Muv-Luv thread

[Ire]

For those who want to know what it is

http://forums.somethingawful.co*/showth ... id=3494004

This thread is for general discussion of both the VN's and Total Eclipse anime

[Dass.Kapital]

Sadly, for me, that link seems not to work.

I have seen references to said works, but not been able to see the works themselves.

Much cheers to you and yours.

[Ford Prefect]

Total Eclipse anime

So baaaaaaaad.

[Ire]

Total Eclipse anime

So baaaaaaaad.

Read the visual novel

Sadly, for me, that link seems not to work.

I have seen references to said works, but not been able to see the works themselves.

Much cheers to you and yours.

http://forums.somethingawful.co*/showthread.php?threadid=3494004&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

[Edited by NL to reduce SA linkthroughs, cut and paste, then fix the .co* to .com people. ~ NecronLord]

[Koolaidkirby]

As someone who read the visual novel, and how detailed the games describe the BETA hives + creatures, I'd actually be interested in seeing some VS threads against them, (vs. modern military, WH40K ground troops ect)

[Ire]

I'm sure modern Military would be screwed over by the sheer amount of BETA seeing how theirs like One Quadrillion of them in all

40K could be a good fight though

[Koolaidkirby]

I'm sure modern Military would be screwed over by the sheer amount of BETA seeing how theirs like One Quadrillion of them in all

40K could be a good fight though

modern military might stand a chance against a small single hive (class 1?) in a straight up fight. Although they would only have a week of air superiority + Nukes before they start to neutralize them.

[Lupercal]

40K could be a good fight though

Aren´t BETA a joke compared to Tyranids?

[Ire]

40K could be a good fight though

Aren´t BETA a joke compared to Tyranids?

Spoke out of ignorance guess both are one sided one way or another

[Blayne]

I post in that thread you linked D: We've come full circle!

I was debating making a thread but wasn't sure how much the forum liked/appreciated anime though Stark his gundams was a good sign.

I like Muv Luv, it has the Soviets in it as an actual y'know thing even if they have been more or less ghetto'ed to Alaska (as all of the refugee nations are now cooperating to develop the technology with the reluctant support of the Americans). Aside from First Squad I can't actually think of one which is odd consider as they technically border Japan.

The show started kinda bad in that you had a rushed 2 part introductory arc with characters we largely didn't care about and really need a third episode to pace it right, but with the introduction of Yuuya Bridges and the quirky Nepalese girl and the Russians its gotten a lot better.

The show I think definitely has its strong points but depends on how much you like nerding out on fictional military capabilities, I think some people compare it favourably with Top Gun so there you go, if you liked that you'll like this.

Like America has a fair amount of resentment in this setting as its the only nation that's still focusing on Anti-TSF capabilities (high maintance low uptick high performance weapon systems... Hey wait a minute this sounds familiar!) compared to the TSF's of all the front line nations that focus on keeping them in the field for as long as possible with as little maintanance as possible, because the Americans figure they can just nuke any hive that comes at them.

Canada :( nice to know I'm dead in this setting.

As for Nids' vs Beta I think the BETA are physically much stronger, larger and much more of a threat (I think the most numerous BETA is larger than those Hivelord thingies from the game, there's a chart at the SA thread). The Nids' however have iirc some sort of FTL capabilities with their Hiveworlds though? So the BETA will wreck any world they happen to land on while the Nids can threaten a large number of worlds (if not galaxies) but can be stopped with sufficient force.

It helps that the only world that matters in the Imperium could in theory hold off any attack made by any faction being the single most fortified planet in the whole galaxy so every other planet is expendable and thus Exterminatus if need be.

[Lupercal]

But Tyranids strip worlds clean of resources in weeks or so, and BETA think sentient life forms are silicon-based.

[Blayne]

That doesn't matter, Tyranids don't require 15 floored mecha to effectively kill their grunts.

