Faith and Aliens, revisited.

[SpaceMarine93]

If you had ever seen the 1953 version of the War of the Worlds, you might be familiar with this scene: the first engagement between Human military and the Martian war machines. It was pivotal - it showed the US army, the most powerful military of the era next to that of the Soviet Union, being utterly curbstomped by the Martians, just to show off how powerful the Martians were. The scene could be found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQfF5fGP ... re=related

Of course, many of you might also remember a dramatic scene just before the battle; the female protagonist's uncle, Matthew, his character deeply affected by the apparent existence of aliens (that happened to want to kill them all), decides to try and establish peaceful contact with the Martians coming towards them, taking off his hat and jacket to show his vicar's clothing, speaking lines from Psalm 23 and holding up his bible with an utterly passive expression on his face, stoically walking towards the Martians, despite his nephew screaming for him to turn back.

It went as well as expected.

The Martians' intents by that point was confirmed - one of utter hostility to Humanity on Earth. Cue epic battle.

To many people it might had seemed to be a fool's errant, idiotic, and indeed on appearence it might had reflect one of the important themes of the original War of the Worlds in H.G. Wells - that Human irrationality and outdated ideas would inevitably weeded out like outcompeted species in Evolution in the face of such calamity. Its almost as if he was being sacrificed by the director to show off how 'evil' the Martians really were.

One guy on the Youtube video's comments page (with a particularly arrogant title) had another perspective on Uncle Matthew's role; namely, the director had unintentionally used Matthew, and other religious themes in the movie, to reflect Human faith reaction under such an existential crisis.

He initially agrees with the general view that Matthew was just essential dramatic effect cannon fodder, before going off on how it is more in depth then it seemed, saying:

The opening 1:05 minutes is just to establish the Martian's irredeemable villainy in the film. Despite being made in the 1950s, Priest Matthew's scene is a surprising in-depth showcase of the cultural shock the appearance aliens would cause: The Priest faith is shaken knowing that aliens more advance than humans exists, meaning that Human uniqueness before God, the staple of human faith, is wrong. The only way for him to cope with it is to try and reach out to the aliens... (continued)

(part 2)... in a futile attempt that in doing so he and Mankind could reach closer to God, on the assumption that the Martians, being more advance than the Humans, must had been favored more by God than Humanity. His annihlation, while probably planned to be just to showcase Martian's villainy in the form of killing innocent unarmed people, would symbolize the seemingly inevitable end of Human sense of uniqueness and place in existence in the universe in the face of a threat from beyond. (Cont.)

He continued on with 2 more parts, referencing other scenes in the film:

(part 3)... Another religious reference, in the form of the apocalyptic overtones of the predictions before the A-bomb attack that it would take the Martians a week to wipe out all remaining resistance, an ironic echo to the week of creation in the Genesis, further reinforces the theme of crumbling of Human faith. On the other hand, the other added religious overtone in the film - the Martian's advance stopping just in front of a church full of refugees at the end of the movie... (continued)

(part 4)... After they had wiped out everything else in L.A., as well as the emphasis of God's hand in the defeat of the Martians in the form of the bacteria whom 'in his infinite wisdom' he placed upon the Earth, is an attempt at theme reconstruction, suggesting that despite the possibility of all Human faith and beliefs crumbling in face of such existential crisis, especially in form of an alien invasion, the same faiths and beliefs could ultimately help Humanity overcome it... (continued)

He concludes his assessment:

(part 5)... of course, it's probable that the director didn't intend this, and I may be reading too much into this, but it's a good analysis, don't you think?
If you believe in God, I bet many would do, and in Human uniqueness, how might one react to an Alien invasion? How does one's faith cope with something that seemed to be an anathema to everything you believed in?

Indeed, it begs the question once more: how would Human faith, beliefs and ideas about their place in the Universe and God change in the face of alien contact? Something that seemingly contradicts the scriptures and view of Human's position in existence? How would religious people view as they, the faithful to God, are being obliterated by an alien far more advance and superior to them in every way?

Opinions anyone?

Edit: Dammit, why can't I put the video up?!

[Demiurgas]

Hm. I think that, as a Christian myself, an alien invasion, if proven, while shocking, would not effect my faith other than "Holy Cow Space Nazi's! Protect us Jesus!"

[dragon]

Several preachers I know are hard core sci-fi fans and firmly belive in aliens. Matter of fact they have signs already made up some for welcoming our new neighbors and the others welcoming christ.

[SpaceMarine93]

Wow, I thought religion as a whole would crumble at such an existential crisis, if not crumble, at least the old ones would wither away and new ones involving aliens and such would start popping up. I can see now people could cope better then I thought...

But how would current religions as a whole cope though?

