direct involvement of the Shadows to tip the balance in favor of the Centauri. And it isn't unreasonable to assume that the Narn would have brought the Centauri to their knees, as after all, their collective raison d'etre was to bring the Centauri Republic to account for their crimes against the Narn people.

-The narn have worse tech than the EA? Uh no they don't - I don't know where you're getting that from but they're at the very least equal to Earth, but more likely they're a bit better. The EA is on the bottom of the pile amongst the major races, and the only reason they're not a minor race is because they went out and did aggressive expansion and have more numbers than the minor races do (that and because they came in on the side of the League during the dilgar invasion, which bought them huge political capital in which to conduct the aforementioned aggressive expansion). In 'In The Beginning', it was shown that the EA actually went to the narn during the war with the minbari to buy better weapons tech off them for fuck's sake.

The Narn don't even have rotational gravity, instead they use ship momentum and for the remainder rely on the inherent physiological hardiness of Narn soldiers to withstand the prolonged effects of a zero-G environments. Their reverse-engineered Centauri weapons are also on par with EA weaponry.

And let's not forget that the EA has vast experience in dealing with technologically superior adversaries, such as the Dilgar and the Minbari. In the case of the Centauri the technological differences are but minor, extending to anti-gravity technology and perhaps better long-range weapons. For the remainder EA ships are better armored and have superior fighters, with weapons just as lethal, if not more so.

[Stofsk]

The Narn heavy cruiser wasn't outmatched, just outmaneuvered while operating on different tactical priorities. Those Vorchan attack cruisers are agile, cheap and disposable, but have practically zero armor. They could be easily taken out by as little as a couple of fighter craft. The Primus has a little more armor, but is mostly a paper tiger as I recall. (I'm basing my views on a cursory familiarity with the B5 RPG tech specs.)

Who gives a fuck about some RPG sourcebook? The show begs to differ. Your assertion that the narn heavy cruiser wasn't outmatched is based on nothing - that ship was seen getting destroyed by two Vorchan cruisers and by definition that means it was outmatched.

We see Vorchan cruisers wreck shit in season five. I will give you the point that the Primus is a paper tiger.

And the fact of the matter is that the Narn could have held their own for an extended period of time, even with the Centauri being assisted with game-changing intel from the Shadows. It finally took the direct involvement of the Shadows to tip the balance in favor of the Centauri. And it isn't unreasonable to assume that the Narn would have brought the Centauri to their knees, as after all, their collective raison d'etre was to bring the Centauri Republic to account for their crimes against the Narn people.

Based on what? What's-his-name, the narn general who sees G'Kar in 'The Long Twilight Struggle' admits the war is going down the shitter for the narn, so much so they gambled everything on a near suicidal attack on the centauri's main forward supply base. That's the effect of Morden's 'game-changing intel'. The Shadows only entered into it at the start - where they destroyed a space station and one heavy cruiser - and the end, the latter was only there to mop up the entire narn fleet while the centauri one goes to bomb the narn homeworld into submission.

Basically the show does not render itself anywhere near to your interpretation.

The Narn don't even have rotational gravity, instead they use ship momentum and for the remainder rely on the inherent physiological hardiness of Narn soldiers to withstand the prolonged effects of a zero-G environments.

Irrelevant. The narn are physically hardier than humans so they can get away with not having rotating habitats for their ship crews. PS the EA doesn't have spin habitats on two of their large heavy cruisers, the Hyperion and the Nova. And BTW the Omega's spin section is a gigantic structural weak point where one hit upon it has a XO tell Major Ryan that another hit will result in the entire spin section being disabled forcing all the crew to go zero-grav. Not to mention other problems in the design.

Their reverse-engineered Centauri weapons are also on par with EA weaponry.

Proof of this?

And let's not forget that the EA has vast experience in dealing with technologically superior adversaries, such as the Dilgar and the Minbari. In the case of the Centauri the technological differences are but minor, extending to anti-gravity technology and perhaps better long-range weapons. For the remainder EA ships are better armored and have superior fighters, with weapons just as lethal, if not more so.

Nonsense. First of all, the EA's 'vast experience' in dealing with technologically advanced adversaries wouldn't help them against the centauri - any more than experience with the dilgar helped in their fight against the minbari. Seriously I have no fucking idea what point you're even making. Arrogance after the success against the dilgar lead to the disastrous first contact encounter with the minbari!

Secondly, you dismiss anti-gravity technology but this would be a huge boon for human ships as it would mean increasing their endurance and not having to be near to a base to rotate crews before they start encountering physiological effects from prolonged zero-gee. The long range weaponry isn't even a point I have seen from the show, but whatever - if so, that is a hell of an advantage over the EA.

