Antediluvian vampires (World of Darkness) in Warhammer 40k

[gamer]

I was just wondering could the Antediluvian vampires take over the 40k galaxy if they existed in 40k?

Lets assume for this scenario they aren't going to try to kill each other and have united together to take on 40k (they are blood bonded to each other along with their childer being blood bonded to the antediluvians).

The antediluvians are the ancient founders of the vampire clans in the game Vampire:The Masquerade part of the World of Darkness universe. They all wield immense power by being masters of vampiric blood magic many of their powers have no limits fallacies for example the discipline potence 10 allows a vampire to have essentially infinite strength so blasting apart mountain ranges with a single punch is something they can do, obfuscate 10 allows a vampire to completely erase the existence of themselves or another from the universe (they can do anything but perceiving their existence is impossible by any being), viccissitude 10 allows a vampire to shapeshift their body into anything they can imagine, merge with the biosphere of an entire planet becoming a singular being, and complete immortality (nothing at all can kill someone with viccissitude 10 except God himself), dominate 10 allows a vampire to control the mind of any being, fortitude 10 allowed a starving weakened antediluvian to survive salvos of 50 Mt nukes dropped directly on him without any damage the nukes were also enhanced so that anything near the blast zone wasn't just physically vaporized but the soul was to be obliterated as well the damage was so immense from the sustained nuclear bombardment not only the area the vampire was standing was vaporized but it destabilized the barrier that seperates the material world from the spiritual world causing more havoc while being completely ineffective against the vampire. On top of their powers they are all very intelligent (thousands of years of experience), unaging, and masters of manipulation. They aren't the type to run into battle but they prefer to destroy their opponents through manipulation.

If you are unfamiliar with the World of Darkness this may be of help.
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Antediluvian
http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Discipline_(VTM)
If you are unfamiliar with Warhammer 40k this will be helpful as well.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000

[loomer]

Except Ravana, the antediluvian that 'survived' the nuclear barrage, still died. It was due to a combination of magically enhanced focused sunlight, nuclear fire, top-level Kuei-jin assault, angry, angry spirits, and if memory serves, even a few werewolves. Nuclear assault without the storm protecting it from the sun would probably have done the job just fine - the Bodhisattva assault actually complicated things, rather than helping.

Really, its as simple as bombarding it long enough that its blood supply dwindles, then doing it some more. This goes for all of them, except possibly the Gangrel's Ennoia (the ability to actually become the Earth is very useful, but even that can be dealt with by the Necrons, if not the Imperium). Don't forget that at least one Antediluvian was legitimately destroyed by his own childer - three, if you count Saulot and Cappadocius.

Also, which book states that Vic 10 makes you literally unkillable except by God? Do you refer to the level 10 power 'plot device'?

[Sriad]

Also, which book states that Vic 10 makes you literally unkillable except by God? Do you refer to the level 10 power 'plot device'?

Vicissitude 10 "Reform Body" in Player's Guide to the Sabbat. I'll post the exact text when I get home, but basically "the Vampire can reform its body, even after it is destroyed."

In combination with their esoteric powers ancient Koldunic Tzimisce (paying the "out of clan" premium is pretty meaningless at this point) are basically unkillable; even at 8th gen you have to one-round them or else annihilate a semi-sphere of earth to a depth of 5 miles in the next round.

[Sriad]

Double-posted because I am bad at fora.

[TheFeniX]

Man, I remember my friend explaining Antediluvians to me years ago. Pretty wank stuff and this is coming from a guy who read all the Elminster novels. Can't they create a new discipline (like "I win all engagements") at rank 10 any time they want, or am I mixing them up with Caine?

Hilarity at level 10 "plot device." Wouldn't level 10 celerity just let a Vampire instantly teleport anywhere he wanted and travel back in time as well? Meanwhile, at level 10 fortitude and potence let them just fly through anything, instantly destroying it? They wouldn't even need to go that far. "Presence" or whatever the mindfuck/mindcontrol discipline was would let them just take over anyone they felt like. If the writing is to be believed, it wouldn't matter how powerful mentally or psychically their opponent was as level 10 is basically an "I win" button, at least in the vein of WoD.

