Revolution Pilot

[FaxModem1]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/397518

It premieres a week or so early to try and build up hype for the show.

My Thoughts, which I copy and paste onto here:
Spoiler

So, while an entertaining pilot, there are problems: If there's a kid with asthma, he should probably be one of the first dead, doctor or no doctor. If people stay out of the cities, seeing as how they're good places to die, why are there people in the cities? How would a military sergeant become the leader of a militia republic, was there mutiny involved and a general culling of officers? Everyone is way too well fed and well groomed for a world without plumbing and electricity, but I guess they didn't want to make The Road: The TV series.

Also, this is from JJ Abrams, who is more flash than substance and gives a solid first season, but falls under the weight of his unanswered questions of his products and relying on the 'mystery' and not the characters. If this show focuses on the characters, it should stay entertaining, if it decides to revolve around this secret society who took the electricity BS, we're going to have problems.

What are your thoughts?

[amigocabal]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/397518

It premieres a week or so early to try and build up hype for the show.

My Thoughts, which I copy and paste onto here:
Spoiler

So, while an entertaining pilot, there are problems: If there's a kid with asthma, he should probably be one of the first dead, doctor or no doctor. If people stay out of the cities, seeing as how they're good places to die, why are there people in the cities? How would a military sergeant become the leader of a militia republic, was there mutiny involved and a general culling of officers? Everyone is way too well fed and well groomed for a world without plumbing and electricity, but I guess they didn't want to make The Road: The TV series.

Also, this is from JJ Abrams, who is more flash than substance and gives a solid first season, but falls under the weight of his unanswered questions of his products and relying on the 'mystery' and not the characters. If this show focuses on the characters, it should stay entertaining, if it decides to revolve around this secret society who took the electricity BS, we're going to have problems.

What are your thoughts?

Well, the series, from what I read, takes place fifteen years after the blackout. There would be time to resettle at least the outer suburbs of cities, which would be sources for salvage.
Spoiler

My guess (and this could be contradicted by later episodes) is that the military sergeant happened to be a leadership figure that survived the massive die-off where he was. Apparently the setting (from what I have seen from the trailers) is southeastern Wisconsin and northeastern Illinois; the hordes from Chicago and Milwaukee would have killed most of each other trying to eat the surrounding land bare.

We might see more of the world in later episode. I suspect Iowa and Nebraska would have pulled through with intact state governments, indoor plumbing, and steam-powered airships and locomotives, if what happened in the Emberverse book series is any indication.

(I should note that unlike the Emberverse, things still explode in Revolution, so steam engines should still work.)

[Slacker]

Indeed. The midwest farming states should be fine-in the Emberverse, it's pretty much universally acknowledged that Iowa and her neighbors are the superpower of North America that nobody can afford to piss off. With steam powered farm machinery, it'll be that but more so.

[Ahriman238]

Saw it, thought it was ok.

Forget just being alive, why is Asthma Kid part of a hunting party? That leaves the village?

I liked the villain, he was effective in all of his scenes. Slightly confused that he shares a name with the general.

Blocking a sword with a crossbow? Really? And the crossbow seems to be in workable shape after a dozen or so whacks with a sword.

For that matter the unusual crossbow design seems really inefficient. Do any of the board members who actually do archery or hunting care to comment?

The whole series is still left with the question of how whatever happened stopped new sources. With access to materials and a knowledge of 5th Grade science, a person should be able to kludge together a (primitive and inefficient) handcrank power generator inside of an hour. Unless whatever happened is still active and actively suppressing electric technology or, I don't know, sends out nightly EMPs.

In the last flashback, why were the guards using dinky little candles as opposed to standard issue flares? Or even improvised torches?

[Scrib]

God Stirling must be pissed. I'll check this out, it looks great I just hope that I don't end up with another Terra Nova.

[Scrib]

Real time:

Yeah, shitty teenage angst? Fuck that. I'm getting flashbacks to Terra Nova... And just like the kids in Terra Nova they do dumb shit.
Spoiler

As someone has already said, Asthma boy should be dead. I already dislike him because he's going to be used to for silly drama.

Whaddaya know? I was right. I like how the power of a gun is emphasized though. One good handgun and the entire battle changes.

I don't like these people. I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's their unbelievable good grooming. Something about them turns me off. I especially don't like that muscled fuck. Oh wait, I know now, his silly chivalry and tattoo (seriously dude? That easy?). And I'm sure he'll show up again. Standard love interest bullshit.

And the uncle is a cynic? How much are you willing to bet that he has a last minute epiphany?

