Small Unit Formations - Q. for a Warhammer 40K Fanfic

[Zinegata]

Okay, was reading up on World War 2 battalion organizations and stumbled across this site:

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Tac ... ations.htm

And it got me thinking on how I should handle small unit formations in my 40K fanfics, particularly after reading this page.

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Tac ... _squad.htm

Which, in summary, states that the usual WW2 squad was divided into three elements:

1) Squad Leader (command element)
2) Gun Group (has the squad LMG, which provides fire support / suppressing fire)
3) Rifle Group (the assault / maneuver element, which closes in on the enemy)

Now squads in Warhammer 40K aren't generally broken down with this level of detail (although some books state they split a ten-man squad into two smaller five-man squads), but I'm a pedantic bastard and want something more substantive for my own stuff.

The Guard unit I feature in my stories is the Brennus Mechanized, which is a rare all-mech regiment. Its smallest component unit is essentially what the tabletop calls an Veteran Armored Fist Squad, consisting of the following:

1) Chimera IFV (roughtly analogous to a modern-day Bradley or BMP), typically armed with multi-laser (25mm cannon analogue) and heavy flamer. Crew of two (one gunner, one driver) except for command vehicles, which gets the Lance (platoon) commander on top of the two crewmen.
2) Ten-man infantry squad, consisting of the following:

- Squad Sergeant
- 3x Grenadiers, armed with Grenade Launchers and Las rifle (although one GL may be replaced with a short-ranged melta).
- 1x Heavy Weapon Team (2 crewmen), typically a Lascannon
- 4x regular troopers with las rifles

(And yes, it really follows the tabletop orgs closely, with all of the bad implications it entails. )

So I'm thinking to more closely mirror real-world deployments, there should be a "gun group" as well as a "Maneuver" group, divided as follows:

Gun Group: Sarge, 2 Grenadiers, Lascannon team, Chimera

Rifle / Maneuver Group : 1 Grenadier/Melta, 4 troopers

With the general idea being that the Chimera provides heavy suppressing fire, supported by the Grenadiers who are assigned to target specific strongpoints / MG nests. Meanwhile, the maneuver group performs the actual close assaults, led by the trooper with the melta.

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On reflection though, the current organization seems to be very light on automatic anti-personal firepower, so I was also thinking of alternate configurations. Possibly I could switch out the Lascannon for some squads and replace them with Heavy Bolters, giving a "Lance" (five Armored Fist Squads, roughly analogous to a platoon) three squads armed with heavy bolters, and two squads with lascannons for more balanced firepower.

What do folks think? Am I overthinking this, or should I go even further and look up the ladder with stuff like Company-level assets?

[PainRack]

Mechanised infantry don't work the same way as WW2 units.

Wh40k "might" be said to be designed along the lines of a WW1/2 unit, a mixture of large units under one commander and intergrated heavier firepower.

So, I guess the question is are you asking about style, current tactics or Wh40k organisation?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

WW2 mechanized infantry didn't have to bother with splitting the MG team and the rifle team into discrete units because one of the ideas behind mechanizing infantry (other than the obvious mobility) was that they could lug around a lot more machineguns. You didn't need a fire group and maneuver group because both teams already had MGs, often plus the additional dakka from the half-track's own MGs!

Though as you allude to, the fire-and-maneuver team breakdown doesn't really have the same impact when one of those teams is armed with a heavy crew-served anti-tank weapon. The fire group needs to be able to pour on a lot of suppressive fire on enemy infantry positions, so that means heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.

I also wouldn't pay too much credence to the limitations of Codex: Imperial Guard, since it's balanced for gameplay, and the Imperial Guard is a sufficiently vast and varied organization that there's plenty of room for variation.

[Connor MacLeod]

I also wouldn't pay too much credence to the limitations of Codex: Imperial Guard, since it's balanced for gameplay, and the Imperial Guard is a sufficiently vast and varied organization that there's plenty of room for variation.

Yeah, if you look at some of the earlier IG codexes, you get lots of formations and types that don't make it into the gameplay (like motorised units, mobile artillery, mobile infantry, Cybernetika...)

I'm also not sure reducing the sum total of military tactics, doctrine, etc. to 'WORLD WAR 1/2 TACTICS' is a good idea, since it really doesn't convey the full scope of the issue (seems more like an attempt to generalize, really.) and carries the implication that having anything less than MODERN TACTICS means you're complete and total shit (which is precisely how I've seen some people use that sort of approach.)

[NecronLord]

I have amended your thread title to make it clear you're asking a general 40K question.