[Demiurgas]

Oh, you mean such as "Religion in general"? A huge Renaissance in New Age and space alien believers, but some of us would still cling to the old ways. The only way to eradicate Christianity is by murdering every last one of us, and it would come back.

[evilsoup]

Isn't the Catholic church's position on aliens 'if God wants to make life on other worlds, that's His business'? I don't see why aliens per se would really shake anyone's faith. War of the Worlds-style kill-all-humans invasion might kill off some people's faith in God or whatever; but I think it's much more likely that a lot of people would start going back to religion, as their only hope.

[bilateralrope]

I can only see three ways that aliens would seriously threaten the existence of human religions:
- They kill off humanity.
- They cause major changes to how people are educated. For example, requiring people to be trained in logic and to use that logic to examine their own beliefs. Or just kidnapping children and raising them in an environment without any expose to human religions.
- They give humans technologies that create very obvious problems for the religion among people who use that technology. Immortality would remove any fear of consequences in the afterlife. Mind uploading would cause serious questions about the nature of an immortal soul, especially when someones mind is copied into multiple bodies.

Oh, you mean such as "Religion in general"? A huge Renaissance in New Age and space alien believers, but some of us would still cling to the old ways. The only way to eradicate Christianity is by murdering every last one of us, and it would come back.

If all the Christians were dead, how could Christianity come back ?

[Demiurgas]

The Bible's existence.

[bilateralrope]

Why believe the bible over whatever religion the survivors follow ?

[Demiurgas]

Edit-
Well, I have my personal reasons. I'd say Islam might crop up after the aliens kill them all too.

Why not? Why not believe in Islam? There's plenty of Hadiths and Qurans around isn't there?

[Serafina]

You know, the only religions that would actually be threatened by this are...i actually can't think of any.
Yes, Young Earth Creationists would appear to have their belief system overthrown by that - but they are ALREADY ignoring a gigantic amount of evidence - and they could just explain it away with "they're demons sent by Satan to trick us".

A lot of religions don't have anything in their belief systems that isn't compatible with aliens.
Catholicism and mainstream Christianity of other denominations certainly doesn't, since they have long abandoned a literal interpretation of the bible and see the universe as both big and old, with Earth only being special because Jesus was born here - so life on other planets makes perfect sense, and them visiting us would be most fortunate because now they can share salvation.
Buddhism, all pagan religions i can think of etc. think likewise - creation myths are just that, figurative stories, and the universe is big and old enough for other intelligent lifeforms to exist without any theological problems.

[Simon_Jester]

Wow, I thought religion as a whole would crumble at such an existential crisis, if not crumble...

You are far too quick to assume that other people's minds will be OHMIGOD TOTALLY BLOWN by seeing or hearing some new thing, instead of just accommodating the fact and getting on with their lives.

at least the old ones would wither away and new ones involving aliens and such would start popping up. I can see now people could cope better then I thought...

But how would current religions as a whole cope though?

Diversely. Some would shrug and go "meh." Others would look foolish by doing foolish things to or about the aliens. And, heck- why do you think that the "new religions involving the other species" thing would be all one way? What if the aliens start pulling bits of our religions into their own, too, until you end up with the Pope of Space?

[jollyreaper]

Back in the early 19th century we were cementing the concept that the universe was big, really big, far larger than the million miles across once supposed. So the question of other suns and other worlds has been a subject of debate for a very, very long time. And the question of how this would work was for some a wedge between science and religion. Was it really reasonable to assume that there was a Jesus for each and every other race in the universe? If not, were they created without original sin?

In the general case of discovering alien life, I think that we would see some people undergo religious and areligious epiphanies. Some would find faith, others lose it. The major pre-contact faiths would continue as before would probably spall off a number of post-contact splinter sects that could grow in size and popularity. Few religions spring out of nothing. Something like Scientology is a rarity. Most religions will start as smaller cults that add a few heresies to another religion. Christianity was a rogue sect of Judaism, Mormonism a rogue sect of Christianity, Islam a stewpot mix of both of those plus desert animist beliefs. You might get some straight out UFO cults that seem like Heaven's Gate but I'd wager the more popular ones would find a way to adopt the local culture's dominant faith to the space angle. So in the Deep South of the US of A I could see something like Pentacostal Space Jesus cults.

In the post-invasion case, what happens in the next few generations after the Martian invasion failed, I think things would be even more nuts.

The Yay, God! approach would see the Martians as a challenge for the faithful and we were found worthy because God saved us with a miracle because our faith was strong. Anyone talking about microbes would be seen as a godless liberal trying to explain away the miracles of God. Christian apologists would point out the absurdity of the Martians not being prepared for exactly this sort of thing and the unlikely circumstances as more proof of miracles.

The Fuck You, God! approach would see the Martian failure as dumb luck and that there's no special human purpose in the world. I think the logical outcome of this view would likely be atheism but you could also possibly see some weird-ass cults resulting from this. Perhaps there might be a transhumanist bent, maybe some sort of weird Cthulhu cult idea of worshiping the alien death-bringers.

