The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

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Connor MacLeod
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The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I actually never intended to re-do so much of my stuff. It sort of just happened. This one you can attribute/blame on Aaron, since I remember him saying he rather liked the series, and since I think Aaron is cool, I decided I would redo it and try to update it to more of my 'current' (and hopefully not to chnage dramatically again) mindset on things. Well that and the fact I had never covered Annihilation squad yet, but it was reflecting more my 'current' viewsa on things. So I guess a total facelift makes sense in that regard. Let's hope Aaron likes it :P (Hell consider it a Christmas gift. LOL)

Anyhow, this is another of those series when I covered (much as like the Ultramarines series as we'll discover) when I was in some weird 'thematic' mood. I was trying to see if I could discover/discern some interesting ideas in the various works I read, and what I felt was working for me in the story, what didn't work, etc. I've kinda toned that down recently I think (mood has passed) but who knows, it might come back. (Incidentally this phase also saw alot of the Necromunda, some HH, a number of the IG novels and a few others having more THEMATIC in them too. Rather odd how that worked out, since I'm no less technically obsessed than I was before that.)

I would say that along with Angels of Darkness, the Last Chancers novels remain some of Gav's best work. His Eldar stuff was.. okay. I'll get to those later. Purging of Kadillus was meh (par for the course for some SMb novels), and the Horus Heresy stuff he pertaining to the Raven Guard is pretty good. Ravenwing comes out (for me) this month (or rather at the start of Janurary) so I suppose its a good time to delve into some of his good writing. And that means I also have something to place alongside Angels of Darkness at some future point (I even hear the Ravenwing book is pretty good so far.)

so yeah, Last Chancers. One of those 'drawing inspiration from WW2' things the Guard is famous for. In this case, its more akin to the 'Dirty Dozen' in analogy. Basically a Penal Legion with some extreme special-operations roles (and high expendability). The funny thing is I suspect the Last Chancers model has influenced how penal legions are viewed (at least thats how it seems from the 5th edition version, they seem to emphasize the 'expendable prisoners but with valuable skills' aspect, at leats.) The books, however, are a bit more complex than that. They aren't directly about the Last Chancers themselves - they're more of a vehicle for carrying the story. What the Last Chancers stories are about really is Lieutenant Kage, our (sort of) protagonist. He's cynical, murderously bloodthirsty, psychotic... but also a highly sympathetic character (especially in the first book.) It is Kage's mind, and his relationships (with the other Last Chancers, both comrades and those he commands later on) and with Colonel Schaeffer (who has a role but like the Legion is also a bit of window dressing to contrast off Kage.) Kage more or less embodies the Last Chancers as we learn, and that makes him something of a tragic figure (and where much of the sympathy for him comes, despite him being a mad-dog killer.) because there are reasons why he is as he is. And why Schaeffer himself is the way he is (in a way, he's just as crazy as Kage, just in a different vein.)

The setup of the Last Chancer trilogies is a bit similar to Eisenhorn in some ways, with Kage in the role of Eisenhorn. Each story is largely self contained, but also ties into a larger 'idea' that drives the series. I can't say I liked the conclusion of Last Chancers the same way I liked 'Hereticus', but it does fit the overall pattern. I suspect its just I'm not totally fond of Gav's view of 'grimdark' tragedy, or something. It also has some of the 'glimpse of the world of 40K' aspects alot of novels have had (and Gav brings back in his Eldar stuff and we saw in the Inquisition War novels.)

So, the first book is '13th Legion' which included the short story 'Deliverance' which is sort of a prelude to the events of the book and serves as the introduction to what the Last Chancers are (while they fight Tyranids.

Well enough babbling on my part. On we go... oh I also covered the introduction. normally don't feel like doing that, but I guess I was feelling all themy.. or maybe it was again Aaron's fault :P Don't expect me to make a habit of it lol.

Oh and the link to the old thread

Page 10-11
Another driving concept was to have a brief look at a very strong idea in the Last Chancers series – that of hope, and its eventual pointlessness (well, this is 40K after all).
Yeah, apparently 'grimdark' is supposed to be a theme in 40K. Thank god not every author believes this. To be fair to Gav, the Last Chancers stories are an appropriate one for Grimdark, because they're about condemned prisoners and soldiers, not regular people, so a dose of 'grimness' is appropriate. Sufficed to say there are limits.