[Purple]

Can the heavy weapon teams take mortars? I don't have a codex right now but common sense tells me that you will want a mortar or two in that formation. If at all possible I would advise you going with what you said (three squads armed with heavy bolters, and two squads with lascannons for more balanced firepower) but replacing one HB squad with a mortar section. Justify it how ever you want.

[Zinegata]

Mechanised infantry don't work the same way as WW2 units.

Wh40k "might" be said to be designed along the lines of a WW1/2 unit, a mixture of large units under one commander and intergrated heavier firepower.

So, I guess the question is are you asking about style, current tactics or Wh40k organisation?

Yeah, I probably should touch on the Platoon (Lance), Company, and Squadron Org.

The Brenn Mech is meant to be an independent fast-response force acting in support of a more "traditional" (i.e. Infantry + Arty + Infantry Tanks) Warhammer 40K army.

Basic unit of the BrennMech is the Armored Fist Squad (IFV + Squad), of which 5 make up a Platoon (4 regular, 1 command / heavy weapons squad). Two platoons make a company, which then reports to the squadron.

They also have some tank and sentinel units which can be attached to individual platoons / companies as needed.

Not much artillery, save for light mortars and a Manticore battery.

WW2 mechanized infantry didn't have to bother with splitting the MG team and the rifle team into discrete units because one of the ideas behind mechanizing infantry (other than the obvious mobility) was that they could lug around a lot more machineguns. You didn't need a fire group and maneuver group because both teams already had MGs, often plus the additional dakka from the half-track's own MGs!

Though as you allude to, the fire-and-maneuver team breakdown doesn't really have the same impact when one of those teams is armed with a heavy crew-served anti-tank weapon. The fire group needs to be able to pour on a lot of suppressive fire on enemy infantry positions, so that means heavy stubbers and heavy bolters.

I also wouldn't pay too much credence to the limitations of Codex: Imperial Guard, since it's balanced for gameplay, and the Imperial Guard is a sufficiently vast and varied organization that there's plenty of room for variation.

Well, as much as I'd like to give each squad two Heavy Bolters I'd like to have them complain once in a while about how the Munitorium weapons guidelines are kinda dumb, but point taken on how WW2 mech actually can carry a lot more firepower which obviates the need for discrete units

I'm also not sure reducing the sum total of military tactics, doctrine, etc. to 'WORLD WAR 1/2 TACTICS' is a good idea, since it really doesn't convey the full scope of the issue (seems more like an attempt to generalize, really.) and carries the implication that having anything less than MODERN TACTICS means you're complete and total shit (which is precisely how I've seen some people use that sort of approach.)

The intent isn't to exactly mirror Modern tactics; I'm just going for something that is a little bit more thought through so that people who read it and know about these things don't groan .

For instance I wouldn't exactly want to have every company being run like Van Droi in Gunheads - wherein he has a custom mix of tanks for his company due to individual flair as opposed to having some kind of sensible guidelines laid down from the regimental level.

Can the heavy weapon teams take mortars? I don't have a codex right now but common sense tells me that you will want a mortar or two in that formation. If at all possible I would advise you going with what you said (three squads armed with heavy bolters, and two squads with lascannons for more balanced firepower) but replacing one HB squad with a mortar section. Justify it how ever you want.

They can. In the Company Org I actually have one dedicated Mortar Squad for the whole company, but I'm beginning to think they should have one at the platoon level.

[Connor MacLeod]

The intent isn't to exactly mirror Modern tactics; I'm just going for something that is a little bit more thought through so that people who read it and know about these things don't groan .

For instance I wouldn't exactly want to have every company being run like Van Droi in Gunheads - wherein he has a custom mix of tanks for his company due to individual flair as opposed to having some kind of sensible guidelines laid down from the regimental level.

The Gunheads example isn't a particularily good one, given that logistics were clearly a concern. Most notable example being Wulfe given a Mars pattern Russ hull (the RIVETED kind, although these are the kinds of rivets that can stand up to the tank being hit by ork rounds that shove the tank three metres backwards across IIRC level ground, so clearly we're talking MOLECULAR BONDING STUDS.) and apparently lacks the useful systems (like Auspex) his last tank had in the short story Mercy Run (the one he had to abandon.)

I daresay any hope of order or consistency was at most a faint hope. Which is sadly par for the course for the Guard (where 'standardized' is only a vaguely followed guideline.)