[Lupercal]

You mean the triceratops and the retarded pincer things? Come on.

[Blayne]

I don't see how that argument could not be equally applied to Tyranids. "You mean those zerg ripoffs? Come on."

In the show, based on what is presented they're vastly larger than the average War40k unit, vastly stronger and faster and entirely negate air support with the laser class. They are however not a galactic threat on the same level of Tyranids as they lack FTL and have to slow boat it afaik.

I don't see how "devouring a world in a week" translates to combat power.

[gigabytelord]

I don't see how "devouring a world in a week" translates to combat power.

It's this thing called "overwhelming numbers", how anyone can look at that and say 'meh', I'm not exactly sure.

That's why the Nid's are so freighting, it's the their sheer, insane, nearly incalculable numbers.

[Dass.Kapital]

http://forums.somethingawful.co*/showthread.php?threadid=3494004&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Thank you very much for the link. Will peruse it when possible. *Bows*

[Edited to prevent hyperlink, see above. ~ NL]

[Blayne]

I don't see how "devouring a world in a week" translates to combat power.

It's this thing called "overwhelming numbers", how anyone can look at that and say 'meh', I'm not exactly sure.

That's why the Nid's are so freighting, it's the their sheer, insane, nearly incalculable numbers.

Actually numbers tends to be the Imperiums and the Orks primary advantage; the advantage of the Tyranids tends to be more because they can jam the communications of the system they're attacking preventing reinforcements. Otherwise if they're numerical advantage was so overwhelming how could the Space Marines successfully defeat a Tyranid Hive in Dawn of War II? If you mean all Tyranids everywhere sure, but a single Hive?

[Commander 598]

As far as I can tell BETA are only really a threat because ML Earth is largely made up of idiots who think swords are a good weapon of choice against enemy hordes that can rip your mech apart with their bare hands and who apparently never invented proxy-fuzed warheads or direct fire nukes.

Just consider that one of the most effective units in the entire setting is basically just a pair of GAU-8s on legs.

[Blayne]

The swords are there as a backup weapon for when the mechs inevitably run out of ammo. Also nuclear armament doesn't seem very effective, half of canada got destroyed just to take out the one hive that landed on North America.

[Lupercal]

I don't see how "devouring a world in a week" translates to combat power.

Are you kidding? We´re not talking combat power here, but sheer numbers.

Otherwise if they're numerical advantage was so overwhelming how could the Space Marines successfully defeat a Tyranid Hive in Dawn of War II?

Because it´s a game? It wouldn´t be a very fair game otherwise, right?

As far as I can tell BETA are only really a threat because ML Earth is largely made up of idiots who think swords are a good weapon of choice against enemy hordes that can rip your mech apart with their bare hands and who apparently never invented proxy-fuzed warheads or direct fire nukes.

The problem they face in Muv-Luv is that BETA field a pretty accurate unit which specializes in shooting down aircraft, missiles and bombs. Their ground units are mostly helpless without them.

[Xess]

The swords are there as a backup weapon for when the mechs inevitably run out of ammo. Also nuclear armament doesn't seem very effective, half of canada got destroyed just to take out the one hive that landed on North America.

All of my info comes from the SA thread and the WIKI. Half of Canada was rendered uninhabitable due to fallout from the nukes used to take out the NA hive. Probably because those hives have a big underground bit and the Americans scoured it from the face of the Earth with many, many ground bursts. That's very different from actually destroying half of Canada with nukes to take out one hive. The Americans also equiva-nuked (those G-Bomb things) a Japanese hive to destroy it and they're still on the front lines fighting and Japan is a hell of a lot smaller than Canada so obviously the area of actually "destroyed" land is much smaller.

[Blayne]

By direct fire he means tactical nuclear warheads from direct fire artillery. The VN's presumably answer the question as to whether ot not nuclear arms are effective, we know Americans are nuke happy. Although I don't really care because its somewhat of an unreasonable standard as I've yet to see any work of fiction fully use the armament that would be plausibly available in real life.

