Realm of Ultramar vs UNSC

[wautd]

Right, I'm not too familiar with the Halo Universe, except that their pretty powerful (what with fuckhuge space ships that can glass planets). They're still several leagues below the Imperium of Man offcourse, but how would the UNSC compare against the Kingdom of the Smurfs with their 400-500 planets?

If still too lopsided, the UNSC will form an unholy alliance with the xeno-filth that calls themselves the Covenant.

[BLACKSUN2000]

The UNSC has never been shown to glass planets, the firepower of their MAC weapons vary wildly. The covenant were the ones capable of glassing worlds, and I think there was some sort of retcon in the newest Halo game that stated that the covenant couldn't glass planets. It was pretty much a bluff to scare their enemies, however they could still damage a planet to the point of it looking like an all out nuclear war.

although this was second hand information, so don't quote me.

[Blayne]

They do glass worlds, they end up being called "glasslands" as a result (and glassed the entirety (or was it half I dn't recall what Admiral Hood said) of Africa in Halo 3). Maybe not entirely but the only example I've seen in the books that humans return to only had 1 million colonists on it so the Covenant only likely glassed the populated portions and moved on. We can define that at a minimum the Covenant wipe out all human life from the world so significant chunks certainly do end up glassed.

So maybe they are still capable of supporting life but a few likely aren't anymore like Reach.

The UNSC has however been known to at least plan for the eventuality of bombarding a world with nuclear armament, the code they send out for when a colony is being glassed was in place in ONI and UNSC Woodentop Navy lexicon prior to the Human-Covenant war in case the Insurrection managed to get control of a planet.

This all being from Halo 3, Reach (book), First Strike, Onyx and Glasslands.

Now this all depends on how powerful the Ultramar are, I never heard of them before and may need to find the wiki for them and on what time period.

From Ghosts of Onyx we know that the Covenant often had to set up in theater fabrication centers to produce warships and spareparts, so that throughout the 28-year Human-Covenant war the Covenant had not been fighting with their stock warfleet but had to "gear up" when it became known (From the Cole Protocal and Contact Harvest) to the Covenant that the Humans were not just isolated to Harvest and were a annoyingly large space faring civilization.

From Halo 2 we see that the fleet delegated to escourting the mobile capital world of the Covenant (High Charity) seems to number from the low to high hundreds of capital ships, this could be the bulk of their fleet concentrated at their most holy of holy places or a typical fleet around important Covenant worlds. From Halo Reach (the book, I hadn't gotten far in the game because I suck at it) we know the Covenant dedicated a massive fleet of some 600 warships to take it out and lost a good chunk of that and this was an unprecedented fleet until then, repeated only in Halo First Strike which was rallying to strike at Earth. Since the Covenant had not typically until then used such numbers it stands to reason that they knew the relative importance Reach and Earth were to the Humans and hoped to cripple and wipe out the Human threat respectively and attached the importance due.

However only 50 ships were used to strike Earth (successfully how vs 300 MAC canons? I never understood this), though this was clearly because the left hand of the Covenant not knoweth the right and didn't realize this was Earth.

Then came the Covenant civil war, Truth returning to Earth with the Forerunner Dreadnaught and escorts, here we can presume the Brutes fighting the Elites in roughly equal numbers did much to destroy most of the Covenant fleet, another large one led by Elites went kaput at Onyx.

I realize I'm rambling and I apologize but I wished to give a sufficient backdrop to the Haloverse and provide context only sorta implied in the games. Suffice it to say that at the end of Halo 3 the Covenant are in no position to fight anyone, they are on the brink of their own insurrection led by Human Haters and Religious Fundies, fighting the Brutes still and afriad that the Prophets may come back and all of the Engineers (the race of balloon like people who maintain all of the advance stuff) fled in the fighting and no one knows where they went and ONI nabbed the last one.

And the Humans have pretty much just Earth and maybe a few dozen colonies still flying the UNSC flag, a few more not glassed but in revolt blaming Earth for not protecting them and the rest are glassed with billions dead, Earth itself lost 1 billion. So we're not down to 800 million as I've seen the Wiki claim but we got our nuts kicked and aren't about to start a fight (ONI shenanigans notwithstanding) and the Covenant are realistically in the same position just slightly better off in absolute terms but have deeper structural problems.