The Nevermind What You Just Saw approach would pretty much try to stamp out any debate about whether the new discoveries have any bearing on the existing dogma. Likely the line the most orthodox of the established religions would run with to tamp down the chance of defections amongst the faithful.

[jollyreaper]

One other addendum: always bet on stupidity. As was pointed out above, science pretty much slaughters the biblical literalist POV right along with young earth creationism. The Earth is damn old. The universe is damn old. Evolution is real. Prayer fails all double-blind studies. People are completely capable of, quite enthusiastic about ignoring such evidence.

The other question is who will be seen as the hero of the invasion, the man of the cloth or the man of science? Science could not stop the Martians. Will people credit religion due to belief in miracles or see it as dumb luck nobody could take credit for? Conservatism is usually the result of such national shocks. Will science be held suspect or will the Martian machines yield their secrets and thus give us advances that will go along with a cultural narrative of "science marches on!" with the great national goal of defending against the next invasion?

In the specific case of the War of the Worlds, it would seem very sensible that we would mount an intensive exploration of Mars in short order. Was this a last gasp or a first wave? Are there still Martians on Mars? Could they try again? If they're all gone, we want the secrets of their cities. If they're still there, we want to kill them all.

You know, that could make for the premise of a good show. Back in the early days of Fox there was a cheap scifi show set in the contemporary time that was supposed to be the post-invasion world after having been rebuilt. People had largely forgotten about the war but the Martians were trying to come back. I could understand skepticism about the return of the Martians but forgetting the war? Unlikely.

If you set the story in 2012, you could have had humans on Mars for a few decades. No live Martians, no dead Martians, every evidence of an evacuation rather than extinction. No sign of where they went. Every suspicion they might still be around. Did they give up on Earth, find somewhere else to go? Are they biding their time? Paranoia time.

[PREDATOR490]

Aliens wont really change anything to disprove God exists.
Infact, more likely it would be used as evidence God is punishing the world for sins etc by sending 'demons'.

[Batman]

The more liberal believers won't have a problem with it. So God created intelligent life on other worlds too. Big deal.
The hardliners will either go the demon route or claim it's all fake, up to and likely including the point where there's plenty of aliens on the planet for everyone to see.

[SpaceMarine93]

Okay...

In War of the Worlds 1953, Priest Matthew's faith was apparently severely shaken by the appearance of the Martians. So what do you guys think was the motivation of Uncle Matthew's approach to the crisis? Genuine attempt at communication? Attempt to reach closer to God as that guy on Youtube suggest? Suicide by Martian because he can't reconcile his faith with it?

[Solauren]

Supposedly, the words of god have power. i.e the Power to calm, the power to communicate, etc.

It was probably a geniue attempt at communication, using what he that was the best system for that.

Either that, or Suicide by Martian to wake people up to 'MAJOR THREAT'

[PREDATOR490]

Religious dogma likes to push the idea that Faith can be used as a shield... because aliens will totally understant that attacking someone waving a small book with a cross on it is a major NO-NO. Same goes for the stupidity of not attacking churches or Rules of Engagement on the battlefield.
I.E It would be just as stupid to expect aliens to abide by Geneva Conventions and holding up a book with them in it as the aliens approach

Assuming aliens have the same values as you do is completely stupid
Assuming aliens have the same values based on Earth history is simply retarded. Thus how the fuck are they going to know about the Bible, Jesus or any religious bullshit ?
Would be more ironic if aliens started a crusade against Earth because some Religious fuckwit started preaching at them about being demons and how we are Gods children etc.

[bilateralrope]

Edit-
Well, I have my personal reasons. I'd say Islam might crop up after the aliens kill them all too.

Why not? Why not believe in Islam? There's plenty of Hadiths and Qurans around isn't there?

I don't see how the religious texts alone will guarantee the return of a religion.

[Rabid]

I don't see how the religious texts alone will guarantee the return of a religion.

I seem to remember there are some people from the New Age "movement" that are trying to revive/re-interpret ancient polytheistic faith based on what few things we know about them, like the Celtic pantheon for example.

So if you had this kind of people stumbling upon copies of the Bible/Coran/Torah, I can easily see them trying to re-build the associated religion.

[jollyreaper]

Modern pagans are doing that sort of thing. Wiccans and Druids are making it up as they go.

[The Yosemite Bear]

erm what happens when the aliens that we meet up with just happen to look like something out of one of those "Discredited" pagan religions. Hey look a race of feathered reptiles just happen to land in mexico...

[madd0ct0r]

I think, unless they're hyper intelligent shades of blue, any alien will probably correspond to some weird belief system somewhere.

[Batman]

They'd probably do if they were.