Actually I liked the way they handled that. More or less. They didn't take the standard, Han Solo, showing-up-to-save-the kids storyline and he was forced to move on because of necessity instead of a poorly thought out face-turn.

Yeah, I'll not be following. It has nothing to truly grab me to be honest. I'd love to see the Emberverse (or some version of the idea) done properly on screen, but I don't think that's ever gonna happen and I would like a good book version anyway. The show might be good but I don't care for the characters at all and I get the sense that it's just another show in the vein of Terra Nova, with teenage angst incoming.Maybe I'm being unfair and the future episodes will build on them because they didn't have enough time to do so with all the action in the pilot. Who knows, there might be an interesting examination of the world post-blackout in later episodes, but like TN the little hook at the end hasn't really intrigued me enough for me to want to find out.

[amigocabal]

If we see more of the series, I would expect the Midwestern farming states to have steampunk-style cities.

I have more observations about General Monroe and his republic.
Spoiler

Monroe had been stationed in Parris Island, the U.S. Marine Corps Recruit Depot, at the time of the Blackout. South Carolina would have been part of a huge death zone along North America's Atlantic coast stretching from Florida to Vermont. That he got all the way to within one hundred fifty miles of Chicago alive spells badass.

At the Monroe military camp, no observation balloons nor catapults with gliders are seen. This may suggest that Monroe is backwards compared to some other places in North America. This would make sense, as the republic's territory borders the Chicago-Milwaukee death zone, where much pre-existing infrastructure was wrecked in the chaos. General Monroe himself has access to ice, which suggests an icemaking machine powered by a Stirling-cycle engine.

With access to materials and a knowledge of 5th Grade science, a person should be able to kludge together a (primitive and inefficient) handcrank power generator inside of an hour. Unless whatever happened is still active and actively suppressing electric technology or, I don't know, sends out nightly EMPs.

Probably that. The Blackout knocked out batteries.

[Borgholio]

Probably that. The Blackout knocked out batteries.

So...build more? Modern batteries as we know them existed for nearly a couple centuries, and don't forget the "Baghdad battery" that is a few thousand years old. Unless the Blackout is an ongoing event, there's no reason why electricity can't come back within literally minutes. An EMP can fry electronics sure, but how much electronics do you need for a simple gasoline-powered generator? Any EMP large enough to fry something like that would probably be fatal to living creatures.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I have to say I am going to follow this JUST to find out what the hell is keeping power from comng back.

As mentioned before, anyone with basic education can put together a Dynamo with some copper wire. I mean what is keeping people from doing this? You can't tell me the knowledge was "Lost" in the great event, you would have to kill off billions and then destroy all books related to simple machines.

Is there some magic Anti-Electricity thing? And even if there is, what is stopping steam power from coming back? It isn't that hard to make boilers and steam to drive factories, trains, pumps, etc...

I mean, if we "lost" all electricity right now, the world would be rather fcked. Economy would collapse, a lot of countries would go under. But strong countries would start working on pre-industria tech. People start getting steam engines out of museums and building new ones. Digital information is toast so book production goes up. And what about chemical energy?
Cars and jets don't "NEED" electricty... Modern ones do, but you can build more simple ones. Large countries have stockpiles of Gas on hand, you can ration that until steam power (for the most part) replaces electric power at gas pumps and oil factories.

I mean, if you want to have a story with a post apocalyptic settling, I can think of a LOT of ways of doing it... But saying something caused all electricty to magically shut down? It doesn't make any sense.

[amigocabal]

Is there some magic Anti-Electricity thing? And even if there is, what is stopping steam power from coming back? It isn't that hard to make boilers and steam to drive factories, trains, pumps, etc...

To be fair, we only observe a small sliver of the world, within one hundred fifty miles of Chicago, Illinois. It could be a relatively backwards part of the world.

I would be surprised if Iowa, Nebraska, and Utah were in a similar state, instead of having steam-powered locomotives pulling trains filled with passengers and freight between villages, towns, and steampunk-style cities.

[Ahriman238]

Is there some magic Anti-Electricity thing? And even if there is, what is stopping steam power from coming back? It isn't that hard to make boilers and steam to drive factories, trains, pumps, etc...

To be fair, we only observe a small sliver of the world, within one hundred fifty miles of Chicago, Illinois. It could be a relatively backwards part of the world.

I would be surprised if Iowa, Nebraska, and Utah were in a similar state, instead of having steam-powered locomotives pulling trains filled with passengers and freight between villages, towns, and steampunk-style cities.

Cities require governing, people organized at least enough to be facing the same direction and following the same laws. More so with trains, which need semi-civilized points to travel between. So far the closest we've seen to that is a militia that seems little better than thugs extorting peons for their dubious 'protection.'

