What Would It Take?

[cadbrowser]

I was reading over in the History thread regarding WWII and weather or not the Allied powers knew they were going to win and etcetera. It got me thinking about G.I. Joe - The Rise of Cobra (film) and the idea on how it is essentially a terrorist organization hell bent on taking over the world starting with the US.

Key aspect is that Cobra appears to have advanced weaponary overall.

My question then is, what (in terms of time, equipment, technology, and manpower) would it take for such an organization to overthrow the US government?

For now, I'd like to assume current world statuses as well as it being not another country invading just an internal power struggle.

Since we have our military all over the world policing various countries (protecting America's interrest), I am wondering what homeland strengths as far as the US is concerned with regards to troop numbers, equipment, and etcetra.

Would the US government consider devastating one of it's larger cities to flush out a suspected terrorist cell at the cost of American civilian lives?

Would the UN get involved? Would we accept UN support? Would other countries seeing the struggle and side with the terrorist (in secret or openly) to help end the US's Global Influence?

[Block]

Since we have our military all over the world policing various countries (protecting America's interrest), I am wondering what homeland strengths as far as the US is concerned with regards to troop numbers, equipment, and etcetra.

We still have massive amounts of troops stateside, and our power structure is designed to survive massive nuclear strikes. This scenario couldn't happen.

[MrDakka]

IIRC Cobra at one time or another pretty much controlled a US city/town, right?

As for homeland strengths, a couple maybe more(off the top of my head: California, Texas, Virginia) states have state defense forces that are separate from the federal military (US military, National Guard). I don't know how well equipped these forces are or how they coordinate with the federal military branches.

If you watch the series Jericho, the US was devastated by nuclear bombs carried out by domestic terrorist groups who were on the leash of a certain government official.

[MrDakka]

We still have massive amounts of troops stateside, and our power structure is designed to survive massive nuclear strikes. This scenario couldn't happen.

Do you mean power as in electrical power? Because that is simply not the case. If you mean power as in continuity of government, then you're right. The US is pretty much invulnerable to a decapitation strike, with regards to nuclear warfare. The Cold War saw to that.

[cadbrowser]

IIRC Cobra at one time or another pretty much controlled a US city/town, right?

Good question, maybe in the original cartoon series they did, but I cannot honestly recall if they did on the actual movie that was released a while back ago. I don't think so, I'd have to watch the movie again.

Dang...I watched a movie just recently where a general on the inside attempted a Coup d'état and nearly succeeded. Just can't remember the name of the movie. But I'll have to check out Jericho.

We still have massive amounts of troops stateside, and our power structure is designed to survive massive nuclear strikes. This scenario couldn't happen.

I don't agree. There is no such thing as an immortal or impenetrable "kingdom"...that's wishfull thinking. E.G., Rome? U.S. is no different.

[Block]

I don't agree. There is no such thing as an immortal or impenetrable "kingdom"...that's wishfull thinking. E.G., Rome? U.S. is no different.

There are clear lines of succession that go down through every single member of congress. The US is currently not internally overthrowable by something other than a sizable portion of its own population. There's a reason the whole war on terror is such bullshit.

[Block]

We still have massive amounts of troops stateside, and our power structure is designed to survive massive nuclear strikes. This scenario couldn't happen.

Do you mean power as in electrical power? Because that is simply not the case. If you mean power as in continuity of government, then you're right. The US is pretty much invulnerable to a decapitation strike, with regards to nuclear warfare. The Cold War saw to that.

No, I'dve used infrastructure if I meant public utilities.

[cadbrowser]

I don't agree. There is no such thing as an immortal or impenetrable "kingdom"...that's wishfull thinking. E.G., Rome? U.S. is no different.

There are clear lines of succession that go down through every single member of congress. The US is currently not internally overthrowable by something other than a sizable portion of its own population. There's a reason the whole war on terror is such bullshit.

War on Terror? That's an entirely different matter. While I agree it's utter bullshit, it is only so (IMHO) due to the clear dumbassness of those running the show. It's not a true war on terrorism, it's a war on those states/countries that provide a clear "interrest" to America as opinionated by those in charge. Otherwise, more of our troops would be stationed in many other areas (even ones without...dare I say it...oil).

Be that as it may, I still contend for pure hypothetical reasons that a focused group (labeling them as terrorist may have been a mistake and detracted from the original intent of this thread) that has sufficiently advanced technoloy (parallel to COBRA in the film) relative to the US; could, over time, overthrow the government.

This was posted in the "Fiction" forum for a reason. To discuss what it would take. Your opinion regarding the ability for the government to survive a nuclear strike and handwaving it as "couldn't happen" is counterproductive. What does it matter? So what...all memebers of congress and the gov't is stuck in a few mountains. How does that prevent anything?