Page 11-12
The tau, in typical 40K fashion, are aliens that are more like modern humans than the humans of the Imperium. In some ways, with their enlightened attitude to science and their co-operative ideals of the Greater Good, there was a danger that readers might start to think they're actually… well, nice! Never one to be too comfortable with anything that seems too clean and shiny, I wanted to add a few scuffs and a bit of grime to the underbelly, and so the idea of the tau being not quite so united, and not quite so enlightened with their dealings with aliens, formed the underlying vision. It was also, through the more ''modern'' outlook of the tau, a good chance to take an askance view at Kage and his fellow Imperials with all their wonderful medieval superstition and xenophobia.
So Gav apparently set out to 'dirty up' the tau from the get go. I have to say that personally I have no problem with that, although I know some tau fans resent the idea that the tau are anything but nice and perfect people. As if aliens should be one dimensional and nothing else. also I find it a bit hilarious that the tau are supposed to be 'more like modern humans'. I mean can you really picture the tau as the United States?


Page 18
I guess it ain't that surprising, considering that to these guys a simple mono-edged knife is a creation of the gods.
'simple mono edged knife'. The interesting thing is that Kage implies the Guard has access to them, but they give them to tribesmen (or might give them to them.)

To be fair 'mono edged' in 40K just usually means 'really sharp' although some authors might take a more sci-fi type view (eg James Swallow.) 40K knives are either made sharper, made stronger, or sometimes both (EG mono, adamantium, or the occasional chain/power enhancement.)


Page 18
The lictor then leaps at Franx's squad, but even as it races towards them, hissing like some damned Oviran cobra, they tear it apart with their lasguns and heavy bolter.
'Tear apart' a Lictor. Assuming 2 m tall and 50 cm across, and 100 or so lasgun shots equalling the heavy bolter. (and 400 j per sq cm flaying flash burns) thats 20 kj per lasgun shot.


Page 19
I walk up to make sure it's truly dead. You can never tell with these fragging tyranids. Some of them have got powers of regeneration you wouldn't believe.
Tyranid regeneration/durability.


Page 19
"Mount up and move out!"

Some of them begin to walk back to the Chimera transports..
The Last Chancers, a penal legion, have Chimeras. Chimeras are supposed to be like, super duper rare and hard to procure and maintain and only for the super duper special troop forces. and yet they give them to the Last Chancers. Whether this is supposed to reflect Chimeras being dirt common, or the special pull that Schaefer apparently has (and is demonstrated repeatedly throughout the series.) we don't know, and it can go either way.


Page 19
Like me, like all the Last Chancers, they were thrown out of their regular units for breaking the Imperial Guard's rules in a big way, to serve the rest of their lives in a penal legion.
How you end up in a Penal Legion like the Chancers.

Page 20-21
"we've had a contact with the relief force. They are no more than two days away. If we can hold for just forty-eight hours, mere will be two whole regiments of Imperial Guard. The wall should be fairly straightforward to defend. It is eighteen feet high, so we just have to worry about their hormagaunts and lictors leaping straight up it..."
2 day (or less) response time from the IG forces. Presumably they had astropathic contact (in another system, since using astrotelepaths in the warp is supposed to be a beacon to daemons and rather dangerous) IT's possible the troops were in the system at the time, but if that were the case it would either be incredible luck or imperial forces make a habit of being nearby this place (whcih is also unlikely, givne the context.)

Another irony is that either way its 2 days implied to travel through the warp and reach the system, which includes insystem travel. This is the fastest speed EVER in a Gav Thorpe story, where it takes days (or weeks) to usually travel insystem distances.

Also, hormagaunts and Lictors can make 18 feet high jumps at least.


Page 21
"We have two Hydras and this keep has four point-defence emplacements. "
Wow they evne have hydras. This is one well equipped penal legion!