Essentially the Humans are liked 1945 Europe and the Covenant are like 1991 former Soviet Union.

So if you were to pluck down the Ultramar right next to Human and Covenant space I would say that while the UNSC and the Sangheli could get a few likes in unless their stuff is fantastically more advanced than the Ultramar their screwed.

[Imperial528]

The Ultramarines (Ultramar is the area of space they rule over) are from Warhammer 40k. I'm not very knowledgeable of 40k, but from my own reading, if it came to Ultramarines VS UNSC and Covenant (Both at their heights) the Ultramarines would win easily enough. Especially since it seems that a Space Marine is at the least equal to a Spartan, and at most would be able to toss one like a rag doll.
Link for more information here.

For OP, do the Ultramarines get their Primarch?

[Aaron MkII]

It isn't. This will end badly for the UNSC, Ultramar will certainly have them outmanned and outgunned, each planet possesses its own army, and system defence boats, so depending on how halo ftl works they will have to fight all they way in.

Pretty sure there will be an imperial battlefleet, probably several in Ultramar as well. Once it becomes known that the UNSC possesses a copy of Holy Terrace, we'll its crusade time and smurf drop pods will be falling pretty quick.

Oh god, giving them Guilliman is just rubbing salt in there.

[wautd]

For OP, do the Ultramarines get their Primarch?

No, that would be overkill. This is Ultramar during the 40th millennium

[Aaron MkII]

Sorry about the terrible spelling, my tablet autocorrect appears to hate me.

[Ahriman238]

For OP, do the Ultramarines get their Primarch?

No, that would be overkill. This is Ultramar during the 40th millennium

So instead of the Ultramar that got assraped by the World Bearers we get the Ultramar that saw off Behemoth? Sure, that's an improvement for the UNSC.

@Blayne: Thanks for the info, everything I know about Halo came from playing Halo 2.

We're talking about the Ultramar sector of the Imperium of Man, from Warhammer 40,000. I haven't read Know No Fear yet, so I'm still of the impression they have less than a dozen worlds directly administerd by the Ultramarines. But these are very militant, self-sufficient worlds with a reasonable sized-fleet and vast and well trained armies.

Plus, they're ruled over by an army of supersoldiers, a thousand strong, who make the Spartans look pretty pedestrian. 40K ships also frequently have the ability to glass worlds. I do not see this ending well for Halo.

[Black Admiral]

Using the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar indicates it is Heresy era, which means Guilliman and 250,000 Ultramarines running around the place.

To be honest I would like to see the Covenant try to attack one of the major worlds of Ultramar, if only for the expression on a hypothetical Elite Fleetmaster's face when he gets a good look at the defence grid thereof. I quote;

The tower supports its own manifold field, and is inloading data to him and the other seniors at a rate equivalent to the noospheric broadcast of eight hundred Battle Titans. Sixty Moderati of the highest quality, working in amniotic armourglass caskets set into the deck, help to cushion this flow and parse it for comprehension.

From this deck, from this summit, Hesst can issue - by means of a simple command code across his permanent MIU link - the order to commit the planet's weapon grid. Two hundred and fifty thousand surface based weapons stations, including silo launchers and automated plasma ordnance, plus tower and turret guns, field stations, polar weapons pits. He can activate the immense void shield systems that umbrella Calth's principal habitation centres. He can bring online the nine hundred and sixty two orbital platforms, which include outward-facing protection systems and surface-aiming interdiction networks. Furthermore he can harness and coordinate any and all available forces on the ground, and any fleet composition assembling at high anchor or in the shipyards.
- Know No Fear, pg. 68

It's also discussed that there's no single point that can be hit to disable the the defence grid; it's designed so that if the Watchtower (the command centre of the grid) is destroyed, there are other data-centres, both on Calth's surface and in orbit, and other tech-adepts, that can take over.

When the grid cuts loose;

There is a glimmer. A flash. Beams of coherent energy, beams of staggering magnitude, rip from Calth and its orbital stations.