Thirdly, your point about EA ships having better armour sounds like bullshit to me. Basis for this? And you just say that EA weapons are 'just as lethal, if not more so'. Again, what is the basis for this assertion? Finally you claim that Star Furies are superior to Sentri class fighters - not only did I not see these two fighters go at it in the show, but in 'The Long Night' Sheridan explicitly points out to Zeta Squadron that centauri pilots are physically superior to human ones, because they can take more gees, and Sentri fighters can be put into hard manoeuvres through autopilot and pull off stunts that Star Fury pilots and craft can't, all they can do is try and compensate for it.

[Thanas]

The Primus is a pretty good weapon platform IMO. It constantly holds it own and is so far the only ship to carry the mass drivers.


That being said, I suspect Cowl is basing all of this on the godawful RPGS, according to whom the Centauri actually have over a dozen ships larger than the Primus (LOL) and assign all sort of insane fiat numbers to them.

[Cowl]

Who gives a fuck about some RPG sourcebook? The show begs to differ. Your assertion that the narn heavy cruiser wasn't outmatched is based on nothing - that ship was seen getting destroyed by two Vorchan cruisers and by definition that means it was outmatched.

Straczynski gave his official endorsement I believe, and he even used one of their design elements in the show or movie.

We see Vorchan cruisers wreck shit in season five.

League of Non-Allied World ships.

Based on what? What's-his-name, the narn general who sees G'Kar in 'The Long Twilight Struggle' admits the war is going down the shitter for the narn, so much so they gambled everything on a near suicidal attack on the centauri's main forward supply base. That's the effect of Morden's 'game-changing intel'. The Shadows only entered into it at the start - where they destroyed a space station and one heavy cruiser - and the end, the latter was only there to mop up the entire narn fleet while the centauri one goes to bomb the narn homeworld into submission.

I don't see how this would necessarily dispute my claim. As I said, game-changing intel, and direct involvement in order to tip the balance in favor of the Centauri.

Irrelevant. The narn are physically hardier than humans so they can get away with not having rotating habitats for their ship crews. PS the EA doesn't have spin habitats on two of their large heavy cruisers, the Hyperion and the Nova. And BTW the Omega's spin section is a gigantic structural weak point where one hit upon it has a XO tell Major Ryan that another hit will result in the entire spin section being disabled forcing all the crew to go zero-grav. Not to mention other problems in the design.

Structural weak point? You say that it would result in zero-grav, something that the crew would have undoubtedly trained for.

Their reverse-engineered Centauri weapons are also on par with EA weaponry.

Both of them make use of "Twin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannons" which have the exact same offensive stats. Which isn't surprising, seeing that the Narn shared their reverse-engineered tech with the EA during the Earth-Minbari war.

Nonsense. First of all, the EA's 'vast experience' in dealing with technologically advanced adversaries wouldn't help them against the centauri - any more than experience with the dilgar helped in their fight against the minbari. Seriously I have no fucking idea what point you're even making. Arrogance after the success against the dilgar lead to the disastrous first contact encounter with the minbari!

They were incapable of circumventing the Minbari stealth technology, which caused them to eventually lose the war. The war effort itself however led to the accumulation of vast amounts of experience, and raw military data, which eventually resulted in several new ship classes (amongst other things), including the Omega Destroyer. I don't see why you would want to discount such a paradigm shifting event in Earthforce history.

And the point was that the military arm of the Earth Alliance has been heavily reformed since their 'encounter' with the Minbari, not to mention battle-hardened. They're trained to fight a war against unbeatable odds. As a result, they would be more then capable of fighting a war against a Dilgar-esque race bereft of any noteworthy stealth-tech or military gumption.

Secondly, you dismiss anti-gravity technology but this would be a huge boon for human ships as it would mean increasing their endurance and not having to be near to a base to rotate crews before they start encountering physiological effects from prolonged zero-gee. The long range weaponry isn't even a point I have seen from the show, but whatever - if so, that is a hell of an advantage over the EA.

Yes, it would be a boon, but a boon eventually hampered by supply lines and repairs. Not that a Primus or Vorchan would have a long life expectancy in any prolonged military campaign against Earth Alliance.

Thirdly, your point about EA ships having better armour sounds like bullshit to me. Basis for this? And you just say that EA weapons are 'just as lethal, if not more so'. Again, what is the basis for this assertion? Finally you claim that Star Furies are superior to Sentri class fighters - not only did I not see these two fighters go at it in the show, but in 'The Long Night' Sheridan explicitly points out to Zeta Squadron that centauri pilots are physically superior to human ones, because they can take more gees, and Sentri fighters can be put into hard manoeuvres through autopilot and pull off stunts that Star Fury pilots and craft can't, all they can do is try and compensate for it.