Page 23
It's hard though, so hard, 'cause I was there on Ichar IV, I saw what they can do to a world, how they fight. There were six thousand Last Chancers back then. Less than five hundred of us made it out. The regular troops, I hear, lost over a million men defending Ichar IV.

There were Titans there, and Space Marines too, if the rumours are true, and even those eldar turned up, I heard someone say once. All those guns, all those men and we only just won the fight.
Hah! a million men lost is PALTRY losses by IG and grimdark terms, especially against the 'nids. Note the Eldar cooperation with the Imperium.

Also (one) example of a Penal Legion size. high end for Regiments.


Page 24
..I rip my chainsword from my belt and get the blades whirling..
Kage has a chainsword. What happens to it later we don't know.


Page 25
..then something hits me hard in the back. This thing is latched onto me, and I can't get at it. I feel its claws scrabbling at my flak jacket, hear the material tearing away, and its hot breath is on my neck, a long pointed tongue slithering over my neck. Its jaws latch onto my shoulder and I try to angle my laspistol round for a shot, desperately trying to rip this beast off of me, 'cause I don't want to be killed by some damned termagant.
The flak jacket seems to provide enough protection to prevent the termagant's claws and teeth from gutting him or otherwise tearing out his shoulder. By flak standards thats damn impressive.



Page 26
They stop there for half a heartbeat, bunching those powerful leg muscles and then they spring up, clearing the wall by a good two or three feet
Hormagaunt leap. 20-21 feet plus the 18 feet earlier. That's a damned impressive leap, especially vertical from a standing start.


Page 27
"But these men need treating, you cannot make them fight again." Nathaniel's complaining.
"If these men cannot fight, they are dead, missionary."
Oh hey a humanitarian priest. No good against Schaefer though.


Page 27
"They are thieves, murderers, looters, rapists, insubordinates and heretics. Every sin you can conceive of has been committed by at least one man here. More than that, they are traitors. They once served as free men in the great Imperial army. But they betrayed the trust placed in them by the Emperor and his servants. They have broken the proscriptions of Imperial Law and have profaned the Emperor's benevolence with their selfishness and I will, I must, punish them for it."
Frankly I remain amazed ANY of that (minus the insubordination or heresy) is illegal under Imperial Law (EG the stuff the Arbites enforce), much less against IG regs. It makes the Imperium sound almost... respectable!

Of course considering stuff like the GG series we know things like this, but this is Grimdark novels!


Page 28
.. I help Kronin's platoon rig up some searchlights scavenged from the Chimeras and get them set up on the wall. The constant hum of the portable generators fills the air..
Portable gnerators and searchlights


Page 29
Behind them are crouched the warriors, big beasts twice as tall as a man, their four upper limbs evolved into a variety of deadly ranged and close combat weapons.
Tyranid warriors.


PAge 29
"When you shoot, aim for the flesh. Your lasguns will have about as much effect on their carapace as punching a Leman Russ. Watch your ammo counters too"
Rules with lasguns - aim for the weak spots, not the carapace. Apparently this goes even for the 'cannon fodder' 'nids, meaning the lowest Nids are pretty well protected against many 'basic' weapons. When you factor in the redundant physiology and/or regenerative abilities...

This sort of echoes stuff we learn in the 'Xenos Hunters' story and from the 'Nid codex: the carapace (even of gaunts) is resistant to lasfire by and large, so you aim for the flexible/weak points. Of course if you're a Space Marine bolters are IDEAL for penetrating. Because Bolters are the bestest and most special after all...


Page 32
With a screech of tearing plasteel the gates are torn apart and the Chimera gets shunted towards us. There's a sound like a tank ramming a building and the personnel carrier is flung upwards, spinning through the air. It crashes down and its fuel goes up, a massive fireball that shoots thirty metres into the air. In
Strength of a Carnifex. It can shove away/toss aside a ~40 tonne tank


Page 32-33
In the red glare comes this huge tyranid creature, about four metres tall and just as wide. It's some kind of Carnifex, but nothing I've ever seen before. It's got four massive scythe-like arms, but the bony extrusions across its shoulders jut forward, rows of spikes thrust outwards like it's some kind of living battering ram. Nestled between its immense shoulders, its head is kind of fused with its chest, a large fang-ringed mouth open in a permanent roar.
...
Without pause, it shoulders aside the wreck of the Chimera ...
...
Breiden opens up with the lascannon, a bolt of energy powerful enough to cripple battle tanks scoring a wound across the carnifex's armoured skull making thick, dark blood dribble down the exoskele-ton of its body. The heavy bolter in Franz's squad kicks in, explosive shells rippling across legs as thick as tree trunks in a shower of detonations.