The actual point I'm tryin gto make is taht you can't really generalize about the Guard's tactics, precisely because there is no real standardization. The most it gets standardized is attrition warfare of the 'you have alot of men, probably with lasguns and flak, and possibly some other materiel, and we're hopefully going to throw enough of it at the enemy to hope to succeed) - and this is more thinking at the highest levels Segmentum or Terra, because they simply cannot micromanage or coordinate things with any reliability at levels higher than the Sector (and sometimes, not even that.) Logistics is something of a similar case (we'll hopefully throw alot of materialw ith you, hope its at least mostly the right stuff, and in enough quantity to help you. And if it isn't well.. do the job anyhow.) coupled with a 'worst case scenario' approach to vehicles and equipment (EG 'well make it so your tank can run on coal, plants, wood, human bodies, and probably feces, but you're on your own for anything more sophisticated than that.')

Beyond that, the actual doctrines, tactics, etc. are variable, and it can go both ways. For every possible 'hyper advanced, well equipped supertroopers' you have out there, you're goign to have your share of Napoleonic infantry, feudal warriors, or feral barbarians who might have a lasgun (and it might even have autofire) if you are lucky. And may also have armour, if they are lucky.

A simplified answer is : The Guard probably is going to be variable, because in-game its designed to be open ended to allow players to create any sort of possible army they want, so it probably doesn't matter *too* much how you want to envision it, because there's probably some exception or case that allows it. I mean, look at the Phantine.

[Zinegata]

The actual point I'm tryin gto make is taht you can't really generalize about the Guard's tactics, precisely because there is no real standardization.

Have to go before I can do a more substantive reply, but my intent isn't to generalize about the whole Guard - I'm just trying to make something workable for "my" regiment.

[Zinegata]

And now for the substantive...

The Gunheads example isn't a particularily good one, given that logistics were clearly a concern. Most notable example being Wulfe given a Mars pattern Russ hull (the RIVETED kind, although these are the kinds of rivets that can stand up to the tank being hit by ork rounds that shove the tank three metres backwards across IIRC level ground, so clearly we're talking MOLECULAR BONDING STUDS.) and apparently lacks the useful systems (like Auspex) his last tank had in the short story Mercy Run (the one he had to abandon.)

I daresay any hope of order or consistency was at most a faint hope. Which is sadly par for the course for the Guard (where 'standardized' is only a vaguely followed guideline.)

Like I said, I'm not attempting to do this for the whole Guard. I'm looking specifically at "my" regiment (hence the fanfic note in the title). And what I'm trying to avoid is what Van Droi did - which is that he basically got to organize his company how he wanted it, as opposed to following some kind of specific regimental doctrine.

What I'm looking to create is a cohesive doctrine / organization for my own particular regiment; and hoping that it makes sense so that the people who do actually care about such things don't wince about the doctrine / org that I came up with.

For this instance, I'm using some web pages citing examples from WW2 as an inspiration, but I'm not necessarily trying to come up with One Grand Doctrine that would apply to every Guard regiment ever.

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Put it another way. Gaunt's Ghosts divides its squads into two fire teams. Van Droi's tankers get a mix of tanks based on the company commander's individual flair. The Phantine fly as squadrons. These are "their" doctrines.

I'm now looking at how to make a doctrine for "my" regiment, starting with the smallest unit which is the Armored Fist Squad. Emulating WW2 fire / maneuver elements may not be the best idea as Gaius pointed out, since Mech by definition should be able to lug more heavy weapons in the first place making a distinction unnecessary. Similarly Purple noted that perhaps mortars should be more common (which I'm considering adding at the Platoon level).

So if you've got any wild and funky ideas on how you think a Mech Guard unit should be organized, I'm all ears.

[PainRack]

The tactics for Mech inf rests on them debussing their vehicles and assaulting the enemy positions.
There really isn't a need for a "gun" squad or a heavy weapons squad at the platoon level, especially since Wh40k uses large squad/platoon sizes.

They would have been heavily armed and relied significantly on their IFV for more firepower. I mean, I don't know. The vibe I get off the IG codex is that HWT are more.... defensive and signify an entrench mentality, what with the sandbags image and all. And that's not how Mech works.....

[Zinegata]

The tactics for Mech inf rests on them debussing their vehicles and assaulting the enemy positions.
There really isn't a need for a "gun" squad or a heavy weapons squad at the platoon level, especially since Wh40k uses large squad/platoon sizes.

They would have been heavily armed and relied significantly on their IFV for more firepower. I mean, I don't know. The vibe I get off the IG codex is that HWT are more.... defensive and signify an entrench mentality, what with the sandbags image and all. And that's not how Mech works.....

I'm thinking the HWT is more of a mortar squad, which provides indirect fire support for the mainline troops.

So for every platoon, you have 4 "regular" combat IFVs with squad, and one IFV with a mortar squad (3 mortars)

[PainRack]

I'm thinking the HWT is more of a mortar squad, which provides indirect fire support for the mainline troops.