[Block]

I don't agree. There is no such thing as an immortal or impenetrable "kingdom"...that's wishfull thinking. E.G., Rome? U.S. is no different.

There are clear lines of succession that go down through every single member of congress. The US is currently not internally overthrowable by something other than a sizable portion of its own population. There's a reason the whole war on terror is such bullshit.

War on Terror? That's an entirely different matter. While I agree it's utter bullshit, it is only so (IMHO) due to the clear dumbassness of those running the show. It's not a true war on terrorism, it's a war on those states/countries that provide a clear "interrest" to America as opinionated by those in charge. Otherwise, more of our troops would be stationed in many other areas (even ones without...dare I say it...oil).

Be that as it may, I still contend for pure hypothetical reasons that a focused group (labeling them as terrorist may have been a mistake and detracted from the original intent of this thread) that has sufficiently advanced technoloy (parallel to COBRA in the film) relative to the US; could, over time, overthrow the government.

This was posted in the "Fiction" forum for a reason. To discuss what it would take. Your opinion regarding the ability for the government to survive a nuclear strike and handwaving it as "couldn't happen" is counterproductive. What does it matter? So what...all memebers of congress and the gov't is stuck in a few mountains. How does that prevent anything?

You asked what it would take. A massive uprising by the US population is what it would take, no small group, no matter how advanced could have a chance because of the safeguards built into the command and control structure of the US government and military. As for what the war on terror has to do with it, terrorism is not a real threat to the US for this same reason, which is why a global war on terrorism is just a way to keep the populace focused on external enemies and not actually fix the internal issues that exist.

[Luke Skywalker]

The technological capabilities, for example, needed would have to be greater than that of the United States military, which wouldn't make any sense, unless if this is a secret society of super geniuses or something akin to that.

Other than that, as others have said, you'd need such a massive proportion of the populace openly hostile to the government, that they would have voted Congress out a long time ago.

[Sidewinder]

There is no such thing as an immortal or impenetrable "kingdom"...that's wishfull thinking. E.G., Rome? U.S. is no different.

The fault lines on which an empire falls, are clearly visible, if only to the emperor in question (see the Soviet Union, whose government deceived its citizens regarding the state of its economy). The US doesn't have fault lines that deep- it may fall one day, but that day is not today or tomorrow.

The technological capabilities, for example, needed would have to be greater than that of the United States military, which wouldn't make any sense, unless if this is a secret society of super geniuses or something akin to that.

To match the US in military technology, requires a MASSIVE amount of money- something beyond the reach of any non-government organization currently in existence. Don't forget, quantity is a quality all its own; even if you develop a fighter superior to the F-22, a tank superior to the M1, or a warship superior to the Arleigh Burke class destroyer, can you build enough to win a war of attrition? (If you're curious how much money it'll take to overpower the US, I calculated what the military can buy if each citizen pays one dollar in taxes each day. Remember that each US citizen pays significantly more in taxes, in real life. Think you can match that?)

[Luke Skywalker]

Makes you wonder where Cobra gets its funding.

[Crateria]

Makes you wonder where Cobra gets its funding.

Those COBRA bake sales must raise a LOT of money.

[Ahriman238]

You'd have to replace the president with a skilled imposter. You still wouldn't rule the country, but you'd come as close as one man reasonably can. Conveniently, that's what they did in the movie.

If we go with the cartoon, no supervillain scheme is too crazy to try. But even if you make a volcano-weapon and hold the world hostage, you're a lot more likely to get a visit from the friendly neighborhood special forces than any actual political power.

[MrDakka]

If we go with the cartoon, no supervillain scheme is too crazy to try. But even if you make a volcano-weapon and hold the world hostage, you're a lot more likely to get a visit from the friendly neighborhood special forces than any actual political power.

A little covert action; problem solved
If some group attempted to hold the world hostage with some doomsday weapon, what do you think the world leaders would do? Form an international special forces group, a la Rainbow Six? Send multiple special forces groups from each country or just squabble over which country gets dibs to send their own guys?

[HMS Conqueror]

A private organisation could not build a conventional force to defeat the US military.

Nor could any current government.

[evilsoup]

The best bet would be to infiltrate the army etc and perform a coup at the right time.

[Sidewinder]

The best bet would be to infiltrate the army etc and perform a coup at the right time.

Considering US military service members are required to swear an oath to DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION- and by extension, the US government, which enforces the constitution- you need to infiltrate a MASSIVE amount of people to pull off a coup.

[MrDakka]

you need to infiltrate a MASSIVE amount of people to pull off a coup.

Hence why pulling off a coup in a country with an extremely centralized power structure (dictatorships) is relatively easy compared to doing so in a democracy.