And dude, spoilers goddamn what's wrong with you?

Are you kidding? We´re not talking combat power here, but sheer numbers.

Because it´s a game? It wouldn´t be a very fair game otherwise, right?

War40k *is* a game, a tabletop game to be precise, so that's not a credible rebuttal. Are you really saying the Tyrannids are entirely undefeated in every battle/campaign/world?

[Lupercal]

War40k *is* a game, a tabletop game to be precise, so that's not a credible rebuttal.

Yes it is, because you don´t look for examples in the game´s mechanics, but in the fluff. A 1000pt Tyranid army doesn´t look very unstoppable, right?

Are you really saying the Tyrannids are entirely undefeated in every battle/campaign/world?

I never said that any of that, but the Imperium takes hideous losses to stop Tyranids. It is estimated that they would have to arm every man, woman and child in the galaxy, all quadrillions of them, to get humanity a fighting chance against the main Hivefleet. That´s how over the top 40k is. Unlike BETA, a Hivefleet would devour ML´s Earth in months - not thirty years and counting.

[Commander 598]

Considering that most of the world was rendered uninhabitable due to BETA, I find complaining about temporary radiation to be pretty silly.

By direct fire he means tactical nuclear warheads from direct fire artillery.

Yes, in the real world we've scaled down nukes to a technically man portable 120mm recoilless rifle...and that was with 1950s tech. Being able to direct fire ordnance with a relatively massive AOE is a pretty big bonus against masses of enemies that can largely be taken down by small arms and light autocannon fire and handily avoids lobbing ordnance in the relatively slow high arcs that the Laser Class likes to target (They don't appear all that effective against low firing arcs where they don't have time to engage the incoming ordnance.)

The swords are there as a backup weapon for when the mechs inevitably run out of ammo.

Considering that the Earth's population has been reduced to the point of conscripting children I'd think you'd maybe try to avoid last ditch stands inevitably ending in CHOMP. Realistically speaking weighing down your highly mobile "gunships" with twin telephone pole length hunks of metal is generally considered a negative, imagine how much more ammo you could carry!

Although I don't really care because its somewhat of an unreasonable standard as I've yet to see any work of fiction fully use the armament that would be plausibly available in real life.

An early post brought up a "vs modern military" scenario and a real modern military isn't going to ignore effective weapons and strategies for fighting all consuming alien hordes threatening to exterminate mankind already existing since the 40s because of Japan not liking it/plot. Unfortunately, the realizations of what the real world can actually do tend to reflect badly on fictional worlds.

[Blayne]

I never said that any of that, but the Imperium takes hideous losses to stop Tyranids. It is estimated that they would have to arm every man, woman and child in the galaxy, all quadrillions of them, to get humanity a fighting chance against the main Hivefleet. That´s how over the top 40k is. Unlike BETA, a Hivefleet would devour ML´s Earth in months - not thirty years and counting.

And in the fluff its also said that a single Space Marine can if taken enough time can convert; and that the Eldar plan centuries ahead, and that the Necrons are immortal with inertialless drives, the Ork WAAAAAGH is/are unstoppable and so on and so on and so on. The fluff is Imperial propoganda designed to further the totalitarian xenophobic regime of an old cripple when if everyone was to join the Tau there would be peace :rolleyes: . The Tyranids never will win, neither will the Imperium, or the Necrons, or the Orks, or the Tau, or the Eldar or their Emonihilistic cousins and etc. I trust the fluff as about as far as I can throw it (not very far).

I'll trust the games as being the closest thing to a reasonable compromise between the perfect imbalance mechanics of the tabletop and the ridiculously grimdark overthetop HAM of the fluff thank you very much unless there is some credible reason as to value the canonicity of the fluff above all else to the contrary.

