Unit Frontages - for Warhammer 40K fic

[Zinegata]

Been planning to do another big Warhammer 40K fanfic (possibly novel-length this time for Nanowrimo), and playing some East Front (WW2) wargames has given me some inspiration. If you've read my previous Warhammer fic, it features the same Mechanized Regiment (the BrennMech in Legacy of Steel).

However, one area where I found myself lacking good information is the average "frontage" for attack / defense of a unit. Not wanting to embarass myself by having a regiment of 3,000 guys cover an unrealistically huge front, I tried to get some prelimenary data, such as...

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25320

Which quotes how a World War 1 British Division had an average frontage of 7km, and this...

http://balagan.org.uk/war/ww2/snippet/i ... ntages.htm

Which gives the frontage of various units in the East Front - with my particular interest being the 4km frontage per Division that the Soviets used in the attack.

I'm thinking that for the infantry-heavy regiments (each having 10,000 riflemen with modest artillery and minimal tank support), I could just copy the 4 km frontage for the Soviet Divisions on the attack; which is fine since Warhammer 40K combat seems closer to WW2 combat anyway.

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But my problem is the mechanized regiment (3,000 infantry, with 300 IFVs + 50 tanks, 50 recce units, and mortar-based mobile arty - basically this unit is closer to a modern Armored Cav Regiment with real MBTs, IFVs, and long-ranged man portable anti-tank assets). Realistically, what would be the maximum frontage that such a unit can cover on the defense? Terrain will be mostly clear farmland with a few villages and hills in between. The info that I got so far is this:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/uni ... artzog.htm

Which puts a US heavy division's frontage at 120km. Would a 40km frontage (10 times the attack frontage of the 10,000-man regiments) represent the absolute maximum they can cover, and any more would result in them getting horribly overextended? Or is this already on the crazy side?

[thejester]

If it's based on a modern ACR on the defence your best bet is to look up how the Blackhorse and other units of US V Corps expected to fight in the Fulda Gap. There's a map here which doesn't have a scale on it, but gives you an idea of expected frontages.

[Zinegata]

It's the one with Bad Hersfeld to Bad Kissingen right? Might be able to fight a Google map equivalent and get the right scale.

There's also the 2nd Armored Cav map which seems to stretch from Bad Kissingen to somewhere around Regensberg.

[Sea Skimmer]

I wouldn't pay much attention to Force XXI stuff, both because the US Army rapidly abandoned it, that 120km is only a goal after all, and because it portrayed forces that are not much like the way 40K fights. Very focused on indirect tank killing fires and aircraft assets.

The first question is, do you want an area defense, in which your main goal to hold key terrain, or a mobile defense in which terrain is only important in so much as it aids your main goal of destroying enemy forces? Battles may involve both concepts, as reserve divisions may for example be charged with destroying enemy forces by counter attack rather then being committed to recover lost terrain or hold a line. But in general a mobile defense will let you cover a much larger area and may be the only valid form of defense should you lack the forces for a continuous line. As well, depth matters. Enormously, a unit can cover a much larger frontage safely if it has strong forces to the rear and it may well be the plan to let the enemy into the position.

Depth can also allow an attacker to defeat a defender in detail, but it provides a key built in means of exhausting the momentum of an enemy attack. This is critical in heavy combat since you may simply be physically unable to avoid destruction of your forward positions. In both world wars it wasn’t unheard of to simply abandon or greatly thin out the defenders of forward positions when hard intelligence warned of a major attack. You couldn’t do this all the time or minor attacks would just steal bits of the front. Meanwhile if you pile all your forces in the frontline, they become highly vulnerable to encirclement.

The 1980s Soviets figured on a division covering a zone 20-30km wide and 15-20km in depth. The two forward motor rifle regiments would cover 10-15km by 7-10km with battalions arrayed in depth. A third regiment deployed its battalions in a line behind both of these. A security screen would deploy 15-20km ahead of the forward regiments, proximity to the enemy allowing.