Calth has a weapons grid capable of keeping at bay an entire expeditionary fleet or primary battlegroup. Only the most devious and ingenious treachery has circumvented it today.

The weapons grid begins to discharge. Calth begins to kill the neighbouring planets in the Veridian System.

It starts with a massive asteroid world that orbits the system beyond the circuit of Calth's moons. The asteroid, called Alamasta, is the main remnant of a planet that once occupied that orbital slot. It is now a rock the size of a major satellite.

It is no longer called Alamasta. It is known as Veridia Forge. It is the system's principal Mechanicum station, and the most significant manufacturing venue in six systems.

Veridia Forge is helpless, its systems crashed by the same scrapcode that brought the Calth grid down.

It has no shields, no responsive weaponry, and no means of evasion.

It takes four prolonged strikes from the weapons grid. The first two burn away surface rock and immolate rockcrete bastions or adamantine bulwarks. The third voids the main fabricatory to space, and combusts the forge world's reactor power systems.

The fourth causes Veridia Forge to explode like a newborn star.

For the next eighteen minutes, Calth has no nightside.
- Know No Fear, pg. 225

Later;

Kor Phaeron steps forward and places his left hand on the master control.

He presses it.

The weapons grid begins to fire. Concentrated and coherent energy. Shoals of missiles. Destructive beams. Warheads of antimatter sheathed in heavy metals. The rays and beams will take almost eight minutes to reach their target. The hard projectiles will take considerably longer. But they will all hit in turn, and continue to strike again and again as the merciless bombardment continues.

Their target is the blue-white star of the Veridian System.

Kor Phaeron begins to murder the sun.
- Know No Fear, pg. 347

[wautd]

For OP, do the Ultramarines get their Primarch?

No, that would be overkill. This is Ultramar during the 40th millennium

So instead of the Ultramar that got assraped by the World Bearers we get the Ultramar that saw off Behemoth? Sure, that's an improvement for the UNSC.
.

Oh I see, I thought Ultramar was weaker in 40K compared to 30K, that's why I picked 40K.

[Ahriman238]

Oh I see, I thought Ultramar was weaker in 40K compared to 30K.

Actually, they probably are weaker. Irrespective of how their most famous battles turned out. If nothing else, the Ultras of 30K had a legendary tactician and commander, placed a higher emphasis on individual initiative, and had 200x as many smurfs to fight with.

I'm just saying, Papa Smurf Calgar hasn't done badly for himself.

[Black Admiral]

Oh I see, I thought Ultramar was weaker in 40K compared to 30K.

It's certainly smaller - down to eight (well, technically nine counting in Prandium, which was destroyed by Hivefleet Behemoth) worlds - Espandor, Tarentus, Masali, Quintarn, Talassar, Calth, Iax and Macragge - rather than the five hundred-odd they had c. M31, and the defence grids have really gone downhill since the old days (I foresee many pairs of browned armour trousers if Honsou and the goon brigade tried invading Ultramar c. M31 - probably just after the Calth Grid cuts loose and atomises the Indomitable and M'kar with it).

[Blayne]

I don't want to dump on anyone's parade but most of what we know about the Imperium and the Space Marine's is mostly propoganda isn't it (The Codex's)?

The average Space Marine strong/faster than a Spartan? Sure I'll grant that but are they *smarter* do they work as well in a team? Can they think up imaginative solutions to various problems irrespective of ideological or religious constraints? And if the best our Supersoldiers from 40,000 years in the future can do is charge unimaginatively (more of the Imperial Guard's thing I know but the Space Marines can't be that more imaginative) across a battlefield littered with nuclear warheads repurposed as mines (the UNSC would do this if it netted them the advantage Kursk style) the ground war is going to be a bit more evenly matched than we give credit for.

I don't know, the situation has a certain je ne c'est quois to it, it's like asking if a SS Panzer corps would win against Ming China at it's height. Sure there is a disparity in firepower but if it's the most recent Ultramarines the situation may be more evenly matched than we are giving credit to.