...
Lasgun fire, heavy bolter shots and lascannon shots bounce off as it lumbers towards us. Once more its mouth opens for another terrifying roar, but Breiden picks his moment precisely, his aim guided by the Emperor I'm sure, and the next lascannon bolt lands in its mouth, smashing its head to a pulp, scattering fragments of skull across the courtyard.
The resilience of a Carnifex. Even lascannon fire glances off it, unless you hit it right in the mouth.

Assuming the 4 m tall/wide fex.. its head is maybe 1/8 to 1/10 the height/width of the creature.. we're talking 40-50 cm tall/wide head at least. Possibly as much as twice that. A carnifex of that size masses 8-9 tonnes as per IA4. Given head/body mass ratios for a humanoid shape, we might figure on many hundreds of kilos for the 'Fex (close to a ton perhaps on the uppre end of the scale.)

Going by just flash burns (call it 400 j per sq cm) and a 40x40 cm head to 100x100 cm head..at least 640 kj to 4 MJ. The higher ned of the scale is quite possible, as we know that matches the lascannon yield from Inferno Magazine for the Demolisher.

Assuming significant scalding(3rd degree burns)/boiling to a large percentage of the flesh (100-250 kj per kg) as a more approximate 'upper' end - we'd get around 40-100 MJ for a 400 kg 'head' As an order of magnitude (percentage of head volume/mass burnt, level of thermal damage, actual mass of head, etc.) its probably within that range. Overall single or double digit MJ for the lascannon baesd on this seems a reasonable conclusion, although it certainly does not rule out higher - especialyl for a mostly thermal lascannon damage mechanism.


Page 46
I see the others settling into places along the three benches, securing themselves with thick restraint belts that hang from beams that stretch at head height along the shuttle chamber's ten-metre length.
Length of the shuttle compartment. I'd guess the shuttle overall is maybe 15-20m long at least.


Page 48
Forty pairs of eyes look towards me in anticipation of the next twist of the tale.
Shuttle can hold at least 40-41 people.


Page 50
There are twenty of the massive cells in all. Originally each held two hundred men, but after the past thirty months of nearconstant war, nearly all of them stand empty now.
That would make 4000 Last Chancers.. except that they mention have 6000 in the short story.


Page 50
The armsmen swagger around, shotcannons grasped easily in heavily gloved hands or slung over their shoulders. Their faces are covered by the helms of their heavy-duty work suits, and their flash-protective visors conceal their features.
Naval armsmen. Flash visors and shotcannon.


Page 51
..leaving me locked in this room with ten score murderers, thieves, rapists, heretics, looters, shirkers, desecrators, grave-robbers, necrophiles, maniacs, insubordinates, blasphemers and other assorted vermin for company.
Crimes that get you thrown into the Penal Legions (which means violations of IG regulation and/or Imperial Law, going by previous statements.) Again it kind of surprises you waht the Imperium won't put up with.

Page 51
..I can smell their combined sweat from several days on the furnace-hot planet below.
That confirms the 48 hour respons time (approximately) in the Deliverance short story.

PAge 56
The food is also picked to grind you down. I know for a fact that they brought hundreds of horn-heads on board from the plains around Deliverance, but do we see any sign of freshly slaughtered meat? Do we ever. No, it's just the same brown, half-liquid slush that you have to shovel into your mouth with your fingers, feeling it slide horribly down your throat with the consistency of cold vomit. You get used to it after a while, you have to. You just shove it in, swallow and hope you don't gag too much. It doesn't even taste of anything except the brackish water it's mixed with.

It's cold and slimy, and more than once I've felt like hurling the stuff back into the armsmen's faces, but that'd just get me a kicking and the chance to go hungry. For all of its lack of delights, it certainly fills your stomach and keeps you going, which is all it's supposed to do.