Just in terms of number of vehicles and men, your mechanized regiment is very infantry heavy, and this is totally unlike an 80s US ACR which had no real infantry what so ever (really stupid, big the reason nobody else on earth had anything like such units). It’s not that much like anything really, having as many IFVs as a US heavy division, but only one battalion of tanks and no real artillery. That latter bit is a huge limitation unless have some really bitching mortars. You cannot expect to defend a wider frontage then you can cover with concentrated indirect fire against a serious attack with a static defense. You also can’t expect to hold ground long if you have no counter battery capabilities. The closest comparison is basically its it just about equals two Soviet motor rifle regiments, but with the artillery, engineers and some of the tanks removed.

On that basis, and assuming you must defend key terrain I’d call it safely covers 30km considering the attack is primarily infantry in the open, but will need to defend in considerable depth because it lacks the artillery to kill shitloads of dispersed attacking missile armed enemy infantry and will take very heavy fire on its positions once revealed. Best solution to that is use the tracks and pull back as the enemy gets close, if he does, exploiting the fact that the enemy will get exhausted hiking to attack you and will then become vulnerable to counter attack. Ideally you would just be able to mount a mobile defense and constantly harass the foot mobile attacker.

As for communist WW2 attack fronts, 4km isn’t that hard a rule. It could be as little as 2.5km, it could be as much as 10km depending on the importance of the attack sector and configuration of the defenses. Generally you could have a breakthrough sector, with a division on a very narrow front, sometimes as little as 1.5 kilometers with three regiments stacked behind each other so as to sustain the momentum (depth matters with attack as well as defense), with the rest of its corps attacking slightly wider, maybe that 4km, and then much wider divisional frontages on the flanks to pin the defenders in place. Reserve divisions would come up behind this, prior to commitment of a fast armor heavy exploitation force. Improvements in artillery firepower though, can make very narrow attack fronts highly undesirable. This is also a good reason to spread out a defense in depth. Attacking evenly across broad areas is what was done in most of WW1, it works horrendously badly. Also attacking with no reserves or no ability to call up reserves was common in WW1, works orrendously badly. Anyway several of these breakthrough sectors grouped together, with the enemy troops in-between scheduled for encirclement and pinned by weak but persistent frontal attacks, is how you smash an entire defending army and tear open an entire front as happened to the Germans several times in 1943-45 on the eastern front.

Edit: Just remembered this, if you want to style off WW2, 40K is a bit all over, Soviet Defensive Tactics at Kursk report, has lots of graphics showing different ways in which units may deploy. But these are also all infantry heavy/foot mobile defenders, and ones whom were expected to defend positions to the death. They also of course had the massive history making engineering effort to support them.
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/download/csipubs/glantz2.pdf

[Zinegata]

Re: Frontage Scenarios

The basic scenario for the Mechanized regiment is much more along the lines of a mobile defense. The scenario is that of a fighting retreat: The mechanized regiment is covering the withdrawal of a much larger (but broken) allied force in the face of a largely foot-based enemy force. Eventually, the Mech troops hope to delay the enemy long enough so that the allied forces can withdraw to a chokepoint / supply point. Here, the defending forces will finally be able to concentrate their firepower, while also allowing the heavy weapons (i.e. towed artillery) to get resupplied.

So I'm thinking high frontage, no real reserves, but the defense only needs to be sustained for a limited amount of time. The scenario you outline (30km frontage) seems to be along the lines of what I wanted; so there'd be 1 mech regiment defending against as many as 12 enemy infantry division-equivalents (2.5km frontage) or as few as 3 enemy Divisions (10km frontage), with the lower number probably being more believable.

That being said, would the situation change dramatically if the attackers get one big unit (150+ tanks + 5K mech infantry) of fast-moving armor, which is earmarked to breakthrough to the chokepoint before the allied forces can regroup? I'm beginning to think that my original scenario may force the mech regiment to do way too much in the face of too many threats; so they'll either need more toys to play with or the attackers get fewer stuff.