Primus has an armour rating of '26'.
Omega Command Destroyer has a rating of '49'.
The G'quan has a rating of '36'.

And the Sentri, while fast and agile, is extremely fragile. One shot, and it's history. Star Furies have some durability to them.

The Primus is a pretty good weapon platform IMO. It constantly holds it own and is so far the only ship to carry the mass drivers.

Nice try but a primitive G'quan Class ship took out a Primus, and would have survived, had they not insisted on opening up a jump point.

[Connor MacLeod]

Offensive stats? You mean game stats? Surely you aren't using the RPG/B5 wars stuff game stats as fact.

Also while EA has demonstrated that their weaponry may be just as capable of doing damage to even the Minbari (In the BEginning, other sources.) B5 never really was about 'absorbing punishment' the way Star Wars or evne STar Trek was (hence the lack of magic shields, except for rare cases like the White Star.) It was about avoiding damage as much as you can (and reducing what damage you did take.) Defence grid/interception was very MUCH about this, except that you couldn't intercept every kind of weapon. It was also about endurance, how you used your weaponry (efficiency, precision, range and the like) and how good at avoidance you were. The Minbari's advnatages were that they were very hard to hit, had longer ranged weapons that were far more efficient at doing damage (basically cutting through their targets with precise, sustained beams, which coudln't be intercepted.) EA couldn't evne come close to matching that for most of the series. Gravitic drives gave them an advantage in manuverability as well, which played into their range/accuracy/efficiency of gunnery.

Furthermore we learned from 'legend of the rangers' that weapons arrays are particularily volatile targets which are always targeted (which makes sense from a good deal of what we saw from the series.) Again AVOIDING hits is where this is going to come in handy, rather than simply enduring them.

The Centauri have gunfire that overpenetrates like a motherfucker so it makes mockery of any armour (on Narn Cruisers, on White Stars, on Babylon 5's structure.) and they can sustain such an insane rate of fire they were able to outlast B5's upgraded defense grid interceptors. Even if Omegas had better armor (or were just tougher due to sheer bulk) the Centauri weapons could just blow the hell out of them with precision fire to the (exposed) heavy weapons or engines, and more than probably owuld overpenetrate like hell (even if it can't bypass the armour, which I am highly skeptical of.)

I'd also like to know which RPG books we're supposedly talking about, since I've got a good chunk of the B5 Wars stuff and even some of the Mongoose stuff and I'm pretty familiar with the various states (the B5 wars stuff is pretty consistent, and I know JMS considered it canon, but its pretty conservative - babtech conservative- when it comes to many of the capabilities. The mongoose stuff is diffrent but I've never found that stuff to be particularily consistent and I have no knoweldge of its canonicity.)

[Stofsk]

Who gives a fuck about some RPG sourcebook? The show begs to differ. Your assertion that the narn heavy cruiser wasn't outmatched is based on nothing - that ship was seen getting destroyed by two Vorchan cruisers and by definition that means it was outmatched.

Straczynski gave his official endorsement I believe, and he even used one of their design elements in the show or movie.

Provide a source for the above claims.

We see Vorchan cruisers wreck shit in season five.

League of Non-Allied World ships.

Also White Stars.

I don't see how this would necessarily dispute my claim. As I said, game-changing intel, and direct involvement in order to tip the balance in favor of the Centauri.

Then you're an idiot. Your claim was that the centauri couldn't win without help, i.e. that the shadow's involvement was the only way they could win. As it turned out, the shadow's provided intel and little else, other than right at the end of the conflict. Just before this we had a narn general give his frank, no-bullshit assessment of the war's progress with G'kar, and it wasn't good.That directly disputes your claim. You outright said that the Shadows 'tipped the balance'. A balance which didn't exist and was weighted in the centauri's favour anyway.

Structural weak point? You say that it would result in zero-grav, something that the crew would have undoubtedly trained for.

You're an idiot. Structural weak point = we see it in 'Severed Dreams' where the Alexander took a hit amidships and the XO was telling Major Ryan one more hit and the thing would be knocked out. Great design!

And the Omega-class bridge layout has the CO sit in a chair and everyone else standing at their consoles. That's going to be real good if the crew go under zero-gee. At least people were strapped into chairs on Hyperions.

They were incapable of circumventing the Minbari stealth technology, which caused them to eventually lose the war. The war effort itself however led to the accumulation of vast amounts of experience, and raw military data, which eventually resulted in several new ship classes (amongst other things), including the Omega Destroyer. I don't see why you would want to discount such a paradigm shifting event in Earthforce history.