I have to say I am going to follow this JUST to find out what the hell is keeping power from comng back.

As mentioned before, anyone with basic education can put together a Dynamo with some copper wire. I mean what is keeping people from doing this? You can't tell me the knowledge was "Lost" in the great event, you would have to kill off billions and then destroy all books related to simple machines.

Is there some magic Anti-Electricity thing? And even if there is, what is stopping steam power from coming back? It isn't that hard to make boilers and steam to drive factories, trains, pumps, etc...

I mean, if we "lost" all electricity right now, the world would be rather fcked. Economy would collapse, a lot of countries would go under. But strong countries would start working on pre-industria tech. People start getting steam engines out of museums and building new ones. Digital information is toast so book production goes up. And what about chemical energy?
Cars and jets don't "NEED" electricty... Modern ones do, but you can build more simple ones. Large countries have stockpiles of Gas on hand, you can ration that until steam power (for the most part) replaces electric power at gas pumps and oil factories.

I mean, if you want to have a story with a post apocalyptic settling, I can think of a LOT of ways of doing it... But saying something caused all electricty to magically shut down? It doesn't make any sense.

Tubby the teacher (I truly apologize to anyone with weight issues, I don't think we were ever given a name) used to work for Google, earning enough to own a private jet. I'd say he probably understands enough to whip one up if he could.

He also said that 'physics, the fundamental constant of the universe, went nuts overnight and no one understands why.'

Though some people clearly do understand. Matheson knew what was going down before the blackout started, his wife to. While I'm glad he did the short term things (hoard water, eat up all the ice cream) I'm wondering why he wasn't better prepared if he knew this was coming well in advance.

For that matter, both the fact he knew what was coming and the device at the end tell me that the blackout is probably something caused deliberately by people. Who? Why? To what possible benefit?

I bet you anything the reason mon general is after the Matheson's is because he was in the car with Miles and heard the warning. That really makes his actions (notwithstanding the hostage-taking, which was the call of his field man and not really in his control) seem really reasonable and justified, no matter how suspicious Miles is of his motives. Matheson never came clean with anyone in twenty years?

[Scrib]

That's one thing that was weird, them taking so long to find the Mathesons, but I guess they couldn't just google them.

The person that knows him best seems to think that he's doing it for weapons. He is a cynic but yeah, he's the only person who knows him at all.

But if it is a situation like the Emberverse then I don't know how it would be fixable. If it's just a blackout of all technology then other stuff should work (the final, LOST-like scene seems to imply this). For Monroe's sake it better be the latter, because otherwise I doubt he can just make machines work on a local scale, he'd give everyone back their tanks, jets etc. It seems to be straddling the two scenarios in a weird way

[Chirios]

I haven't watched this show, probably won't because the idea sounded dumb, but did they ever actually define what stopped working or do they just use an arbitrary definition of "technology" beyond which everything stops?

[Guardsman Bass]

The creators defined it as "as anything that creates a spark or carries a current", and that doesn't appear to include the electrical synapses in the nervous systems of animals (such as ourselves).

It limits technology considerably, but also leaves a lot of stuff open. You wouldn't even need to go Steam-Punk, since you can make and use diesel engines that don't require electricity, and that can run on tons of stuff (including vegetable oil). In fact, I wonder if you could take advantage of the "electrical synapse" loophole to try and find out some bizarre types of circuits that could still run.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Well there you are then. "creates a spark or carries a current" will indeed Magic away all forms of modern tech.
Of course now that we KNOW the limitation it is going to be increasingly silly if we don't see some some of various people getting machines back. There are a LOT of engines that do not need electricity.

If they had only said it was set in a random Post apocalyptic setting it would be ok.
But now that we KNOW what is causing it, it is goign to get silly since it is just some Magic going.

[amigocabal]

The creators defined it as "as anything that creates a spark or carries a current", and that doesn't appear to include the electrical synapses in the nervous systems of animals (such as ourselves).

It limits technology considerably, but also leaves a lot of stuff open. You wouldn't even need to go Steam-Punk, since you can make and use diesel engines that don't require electricity, and that can run on tons of stuff (including vegetable oil). In fact, I wonder if you could take advantage of the "electrical synapse" loophole to try and find out some bizarre types of circuits that could still run.

Possibly, although for a good long while, such bizarre circuits would be rich peoples' toys.

[Borgholio]

Creates a spark or carries a current? How does this affect only man-made technology? What about natural sparks and currents such as lightning bolts, northern lights, electric eels...lots of natural sources of electricity. Is static electricity affected? And yeah mental synapses...good point too.

