Are Bio-Weapons Effective? (Resident Evil/Biohazard)

[Sidewinder]

I was watching Resident Evil: Damnation, a film based on the video game series (known as Biohazard in Japan). It portrays the monsters created by T and G-viruses, as well as Las Plagas parasite, being used as Bio-Organic Weapons (BOWs) by rebel and government forces in a civil war. Basically, the monsters are used as shock troops; the viruses and parasites are used as terror weapons, the resulting epidemic forcing the government to abandon the capital city.

I'm assuming a terrorist organization wouldn't give a damn if the monsters turn upon its own members (as long as they take some government forces to hell with them), and would use biological and bio-organic weapons without hesitation. The question I have is, assuming there's a way to control the monsters (via Las Plagas parasite, as portrayed in the movie) as well as immunize your soldiers against the virus or parasite (as portrayed in Resident Evil: Degeneration), are the biological and bio-organic weapons from Resident Evil effective or efficient? Do they have a role in a conventional military force? Or is a military leader better served by modern tanks, fighter-bombers, mechanized and airborne infantry (including Special Forces)?

[Stark]

Depends on the type, obviously. Big two-story ogre BOWs are driven off by a BRDM with a 50. On the other hand, the C-virus (you obviously haven't played RE6) turns people into monsters that are intelligent, use weapons, can be dropped as paratroopers, pilot gunships, etc. They're described as having high strength, are obviously more durable than non-hero humans, and can mutate on the spot into increasingly silly forms like G-virus guys. The more powerful variants can increase in mass by hundreds of times, break apart like a transformer, absorb other biomass to grow, shoot electricy, constantly reform after massive disruption and damage, etc.

However, since these weapons have no ticket price and are generally used by secret organisations for their own ends (ie, giving the C-virus to revolutionaries to test their performance), I'm not sure actually choosing to use them is ever a good idea, even if you can pretty much destroy a city with a single weapon.

[Losonti Tokash]

RE6 shows J'avo in open conflict against a military force (the BSAA) with both sides using various types of armor, gunships, and transport helicopters. Presumably the Edonian Liberation Army also has some kind of transport planes since we see J'avo paratroopers drop into the middle of the combat and immediately engage BSAA troops. They are also shown operating both a nuclear submarine and an aircraft carrier, and a J'avo has at least enough understanding of fighter planes to use the weapons on one that's stationary.

Like Stark says, they also mutate to adapt to injuries sustained, such as growing a shield arm when the original is disabled or shot off by an enemy or replacing a decapitated head with a gigantic maw.

[Sea Skimmer]

If you want to destroy a city population a couple neutron bombs or bombardment with incendiary weapons works fine, and without the need to cleanup enormous numbers of monsters afterwards. All those monsters are likely going to cause all kinds of fires that burn down the city anyway. Poison gas is also an option for murdering people, and also raises the question of how resistant the monsters are to gas. They'd be kind of shitty if the enemy can put a simple gas mask on everyone and flood the streets with lots of cheap phosgene. Some corrosive chemical weapons exist which should fuck up anything biological no matter if it doesn't breath or has a completely different nervous system.

In any even value seems strictly limited to urban areas, in the open the directionless monsters swarms would be torn apart by a massed modern military, and they cannot for provide your own cities with much of an effective defenses, certainly not air defense. So its no replacement at all for a conventional military. It might be a way to skimp on your ammunition budget. But in general military leadership does not like weapons which are erratic, and all these weapons are highly erratic and could be totally ineffective given say, the enemy has a vaccine to the super virus.

[Simon_Jester]

This is going to run into the same problems as any bioweapon- proliferation. Can you really control the thing if it gets into the environment? I'd worry about that- you can immunize your soldiers, but how effectively can you stop infected creatures from spreading and mutating and becoming a long-term threat?

In real life the problem is simply one of the spread of plagues- any disease you spread in one area will tend to infect others pretty fast and cause a global pandemic. Here, you might have more control over creatures exposed to the virus, but you don't have control over who or what gets exposed to it in the field.

[Stark]

Simon I don't think you know how bioweapons in Resident Evil work. Only the most basic kind (like zombies) pass the infection. The c-virus in particular was marketed as a 'stimulant' to get people to use it, and it turned soldiers into motivated, super-strong, very durable yet intelligent and controllable supersoldiers.

The only question (which is pretty unanswerable) is how much it costs to make on a per-soldier basis, without which its basically impossible to determine how 'effective' it is. If the shots that turned Derek into a mass-multiplying literally invincible ever-changing blob monster is cheap or even moderately expensive it'll have a role.