In the rule books we know a squad of Space Marines (This is what people tell me I concede I have not played tabletop) can be wiped out by a single Leman Russ MBT, this implied they aren't invincible and that heavy enough armament can destroy or wound them.

To which we have the Scorpion and Wraith main battle tanks which certainly at least seem like with a direct hit could take out a space marines, though without specific numbers as to how thick Space Marine armor is equivilent to steel at what angle (900mm at 45 degrees?, 1300mm? 2000mm? Modern ATGM's I think can handle up to 1800mm at 45 degrees) and what can the UNSC tank penetrate. My impression is that the Plasma weaponry of the Covenant works vs anything and this would still hold true in the 40k Universe.

But ultimately it comes down to space, ground combat only matters if there's something of absolute importance that needed to be secured, for the Covenant this was Forerunner artifacts and to knock out the power for MAC cannons, for the Humans it was keeping the Covenant from getting them to discourage the Covenant from glassing the world when they were done.

So what are the ranges of Ultramarine/Imperium main cannons? How fast can they travel through space? How large are they? If the UNSC-Covenant can outrange their ships than they can outrange their orbital battle stations possibly before moving in to glass until the void shields buckle.

We also know that Covenant shields can take several hits from relativistic weaponry before collapsing and can still fight on albeit crippled from a salvo of nuclear warheads detonating against their hull. Human ships tend to be paper in comparison but it's heavily implied by the end of Glasslands that the UNSC finally worked out shields for their ships.

[Purple]

The average Space Marine strong/faster than a Spartan? Sure I'll grant that but are they *smarter* do they work as well in a team? Can they think up imaginative solutions to various problems irrespective of ideological or religious constraints?

This is the Realm of Ultramar we are talking about. As in the Ultrasmurfs. Not only is it a very unified area of space where everything is responsible not to various power structures but to the Ultrasmurfs alone. But what you just described above is pretty much the Ultrasmurfs hat. The ROU is quite possibly the one single place in that entire galaxy where your argument is invalid. But it just so happens that we are talking about said place and no other.

[Blayne]

Ah I see, so no easy victories then so it will actually come down to good generalship and best use of their respective technologies. Though again space is the ultimate highground and do we know the ranges of Ultrasmurf (I love this nickname, I will keep it) warships and their sublight and ftl speeds?

[Academia Nut]

I don't want to dump on anyone's parade but most of what we know about the Imperium and the Space Marine's is mostly propoganda isn't it (The Codex's)?

No, the various fluff books give us greater insight into things than the Codices. Connor has gone through a great number of these in the various threads littering this forum.

The average Space Marine strong/faster than a Spartan

Disregarding the game mechanics flipping of tanks thing, enormously.

Sure I'll grant that but are they *smarter* do they work as well in a team? Can they think up imaginative solutions to various problems irrespective of ideological or religious constraints? And if the best our Supersoldiers from 40,000 years in the future can do is charge unimaginatively (more of the Imperial Guard's thing I know but the Space Marines can't be that more imaginative) across a battlefield littered with nuclear warheads repurposed as mines (the UNSC would do this if it netted them the advantage Kursk style) the ground war is going to be a bit more evenly matched than we give credit for.

Despite what video game cutscenes show, the Space Marines rarely rush across battlefields like that, since while they rarely use atomics in 40k for cultural reasons, they have plenty of weapons just as potent such as Titans, which are considerably worse than nuclear mine fields. Plus, they can be imaginative if they want to be, and they work extremely closely together. The Spartans have worked together for a few decades, the SMs have ten millennia of tradition and their veteran members will have worked with each other for centuries. They are smooth and coordinated, and they serve primarily as pin point shock troops that destroy key points. They do drop pod, Thunderhawk and teleport assaults on leadership and logistic points, moving in quickly to close quarters where their size, strength, speed and firepower allows them to inflict tremendous damage. They are the guys who go in first and blow up ground batteries so that the IG can land safely or kick in the doors of a command bunker and wipe out the generals.

In the rule books we know a squad of Space Marines (This is what people tell me I concede I have not played tabletop) can be wiped out by a single Leman Russ MBT, this implied they aren't invincible and that heavy enough armament can destroy or wound them.