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Re: BrennMech TO&E

Yeah, I wanted to give the mechanized regiment a more substantial tank and artillery complement, but 40K seems to frown upon regiments that have a mix of armor, infantry, and artillery assets nowadays.

Their mortars aren't really much to sing about (likely no more than three 82mm equivalents for every company of 100 infantry and 10 IFVs; plus a platoon or two of bigger ones at HQ level), but given the situation the retreating allied forces may be able to lend a few tubes. I'm also thinking of having some wet-navy support on the allied side to provide heavy guns for areas close enough to the coastline.

Would having substantial man-portable AT assets help against the massed tank threat though? The 40K Imperial Guard has the Lascannon, which is a highly accurate and powerful anti-tank weapon that can reliably destroy most tanks with one shot. It's common enough that it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to have each infantry squad equipped with one Lascannon team apiece (so figure 300 lascannons divided among 3,000 infantry). Similarly, the recce units are the two-legged Sentinel scout walkers armed with a similar weapon.

The main problem the Lascannons will face I think will be surviving the enemy artillery fire; which again points to the need for some arty support.

[Purple]

Would having substantial man-portable AT assets help against the massed tank threat though? The 40K Imperial Guard has the Lascannon, which is a highly accurate and powerful anti-tank weapon that can reliably destroy most tanks with one shot. It's common enough that it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to have each infantry squad equipped with one Lascannon team apiece (so figure 300 lascannons divided among 3,000 infantry). Similarly, the recce units are the two-legged Sentinel scout walkers armed with a similar weapon.

The main problem the Lascannons will face I think will be surviving the enemy artillery fire; which again points to the need for some arty support.

Considering that the IG lascannons are tripod mounted heavy weapons you would far more likely find them in a separate section in each platoon (along with the mortars) or maybe even companies if modern armies are anything to look at. For example, a Soviet motor rifle company has an anti tank guided missile equipped platoon.

As for surviving enemy fire, think ambush. That and be creative. I bet you that you could open the rear door on a chimera and poke the barrel of a lascannon out for hit and run carnage.

[Zinegata]

The BrennMech's Chimeras actually have a top rear hatch that was expressly designed for mounting the squad Lascannon .

With all the infantry being mechanized, I didn't think it was too much of a stretch for each squad to have a Lascannon; they'd just keep it packed up in the Chimera if they didn't need it.

[Rogue 9]

Unless by mortars you mean Colossus siege mortars, Guard mortars don't have the range or power necessary to provide artillery support over a wide front. Griffon mortar carriers are great for close support, but don't cut it when you need long-range artillery barrages. Basilisk support from the retreating force would help immensely, especially since the Basilisk self-propelled guns, unlike towed artillery, can set up quickly and tear down and run even faster in a fighting retreat.

As for lascannons as squad equipment or in a separate support platoon, Guard regiments do it either way or sometimes both. Having each squad haul around a lascannon is kosher (if very expensive in points on tabletop), especially if your regiment is a veteran formation with the extra training and gear that entails.

[Zinegata]

The company mortars are just the standard HW team with mortars, while the HQ-level assets are Griffins. For the artillery and engineering assets I'm thinking of adding two more oddball regiments into the story to beef up the BrennMech.

The basic setup of a BrennMech squad is very much that of a veteran squad + vehicle, so they get 1 Chimera, 1 Lascannon team, 3 Special weapon troopers (mainly GL), 4 regular troopers, and a Sarge. A handful of elite squads (Huskarls) are in the mix who also get hellguns and carapace armor; but their job is mainly to protect high-value officers or Sanctioned Psykers.

Ten squads make a company, and ten companies form a squadron. The Leman Russ tanks and Sentinel recce units are in their own seperate squadrons, but company or platoon-sized formations of tanks / Sentinels can be attached to the a mech infantry squadron as needed.

[Simon_Jester]

Remember, tabletop 40k orders of battle don't automatically translate into logical battlefield doctrine in real life.