So for every platoon, you have 4 "regular" combat IFVs with squad, and one IFV with a mortar squad (3 mortars)

Mounted or dismounted? There are chimaeras outfitted with mortars, although I garner those are too heavy for the kind of support you want.

[Connor MacLeod]

Griffons are chimeras outfitted with heavy mortars (those can't carry many troops though, IIRC), although they probably can kludge together something with a medium mortar. IIRC there have been 'missile launcher' variant chimeras (although only firing a single Hunter Killer and with autoloading as far as I've covered direct info on. I am pretty sure there was a HK missile rack type though, somewhere....) and another variant stuck a Conqueror cannon on a chimera (light tank, I guess). There are also the Hellhound and variants (the multimelta one in particular), so you could probably stick lascannon and/or plasma cannon on chimeras too if you had them.

[Purple]

Honestly I would advise using light mortars instead. Seriously, on the platoon/company level a bunch of 60's or 81's are going to do much more good than a single big vehicle with a 120 or such. And I don't know about the codex but my suggestion would be that if at all possible you simply take one of your squads and transform them into a big mortar team with 2-3 pieces and have them drive in the same chimera they usually would.

For comparison, a platoon of 2-3 squads, a command element and a heavy weapon element seems to be pretty standard in modern armies. And you can bet that "heavy weapon" means mortar.

[Rogue 9]

Unfortunately, in tabletop no one uses infantry mortars because they suck. Getting hit with a boltgun hurts more.

[Zinegata]

I intend the mortar squad to be three dismountable mortars carried by one standard Chimera IFV (not something specialized like a Griffon). The back hatch of the Chimera can open and maybe let one or two mortars fire from within the vehicle, but that's generally for quick "shoot and scoot" ops. Their SOP will be to dismount from the Chimera and lay down fire with all three tubes.

The mortars are intended to be roughly analogous to 81mm modern mortars. And yes they're awful on tabletop but are way more useful IRL and against non-SM enemies.

Connor's variants got me thinking on a possibility though: Maybe the Mortar Squad's Chimera is also an Observation Post variant which can direct fire missions from other supporting artillery regiments? It seems kind of a waste to have a Chimera sit around in the back doing nothing .

Alternatively, the Mortar team's Chimera could also be the platoon engineer / recovery vehicle. Since the Chimera only carries 6 guys instead of 10, it could also be carrying additional support gear like extra ammo / spare parts for other Chimeras, a cute Enginseer chick plus her Servitors to fix your broken down tanks, and some demolition equipment. Which would fit quite well with how the mortar squad is supposed to hang back anyway.

[Alkaloid]

I'd look at having the Chimera being equipped with the heavy MG analogue for the squad (HBs, Multilasers and Autocannons) and your actual squads being lasguns, assault weapons and LMG analogues like heavy stubbers seem to be, backed up by a mortar or AT squad. Stubbers are a heavy weapon in game but in fluff seem to be small enough that they are operated by one man as opposed to a crew and can be fired on the move, that way your squad retains the multiple MG advantages in defence but doesnt ditch half its ability to fire as soon as the infantry need to move.

[Zinegata]

I'd look at having the Chimera being equipped with the heavy MG analogue for the squad (HBs, Multilasers and Autocannons) and your actual squads being lasguns, assault weapons and LMG analogues like heavy stubbers seem to be, backed up by a mortar or AT squad. Stubbers are a heavy weapon in game but in fluff seem to be small enough that they are operated by one man as opposed to a crew and can be fired on the move, that way your squad retains the multiple MG advantages in defence but doesnt ditch half its ability to fire as soon as the infantry need to move.

Well, the intent for a regular Chimera IFV + Squad was to have a multilaser for the Chimera, and GLs + Melta (assault weapons) for the squad in most circumstances, and a lascannon tucked away for anti-tank emergencies. It was refined to have some squads give up the lascannon for a heavy bolter to get more automatic anti-personnel firepower.

The Stubber is an interesting idea though if it's a one-man thing as opposed to the two-man heavy bolter. Does anyone know of a BAR-style or SAW-style lasgun as well that could also serve kinda like a Stubber?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

The Merovech-pattern assault lasgun might fit your bill. It's in one of the Rogue Trader supplements (Into the Storm, I think).

[Black Admiral]

Also, I believe there's a man-pack "support las" mentioned in Blood Pact.

