X-Men's Apocalypse In A Sci Fi Setting

[Demiurgas]

What would happen in major Sci Fi settings if Apocalypse from Marvel Comics was competent and not inflicted with plot induced stupidity? How powerful of a menace would he be in Star Wars, for example? Or Babylon 5? (Certainly only the First Ones would match him.) Star Trek? (Minus Q level beings.)And so on, and so on?

I'm curious if Apocalypse could defeat an EU Star Wars, given that even in Apocalyps'es stupified state, he can be defeated by someone as powerful as Magneto. (Who should be much less powerful than Apocalypse, despite Apocalyps'es unusual weakness to magnetism.)

[khursed]

Well, given his ability, I'd say he could easilly conquer any sci-fi universe, he is extremely powerful.

The thing you have to remember though, is that comic book always seem to make a threat be really big, and in three arcs, first arc, unstoppable threat that defeats the heroes single handed, then second arc, the heroes find information to defeat the menace, final arc, the heroes find the monster's weakness of secret foil, and use it to defeat him. Hurray!

I've always said, if you pit Batman against the Hulk, it doesn't matter if Batman is a human and Hulk an omega level threat, it depends on the writer who will win.

That's the "sad" fact about any story, the facts, the laws of physics and reality itself will all be twisted to the desired ending. So if you write it, and you want Apocalypse to win, then guess what, he will win!

See where I am going with this? I think it's the main flaw of most argument of versus, the real question is not who would win, but who do you want to win and why?

Because how often have we seen the weakling side triumph against the overwhelming forces of evil?

[Demiurgas]

True enough. I guess you answered my question of what would the logical conclusion of Apocalypse attempting to conquer a universe be?

Whoverse, the Doctor would win even if he wouldn't, just because he's the Doctor.

[Solauren]

Actually, Apocalypse could be handled by a Star Trek race.

Beam the fucker up, and don't materialize him. Problem solved.

Anyone else, well, if Apocalypse manages to interface with their technology (he is a technopath after all), their boned.

[Demiurgas]

Uh, Apocalypse can refuse to be transported. "I'm feeling a little twinkle in my brain. I must be coming up with a headache. Molecules, REFORM!"

[Simon_Jester]

Since this involves comics, I bet it gets moved to Fantasy...

Anyway, Apocalpyse is, what, this guy with magic "do anything he wants" powers? In that case, it's pretty obvious that the main limit on his power is how many things he can pay attention to at once, and so on. The smartest way to handle him might be to just dump him on a random planet and leave him there.

[jollyreaper]

I've always said, if you pit Batman against the Hulk, it doesn't matter if Batman is a human and Hulk an omega level threat, it depends on the writer who will win.

That's the "sad" fact about any story, the facts, the laws of physics and reality itself will all be twisted to the desired ending. So if you write it, and you want Apocalypse to win, then guess what, he will win!

See where I am going with this? I think it's the main flaw of most argument of versus, the real question is not who would win, but who do you want to win and why?

Very good points. The trick in doing the story is at least making the outcome interesting. If you were writing two human protagonists who are equally matched, you could have a plausible outcome with either one winning. The questions are why are they fighting, what are their beliefs? Were the ever friends or always rivals? Is this a tragic conflict or does it appear righteous? Will our sympathies change in the course of the fight? Will we see anyone in a different light?

But you are correct that the radically different power levels make comic team-ups implausible. With the Avengers movie, I can buy Iron Man, Hulk, and Thor being on the same team. They're powerful guys. Captain America doesn't seem to be operating at that kind of level. Black Widow, is she supposed to be super-powered or a Charles Atlas hero? I know the archer guy is just supposed to be really good at shooting arrows. Shit, at least the Widow is using a 20th century weapon! I mean shit, would it sound stupid to have a "Greatest American Air Force Team!" where you have an F-22, F-15, F-16 and, oh, say a P-51 as a super sentai group? Sounds absurd. The P-51 would be hard-pressed against Vietnam-era MiG relics, let alone anything from the late 20th century.

[Demiurgas]

Since this involves comics, I bet it gets moved to Fantasy...

Anyway, Apocalpyse is, what, this guy with magic "do anything he wants" powers? In that case, it's pretty obvious that the main limit on his power is how many things he can pay attention to at once, and so on. The smartest way to handle him might be to just dump him on a random planet and leave him there.

Apocalypse has absolute molecular control over his body. He is stronger than the Hulk in a reasonably enraged state, a scientific Uber Mensch genius, who suffers from plot stupidity.

[Imperial528]

Uh, Apocalypse can refuse to be transported. "I'm feeling a little twinkle in my brain. I must be coming up with a headache. Molecules, REFORM!"

Then instead of transporting him, transport the antimatter from the ship's fuel stock on to him.

[Batman]

Err-if anything the Widow's stingers are even less useful than Hawkeye's arrows. At least the arrows are large enough to carry a variety of technobabble payloads.We're talking about a P-51 with a very interesting ammunition loadout. Plus it would be considerably more maneuverable than the rest due to its slower speed.
Not that I consider the analogy all that accurate. Cap and Widow (or for DC, me and mine) are the Special Forces to Thor/Clark's Air Force/whatever you want to call the guys that can go through tank regiments like they aren't there. They can go 'Hulk Smash' all year long and it sometimes won't make a difference without somebody sneaking into the enemy camp and stealing the plans/telling the person actually in charge that he's been lied to/pushing the painfully obvious and clearly labeled self-destruct button, which is where the likes of me, Widow and Cap come in.

[Simon_Jester]

Since this involves comics, I bet it gets moved to Fantasy...