And the point was that the military arm of the Earth Alliance has been heavily reformed since their 'encounter' with the Minbari, not to mention battle-hardened. They're trained to fight a war against unbeatable odds. As a result, they would be more then capable of fighting a war against a Dilgar-esque race bereft of any noteworthy stealth-tech or military gumption.

Yes, it would be a boon, but a boon eventually hampered by supply lines and repairs. Not that a Primus or Vorchan would have a long life expectancy in any prolonged military campaign against Earth Alliance.

Primus has an armour rating of '26'.
Omega Command Destroyer has a rating of '49'.
The G'quan has a rating of '36'.

Sounds like badly written RPG bullshit to me.

And the Sentri, while fast and agile, is extremely fragile. One shot, and it's history. Star Furies have some durability to them.

Yeah because Star Furies have NEVER exploded after getting hit once.

Also none of what you wrote even addressed the point I made about Sheridan's assessment of the Sentri and of centauri pilots.

Nice try but a primitive G'quan Class ship took out a Primus, and would have survived, had they not insisted on opening up a jump point.

Forget the Primus, two Vorchan cruisers took out a single G'quan cruiser without suffering any apparent losses.

[khursed]

I see Terra Nova is so popular that half the thread is now arguments about Babylon Five or Star Trek. Considering SDN kind of falls into the target audience category, I'd say this is a pretty good vindication for Fox making the call to kill it.

How dare you! Someone mentioned SG-1, and I am sure at some point someone mentioned that Terra Nova had boring teenager drama, good enough for me.

Now, I also have watched B5 multiple times, and I agree with the Centauri side of the argument. Earth would have in all probability been smashed in a repeat of the Minbari war had they fought against the Centauri, maybe we'd have suffered a few less loses, and inflicted a few more casualties, but overall never a doubt in my mind that barring a Deus Ex Machina intervention by the Vorlon or some other very powerful faction, Earth would kick the bucket if it came down to it.

As far as I understood it, the Centauri had only one rival for power, that being the Minbari if we do not count the Shadows and the Vorlons, or any other first ones.

My favorite part of the Centauri/Narn war, was when G'Kar was forced into buying back the weapons they sold to Earth in the previous war with the Minbari at a considerable marked up price.

If anything, the sheer elation and gratitude when G'Kar thought Earth had agreed to an alliance was heartwarming and showed exactly what he thought their chances of winning without help would be, which is devastating when we learn Earth will not help the Narns, and that they stand alone. We then realize they don't have a prayer against the Centauri.

[Thanas]

I don't see how this would necessarily dispute my claim. As I said, game-changing intel, and direct involvement in order to tip the balance in favor of the Centauri.

Then you're an idiot. Your claim was that the centauri couldn't win without help, i.e. that the shadow's involvement was the only way they could win. As it turned out, the shadow's provided intel and little else, other than right at the end of the conflict. Just before this we had a narn general give his frank, no-bullshit assessment of the war's progress with G'kar, and it wasn't good.That directly disputes your claim. You outright said that the Shadows 'tipped the balance'. A balance which didn't exist and was weighted in the centauri's favour anyway.

Indeed. Even right from the start of the series we are explicitly told that what's the Centauri holding back is not lack of capability, but political infighting and a lack to commit resources to what is known to be a non-existential threat. That right there also tells you something about the capabilities of the Centauri in that they don't consider losing one or two worlds a real threat.

Plus, the Centauri were able to hold their own against the Narn, the league of non-aligned worlds and the rangers for quite a long time, even with superior intel against them etc. Had it not been for the drakh, there is no reason not to assume the war would have ended in a stalemate eventually.

The Narn meanwhile are so over-militarized that they cannot hold a candle to the Centauri. Heck, before their capitulation the Narn General - as you say above, but allow me to elaborate to show just how wrong Cowl is - is explicitly telling him they are losing the war and that their only hope is to strike a supply depot to slow down the centauri advance. And they have to commit the majority of their forces to do so. BTW, intel for that was not supplied by the shadows, the code was cracked by the Centauri alone. When you have to use the majority of your forces to do something that does not limit the enemy advantage in a direct way and only serves to delay an offensive, then you pretty much have lost the war already.

Had the Centuari chosen to simply ambush the Narn and then attack on to their homeworld, the war would have ended in the same way. Had the Narn managed to destroy the supply depot they would still have been forced to surrender due to a huge fleet pounding their homeworld to rubble. The Shadow involvement in that war was very minimal considering.

[Cowl]

Also White Stars.