I don't know much about Wh40k, but the Vampire Boogymen with the power of the "Plot Device" were written with one hand.

[loomer]

The vampire boogeymen were never actually intended for casual use in a game. You don't let people play them. The idea is that they are so monstrously powerful that even the biggest, baddest motherfuckers in the rest of the world are terrified by them, and they're basically meant to be used as rumoured figures, dark whispers, and a constant source of dread as the world slowly slides towards an inevitable apocalypse.

[gamer]

I know the antediluvians have some pretty wanked out powers but I was wondering if such beings existed in Warhammer40k with the goal to dominate the galaxy could they do it? They are masters of stealth and manipulation after all plus the ability to create powerful blood bonded childer (lesser vampires) to spread throughout the galaxy could help further their plans as well but then again could they wrest control from the nightmarish forces that exist in 40k?

[Tasoth]

Wouldn't the Antedeluvians just fall to Tzeentch? It seems they're huge schemers with access to extreme magical powers. Given the plague aspect of making vampires, you may even handing them off to Nurgle.

[Civil War Man]

Can't they create a new discipline (like "I win all engagements") at rank 10 any time they want, or am I mixing them up with Caine?

That's mixing it up with Caine. loomer mentioned how the Antediluvians aren't really meant to be played by anyone, and Caine takes that to a completely different level.

In one of the Vampire books, there's an entry on Caine. It doesn't even bother giving him stats. It just gives a rundown of how he became the first vampire, has max ranks in all possible disciplines, can make disciplines up on the fly, and states flat out that any player who somehow runs into him automatically loses if they try to fight.

[Sriad]

Can't they create a new discipline (like "I win all engagements") at rank 10 any time they want, or am I mixing them up with Caine?

That's mixing it up with Caine. loomer mentioned how the Antediluvians aren't really meant to be played by anyone, and Caine takes that to a completely different level.

In one of the Vampire books, there's an entry on Caine. It doesn't even bother giving him stats. It just gives a rundown of how he became the first vampire, has max ranks in all possible disciplines, can make disciplines up on the fly, and states flat out that any player who somehow runs into him automatically loses if they try to fight.

If we ignore the "Caine auto-wins" stuff, it would STILL take about 4-6 Antediluvians coordinating to challenge him extrapolating from younger generations' power curve. So in an "actual fight" I'd expect him to shrug off about 10 rank 10 discipline attacks per round.

[loomer]

Returning to the original topic, things could potentially be much worse for the Imperium if we think about the alternative mythologies. One of them has an addition 30-odd Antediluvians, with unknown powers. So, add them in. I'd say it'd be a fairly significant threat if only because at least a few of them are going to be working from the shadows - but even there, the factions of the Imperium have experience in dealing with such things.

Short of it? My best bet would be that the Imperium might have some trouble for a few decades in a sector, maybe two, but it wouldn't be an existential threat. The closest would be Absimiliard, with his ability to erase all knowledge of his own existence, which is a tough one to deal with in terms of getting a lead on him.

[Bedlam]

I dont think the Antediluvian's can do anything more than a high level demon could, the only advantage they have is that they are more native to the real world and so cannot be banished.

[Imperial Overlord]

Nuclear assault without the storm protecting it from the sun would probably have done the job just fine - the Bodhisattva assault actually complicated things, rather than helping.

Incorrect. Without the Bodhisattva assault nothing at all happens. Timeline matters in this case. The Bodhisattva sense Ravnos rising and throw down with Ravnos. Being ancient, hideously powerful vampires they are able to last against him since they outnumber him three to one. The fight extends into daylight and they shroud the area with clouds so they can keep on fighting. Around this point the Technocracy has taken notice of what's going down and goes into crisis mode. They drop a nuke optimized with their technomagic to kill supernaturals on the area and Ravnos survives. Then they use technomagic satellites to fry him with concentrated sunlight. No Bodhisattva fight, no Technocracy orbital bombardment.