And sorry, turning a city of millions into zombies will always be a better terrorist attach than blowing a city up.

[Sidewinder]

And sorry, turning a city of millions into zombies will always be a better terrorist attach than blowing a city up.

Depends on who's using the weapon, and where. To use al-Qaeda as an example, turning New York into a city of zombies, is a success. Turning Islamabad into a city of zombies, on the other hand, is an EPIC FAIL- the terrorists intend to occupy the city after overthrowing the Pakistani government, and having to immunize every survivor while the city is cleared of monsters, would consume too many resources to be worth the hassle.

[Stark]

Sorry, if you think blowing up a city you want to occupy with nuclear weapons is 'terrorism' and not 'warfare', you've got problems. And if you turn everyone into fucking zombies, you ALREADY overthrew the government, cause they're zombies now.

[Losonti Tokash]

And sorry, turning a city of millions into zombies will always be a better terrorist attach than blowing a city up.

Depends on who's using the weapon, and where. To use al-Qaeda as an example, turning New York into a city of zombies, is a success. Turning Islamabad into a city of zombies, on the other hand, is an EPIC FAIL- the terrorists intend to occupy the city after overthrowing the Pakistani government, and having to immunize every survivor while the city is cleared of monsters, would consume too many resources to be worth the hassle.

Fortunately, the C-Virus has multiple uses beyond just "make zombies." In the game we see 2 different ways that it's used to infect a civilian population, but when injected rather than inhaled, it creates J'avo, who are basically just super soldiers. They're capable of speech, using all manner of weapons and vehicles, and adapting to physical trauma. In at least one instance it's used to create the Ustanak, a successor to the Nemesis T-Type, which is also intelligent, adaptable to new situations, and capable of withstanding absolutely absurd amounts of damage from small arms, explosions, large structures falling on it, mining equipment, and molten lava. It also remains obedient and non-threatening to its masters, without turning into a feral engine of destruction like its predecessors.

[Stark]

Without knowing how much the payload of the missile used to attack Tatchi cost, its pretty hard to gauge its effectiveness. If the Palestinians had this stuff, it'd be pretty funny stuff. Skip to 1:14 because I'm too old to get the embed code to work with a timestamp.



This is probably the weakest weapon available; the other strains must be more expensive since they're only present in individual injections.

[Sea Skimmer]

Fortunately, the C-Virus has multiple uses beyond just "make zombies." In the game we see 2 different ways that it's used to infect a civilian population, but when injected rather than inhaled, it creates J'avo, who are basically just super soldiers. They're capable of speech, using all manner of weapons and vehicles, and adapting to physical trauma. In at least one instance it's used to create the Ustanak, a successor to the Nemesis T-Type, which is also intelligent, adaptable to new situations, and capable of withstanding absolutely absurd amounts of damage from small arms, explosions, large structures falling on it, mining equipment, and molten lava. It also remains obedient and non-threatening to its masters, without turning into a feral engine of destruction like its predecessors.

That would be useful, provided you can also get them to maintain all that equipment, otherwise waging mechanized war would quickly turn into the Syrian attack on the Golan heights in 1973, hundreds of abandon but intact tanks with minor engine faults. But still, since the weapons supplies and ammo cost more then manpower, and even intelligent zombie biowarriors would still have to be trained how to use and maintain gear. If you had them as part of the military in peacetime and all that training could be conducted they'd be great, if you made them during a war they'll be limited to use as infantry.

[Stark]

The solution used by people not retarded is to use it on soldiers. Regardless, the virus can be used to give someone the specific appearance and memories of another person. If your response to 'makes super soldiers' is OMG BETTER BE TRAINED, then the system works and is useful (dependent on cost and the likelihood of bizarre side effects). Luckily it's not marketed or used as a long term replacement for mechanized warfare, but as a terror weapon against large populations and as a force multiplier.

Or y'know most of the time it's accidents or mad scientist plots to destroy the world with COMPLETE GLOBAL SATURATION.

[Sea Skimmer]

Somehow I assumed changing ones entire body chemistry and behavior would not leave you acting the same damn way you did before. I dunno why you are talking about 'marketing' in any case, when the thread was explicitly about using them to replace conventional forces and not what does the manufacturer market this item for. I don't know how you could make any deadly weapon at all that wasn't useful for terror, and I also don't see why anyone would give a fuck about deliberate terror weapons unless they are loosing when terror won't save you anyway. If you going to win who cares, the enemy will fucking do what you say or die anyway. That generates all the terror you need. You want a conventional military replacement, it had better do everything that has it do.