The same White Stars that wiped themselves out taking out Shadow-enhanced Omega Class destroyers. Remove the tech bonus from both, and you would have Vorchans wiping themselves out to take out Omega Class destroyers. But in this case, the Omega Class destroyers would have launched their fleet of Thurderbolts. What a couple of Vorchans are against a G'Quan class heavy cruiser (according to you), a couple of Thunderbolts would assuredly be to a Vorchan, seeing that it has little to no armour. And let's not forget that the Omega Class destroyer has a rather large fighter contingent in its hanger bays. I believe, significantly larger than any ship in its class.

Then you're an idiot. Your claim was that the centauri couldn't win without help, i.e. that the shadow's involvement was the only way they could win. As it turned out, the shadow's provided intel and little else, other than right at the end of the conflict. Just before this we had a narn general give his frank, no-bullshit assessment of the war's progress with G'kar, and it wasn't good.That directly disputes your claim. You outright said that the Shadows 'tipped the balance'. A balance which didn't exist and was weighted in the centauri's favour anyway.

You claimed that the Shadows were providing them with intelligence, and intelligence of ship movements and supply networks can win a war.

You're an idiot. Structural weak point = we see it in 'Severed Dreams' where the Alexander took a hit amidships and the XO was telling Major Ryan one more hit and the thing would be knocked out. Great design!

I could easily argue, based on the episode where Earthforce tries to retake Babylon 5, that the rotating section is one of the sturdiest parts of the Omega Class destroyer. Seeing that it was still rotating, despite the fact that the ship in question was spewing flames from every conceivable part, up until the point where it rammed its opponent.

And the Omega-class bridge layout has the CO sit in a chair and everyone else standing at their consoles. That's going to be real good if the crew go under zero-gee. At least people were strapped into chairs on Hyperions.

A design element which should hint towards the sturdy quality of this alleged 'structural weakpoint'.

They were incapable of circumventing the Minbari stealth technology, which caused them to eventually lose the war. The war effort itself however led to the accumulation of vast amounts of experience, and raw military data, which eventually resulted in several new ship classes (amongst other things), including the Omega Destroyer. I don't see why you would want to discount such a paradigm shifting event in Earthforce history.

And the point was that the military arm of the Earth Alliance has been heavily reformed since their 'encounter' with the Minbari, not to mention battle-hardened. They're trained to fight a war against unbeatable odds. As a result, they would be more then capable of fighting a war against a Dilgar-esque race bereft of any noteworthy stealth-tech or military gumption.

Earthforce came out stronger from the Earth-Minbari war. Its military apparatus was redesigned to give them a fighting chance against the Minbari. This would be the reason why a standard EA ship is so heavily armed/armored.

Yeah because Star Furies have NEVER exploded after getting hit once.

Omega Class destroyers make use of Thunderbolts. And even if they were carrying Star Furies, these would still be more effective against larger ships than Sentries.

Also none of what you wrote even addressed the point I made about Sheridan's assessment of the Sentri and of centauri pilots.

Sentries are mosquitos compared to Minbari fighters. Anti-fighter defenses would make short shrift of them. Thunderbolts are also infinitely more useful than Sentries, as they fully use strafing runs to maximum effect. They're in effect highly maneuverable sentry turrets, having the ability to blast any ship they strafe for the full duration of their run. Sentries on the other hand have only forward pointing guns, with no 360-rotation thrusters, leaving them to strafe with a small window of opportunity to deliver their limited payload.

Forget the Primus, two Vorchan cruisers took out a single G'quan cruiser without suffering any apparent losses.

And a Vorchan is easily taken out by a couple of Thunderbolts and their anti-ship missiles. Last time I checked, fighters were less expensive than Vorchans. And they're usually brought into a battle, en masse, being standard equipped.

Now, I also have watched B5 multiple times, and I agree with the Centauri side of the argument. Earth would have in all probability been smashed in a repeat of the Minbari war had they fought against the Centauri, maybe we'd have suffered a few less loses, and inflicted a few more casualties, but overall never a doubt in my mind that barring a Deus Ex Machina intervention by the Vorlon or some other very powerful faction, Earth would kick the bucket if it came down to it.

Eventually it would come down to production rates, strategic elements and tactical maneuvers. Earthforce has not only fought a winning war, but also a losing one against technologically superior adversaries, as a consequence they should be more than capable of bringing into effect the strategic and tactical elements required to eliminate the tech advantages of the Centauri.

As far as I understood it, the Centauri had only one rival for power, that being the Minbari if we do not count the Shadows and the Vorlons, or any other first ones.

They lost a world to the Narn in the very beginning of the series. The Centauri Republic was militarily in decline.