To which we have the Scorpion and Wraith main battle tanks which certainly at least seem like with a direct hit could take out a space marines, though without specific numbers as to how thick Space Marine armor is equivilent to steel at what angle (900mm at 45 degrees?, 1300mm? 2000mm? Modern ATGM's I think can handle up to 1800mm at 45 degrees) and what can the UNSC tank penetrate. My impression is that the Plasma weaponry of the Covenant works vs anything and this would still hold true in the 40k Universe.

The Covenant plasma would be considered a sad joke in 40k, considering that the Imperials can fit anti-tank weaponry into pistols. It would probably be considered a lesser version of Tau plasma weapons, which can take down Space Marines, but not reliably since their armour can take quite a bit of punishment from Tau weaponry before going down. The main cannon of a Scorpion can probably take out a SM, the problem being that a bolter can probably at least mission kill a Scorpion with all the exposed bits on it. This is to say nothing of the various specialist weapons Space Marine squads typically carry. They have man portable anti-tank lasers and rifle sized fusion guns that can turn their own tanks into molten slag. And not just Space Marine 'man portable', they have versions for the standard humans too. Also, the UNSC is set up to fight quick skirmishes before pulling out, while the Imperial ones, especially those of Ultramar, are set up to fight either protracted sieges or mobile warfare equally well. They carry heavier and meaner kit as standard.

But ultimately it comes down to space, ground combat only matters if there's something of absolute importance that needed to be secured, for the Covenant this was Forerunner artifacts and to knock out the power for MAC cannons, for the Humans it was keeping the Covenant from getting them to discourage the Covenant from glassing the world when they were done.

So what are the ranges of Ultramarine/Imperium main cannons? How fast can they travel through space? How large are they? If the UNSC-Covenant can outrange their ships than they can outrange their orbital battle stations possibly before moving in to glass until the void shields buckle.

Imperial ships typically engage each other at ranges of light seconds, with combat speeds measured in fractions of c. It's rather inconsistent at times, but I'm pretty sure Connor has clocked fluff as indicating ships can cruise at 0.5c, with their weapons being either energy weapons that fire at c or near c, and their projectiles high fractional c too. Incidentally, since MAC cannons fire at something like 0.1c this means the Imperial ships can outrun the guns of the UNSC. It would be like a horse archer trying to hit a supersonic jet.

[Black Admiral]

Know No Fear provides a good example of what "emergency over-boost" looks like for IoM ships, with the fleet tender Campanile going from essentially coasting velocity (while manoeuvring for docking) to ~40% of lightspeed inside of two minutes after kicking in "main extending thrust" (what IoM ships use for boosting out-system for Warp jumps). For various reasons this is a high-end example (such as engine wear or potential catastrophic failure of the Campanile's main drive not being concerns), but it provides an upper-end.

[Lord Revan]

correct me if I'm wrong hasn't the organizational changes of the Astrades after the heresy actually only emphizied the use of "speartip" tactics in the SM battle doctrine?

[Connor MacLeod]

Know No Fear provides a good example of what "emergency over-boost" looks like for IoM ships, with the fleet tender Campanile going from essentially coasting velocity (while manoeuvring for docking) to ~40% of lightspeed inside of two minutes after kicking in "main extending thrust" (what IoM ships use for boosting out-system for Warp jumps). For various reasons this is a high-end example (such as engine wear or potential catastrophic failure of the Campanile's main drive not being concerns), but it provides an upper-end.

There's a small problem with that

Main extending thrust is a drive condition used for principal acceleration, the maximum output that takes a starship to the brink of realspace velocity as it makes the translation to the empyrean. It is a condition that is used as a starship moves away from a planet towards the nearest viable Mandeville Point, a distance that is roughly half the radius of an average star system.

There is no such long run-up here. The Campanile is already inside the orbit of Calth’s satellite. There is not enough range for it to reach anything like maximum output or velocity. Even so, it is travelling at something close to the order of forty per cent of the realspace limit as it reaches the edge of the atmosphere.