As usual I'm sitting with Franx and Gappo, who are the closest thing to friends that I've got in this miserable outfit. We spend a few minutes cramming our faces with the sludge, before washing it down with reconstituted fruit juice. For some people, fruit juice might seem like an extravagance, but on board ship, where the air's constantly refiltered over and over, and there's only artificial light and close confines, it's the best way of stopping any diseases. There are tales of whole ships' crews being wiped out by Thalois fever or muritan cholettia, and that's too much of a risk to take when you only need to give a man half a pint of juice a day to stave off the worst.
Cuisine of the penal Legions, aboard ship at least. Whatever it is it has protein in it as well. One imagines the Guard must eat better, although how much better is up for debate. The ship crews at least seem to, going by fresh meat.

Also, fruit juice to stave off Space Scurvy.


Page 57
"You know, I'm from an agri-world," Franx says. "Just a farmer, wasn't much hardship. Had lots of machines, single man could tend fifteen hundred hectares. Was always plenty to eat, women were young and healthy, nothing more a man could want."
Sounds like as close to a paradise you could get in the Imperium. note the reference to having lots of machines to work the land :P


Page 57-58
"Got listed for the Departmento Munitorum tithe when orks invaded Alris Colvin. I was mustered. That was it, no choice."
...
"As a trooper, I didn't have to worry about anything except orders. Got foddered and watered, had the comfort that whatever I was told to do would be the right thing."
...
"Higher up the chain of command I got, less I liked it. Soon making decisions that get men killed and maimed. All of a sudden it seemed like it was all my responsibility. Colonel was a born officer, one of the gentry, didn't give a second thought to troopers, was just making sure he could sneak his way up the greasy pole of the upper ranks, hoping to make commander-general or warmaster."
...
"Stuck in the middle of an ice plain on Fortuna II, been on half rations for a month because the rebels kept shooting down our supply shuttles. Got the order to attack a keep called Lanskar's Citadel, two dozen leagues across bare ice. Officers were dining on stewed horndeer and braised black ox, drinking Chanalain brandy; my men were eating dried food substitutes and making water from snow. Led my two companies into the officers' camp and demanded supplies for the march. Departmento bastards turned us down flat and the men went on the rampage, looting everything. Didn't try to stop them, they were cold and starving. What was I supposed to do? Order them back into the ice wastes to attack an enemy-held fort with empty stomachs?"
Ah, life in the Guard. At least, the downsides. Politics and Munitorum bullshit fucking you over. AT least the stupid side of Munitorum parsimony and bullshit. Oh and forced conscription. At least they feed you.


Page 58
"Questioning whether there really was an Emperor. How stupid are you?"

"I cannot believe that such suffering could happen if there were such a divine influence looking over humanity," Gappo replies emphatically. "If there is an Emperor, which I doubt, the cardinal and others like him representing such a figure is patentlyridiculous."
Boy, were you born into the wrong universe.


Page 61
In their wake, a bare rock orbited the star, scoured of every organic particle, stripped of all but the most basic elements. Nothing was left of the fanning world of Langosta III. There were no testaments to the humans who had once lived there. Now all that was left was an airless asteroid, the unmarked dying place of three million people.
Hive Fleet strikes again.


Page 64
I'm standing in the upper starboard gallery, along with another two dozen Last Chancers. The row of windows to our right continues for several hundred metres.
Lower limit on the size of the starship.


Page 65
"Even the newest explored system usually gets a name, even if it's just the same as the ship or the man who found it."
...
"I've just had a thought. No name probably means it's a dead system, no life-bearing worlds, right?"

"Could be," I say, though I wouldn't really know. Unlike Poal who was brought up by the Schola Progenium, my education consisted more of how to work a las-lathe and parry an axe-blow with a crowbar.

"And a dead system is just the place you'd put a penal colony…"
Commentary on planetary importance and naming conventions. Apparently outposts (and penal colonies) are minor and unimportant worlds, relatively speaking.

Las lathe - device used in hive factory.