[Stark]

Your assumptions just show you don't know anything about RE bioweapons. It's ok to say 'I don't know'.

And frankly the idea that guys immune to being blown to smithereens have no military value because you assumed they'd lose their memories is just amazing. Frankly, I don't think anyone but Sidewinder thinks these weapons should replace 'conventional military forces', which is probably why nobody is talking about it but you. They're used to augment such forces or in accidents and terror attacks to create chaos. Nobody even knows if the guys who used the c-virus in Edonia were winning or losing their civil war.

Does xyz product do abc thing nobody expects it to? No? OMG TEH SUXXXX!

[Sea Skimmer]

I know what's in the games, which involves killing them without particularly powerful weapons and generally acting retarded.

And frankly the idea that guys immune to being blown to smithereens have no military value because you assumed they'd lose their memories is just amazing.

Actually I said limited to use as infantry, but thanks for showing how amazingly retarded you are for for the thirty thousandth time.

Frankly, I don't think anyone but Sidewinder thinks these weapons should replace 'conventional military forces', which is probably why nobody is talking about it but you.

That might be relevant, if this thread was not a handful of posts long and with no less then 50% of replies prior to my first post talking about conventional forces. You think the thread is pointless then by all means go away.

[Stark]

Dude, people have mentioned the distinction between the rank and file and the basically immortal enemy types. Have you played RE6? Are you saying 'limited to use as infantry' when your been told they operate warships and fly helicopters?

Just because you're posting from ignorance doesn't make the thread useless. It jus makes you ignorant. If Sidewinder really wants a discussion about why monsters with no artillery, no tactical air, no AA, and very little anti armour aren't a replacement for a real military we can sure use a laugh explaining it to him. But metamorphosing, mass from nowhere, memory transferring, corpse absorbing, resistant to auto cannon, aircraft carrier absorbing miracle injections probably shouldn't be dismissed as 'limited to use as infantry' based on your recollection from a different game.

[Sea Skimmer]

I only played the demo, it sure looked like more of the same shooting the heads off random fodder, waiting for a PC version to possibly buy it. None of this addresses the issue of how you make these guys into a proper military which is what counts, sorry that you have no interest what so ever into what it actually takes to field a fighting force that can sustain a battle against and with modern weapons. Using weapons is the simpler part. Also, good enough monsters would be, good enough to be a military, like say if you had an army of monsters even 1/100th as tough as Godzilla.

[Stark]

I only played the demo, it sure looked like more of the same shooting the heads off random fodder, waiting for a PC version to possibly buy it.

That doesn't actually explain why you ignore things people tell you. Maybe it's just cause you don't like it.

None of this addresses the issue of how you make these guys into a proper military which is what counts

They administer it to irregulars during an insurrection and organised criminals during a terror attack, and they don't lose any cohesion (arguably in Edonia they have far better morale and organisation in combat than you'd expect from random eastern europeans). Just because you don't know the difference between a t-virus zombie and a c-virus j'avo doesn't mean there isn't one. To reiterate yet again, they fly helicopters. They're not shambling corpses. But (obviously) without helicopters to fly they're not a replacement for a conventional military force, which is why Sidewinder's question doesn't get a lot of people in this thread saying HELL YES THEY DO.

sorry that you have no interest what so ever into what it actually takes to field a fighting force that can sustain a battle against and with modern weapons.

You mean like how I just said asking if they would replace an army is obviously stupid? Maybe you SKIMMED that part, eh? Eh?

Using weapons is the simpler part. Also, good enough monsters would be, good enough to be a military, like say if you had an army of monsters even 1/100th as tough as Godzilla.

Maybe you like to skim things you don't agree with, but RE6 has a woman who literally eats an aircraft carrier like its Geno Cyber, a man who increases in mass by several orders of magnitude, shoots bones and throws cars, a human-sized guy who survives crushing, being drilled by a drilldozer, dropped in lava, electrocuted etc, ogres basically immune to 25mm cannons, etc etc. They're probably far more expensive/difficult to create, but they're SOD-challengingly durable. The super soldier guys are (apparently) just as flexible as regular soldiers only stronger, more durable and gain mutations instead of dying, but at the high end it's Mike Myers unstoppable stuff.