If anything, the sheer elation and gratitude when G'Kar thought Earth had agreed to an alliance was heartwarming and showed exactly what he thought their chances of winning without help would be, which is devastating when we learn Earth will not help the Narns, and that they stand alone. We then realize they don't have a prayer against the Centauri.

Not with the Shadows assisting them.

The Centauri have gunfire that overpenetrates like a motherfucker so it makes mockery of any armour (on Narn Cruisers, on White Stars, on Babylon 5's structure.) and they can sustain such an insane rate of fire they were able to outlast B5's upgraded defense grid interceptors.

As I recall, B5 was strictly operating in a defensive capacity, up until the point when the interceptors lost their efficiency and Centauri weapons fire got through. They immediately responded with offensive weapons fire of their own, which took out the ships in less than a minute of on-screen time. (With a little help of their fighters.)

Even if Omegas had better armor (or were just tougher due to sheer bulk) the Centauri weapons could just blow the hell out of them with precision fire to the (exposed) heavy weapons or engines, and more than probably owuld overpenetrate like hell (even if it can't bypass the armour, which I am highly skeptical of.)

They sheered away a part of B5's outer-hull, near the edge, which I doubt could be compared to an EA ship in terms of armour. Also the G'Quan in question was turned to intercept the weapons fire from the Vorchans, if I recall correctly. An EA ship would have a bigger chance, given its interceptor grid.

I'd also like to know which RPG books we're supposedly talking about, since I've got a good chunk of the B5 Wars stuff and even some of the Mongoose stuff and I'm pretty familiar with the various states (the B5 wars stuff is pretty consistent, and I know JMS considered it canon, but its pretty conservative - babtech conservative- when it comes to many of the capabilities. The mongoose stuff is diffrent but I've never found that stuff to be particularily consistent and I have no knoweldge of its canonicity.)

I haven't actually used the RPG books either, but they appear to be routinely used by various parties when engaging in these type of discussions. I was vaguely using the 'Mongoose' ship types one.

[Connor MacLeod]

As I recall, B5 was strictly operating in a defensive capacity, up until the point when the interceptors lost their efficiency and Centauri weapons fire got through. They immediately responded with offensive weapons fire of their own, which took out the ships in less than a minute of on-screen time. (With a little help of their fighters.)

So? What does that have to do with 'Centauri guns apparently have greater endurance than EA guns?' More to the point what does this have any bearing on the fact thta (as myself and others have pointed out) Centauri weapons fire is quite penetrative and destructive? In 'In the BEginning' a single Centauri Vorchan blows the fuck out of a Narn cruiser in no more than half a dozen salvoes - and in groups they can easily demolish one rapidly (which we've seen in season 2.) WE've seen them mopping the floor with league ships, and white stars.

They sheered away a part of B5's outer-hull, near the edge, which I doubt could be compared to an EA ship in terms of armour. Also the G'Quan in question was turned to intercept the weapons fire from the Vorchans, if I recall correctly. An EA ship would have a bigger chance, given its interceptor grid.

They divided their gunfire to take on both the Narn cruiser AND B5. B5 was only taking about half the cruiser's gunnery, at most. And maybe you forgot where I pointed out those shots OVERPENETRATED LIKE HELL. AS in 'shoot in one side, blast out the other, and not even slowed down in the process. What's more, its only ONE example out of many already brought up. Why you fixate on this to the exclusion of all else I have no fucking clue,

]
I haven't actually used the RPG books either, but they appear to be routinely used by various parties when engaging in these type of discussions. I was vaguely using the 'Mongoose' ship types one.

So you are using all this crap as 'evidence' based purely on hearsay? Do you know how extremely risky and foolish that is? If you can't provide the evidence yourself, then you have no way of knowing it actually says what is claimed, do you? This is the same as 'I have no proof but I think its true otherwise' - eg no proof. On top of that, you're arguing from memory which is exceedingly foolish because that assumes your memory is perfect.

I can't wait to see how Stofsk/Thanas reply to this.

[Stark]

Using that scene as some kind of 'calc' is dumb anyway, because it was driven by brinksmanship. B5 didn't believe the Centauri would attack them; the Centauri didn't think B5 would take direct action to protect the Narn. It was a standoff that went hot due to Centauri arrogance.

B5 crew's reaction makes it clear they were well aware that if the Cenauri ship had shot to kill, they'd be dead. It was arguably a miscalculated warning shot that still blew right trough and delivered more damage than anything B5 had. They simply weren't expecting the station to shoot to kill rather than be cowed into standing aside.

How do you 'calc' this complex situation?

[Cowl]

So? What does that have to do with 'Centauri guns apparently have greater endurance than EA guns?'

It places doubt as to the quality of your assumption.