In 40K, due to higher power scales, the Antediluvians would get added to the list of fucking scary things that can be found in the grim darkness of the far future.

[Pendragon]

If it's open warfare, it seems like orbital bombardment would probably do the trick then. If all antedeluvians were stuck on the same planet, an exterminatus should at least give them pause. Not sure if their powers let's tem leave the planet by their own power. Iirc some fool vampire teleported to the surface of the moon (and fried in the sun). It would definetly not be unreasonable for antedeluvians to board spaceships in orbit under some circumstances.

Regardless, with their minions they're probably more likely to attempt to seize power covertly, after all, the theme is largely about the vampires being awesomely powered individuals, but would generally be taken down by mortals in open warfare. Also, consider their entrance into the 40k setting. Do they merely survive and see the WoD-setting turn into 40k? Or do they timewarp from their end of days inte the current 40k timeline? If the former, they might have to show down with the emperor of mankind, 40K's own wanktastic superbeing and possibly his primarchs.

But basically, taking off and nuking the site from orbit seems to be a good approach, and the Imperium (and most other 40K races) does love themselves some fine orbital bombarding!

[Lord Revan]

it's intresting question whether the vampires can affect warp entides like daemons, since if we take the "got timewarped/teleported" route anything large scale the vampires would do would be bound to attact the attention of the dark gods (it's pretty much unavoidble in WH40k).

what the Imperium of man does probably depends on where in the imperium the vampires pop-out, if it's a major system, a purge is at least attempted, how ever if it's a minor system, they might try a purge or simply declare an exterminatus on the planet to prevent a warp portal from forming (it really depends on the stragedic value of the planet and the level of "corruption" present once the imperium arrives).

[gamer]

Vampires are not likely to fight the various factions in 40k in open warfare until they somehow get a massive army up, they are instead masters of stealth and manipulation with extremely secretive societies so detecting them would be an issue considering how they have been on Earth for thousands of years and humanity is still unaware of their existence.

To answer another question the antediluvians are just simply warped onto a random planet in the Imperium and start out with a nice blood supply so they won't frenzy immediately and bring immediate attention to themselves and very basic knowledge of the 40k universe.

As for their interactions with daemons, vampires are naturally very resistant to things like mind control and incapable of using the magic mages use (even mages who become vampires lose their powers) so they would probably appear as blanks. There are a few vampires who actually can summon and control demons using the blood discipline Daimoinon which could prove useful.

[Tiriol]

Which Antediluvians get transported to 40K universe? Does it include Tremere and Giovanni or only "proper" Antediluvians? That also has some bearing on the matter.

[gamer]

Which Antediluvians get transported to 40K universe? Does it include Tremere and Giovanni or only "proper" Antediluvians? That also has some bearing on the matter.

While it wouldn't make too much sense, seeing as how Tremere and Giovanni are 3rd generation vampires they should be included as well.

[tortieconspiracy]

That would be August Giovanni, right? Just calling him him "Giovanni" doesn't really uniquely identify him since the Giovanni are a family operation, i.e. they're all related as mortals as well as vampires. Most, if not all, of them are surnamed Giovanni. If there are any exceptions, it's women who married out to further the clan's plans and they might have reverted to their original surname on Embrace.

[gamer]

That would be August Giovanni, right? Just calling him him "Giovanni" doesn't really uniquely identify him since the Giovanni are a family operation, i.e. they're all related as mortals as well as vampires. Most, if not all, of them are surnamed Giovanni. If there are any exceptions, it's women who married out to further the clan's plans and they might have reverted to their original surname on Embrace.

While interesting I don't see what difference it makes since we are all talking about antediluvians and if they can take over warhammer 40k.