[Sea Skimmer]

I intend the mortar squad to be three dismountable mortars carried by one standard Chimera IFV (not something specialized like a Griffon). The back hatch of the Chimera can open and maybe let one or two mortars fire from within the vehicle, but that's generally for quick "shoot and scoot" ops. Their SOP will be to dismount from the Chimera and lay down fire with all three tubes.

Doubtful that with three mortars, three crews and space to setup a mortar inside the vehicle you'd in fact have enough space leftover for enough ammunition to justify carrying three mortars in the first place. With a weapon that can easily fire 20 rounds a minute your really going to want ammo more then number of tubes.

Connor's variants got me thinking on a possibility though: Maybe the Mortar Squad's Chimera is also an Observation Post variant which can direct fire missions from other supporting artillery regiments? It seems kind of a waste to have a Chimera sit around in the back doing nothing .

Good positions for mortars are in defilade from enemy direct fire, acting as an observation post requires taking up a position you can see the enemy from. Not very compatible roles, all the more so considering the need to shoot and scoot.

Alternatively, the Mortar team's Chimera could also be the platoon engineer / recovery vehicle. Since the Chimera only carries 6 guys instead of 10, it could also be carrying additional support gear like extra ammo / spare parts for other Chimeras, a cute Enginseer chick plus her Servitors to fix your broken down tanks, and some demolition equipment. Which would fit quite well with how the mortar squad is supposed to hang back anyway.

Wish I read this first. Considering you need at least three men to form a realistic mortar team, you seem to have a very exaggerated view of what this vehicle can do. If it only holds six guys in back in the first place that means the back is tiny and your not getting more then one mortar, a few men and under a hundred rounds of ammo in it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Also, I believe there's a man-pack "support las" mentioned in Blood Pact.

Called a heavy lasgun I believe. Couple that with a backpack power source (mentioned in the various FFG books) and you have yourself a laser machine gun analogue.

Alternately you might just stick them with a hellgun. It's uncommon, but some of the pre-IA Chapter approved rules featuring Elysians had their 'special weapons' troopers being able to take hellguns as I recall, and a hellgun is a good machine gun analogue as well (esp since many also use a backpack power source.)

Another deployment option for heavy weapons crews (at least) might be a Centaur rather than a Chimera. They're smaller, but also faster and they're supposed to be able to mount at least some kinds of heavy weapons into the hull to be employed (and they also have heavy stubbers as standard.) They can only carry something like 5 crew + a driver and gunner, but when it comes to special/heavy weapons squads, this probably isn't even an issue. Some Centaurs (liek in Redemption Corps) are even fully enclosed unlike the Meat Droid of Krieg variant.

[Zinegata]

Wish I read this first. Considering you need at least three men to form a realistic mortar team, you seem to have a very exaggerated view of what this vehicle can do. If it only holds six guys in back in the first place that means the back is tiny and your not getting more then one mortar, a few men and under a hundred rounds of ammo in it.

Chimeras have a full capacity of 10-12 men, I was saying that the 40K mortar team typically has half this number of men (they use two-man mortar teams, with a "heavy weapon squad" being three teams) so the Chimera is only at half capacity by this point.

So what you're saying is that the extra space (for the 4-6 missing guys) should be allocated for ammo then? How do mortar teams in mech units (say ones carried by M113s) look IRL?

Connor->

Hellguns are nice, but aren't they more known for having powerful armor-piercing shots as opposed to high RoF like a SAW / BAR?

Also, given Skimmer's comments on the Chimera, maybe a Centaur is not a good idea as it'd have even less space for ammo. They might be good for the Enginseer though.

[Sea Skimmer]

M125 mortar carrier, M113 based, has four men and around 115 rounds of ammo as I recall. It holds 13 men including the driver as an infantry carrier. The dismount ability is basically, we can lift the mortar and put it on the ground behind the vehicle. 81mm mortar is a ~90lb object. A true dismount 81mm team would be at least a half dozen men, and even then this would only be bare bones. Normally a similar number of additional men would be in support in the squad or platoon headquarters carrying more ammo. Each complete round is about 10lb, some are heavier so that adds up real quick. In WW2 they had a handcart on top of this to move the mortar, now some militaries still do that but most just expect the unit to always have vehicles even in airborne units, if they will be required to move any distance.

The only reason I can see for more then one mortar per vehicle is if they are different caliber. That is done in real life some, giving a 60mm or 81mm mortar to a 120mm mortar team along with a small amount of ammunition so they have an emergency ability to setup on the ground and fire very close to themselves, something a 120mm mortar cannot do as minimal range can be around 250m. It also gives a capability to send a mortar off on special missions, sometimes dismounted direct fire is useful, but this by far works better with a 50-60mm mortar then a 81mm.