More to the point what does this have any bearing on the fact thta (as myself and others have pointed out) Centauri weapons fire is quite penetrative and destructive? In 'In the BEginning' a single Centauri Vorchan blows the fuck out of a Narn cruiser in no more than half a dozen salvoes - and in groups they can easily demolish one rapidly (which we've seen in season 2.) WE've seen them mopping the floor with league ships, and white stars.

These things mean nothing when the ship was not only of different design than EA ships, but was also acting on different tactical priorities. And White Stars operate on different principles - fast, carry a hefty punch - while League Ships (those shown) have never really fared well in battle, when seen on-screen.

They divided their gunfire to take on both the Narn cruiser AND B5. B5 was only taking about half the cruiser's gunnery, at most. And maybe you forgot where I pointed out those shots OVERPENETRATED LIKE HELL. AS in 'shoot in one side, blast out the other, and not even slowed down in the process. What's more, its only ONE example out of many already brought up. Why you fixate on this to the exclusion of all else I have no fucking clue,

The other examples were already dealt with in another post, and the shot in question is famous for its inclusion in one of the season intros. While dramatic, it meant little to nothing without some standard of comparison. E.g. Vorchans firing at close range in one of the movies against EA ships. They did not penetrate the ship, quite the opposite, and an EA ship on the other hand did manage to blast straight through a Vorchan, as you would expect given their light armour.

So you are using all this crap as 'evidence' based purely on hearsay? Do you know how extremely risky and foolish that is? If you can't provide the evidence yourself, then you have no way of knowing it actually says what is claimed, do you? This is the same as 'I have no proof but I think its true otherwise' - eg no proof. On top of that, you're arguing from memory which is exceedingly foolish because that assumes your memory is perfect.

I don't see how you would arrive at such a conclusion. The nature of this discussion was that of lighthearted banter, at least for my part. The use of 'proof', as demonstrated by various parties in this discussion, is subjective at best.

If we were to bring this discussion into a more rigorous fold, it would require a great deal more information, which the show itself does not provide.

[Stark]

Oh shit Connor you just got the 'I was joking OBVIOUSLY' comeback. You win the thread.

[Cowl]

Oh shit Connor you just got the 'I was joking OBVIOUSLY' comeback. You win the thread.

Joking? Perhaps you should look up the definition of 'lighthearted'. Although I appreciate the attempt.

[Thanas]

Also White Stars.

The same White Stars that wiped themselves out taking out Shadow-enhanced Omega Class destroyers. Remove the tech bonus from both, and you would have Vorchans wiping themselves out to take out Omega Class destroyers. But in this case, the Omega Class destroyers would have launched their fleet of Thurderbolts. What a couple of Vorchans are against a G'Quan class heavy cruiser (according to you), a couple of Thunderbolts would assuredly be to a Vorchan, seeing that it has little to no armour.

According to you.

Fact is, there is little to no evidence of Vorchans being light armored. The mere fact that the Centauri use them in their line of battles suggests otherwise, as does the combat performance of them.

And let's not forget that the Omega Class destroyer has a rather large fighter contingent in its hanger bays. I believe, significantly larger than any ship in its class.

This is meant to answer what? You think fighters will win the day for the EA? You're delusional.

You claimed that the Shadows were providing them with intelligence, and intelligence of ship movements and supply networks can win a war.

Assuming it is substantial. However, the most important discovery was done by Centauri intelligence all by itself. Centauri intelligence is also described as competent and powerful throughout the series.

I could easily argue, based on the episode where Earthforce tries to retake Babylon 5, that the rotating section is one of the sturdiest parts of the Omega Class destroyer. Seeing that it was still rotating, despite the fact that the ship in question was spewing flames from every conceivable part, up until the point where it rammed its opponent.

This statement, in its utter stupidity, cannot be taken serious. (Hey guys, because the topmast of SMS Derfflinger never caught fire, it clearly means it was the most sturdiest part of the ship, right)?

A design element which should hint towards the sturdy quality of this alleged 'structural weakpoint'.

Why should it?

Earthforce came out stronger from the Earth-Minbari war. Its military apparatus was redesigned to give them a fighting chance against the Minbari. This would be the reason why a standard EA ship is so heavily armed/armored.

Anybody who thinks Earthforce came out stronger from a war where their entire force got obliterated is an idiot. That's like saying the Wehrmacht came out stronger from WWII because eventually the Bundeswehr designed a sweet, sweet MBT.

Omega Class destroyers make use of Thunderbolts. And even if they were carrying Star Furies, these would still be more effective against larger ships than Sentries.

Has it occurred to you, that maybe, just maybe, the Centauri do not need fighters due to superior big guns technology?