Relevant questions:

1) Does the unit have organization at the platoon level? Ten squads is too many for one company commander to keep track of in combat; logically you would combine them to form three or four platoons of three or four squads each. A good 'span of command' rule is that each officer should command two to five independent units, no more. Even on the squad level, we tend to split 10 or 12-man squads up into fireteams or at least buddy/buddy pairs, to simplify the situation.

2) Guard units usually don't have organic artillery (i.e., artillery built into the chain of command) until you get above the regimental level. The regiment is the administrative 'atom' of the Guard. Armor plus mechanized infantry is a combination they permit (it's such an obviously good idea that it kind of has to). During normal campaigns the commanding generals tend to at least try to take their artillery regiments and break them up, seconding artillery to the regimental level- but it's an issue.

So yes, the Blackhorse Cavalry is probably a good model for roughly what a 40k Imperial Guard mechanized infantry regiment would look like. But the doctrine for how such a unit might be employed is not...

3) As an armored cavalry unit in the Guard, these guys will often be working with other, very different units- say, straight leg infantry and towed artillery. So they're not likely to be employed in the context of the Fulda Gap, where the entire NATO force was mechanized. Although that might be the right model against a highly mechanized enemy, like rogue Guard from a planet that produces similar forces.

[Zinegata]

RE: TO&E

Yeah, there's an intermediate command level between squad and company; which is the "Lance". Typically the company is divided into two "Lances" of five IFVs + Squads apiece (plus whatever additional assets the mission requires). One Lance is commanded by the Company Captain, the other is commanded by a senior "Knight" Lieutenant.

Thor, the protagonist of "Legacy of Steel", falls in the latter category; albeit he's also kinda the regimental errand boy.

There's actually supposed to be a fair deal of flexibility in the BrennMech command system, with the ability to mix and match forces from the Mech Infantry, Tank, Recce, and Sanctioned Pysker elements. I'm just not yet decided if it's done more on the "Lance" level, or at the Squadron level.

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Re: Regimental "Atom"

For my corner of the 40K verse, most of the regiments are supplied by Hive World Akkadia which fields three types of regiments: Infantry regiments (10-15K infantry; mostly conscripts), tank regiments (150 tanks), and artillery regiments (150 guns). They are typically shipped together as part of an "army" with about 3-5 infantry regiments per tank and artillery regiment. And yes, they're not meant to be well armed or particularly good troops - the allied army being covered by the BrennMech will be mainly Akkadian.

The BrennMech is an oddity for the sector because the world is very low on manpower. Its population at this point is basically under 10 million; and they have to maintain a large standing Planetary Defense Force (totalling about 100,000 men) because there is a fairly high Orkish and Psyker presence on the planet. The regiment - which has a total manpower of about 6,000 (figure 3,000 infantry, 1,500 crews, 1,500 support & engineering personnel) already represents 6% of the world's pool of available bodies for the military.

The opposition (seperatist / anti-Imperium) forces in this case will actually be forces that just transitioned from what is essentially US Civil War era warfare; and they've evolved to late WW1-style Divisions of 10,000 guys with organic artillery assets and a smattering of light armor. I'm still figuring out if adding one "real" tank unit (which is along the lines of a WW2 Panzer Division) can be feasible without making the BrennMech's job crazy suicide.

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Re: BrennMech Regimental Doctrine

The regiment was designed to be more of an independent fast-moving response force that could shore up the regular Akkadian infantry/tank/artillery armies. They weren't really developed to be part of a huge mobile tank / mech army like NATO.

[PeZook]

I don't think having the antagonists having an armored unit would necessarily make the regiment's job a suicide ; Especially if they JUST transitioned from musketry to WW1, which means their procedures aren't going to be modern or well practiced, and their command and control will look anemic and slow compared to an Imperial Guard force. But if they have modern equipment, and the retreating regiment is already banged up and weary fromt he fight, the news that the 1st Heretic Panzejaegers are coming in force will be a dramatic and tense moment in the story.

[Zinegata]

True, but having 150+ tanks rushing at you when you're already terribly overextended may not really be the kind of thing that you can recover from.