Page 68-69
"It seems that defending Ichar IV was not necessarily the best plan in the world."
...
"Saving a hundred and ninety billion people was a bad plan, sir?" I ask, amazed at what the Colonel is implying.

"If by doing so we cause five hundred billion people to die, then yes."
...
"Five hundred billion, sir?"
...
"Much of it we managed to locate and destroy while the tyranids were still reeling from their defeat. However, we believe a sizeable proportion of the survivors that attacked Ichar IV coalesced into a new fleet, heading in a different direction. It is impossible to say exactly where they are heading, but reports from monitoring stations and patrol vessels indicate that its course might lead straight into the heart of the sector we are now in - the Typhon sector. If we had let them have Ichar IV, we might have mustered more of a defence and destroyed the tyranids utterly rather than scattering them to hell and back where we cannot find them and it is impossible to track them down until too late."
...
"So instead of losing a planet, we could lose the whole of Typhon sector?" I ask, finally catching on to what the Colonel is implying. "That's where five hundred billion people might die?"
...
Five hundred billion people, all of them devoured by hideous, unfeeling aliens if the tyranids couldn't be stopped.It's so many people you can't picture it. It's far more than a hive, more than an entire hive world.
Kage and Schaeffer discuss the post Ichar IV situation with Hive Fleet Kraken (or at least, a part of it.) Ichar IV had 190 billion, yet apparently 500 billion is 'more' than a hive or hive world (according to Kage), even though we know some Hive worlds can get that big. It would probably mean that most hive worlds (at least those Kage knows about, if we take him as absolute authority) are far less than 500 billion.

In this context, the Typhon Sector has 500 billion people in it. With thousands of sectors in the Imperium (and hundreds of worlds per sector) that's easily quadrillions of people. It's also a bit creepy to hear them talking about sacrificing an entire world - even a major industrial one - simply to stop the 'nids. It has echoes of Kryptman later on.


Page 73
I don't know how long the enmity between the Navy and Guard has lasted, probably since they were split up right after the Great Heresy. That was one of the first things I learned when I joined the Imperial Guard - Navy and Guard don't mix. I mean, how can you respect the Navy when they think that they can deal with anything, just by stopping the threat before it reaches a planet. Half the fraggin' time they don't even know there's a threat until it's too late. And then their answer is just to frag everything to the warp and back from orbit with their big guns. I'm no strategist, but without the Guard to fight the ground wars, I reckon the Navy'd be next to useless. All they're good for is getting us from one warzone to the next relatively intact.
A rather obvious demonstrateion of KAge's bias... the Navy after all provides the aerial and orbital bombardment support, as well as logistical support in many cases, that those 'ground armies' need. What's more some threats can be dealt with via orbital bombardment rather than deploiyng troops on the ground.


Page 73-74
If there are tyranids here, in the Typhon Sector, it's our job to hunt them down and kill them before they do their transmitting thing, or whatever it is they do. If we don't, the Colonel informs me, then there's going to be upwards of a hundred hive ships floating this way over the next couple of years, gearing up to devour everything for a hundred light years in every direction.
Wiping out an entire sector (100 LY radius) in a few years is easily tens or hundreds of c warp speed


Page 78
We stumble into False Hope Station later the same day...
...
The whole outpost is covered with vines and trailing leaves..


False Hope station. The only human inhabitaiton on the planet, which is a Death World of some type


Page 84
"Records show that at the last count there were seventy-five Guardsmen and one hundred and forty-eight civilians in False Hope Station,"
Population of aforementioend outpost.


Page 89
..taking a swig of dentclene from a foil pouch and swilling it around my mouth before spitting the foamy liquid into a puddle by the lieutenant's feet.
Dental care in the penal legions.


Page 89
"I've seen bio-titans twenty-five metres tall, great four-legged things that can trample buildings and crush battle tanks in their huge claws."
Height of bio-titans. I'm willing to bet these AREN'T the Hierophant chibi-titans outmassed by Leman Russes.