[evilsoup]

I'm not saying it would be easy, just that it would be the least hard option.

And I don't see why swearing an oath would stop people from pulling off a coup? Don't all militaries have similar oaths? And yet that doesn't stop military coups from happening.

[Irbis]

Considering US military service members are required to swear an oath to DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION- and by extension, the US government, which enforces the constitution- you need to infiltrate a MASSIVE amount of people to pull off a coup.

Oh? Even if such oath was somehow magically binding all you need to check to see why such oath is meaningless is so-called Three Percenter movement. What right-wing wackos see as 'DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION' oath can be something very different to what a sane person sees, and they are popular with some units of US Army.

[Sidewinder]

The reason massive numbers of infiltrators are needed to pull off a coup, is to outnumber and overpower the LOYALISTS the standing government will undoubtably call upon to stop the coup. Bear in mind, when von Stauffenberg attempted to overthrow the Nazi regime, Hitler was able to have army units loyal to him, to crush the rebellion within HOURS.

[evilsoup]

Oh yeah definitely it would be hard. Maybe even harder in the US than most places, just for sheer size. But it would still be much easier than any other method. Another advantage of infiltrating like this is that it would spread confusion and chaos amongst the ranks, whereas a more defined enemy to fight would be crushed relatively easier by the unified military machine.

[Simon_Jester]

Considering US military service members are required to swear an oath to DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION- and by extension, the US government, which enforces the constitution- you need to infiltrate a MASSIVE amount of people to pull off a coup.

Oh? Even if such oath was somehow magically binding all you need to check to see why such oath is meaningless is so-called Three Percenter movement. What right-wing wackos see as 'DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION' oath can be something very different to what a sane person sees, and they are popular with some units of US Army.

Irbis, I don't know if you know this, but there are not enough of them to go around.

To stage a military coup, you need more than just a handful of loyal units. You need the great mass of the army to passively sit there and take the orders. Look at what's happening in Mali, with a bunch of Army captains trying to overthrow the government and having this "fuuuck" moment when they realize no one is acknowledging their government and that most of the military isn't obeying their orders. Meanwhile, the civilian government systematically cuts off utilities to the major government buildings the coup troops boldly seized on the opening day.

Which reminds me of something I heard repeated, when a guy was talking about a 1960s radical group in the US that was sitting around someone's living room plotting revolution. The speaker was the... call him the designated sober guy, as I recall it.

Loony: "So what we do is, we march on Washington in force! Ten thousand of us!"
Sobersides: "What then?"
Loony: "We seize the Pentagon!"
Sobersides: "Yeah, really? What do we do then?"
Loony: "Issue orders!"
Sobersides: "Who would listen?"

[jollyreaper]

Forget the movie. The real question is the Cobra of the Larry Hama comics. And no, it's not really possible. The thing that was so cool about the comics is that he was able to make you think it could happen.

The way to look at True Ultimate Power is that it's usually a means to an end. The comic book and toy line mentality is that it's all about having awesome fighter jets and ninja assassins and private armies but that sort of thing is a means to an end. It's a needless extravagance.

After the fall of the Soviet Union the techno-thriller authors were desperately looking for plausible enemies for the US military-industrial complex to be unleashed against. They kept coming up blank.

It's pretty freaking awesome to imagine some guy going from being a used car salesman to going into multi-level marketing bullshit like Amway to freelance terrorism to eventually putting together an international terrorist organization like Cobra. But much like Ayn Rand's objectivism, it only works in the fevered minds of teenagers.

Cobra wouldn't exist to be terrorists. Terrorism would be a means to an end. And terrorism is pretty much the tactic used by the weak against the strong. "We might not be able to defeat you in a fair fight but we can fuck up your loved ones." Some might classify it as guerrilla warfare.

But, to run with your premise, what would it take for Cobra to win? Well, what is Cobra? What are they offering? Why would an up and coming go-getter sign on with them rather than their own country?

Cobra would represent a meritocracy. No ties to the existing power structure in your own country? No worries. If you have ambition, if you're willing to fuck your own grandma for a seat at the table of power, you're our kind of guy. There is no limit to what you can accomplish so long as you believe greed is good and desire is the highest calling of the human animal. If you want it, you can have it, so long as you earn it. All is permitted under the law.

Of course, the philosophical underpinnings of conflict are not what we typically think of when we think of a good, comic book fight between people with cool toys. If dictators are oppressing their people, the fight is not going to involve tank on tank and jet on jet. There may be tanks and jets but they'll all belong to the dictator and will be stomping the shit out of the amateurs. If you're not talking nation-state versus nation-state in an existential battle for survival, it's going to be proxy wars in pissant client states using weapons supplied by powerful nation-states.