So no, the Tyranids are not the numerous inumerable horde you think they are for the purposes of this discussion because point of order, even if it were true the entirety of the Tyranid Milky Way invasion force is simply not relevant. Because the BETA are only, as I've pointed out a few times now a *single world* threat and if your going to make this a "vs" discussion you need to pit two comparable forces. Pitting a nominal force against an arbitrarily large force is not particularly impressive point to begin discussion as it just isn't interesting. It's like saying what will win 100 nukes or just 1 nuke? The teleport vs gravity drive thread was interesting because they are two incomparable forces with no "right" answer; pitting every single Tyranid ever vs every BETA ever isn't interesting because its just moving the goalposts but skipping to its logical extreme.

Frankly getting to my original dispute, I do not believe the Tyranids invade a "single" world with the forces you think they do, their threat is being able to invade (while preventing communications thereof) from dozens of worlds in a sector at once forcing the Imperium to split their attention. It's at the Operational/Strategic level not the tactical where Tyranids are a threat.

That you picked only the background fluff and ignored the PC games is fairly selective, it is unreasonable to only consider the board games canon but the fluff has some very egregious excesses to it.

Yes, in the real world we've scaled down nukes to a technically man portable 120mm recoilless rifle...and that was with 1950s tech. Being able to direct fire ordnance with a relatively massive AOE is a pretty big bonus against masses of enemies that can largely be taken down by small arms and light autocannon fire and handily avoids lobbing ordnance in the relatively slow high arcs that the Laser Class likes to target (They don't appear all that effective against low firing arcs where they don't have time to engage the incoming ordnance.)

This is true, though I'm not sure if the BETA occupied areas are however devoid of life itself; so there might be reasons to want to be able to retake it. We know the Soviets and PRC forces used tactical nukes to hold back the Sinkiang BETA until the laser class appeared, so they have been used. On the other hand it might be that MANPAD nukes aren't effective is still possible explaination considering the armored portions of BETA are 15 on the Moh's scale of hardness.

Considering that the Earth's population has been reduced to the point of conscripting children I'd think you'd maybe try to avoid last ditch stands inevitably ending in CHOMP. Realistically speaking weighing down your highly mobile "gunships" with twin telephone pole length hunks of metal is generally considered a negative, imagine how much more ammo you could carry!

This I disagree with, we saw unsupported trainees with the swords and knives actually last a non trivial amount of time, so against the odd BETA that gets at you while reloading having a knife/sword is clearly useful as a niche close combat weapon. Additionally there's the in universe conflict of design philosophies, the Murican' TSF's don't have the close combat gear and focus on high performance because they're focused on Anti-TSF warfare. The considerations of front line combat has always mandated being able to stay in the field for as long as possible, even for when ammunition runs out.

Additionally we see constantly that all TSF-Beta combat results in close combat, every time becuase the operational doctrine is to fight and hold the BETA in place for as long as possible for the next line of defense to form up/people to be evacuated/long range artillery and so on. I cannot see justifying NOT having them when so far in the show they're the only effective close range weapon once you are and you will run out of ammo (I haven't seen them retreat very often either).

An early post brought up a "vs modern military" scenario and a real modern military isn't going to ignore effective weapons and strategies for fighting all consuming alien hordes threatening to exterminate mankind already existing since the 40s because of Japan not liking it/plot. Unfortunately, the realizations of what the real world can actually do tend to reflect badly on fictional worlds.

It's one thing I would think, to compare BETA/TSF combat to how a real world military, but I do find it unreasonable to judge the show on the outcome of that metric, as a very large amount of otherwise good science fiction we would find would not live up to that standard. "Willing suspension of disbelief" is an actual thing and not just selectively tossed aside. I mean honestly, its a "mecha show" accepting that they might not fight the way we would logically fight is the price of admission.

Also we had a conventional military with tactical direct fire nukes used, they lost! Back when the PLA and the Soviet Army were trying to contain the Sinkiang Hive and were doing well at it until the Laser class showed up.