Page 89
"When you've got a four-metre tall tyranid warrior standing in front of you, then you know what tyranids are like. Its carapace oozes this lubricant slime to keep the plates from chafing, it's got fangs as long as your fingers and four arms."
Warriors are 4 m tall, which are supposed to be 'twice as tall as a man.', which puts a man (or some men) at 2 m tall average. Like in the Ghosts novels :P Again people in 40K seem taller/bigger than normal people on average. Although this isn't absolute in all regards, and it can vary according to source.


Page 90
It was only Craggon and his plasma gun that saved us, incinerating the alien monstrosities as they carved through us. As it was, those three tyranid warriors killed fifteen men before they were brought down.
According to IA4, winged Tyranid warriors (which I assume are similar to the ground based types) mass 2.5 tonnes and averaged 2.4 M tall (although here it was 4 m tall.. go figure. Assuming a width equal to 1/5 the height we get between 50 and 80 cm wide (2.4-4 m tall) If we assume 'incinerate' meands badly burn, call it 100-1000 J per sq cm. it would be between 7.2-72 MJ and 19.2-192 MJ for 'incinerating' 3 Warriors via flash burns. Assuming the 100-250 kj per kg I estimated for the Carnifex earlier we get between 750 MJ and 1.9 GJ. If outright cremation we're talking double digit GJ.

The next question of c ourse is.. how many shots. It's clearly more than 3 shots, but probably fewer than 40 shots (Rogue Trader RPg output, IIRC) For 7.2 MJ we get 180 kj to 2.4 MJ per shot (10x greater for the second value) 480 kj to 6.4 MJ per shot for the second incinverating value. For the ssecond set of calcs we get 19 to 250 MJ per shot, or 48 to 633 MJ per shot. And at double digit GJ.. we're probably talking at least half a MJ to a gigajoule at least per shot, or double digit GJ. :P


Page 94
circle. Men start firing their lasguns at the approaching vines, shearing through the tendrils with bolts of compressed light
Lasguns shearing vines with 'light'


Page 98-99
"'get your comms-operator to call down the shuttles, and order a bombardment of that… thing."
...
The Colonel steps forward, gazing intentiy towards the god-plant.

"Whatever it was," he says with a hint of satisfaction, "it is going to be dead soon. I am tempted to request this whole world be virus bombed, just to make sure."
...
It's with a good feeling in the pit of my stomach that I look out of the shuttle window as we roar up into the sky of False Hope.

Out of the window I can see a raging fire, setting light across hundreds of square kilometres of jungle. Another bright flash descends from orbit into the ground with an explosion as our transport ship, the Pride of Lothus, fires another shot from its plasma driver into the god-plant.
Plasma weapons on the military transport seeming to ignite 'hundreds of square kilometres' of jungle. We dont know how many shots were fired, at least one, and they probably didn't start bombarding until they lifted off the planet (so for less than an hour, I'd say.) Say, less than a hundred shots, although I'd guess only a handful (or a few dozen). Kiloton-megaton range, at least. Assuming 125 j per square cm to cause flash burns over 200 square km of jungle (at least, we might be talking some 250 TJ at least.


Page 101
To make matters even worse, there's been no sign of the Colonel for the past three weeks. Talking to the ratings, it seems he disappeared on a rapid transport two days after we left False Hope orbit, taking Hopkins with him.
Does this mean the transport had some sort of warp capable parasite craft aboard it? Certainly no other vessel is mentioned in the system, if we was being transported elswhere.
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Aaron MkII
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Aaron MkII »

Where'd you get the idea that Chimera's are rare? I always got the impression there a dime a dozen and have as many variants.

Are you maybe thinking of the Rhino?

Oh and thanks. Marry xmas bro. :)
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PainRack
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by PainRack »

Connor MacLeod wrote: The Last Chancers, a penal legion, have Chimeras. Chimeras are supposed to be like, super duper rare and hard to procure and maintain and only for the super duper special troop forces. and yet they give them to the Last Chancers. Whether this is supposed to reflect Chimeras being dirt common, or the special pull that Schaefer apparently has (and is demonstrated repeatedly throughout the series.) we don't know, and it can go either way.
The Chancers are never shown to have Chimeras again later, right? Other than the movement to that city later.....