That's why I'm trying to be careful to give them a managable frontage level; so they'll still have a bit of a reserve to throw at the heretic Panzers. There will be in fact a bit of tension between the regimental CO and his 2nd-in-command over the release of the reserves.

[Connor MacLeod]

the obvious question occuring to me is: how do these troops get here, Why they are here (I may have missed that but I'm not clear why they're actually fighting here.) Also most important, what about spaceborne assets? What is there, and what isn't there (and why isn't it there) and so on and so forth.

This is important otherwise you end up with another Storm of Iron or Imperial armour conflict and you might as well start doing siege warfare in space like Honsou.

[Zinegata]

Basic scenario is this: The Imperium is intervening in an Agri-world in the midst of a Civil War (US Civil War tech). The Imperium basically wants the Agri-world to stp mucking around and get back to producing food for the starving citizens of Hive World Akkadia. They bring in a big Akkadian army as a show of force. It suddenly turns out that the secessionists have made a very rapid transition to a more modern way of fighting, and they rout the Akkadians plus the PDF. BrennMech enters the picture to try to salvage the situation by covering the allied retreat. Their rally point will be a chokepoint & supply depot - either a wide river (with most of the bridges blown) or a mountain pass - from which they can reorganize and (hopefully) launch a full counterattack to retake the ground lost.

The specific battle area is a strip of farmland / small villages / hills between a mountain range and the sea. The enemy can't really pursue through the mountains (and the PDF Alphine troops are fighting an orderly retreat there), while the PDF has some wet-navy warships to keep the enemy from doing any amphib silliness.

Space-based assets don't really come into play here. Orbital bombardment is NOT an option simply because the battle area is the valuable farmland the Imperium is trying to keep (and if you've read the first fanfic on the BrennMech, their Colonel has no real qualms about using orbital bombardment if the target is a big enemy army in a worthless wasteland). Nuking the farmland will pretty much negate the whole point of fighting over the world.

Dropping troops around the enemy also isn't an option because the Imperial army doesn't have any specialized drop troops or hard-terrain landers (at least not in sufficient numbers); not to mention everything has already been committed to the ground. The Imperium was expecting this to be a strictly show of force, requiring only the deployment of regular forces delivered to spaceports. They (and the PDF) never realized the enemy made such a rapid transition and thus require other means to defeat them.

[PeZook]

Actually, even if writer's fiat prevents orbital death, orbital recon and air power is a real game changer anyways, because you will always know where the enemy is and what he's doing.

However, instead of thinking up a thousand reasons to not use this capability...have them use it to its full extent. That way you don't convolute things, the Brennmech gets to plausibly fight enemies many times more numerous (orbital artillery spotting! satellite navigation!) AND you explain why the 1st Heretic Panzejaegers did not engage immediately: they had to move carefully and under camouflage. Or something.

Is there a reason the orbiting ships can't just lance the enemy HQ, though? Blowing up enemy command and control will save a lot of farmland from being ruined by more conventional fighting, which can ALSO make terrain unusueable for farming by such mundane things as lead contamination, or exotic ones like depleted uranium residue and fluid spills from destroyed armor.

[Zinegata]

The opposition paid considerable efforts to masking the fact they went from Civil War level tech to World War 1 tech (mainly via camouflage / warp trickery); and I'd assume it'd prevent orbital assets from effectively locating and destroying enemy command and control assets.

Tactically, I'd think that the most the orbital support can provide is up-to-the minute reports on large scale enemy movements (i.e. if a new Panzer Division is about to enter the fray), which is forwarded to the Regimental HQ (which does have Astropath assets). However, the guys at the frontline don't have the same ability to talk to the fleet directly, so they can't really call in orbital fire with any consistent level of accuracy.

So in a practical sense, the orbital assets can tell the BrennMech that there's that big heretic Panzer Division coming in, but not much else.

OTOH, some Imperial air assets may help to bomb the tank columns or their logistics tail, and the BrennMech does have enough voxes and FOs for this sort of thing. The problem is that the Imperial Navy didn't really lug any fighter squadrons to the fight because they thought they were fighting bumpkins armed like Johnny Reb, not a bunch of fanatics with actual artillery and armor assets.