More interesting than the 'education' side of the thread is the cost benefit analysis. We don't know the ticket price for a tyrant (for instance) but we know that Umbrella, an otherwise profitable BIG PHARMA, invested huge amounts of money in developing these weapons. They built crazy mad scientist labs, they engaged in bizarre conspiracies, they maintained private armies, etc. They obviously expected to recoup these costs, and others did too - Tricell followed in Umbrella's footsteps. However, even a tyrant armed with missiles etc isn't really very useful beyond its absurd durability. Its slow, it becomes less controllable as it takes damage, and they don't seem very intelligent. Who would buy them? In what numbers? How could sales possibly amount to the billions upon billions invested in the project? I believe in one of the games you see a tyrant 'factory', and the game fluff describes guys like lickers and hunters as IMPORTANT PRODUCTS, but what the fuck are they good for? Extraordinarily expensive guard dogs? I don't think many of the creatures seen pre RE6 have much military value.

In RE6 its even worse, because the Neo Umbrella organisation has fucking nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers and huge undersea bases growing super BOWs to literally destroy civilisation. Was this just a price-no-object thing, or were they still seeking to sell these creatures or drugs?

[Sidewinder]

And if you turn everyone into fucking zombies, you ALREADY overthrew the government, cause they're zombies now.

Trying to demonstrate how you're so ignorant of how the REAL WORLD works, Stark? If al-Qaeda used the T or G-virus against Islamabad, in an attempt to retrieve nuclear missile launch codes from the Presidential Palace, they will then have to deal with the zombies that are attacking everyone in sight.

[Alkaloid]

OK, but if they have the T or G virus weaponised to the point they can use it on Islamabad what possible reason do they have to steal a nuke? If you want to attack Washington DC or something you don't have to nuke it, you can just turn a chunk of the population into ravenous monsters and let them go to work. They are pretty much equally fucking terrifying.

[Stark]

Trying to demonstrate how you're so ignorant of how the REAL WORLD works, Stark? If al-Qaeda used the T or G-virus against Islamabad, in an attempt to retrieve nuclear missile launch codes from the Presidential Palace, they will then have to deal with the zombies that are attacking everyone in sight.

Why would you use a persistent agent if you wanted to go to the affected area and get something? This sounds like your plan's just retarded.

Good thing we're talking about the C-virus then I guess. Are you trying to demonstrate how ignorant you are about how RESIDENT EVIL works? And for fucks sake the zombies are militarily useless and they could just chopper some guys into the palace and get the codes. It's an effective terror attack because it kills millions and creates a huge problem, not because it's somehow impossible to pass through the area since there's like a dozen games where individuals do just that. I don't think anyone anywhere would say zombies are created to be a military threat. Except... Maybe you?

Hey Alkaloid I know they all ignored the video I posted but they have totally weaponised zombie-gas and can use a single missile to create millions of zombies. Obviously a missile attack is useless against the US military but depending on cost and difficulty of making the stuff, it's doable.

[Sidewinder]

Stark: You seem to forget the fact that biological weapons are WEAPONS. The C-virus you describe is used as a performance enhancement, a de facto STEROID. It is not being used to cause direct harm to enemy units, but to enhance the performance of your own units.

Please limit your arguments to those regarding Las Plagas, the T and G-viruses.

[Sidewinder]

And for fucks sake the zombies are militarily useless and they could just chopper some guys into the palace and get the codes.

Guys who must then deal with the zombies and monsters IN THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE.

It's an effective terror attack because it kills millions and creates a huge problem

For al-Qaeda itself- remember, the hypothetical attack is launched against a city in Pakistan, NOT in the US.

[Stark]

Uh, dude, they SAID it was a stimulant to trick people into using it. It's a fucking mass-from nowhere mutagen. It's not 'a deafacto steroid' unless steroids give you extra eyes and grasshopper legs (or let you blob out and merge with an aircraft carrier).

And look I'm sorry you don't know anything about RE6, but this is the current game in the series Resident Evil (known as Biohazard in Japan) and has certainly the most effective bioweapons, and is the only one to my knowledge which shows else BOWs used in a military context and interacting with military weapons and vehicles.

Man, a small woman dealt with zombies in a death trap police station. I'm sure an elite squad of fictional terrorists would do fine. And look, your example is dumb, don't stress about it too much - but it's obvious turning a city into zombies has utility for terrorists. I'm told warlords and terrorists actually did buy BOWs from Umbrella and Tricell, including giant fucking spiders 30m across, so someone must feel they're good for something (although certainly not fighting tanks, because that's stupid).

[Irbis]

Depends on who's using the weapon, and where. To use al-Qaeda as an example, turning New York into a city of zombies, is a success. Turning Islamabad into a city of zombies, on the other hand, is an EPIC FAIL- the terrorists intend to occupy the city after overthrowing the Pakistani government, and having to immunize every survivor while the city is cleared of monsters, would consume too many resources to be worth the hassle.

Well, unless zombies are somewhat realistic and starve. Then, clearing city can be done for pennies