First off, 'forty percent of the realspace limit' is actually vague for good reason. While lightspeed is an absolute limit, propellant is also going to be a limit as well (well so will exhaust velocity, but I'm oversimplifying.) and that can impose limits that are far less than lightspeed depending on various parameters. For example there is the old Space fleet (or the rogue trader RPG stats) of a starship taking weeks to travel across a system at 1% of lightspeed. 40% of 3000 km/s is only 1200 km/s (which is not triviail, reaching 1200 km/s in 2 minutes still requires something like 10 km/s^2.) Or if you use the Gav Thorpe acceleration/velocity figures (days or weeks to travel between planets in a system, like in Angels of darkness) you can get top velocities of a few hundred km/s or maybe a thousand km/s or so tops for emergency. At that rate, you're 'only' at hundreds of km/s (which can still lead to tens or hundreds of gees accel.)

Secondly, the quote (as noted above) specifies that this sort of thrust is usually across a whole system, but that they're reaching 40% of c in/around the Orbit of Calth and its moons which, depending on how far away it is can impose its own limits.

There's also the not-so-minor problem that with reaction thrusters once you get beyond a certain point (somehwere in the thousands of gees range) you start running into problems balancing acceleration and the length of time you can thrust (SW ships had this problem, and I've never found a way around it short of technobabbel like 'mass lightening')

[Connor MacLeod]

No, the various fluff books give us greater insight into things than the Codices. Connor has gone through a great number of these in the various threads littering this forum.

True, although not everyone agrees with my conclusions on things, as is there right. There is still a range of possibilities depending on what interpretation one favours, but obviously I do believe mine is pretty internally consistent

Disregarding the game mechanics flipping of tanks thing, enormously.

Depends on the source. If the novels and encyclopedias still have any validity, I'd think the Spartans might have at least some edge in the strength at least. I dont think they have flipped tanks per se (then again maybe they did) but they ave done things like lift motorcycle like vehicles (it happened in one of the 'meh' novels I forget which) and literally beats people to death with it Jet-Li style (although it strained her muscles to do it, as I recall.) I also believe the Spartans have flipped Warthogs over onto their feet, and that's not exactly trivial eitehr.

an unarmored space Marine (as per Angels of Darkness) is 10x stronger than a Marine, and one of the Night Lords novels (Soul Hunter, I think) specifies that the power armour amplifies strength by a factor of ten, meaning a power armour marine could (in theory) be 100 times stronger. A space wolf short story in Let the Galaxy burn mentions power armour providing strength dozens of times greater than a normal man. Actual strength varies depending on various factors (how its used, the power output devoted to the suit for strength purposes, etc.) The last Night Lords novel (Void Stalker) had Talos running at some 80 km/hr, and wolf's honour had Space Wolves moving at 60 km/hr, and Emperor's Mercy had a CSM moving at 40+ km/hr. IIRC one of the Nylund novels had Spartans sprinting at something like 60 kph or so, so Marines seem like they could match or exceed that, at least over short distances (Again like with strength it can depend on power allocation, as well as terrain and whether we're talking about a short-distance sprint or long distance trek.)

Despite what video game cutscenes show, the Space Marines rarely rush across battlefields like that, since while they rarely use atomics in 40k for cultural reasons, they have plenty of weapons just as potent such as Titans, which are considerably worse than nuclear mine fields. Plus, they can be imaginative if they want to be, and they work extremely closely together. The Spartans have worked together for a few decades, the SMs have ten millennia of tradition and their veteran members will have worked with each other for centuries. They are smooth and coordinated, and they serve primarily as pin point shock troops that destroy key points. They do drop pod, Thunderhawk and teleport assaults on leadership and logistic points, moving in quickly to close quarters where their size, strength, speed and firepower allows them to inflict tremendous damage. They are the guys who go in first and blow up ground batteries so that the IG can land safely or kick in the doors of a command bunker and wipe out the generals.

While there are some general similarities in Space Marine approach, many of them actually vary from Chapter to Chapter in how they fight. I'm pretty sure some can (at least at some points) do that 'rush across battlefields' thing, even if its over a short distance.