I know Connor likes to gnash his teeth over the silliness of IA, but the Imperium in this case was really expecting an easy fight and a lot of deficiencies in the battle plan are due to this. For instance, much of the initial Akkadian assault (which results in their defeat and rout) is put to flight because the rebels launch massed gas attacks on the attacking Akkadian infantry, which hadn't been issued equipment for gas warfare. The result was very much like the early phases of Second Ypres when the Germans used chlorine for the first time.

[PeZook]

The opposition paid considerable efforts to masking the fact they went from Civil War level tech to World War 1 tech (mainly via camouflage / warp trickery); and I'd assume it'd prevent orbital assets from effectively locating and destroying enemy command and control assets.

It wouldn't prevent scouts from doing so and calling in the Wrath Of The Emperor, though. It's a pretty big thing, when you have artillery available on call even 300 kilometres from the rear.

And of course you don't have to rely on precise intelligence to do that. Sometimes a commander can just GUESS where the enemy is most likely to deploy: Russian divisions had rocket artillery standing by for their commander's use, to wipe out areas he suspected might contain important things.

So it might be "Hmm, road crossing, looks nice to deploy there, good communications in every way...tell the Fist Of The Emperor's Wrathto wipe it out."

Especially true if the heretics have just gone from musketry to WWI and don't have artillery doctrine hammered out

Tactically, I'd think that the most the orbital support can provide is up-to-the minute reports on large scale enemy movements (i.e. if a new Panzer Division is about to enter the fray), which is forwarded to the Regimental HQ (which does have Astropath assets). However, the guys at the frontline don't have the same ability to talk to the fleet directly, so they can't really call in orbital fire with any consistent level of accuracy.

Uh...maybe I'm wrong in the conext of 40K, but why would you need astropaths to talk to a ship in orbit? Radios should suffice, and you don't need a system for frontline units to call in orbital fire if you use it operationally or strategically (hah, let me see you run trucks through that mountain road after it's turned to slag!)

So in a practical sense, the orbital assets can tell the BrennMech that there's that big heretic Panzer Division coming in, but not much else.

That's a big thing, though, because you know exactly where they are and what approach they're taking. Again, you can always just up the numbers of the enemy and have the Brennmech just use orbital recon to their full advantage anyways.

Hell, the fact the heretic panzerjaegers can avoid getting wrecked like that and close to contact with most of their assets intact is WHY they are more dangerous than the rest of them.

Of course, it is your story. I'm just pointing out things that might seem a bit convoluted to the potential reader.

[Simon_Jester]

Sure.

Also, incidentally, rocket artillery (Manticores) are a good choice for the 'BrennMech's' heavy artillery if they've got any. Rocket artillery tends to be light, mobile, and gets very good bang-to-buck ratio when compared to normal artillery shells, so it's powerful in mechanized warfare. And a salvo from the equivalent of an MLRS is a great way to deliver those "fuck it, just wreck everything in the grid square" bombardments.

Of course, that sort of barrage would have to be used sparingly. But if it could be used at all it would be good at flattening specific identified targets, like enemy command posts and artillery parks. Both of which are going to be relatively important and conspicuous coming from an enemy that's still trying to remember the difference between cordite and black powder.

And this suggests another reason the FIRST PANZERJAGERS would be a threat. They close fast enough and unpredictably enough that they don't present good targets for the rocket barrages, any more than they do for orbital lances.

[PeZook]

Rocket artillery is ALL alpha strike, though. Reloading times are vastly longer than tube almost by definition, AND the rocket artillery set it more vulnerable while reloading, because it needs to hoist the rockets into their launch configuration ; tube artillery has far less delay between request for a fire mission coming in and delivering it ; It can also switch targets faster, and carries the ammunition internally (or in dedicated armored ammunition carriers).

Modern self-propelled gun can in fact stop and fire within less than a minute, and be on the move again almost immediately after the last shell leaves the tube.