Eventually it would come down to production rates, strategic elements and tactical maneuvers. Earthforce has not only fought a winning war, but also a losing one against technologically superior adversaries, as a consequence they should be more than capable of bringing into effect the strategic and tactical elements required to eliminate the tech advantages of the Centauri.

By that logic, the Bundeswehr of the 70s should have been able to easily beat the Soviet union, seeing how its predecessors both fought a winning and a losing war against Russia.

They lost a world to the Narn in the very beginning of the series. The Centauri Republic was militarily in decline.

No, they lacked political will. All evidence points towards them refining or advancing their military tech - see devestating shots from the Vorchan.

They sheered away a part of B5's outer-hull, near the edge, which I doubt could be compared to an EA ship in terms of armour. Also the G'Quan in question was turned to intercept the weapons fire from the Vorchans, if I recall correctly. An EA ship would have a bigger chance, given its interceptor grid.

Bullcrap. They sheered away a large portion of the station that is larger than you think. Larger than an entire Omega middle section for example.

Using that scene as some kind of 'calc' is dumb anyway, because it was driven by brinksmanship. B5 didn't believe the Centauri would attack them; the Centauri didn't think B5 would take direct action to protect the Narn. It was a standoff that went hot due to Centauri arrogance.

B5 crew's reaction makes it clear they were well aware that if the Cenauri ship had shot to kill, they'd be dead. It was arguably a miscalculated warning shot that still blew right trough and delivered more damage than anything B5 had. They simply weren't expecting the station to shoot to kill rather than be cowed into standing aside.

How do you 'calc' this complex situation?

Shhhh. Cowl, master of threadshitting(tm) is above such silly things as interpreting a narrative.

[Batman]

Actually they only sheered away one of those pincer thingies that extend from B5's front which I doubt is anywhere near as large as an Omega's middle section. Not that I see where the size would be relevant, mind you, given most of it was not affected to begin with. The relevant part is what the Centauri weapon pulses did to the section they actually hit...which was make it break off and go on their merry way without having passed though the prong having any visible effect on them whatsoever.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh shit Connor you just got the 'I was joking OBVIOUSLY' comeback. You win the thread.

Joking? Perhaps you should look up the definition of 'lighthearted'. Although I appreciate the attempt.

He's commenting on the fact you just spent countless posts ARGUING about something you are now trying to handwave away as being 'lighthearted' rather than 'trying to run away' from the argument. I mean fuck you were even citing evidence - it wasn't GOOD evidence, and it wasn't really even properly backed up evidence, but its still evidence of a sort.

Had this actually been the 'lighthearted' conversation (and I bet if you asked Stofsk and Thanas they wouldn't consider it such -why the fuck should we go by YOUR strict interpretations of things - they wouldn't consider it 'lighthearted.') you would have been more clear about this being your opinion. Moreover you wouldnt' have acted as if you actually WERE debating (which anyone can plainly see you were, no matter what you think you were.)

What you HAVE done is demonstrated you have no interest in arguing a topic honestly, and that your ego matters more to you than consistency, and that its a waste of time taking you seriously or taking anything you say seriously, because you'll just change your story once more. As I said you deserve all the mockery you get, particularily since you've been around here long enough you should be aware of how many people on this board operate (and what the rules actually say.)

[Thanas]

Tangent split from here.

Carry on.

[khursed]

From my point of view, the main argument as to why the Centauri didn't kick the Narn's ass is simply because as we saw in the serie, the Emperor of the Centauri said "enough" he did not want to start another war against the Narn, and especially didn't want to nuke them back to the stone age with mass driver.

His health was critically bad, and he still tried with his dying breath to make amend for the attrocities perpetrated on the Narn by his family and empire.

The reason the Centauri didn't retaliate against the Narn is because the Emperor didn't want to, do not confuse someone who is wise and benevolent for someone who's empire can't wipe it's own butt anymore.

The Centauri have been said in the show to be nearly on par with the Minbari, and the only one who would have a shot at taking them on.

When discussing those things in B5, you always have to consider the political side of the equation, the Narn appeared very "strong" and "aggressive" however a lot of their posturing was merely huff and puff without any serious threat.

The Shadow did provide some intel, and a couple of engagement, however the Centauri had no problem whatsoever winning the war nearly on their own.

If the Centauri didn't have the capability to take on the Narn with ease and win, then it would have been Londo desperatly trying to find more allies to fight the Narn, and not G'Kar desperatly going to everyone for help. You also have to remember G'Kar didn't know the shadows were helping the Centauri, he went to recruit as much help as he could knowing only their known forces, and he also knew the Narn couldn't win on their own. He is also part of their ruling body, so he would know those strategic information.