Which reminds me antediluvians in warhammer 40k really wouldn't be out of place considering how at one point 40k had dwarves I mean squats, tomb kings (necrons), orks and eldar antediluvians would be like having vampire counts but in SPACE!

[Bedlam]

Good Old Rogue Traider (40K first ed) actually has vampires in it although they look rather more like humanoid bats than WOD vampires. I think they travelled the warp and swarmed whole planets so by current mythos they would probably by a type of demon or possibly a strange type of xenos.

[Pendragon]

That would be August Giovanni, right? Just calling him him "Giovanni" doesn't really uniquely identify him since the Giovanni are a family operation, i.e. they're all related as mortals as well as vampires. Most, if not all, of them are surnamed Giovanni. If there are any exceptions, it's women who married out to further the clan's plans and they might have reverted to their original surname on Embrace.

Which is in itself funny since AFAIK Giovanni is pretty much exclusively a first name.

[Napoleon the Clown]

How long the Antediluvian lasts depends on who it is. The physical powerhouse ones would have a much harder time of things because it's idiotic to assume that they're invulnerable enough to survive the kind of punishment 40k can dish out. The dangerous ones are those with mental Disciplines and especially those with mastery over Obfuscate. Namely Absimiliard and Malkav. Absimiliar has ungodly physical capabilities, Malkav has Dementation, a power that at level 9 can throw an entire city into chaos for long enough to cause ungodly property damage. Or at level 7 can temporarily to horrible things to mental stats. At level 10 it's within reason that the possessor of the power could permanently clean-slate someone's brain just for shits and giggles, nevermind being able to throw them into such severe degrees of mental illness that they're utterly useless. Malkav also has a heinous advantage in Auspex. Kind of hard to surprise a guy that can perceive pretty much anything. Possibly even future events.

Good news and bad news with Malkav, though. He "currently" exists as a hive-mind, so he can't really call these powers to use. Bad news is that if he DID come back into a single body of sufficient power you'd still have the problem that destroying that body just means he retreats back into the Cobweb. He'd make the Week of Nightmares look rather nice, considering what little we've been told of his personality. Such as him allegedly starting the entire Jihad as a practical joke.

Anyone with Dominate or Presence would be able to simply take over entire planets at a time. Either through straight-up mind control or through being even more charming and charismatic than the God Emperor of Mankind could ever dream of being. Those would be the most likely to actually pull off taking over the entire Imperium. The rest would either get blasted to death or be unable to spread influence beyond the planet they were on due to logistics.

The Antediluvians are essentially demigods. Zapathasura was among the weakest ones, physically. And look at what it took to drop him. Killing them is possible but incredibly difficult. And effectively impossible for a few of them.

Now, Caine is technically an Antediluvian and would be almost unstoppable, considering he's basically a deity. Of course, considering the state of the world in the oWoD setting Caine either doesn't care or was asleep. Most likely didn't care, since he'd want to make sure that nothing could ever get the drop on him in the obscenely unlikely event pose an actual threat to his existence he had likely developed himself a way to remain fully aware of what was going on while he was in torpor. So while he could probably take over the 40k setting he most likely wouldn't even care. Hell, if the video game is at all canon he's a fucking cab driver.


Ultimately, it's pretty much impossible to say. Zapathasura is the only one we've got concrete indications of the capabilities of. There's basically no official outline of what the Antediluvians are truly capable of because they're simply a plot device. All that's known of them is that they exist, are horrifyingly powerful, and are by and large in torpor. Those that are awake and in some way active are doing so in a very subtle manner. Given what is known of their modus operandi, they'd at least be able to influence the Imperium as a whole by means of behind the scenes manipulations. As has been stated, White Wolf vampires are big on staying under the radar, instead manipulating and bribing things the way they want them. Yeah, some will use brute intimidation. But for the most part it's manipulation.

In all, I'd lean toward them being able to gain a good degree of influence over the Imperium of Man.

[Cykeisme]

In their fictional world, have these beings taken over the Earth?

[loomer]

Not really, no. They just don't have the numbers to do so.