Anyway, Apocalpyse is, what, this guy with magic "do anything he wants" powers? In that case, it's pretty obvious that the main limit on his power is how many things he can pay attention to at once, and so on. The smartest way to handle him might be to just dump him on a random planet and leave him there.

Apocalypse has absolute molecular control over his body. He is stronger than the Hulk in a reasonably enraged state, a scientific Uber Mensch genius, who suffers from plot stupidity.

So... is he immune to being stranded on a random rockball planet? This sounds like the best way to deal with him- get him on a ship and drop him somewhere.

[Batman]

He simply transforms his body into rocket engines and leaves? Sorry, but at least from what I found on Wikipedia, that would be entirely within his capabilities.

[Ahriman238]

Originally, Apocalypse was a really big and strong guy with some limited shapechanging, limited invulnerability and alien technology backing him up. That and his Horsemen. Later they upgraded him to Hulk Strong, and added craploads of mental and energy manipulation powers. Plus the backstory that he's a 5,000 year old immortal who took down an alien pharoh, thus gaining access to advanced technology.

Plus, at least one of his schemes involved stealing the powers of the 12 most powerful mutants in the world, in the X-men Evolution show his succsessful theft of these powers is his introduction story.

It really would help to clarify precisely what version of Apocalypse we're dealing with here. Apocalypse with less plot-induced stupidity has been done before- they called it the Age of Apocalypse for a reason.

[Batman]

So essentially, he's Marvel's Doomsday (who, incidentally, should have been a pushover for Clark initially) in that they kept piling on abilities so he would actually remain a credible threat.

[Ahriman238]

So essentially, he's Marvel's Doomsday (who, incidentally, should have been a pushover for Clark initially) in that they kept piling on abilities so he would actually remain a credible threat.

Basically. I have no serious problem with him being an immortal warlord, except they had to create elaborate reasons he wasn't already ruling the world.

At the peak he's ever been, you have an invulnerable shapeshifter who's as strong as the Hulk, has the same powers as Xavier and Magneto dialed up to 11 (especially the psychic powers) plus the powers of Iceman, Sunfire, Storm, Havok/Living Monolith (long story) and a suite of teleporting/space warping powers. Plus he's always had the technological capabilities of one of the Marvel Universe's most advanced alien races, and keeps enlisting the most powerful of mutants as his henchmen.

Oh, and in the later versions, he hops bodies to keep his immortal life.

They really do have to go to some lengths to explain why he isn't already in charge. Funny enough, he was supposed to be a third man to turn the Xavier/Magneto dynamic into a trio- one powerful mutant who is desperate to stop a human/mutant war, one who sees such a war as inevitable and is planning to win, and one who actively desires and encourages such a conflict.

[mr friendly guy]

Can he maintain control of his molecules despite a Death Star level of energy directed against it? Can he maintain control of his molecules against a nuke? Can we actually quantify his best feats rather than a no numbers approach typical of a lot of comic fan boys, or else its rather pointless to debate using an unquantifiable foe against a known and quantifiable one.

Although against the Apocalypse wank, the Time Lords time loop earth. Then for fun they demat gun him.

[MrDakka]

Can he maintain control of his molecules despite a Death Star level of energy directed against it? Can he maintain control of his molecules against a nuke? Can we actually quantify his best feats rather than a no numbers approach typical of a lot of comic fan boys, or else its rather pointless to debate using an unquantifiable foe against a known and quantifiable one.

Although against the Apocalypse wank, the Time Lords time loop earth. Then for fun they demat gun him.

I'm pretty sure he won't be able to withstand Death Star level of energy, since the consensus is that he probably won't fare very well against Marvel's energy manipulating powerhouses (Silver Surfer, Black Bolt, Thor, maybe Nova?). He might be able to withstand small low yield nuclear warheads.

That said if he had prep time he would just deus ex machina Celestial tech to withstand that much energy.

[Tsyroc]

In one of the House of M alternate reality spin-offs Apocalypse was obliterated (along with nearly everything else) by Black Bolt's voice.

The tough part about Apocalypse is that the alien tech he has access to, and has suped himself up with, is supposed to be that of the Celestials. The beings who genetically engineered various lesser races. The two human examples are the Deviants and the Eternals. Some pretty powerful being in their own right. Hyperion of the Squadron Supreme is supposed to be the last Eternal on his planet (one of the alternate Earths) and he's essentially Marvel's version of Superman.

[mr friendly guy]

So what can he do with that alien tech? There is no reason to assume just because its celestial tech its their most advanced or in anyway comparable to their capabilities without some evidence, and just name dropping the Celestials doesn't cut it. A stone age tool is also human tech as well, but I doubt anyone will get excited about that.

[Demiurgas]

I don't know about the tech, but Apocalypse survived his spirit dying.

[Simon_Jester]

...So?

Most SF settings don't rely on killing your spirit to kill you or neutralize you. They just blow you up. Is Apocalypse immune to being blown up?

[Solauren]

Uh, Apocalypse can refuse to be transported. "I'm feeling a little twinkle in my brain. I must be coming up with a headache. Molecules, REFORM!"

Okay, but he's still in the transporter beam itself.

Also, demonstrate or show proof of this, please.

[Demiurgas]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Ni ... lowsup.png

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t442042.html

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Ni ... ernate.png

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Ni ... owers4.png

[Simon_Jester]

That is not proof.

What do you bring to the table, other than "this Apocalypse guy is INVINCIBLE!"

[Demiurgas]

He's not Invincible. I never said he was. He possesses inconsistent abilities like most if not all comic book characters.