[amigocabal]

If they had only said it was set in a random Post apocalyptic setting it would be ok.

Like the setting of Jeremiah?

[Havok]

I'm disappointed all you nerds forgot about the fact that we are basically electric machines ourselves.

Why do guns not work? Diesel engines? Natural gas? Plumbing? I noticed people stopped playing baseball as they show some stadium all over grown.

Yeah, you lose TV and computers and street lights, but you don't lose as much as you think with no electricity. I mean, the world did function pretty well without power for a while there, although I am no history major.

If anything, this would put pretty much every out of work person on steam and diesel driven assembly lines to convert and adapt to the new situation.

I dunno, it just seems pretty poorly thought out.

[Crossroads Inc.]

The big problem is all world wide communication goes down.
You can't get a message more then a few miles now quickly unless driving a car.
Depending on what airplanes are able to function you could use jets as a High speed courier to other states or countries.
Would that be enough to plunge the world back into medieval times? Some how I doubt it...

[Ultonius]

Even if steam or IC engines didn't work, you might be able to run machinery with animal or human muscle power. This video shows a fairly modern baler being powered by a horse-drawn forecart.



It's purely muscle-powered, with the horses pulling the forecart forward, causing its wheels to turn, which in turn rotates a power take-off shaft, mechanically powering the baler in the same way as a tractor would.

[Guardsman Bass]

Communications is definitely one of the biggest problems. Without the ability to generate current, you can't even run a telegraph, never mind a radio.

I think that would lead to greater decentralization in markets and government, but having machines that can go faster than coal-fired steam locomotives (the fastest equipment before the telegraph in real life) makes it hard to predict. As Crossroads said, you could have courier planes that do nothing but fly routes carrying high-priority mail.

There might even be faster methods of sending messages, such as chains of light-signaling stations that can relay messages through each other across hundreds of miles if you absolutely had to get a message somewhere in a few minutes.

[Grumman]

There might even be faster methods of sending messages, such as chains of light-signaling stations that can relay messages through each other across hundreds of miles if you absolutely had to get a message somewhere in a few minutes.

I'm imagining a fibreoptic cable crossing the ocean floor... and at the other end there's a guy holding it up to his eye with one hand, pencil in the other.

[amigocabal]

I'm disappointed all you nerds forgot about the fact that we are basically electric machines ourselves.

Why do guns not work? Diesel engines? Natural gas? Plumbing? I noticed people stopped playing baseball as they show some stadium all over grown.

That was Wrigley Field in Chicago. Chicago and the surrounding area would have become a death zone as food distribution was disrupted. In the series, Chicago was only being recently resettled fifteen years after the event.

It would have been much worse on the plain between the Appalachians and the Atlantic, where starving hordes would overlap and eat the land bare before eating each other.

[Crossroads Inc.]

There might even be faster methods of sending messages, such as chains of light-signaling stations that can relay messages through each other across hundreds of miles if you absolutely had to get a message somewhere in a few minutes.

I'm imagining a fibreoptic cable crossing the ocean floor... and at the other end there's a guy holding it up to his eye with one hand, pencil in the other.

Well shoot Across land you could rig up single towers. The "Clacks" of the Discworld franchise use 16bit single towers. There was a thread a while back debating how much "Bandwidth" you could send using that "dave" did a fantastic job:

But to get back on track, the theoretical throughput would be 16bits * frames per unit time.
So, for example, if your human operator can read 2 frames per second, you get 16 bits * 2 = 32 bits per second. If you have a computer operator that can read 2 million frames per second, you get 16 bits * 2 000 000 = 32 million bits per second, or ~3.81 MBps.

This is with no error correction, no overhead, or anything else, just raw transfer speed.

Yes, it is possible to transfer more information using special encodings, such as the one you mentioned
(0100 0000 0000 000 representing "Hello",for example), but that limits you to the 'language" that you use.

With sixteen lights, and assuming that they only have two states, you can have a maximum of 216 possible permutations of the lights, which works out to be 65 536 combinations. Given that there are upwards of 100 000 words in the English language, you may lose part of your message.

Notice that you have increased your transmission speed (whole English words per frame versus sixteen ones and zeros per frame) at the expense of content. But now I'm just rambling.

Now, if the lights had more states than just on/off, you have more possible permutations of the lights to play with and thus can send more information in a single "frame".

It would take a LOT of organization, and without power might be the work of a decade to connect up the major cities of the nation, but it COULD be done and using just binary 16bit messaging you get over 65000 combinations. Using different colors or different symbols you could get even more. So communication nationwide is doable.

I think the REAL Question is not how could you rebuild society, but would such an event really lead to the initial collapse of society?