That said I'm rather skeptical that their first idea is going to be to just run across a open field full of mines (as if they're going to have no ability to detect fission warheads or anything like that, or give the Spartans time to actually prepare the terrain like that. And assuming they don't thunderhawk, jump pack or drop pod in. Or just stand across the field and shoot at them, since they do carry guns (and generally REMEMBER they're carrying guns.)

The Covenant plasma would be considered a sad joke in 40k, considering that the Imperials can fit anti-tank weaponry into pistols. It would probably be considered a lesser version of Tau plasma weapons, which can take down Space Marines, but not reliably since their armour can take quite a bit of punishment from Tau weaponry before going down.

Covenant plasma weapons is not an analogue to 40k plasma weapons (which are a heavy anti-armour/anti tank weapon, depending on design or configuration. I should note not all of them are 'OMG BURN PEOPLE TO ASH' type plasma weapons, they tend to vary in construction and capability.) but more akin to lasguns in output (although I'd bet lasguns would have greater range.)

The main cannon of a Scorpion can probably take out a SM, the problem being that a bolter can probably at least mission kill a Scorpion with all the exposed bits on it. This is to say nothing of the various specialist weapons Space Marine squads typically carry. They have man portable anti-tank lasers and rifle sized fusion guns that can turn their own tanks into molten slag. And not just Space Marine 'man portable', they have versions for the standard humans too. Also, the UNSC is set up to fight quick skirmishes before pulling out, while the Imperial ones, especially those of Ultramar, are set up to fight either protracted sieges or mobile warfare equally well. They carry heavier and meaner kit as standard.

I do think its pretty silly that the previous poster assumed that they were going to send Space Marines against tanks simply baesd on 'rulebooks'. I mean its not as if they don't have tanks of their own (Predators or Land Raiders? What are those?) And it's not like the IG is going to sit out any conflict. I'd love to see a UNSC tank face off against a Baneblade. Hell the White Scars (and a few of Guilliman's 'descendants') seem to love armoured warfare.

Imperial ships typically engage each other at ranges of light seconds, with combat speeds measured in fractions of c. It's rather inconsistent at times, but I'm pretty sure Connor has clocked fluff as indicating ships can cruise at 0.5c, with their weapons being either energy weapons that fire at c or near c, and their projectiles high fractional c too. Incidentally, since MAC cannons fire at something like 0.1c this means the Imperial ships can outrun the guns of the UNSC. It would be like a horse archer trying to hit a supersonic jet.

Nova cannons range from 5000 km/s to 'close to lightspeed', and there are also bombardment cannon (upwards of a quarter lightspeed) and macro cannon and mass drivers. (thousands or tens of thousands of km/s upwards.) MAC cannons can (by some sources) get up to 40% of c, but on the other hand other sources put them as low as 30 km/s (or merely supersonic, but then again that's applied to macro cannon too.). I tend to go with the 'Contact Harvest' implied 6-7 thousand km/s for a 100-160 ton shell for MACs. Space Marine vessels (some at least) tend to be outranged by their navy equivalents, but given the 'variability' of MACs, I doubt the UNSC can really throw stones when it comes to ranges or velocities.

40K space based weaponr ycan range from tetrajoules to 'omfg how big a prefix are you going to stick tho those tonnes' depending on your context (I'm looking at you, Night Lords blowing up Nostramo.) A cruiser las broadside is 'only' 15 terajoules by one source, but of course torpedoes (which can be hundreds or thousands of tonnes) can move at tens or hundreds of km/s usually. Macro cannon and others move almost certainly as fast, and can range from a few tons to severel hundred tonnes at least (should be kiloton-megaton range per shell easily.) Oh and there are the space hulk GIGATONNAGE nukes, assuming you don't run across someone who tries to pass that off as 'retconned' (40K having a canon policy? HAH!)

[Ahriman238]

The Blood Angels and Space Wolves charge the enemy screaming. The Imp. Fists either turtle up or prepare to crack you out of your shell. The Scars generally apply high-mobility lightning strikes, with the occasional clever ambush, being Space Mongols. Raven Guard step out of the shadows to slit your throat after a string of accidents kill all the rest of your command staff. The Dark Angels shoot at you for a while and then wander off to find the Fallen, the Salamanders employ generous pyrotechnics, and the Iron Hands decide to replace their limbs with the perfect weapon to defeat you.