[PeZook]

Here's an article on the issue, posted by Shep a while ago:

Soviet Radio-Electronic Combat

You can clearly see how inexperienced forces who didn't even have radios not that long ago can be hurt very badly by an enemy who knows what he's doing with his electronic warfare ; That's a force multiplier than can be useful to explain why a mechanized Imperial Guard regiment is doing so much better than their leg infantry (because they haveth vehicles to carry all that sophisticated equipment and remain mobile with it) when fighting the heretics.

[Rogue 9]

To chime in again, astropaths aren't required for surface-to-orbit communications; big vox sets work just fine. In Cadian Blood the orbiting fleet was even using its communications arrays to boost signals from surface sets, since the enemy was using heavy comms jamming.

[Zinegata]

Wel, the general point is that the fleet-capable comms tends to be limited to the regimental HQs, with the frontline guys having voxes capable of calling in local fire missions but not orbital ones. So while the frontline guys can indirectly "talk" with the fleet, there's enough of a lag that would make precision orbital strikes an unfeasible option. Besides which, the retreating army and the PDF Navy will have working artillery assets available to support the BrennMech, so they'll be keeping orbital bombardment as the last resort.

I like the rocket artillery idea though, as it does give the regiment a bit of punch in the artillery department in times of desperation. The BrennMech already makes backroom deals with the Mechanicum for some neat toys (i.e. parts to refurbish a Stygies VII pattern Leman Russ Vanquisher), so getting some hand-me-down Manticores instead of Griffons may not be too far of a stretch. Commissar Stark certainly isn't about to shoot the head Enginseer for this (he's too busy enjoying his new plasma pistol, and she is a much better fighter than he is anyway). The Manticores will probably be earmarked for the enemy's artillery park when it's located.

Finally, and this is a bit of a spoiler - while a lot of the opposition are just trying to figure out the difference between cordite and blackpowder, I'm going to point out that it's kinda unrealistic for them to have made the transition so fast without some outside help. So while the WW1-style infantry Divisions may stil bumble a bit, there will be a core group of off-worlders amongst them who are veteran fighters in modern combat; and a much larger proportion of them (with significant electronic / war warfare capabilities) are with the Panzers.

[jollyreaper]

Warhammer always struck me as a bit oddball. WWIII conventional is the biggest battle since WWII we ever imagined. The last total war according to the experts is Iran-Iraq. Anyway, it seems hard to imagine WWIII not going nuclear if we are talking about national existence at stake. Would the US back down if the Russians took western Europe? Would the Russians accept getting pushed out of the Warsaw Pact countries?

Once a battle goes nuclear, conventional forces would seem to be toast. And Warhammer uses WMD attacks fairly often, up to planet slaggings.

Yet at the same time, they want to keep land armies relevant. It's a difficult balancing act and none of the books I've read set in the universe really rationalize things fully.

If you have space superiority, that's ultimate air power. You should be able to fire on enemy formations in the open at will. Where air/space power won't help is when an enemy is dug in to land you need to take and can't afford to crater. Comparing to WWII pacific campaign, the Japanese lost mobility and power projection but had to be dug out of any territory we wanted, that had to be done in person. Things would have been different if we had bunker-buster nukes. Presumably warhammer ships could drop big rocks unless the enemy is dug into a city that needs taking relatively intact.

The other thing that never really seems covered is vertical envelopment, using spacelift for rapid mobility. Combat drops are sometimes mentioned but then it seems like the forces move across the continents like normal land armies on Earth.

I know warhammer defaults to rule of cool and we are talking about a setting where the largest battle mechs have castles on their heads and the spaceships look like flying cathedrals. Still, are there any books out there that cover a combined arms doctrine that makes sense for the setting?

[Zinegata]

Well, Gaunt's does a fairly good job of depicting combined-arms combat in some of the novels; but the thing to realize is that in most stories there really is some kind of excuse to not simply nuke the world. Otherwise, there won't be much of a story to tell .