Of all of these, the smurfs are at once the most and least dangerous. See, Guilliman, who was an outstanding general even in his age of incredible commanders, wrote the original Codex Astartes, sort of an Art of War for the far future, with both general ruminations on war and tens of thousands of specific tactical scenarios. In the old days, this was a tool to enhance the tactical abilities of each Marine, by the 41st Millennium it has become dogma. So the smurfs are predictable enough if you've read their book and don't pull one of the commanders (Calgar, Ventriel) willing to abandon it when practical. On the other hand, it has endured for 10,000 years largely because it is so thorough, comprehensive, and generally useful.

I do think its pretty silly that the previous poster assumed that they were going to send Space Marines against tanks simply baesd on 'rulebooks'. I mean its not as if they don't have tanks of their own (Predators or Land Raiders? What are those?) And it's not like the IG is going to sit out any conflict. I'd love to see a UNSC tank face off against a Baneblade. Hell the White Scars (and a few of Guilliman's 'descendants') seem to love armoured warfare.

Isn't there a "Spear of Macragge" whose supposed to be the greatest armor commander in the entire Imperium? Anyway, what are Devastators for if not to rack up obscene numbers of armor kills?

[Black Admiral]

Of all of these, the smurfs are at once the most and least dangerous. See, Guilliman, who was an outstanding general even in his age of incredible commanders, wrote the original Codex Astartes, sort of an Art of War for the far future, with both general ruminations on war and tens of thousands of specific tactical scenarios. In the old days, this was a tool to enhance the tactical abilities of each Marine, by the 41st Millennium it has become dogma. So the smurfs are predictable enough if you've read their book and don't pull one of the commanders (Calgar, Ventriel) willing to abandon it when practical. On the other hand, it has endured for 10,000 years largely because it is so thorough, comprehensive, and generally useful.

The situation is rather more complicated than that. The Codex is a living document, meant to be constantly updated to include new tactics and account for new experiences. That some Ultramarines c. M41 tend to use the already-written portions as a crutch is true, but I don't think Uriel's any better prior to The Chapter's Due, considering that it's only then he stops thinking like a squad sergeant and starts thinking like a company commander. Consider that by his bone-headedness he incurred a bunch of unnecessary casualties on Pavonis the first time round, and on Tarsis Ultra cravenly abrogated his command responsibility to unnecessarily insert himself into the Deathwatch team. Calgar was perfectly justified in kicking his arse out.

Isn't there a "Spear of Macragge" whose supposed to be the greatest armor commander in the entire Imperium?

Sergeant Antaro Chronus of the Ultramarines' Armoury bears that title, yes; it's not like he hasn't earned it, since he's the best tank commander the Ultramarines have (and that's who the title's for).

[PainRack]

Isn't there a "Spear of Macragge" whose supposed to be the greatest armor commander in the entire Imperium?

Sergeant Antaro Chronus of the Ultramarines' Armoury bears that title, yes; it's not like he hasn't earned it, since he's the best tank commander the Ultramarines have (and that's who the title's for).

The best part of all is, the Spear of MacRagge is a title that's pre Heresy. Given that other Chapters don't have this position, its clear that this isn't a Codex approved position.

He has 50 Space Marines operating under him and he reports directly to the Chapter Master, as opposed to the typical Armour element which draws Marines from the reserve companies(6th and 7th IIRC).

So, even the Ultramarines aren't fully Codex compliant.

[Kinyo]

As far as I remember the armour elements where separate from infantry elements of the chapter. Taking troops from the reserve companies for armour detail takes away from the 106 in each company the codex calls for.

It's true members from the 8th company do serve in land speeders that seems to be the exception in terms of armoured units rather than the rule if I remember correctly.

[Lord Revan]

aren't the Tyranid war veteran squads another formation that's strickly speaking not codex approved, yet it's something that the Ultramarines use (or at least used during previous editions) and that doesn't have the excuse of being a pre-heresy tradition.