Page 20-21
"we've had a contact with the relief force. They are no more than two days away. If we can hold for just forty-eight hours, mere will be two whole regiments of Imperial Guard. The wall should be fairly straightforward to defend. It is eighteen feet high, so we just have to worry about their hormagaunts and lictors leaping straight up it..."
2 day (or less) response time from the IG forces. Presumably they had astropathic contact (in another system, since using astrotelepaths in the warp is supposed to be a beacon to daemons and rather dangerous) IT's possible the troops were in the system at the time, but if that were the case it would either be incredible luck or imperial forces make a habit of being nearby this place (whcih is also unlikely, givne the context.)

Another irony is that either way its 2 days implied to travel through the warp and reach the system, which includes insystem travel. This is the fastest speed EVER in a Gav Thorpe story, where it takes days (or weeks) to usually travel insystem distances.

Also, hormagaunts and Lictors can make 18 feet high jumps at least.
I don't get this part. Why do you assume that the Guards response time is 2 days or less? The Last Chancers themselves were suposedly redeployed to protect these primitive tribesmen and the Sisters of Battle has had enough time to rally tribesmen to protect the keep.
I always read it as the Last Chancers were the tip of a RDF and reinforcements were arriving to back it up. Hell, maybe one of those infamous warp translation problems, where other ships were delayed due to warp transit issues.

Wow they evne have hydras. This is one well equipped penal legion!
Again, wasn't the hydras implied to be that of the Keep?
Frankly I remain amazed ANY of that (minus the insubordination or heresy) is illegal under Imperial Law (EG the stuff the Arbites enforce), much less against IG regs. It makes the Imperium sound almost... respectable!

Of course considering stuff like the GG series we know things like this, but this is Grimdark novels!
.... Wasn't any of that rapist, murderer, looter stuff mentioned in the Imperial regs? I can't recall whether its mentioned in the Infantry Uplifting Premier, but the whole rapists/thief thing was a common description of the penal legions in Codex Imperialis...... You know, amongst the dying of a thousand thieves, rapists and heretics, one lone killer survives part...



Kage and Schaeffer discuss the post Ichar IV situation with Hive Fleet Kraken (or at least, a part of it.) Ichar IV had 190 billion, yet apparently 500 billion is 'more' than a hive or hive world (according to Kage), even though we know some Hive worlds can get that big. It would probably mean that most hive worlds (at least those Kage knows about, if we take him as absolute authority) are far less than 500 billion.

In this context, the Typhon Sector has 500 billion people in it. With thousands of sectors in the Imperium (and hundreds of worlds per sector) that's easily quadrillions of people. It's also a bit creepy to hear them talking about sacrificing an entire world - even a major industrial one - simply to stop the 'nids. It has echoes of Kryptman later on.
The whole Ichar IV analysis and hive city numbers was.. the most stupid part of the Last Chancers. Sure.... don't stop the Hive Fleet at Ichar IV. So, what's to prevent a large hive fleet from overrunning every other planet then?

As for Hive worlds, Kage consistently lowballs hive world numbers. Its not implausibly low, but it does suggest that the world he lives in is much less denser than other contemporary worlds. Something not totally implausible, since we were introduced to Hive worlds where there were only a few hive cities of relatively small size in the FFG material.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Aaron MkII »

No they were going to take Chimera's on the ice world, later on. Then they get sucked into space.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by PainRack »

Aaron MkII wrote:No they were going to take Chimera's on the ice world, later on. Then they get sucked into space.
The Chimeras were present on the IG side, but they ended up slogging through the ice didn't they......
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Darksider »

Argh. Your discussion is making me want to read this series and I can't find the Omnibus of it anywhere.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Aaron MkII »

PainRack wrote:
Aaron MkII wrote:No they were going to take Chimera's on the ice world, later on. Then they get sucked into space.
The Chimeras were present on the IG side, but they ended up slogging through the ice didn't they......
The locals had them. The Last Chancers (unless I'm remembering wrong) get attacked by Eldar before they can land, and they vent the vehicle bay into space. Along with the Chimera's, Eldar and a bunch of Last Chancer's.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Aaron MkII »

Their hamstrung by their past and crippled by their arrogance.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Stark »

But surely they have grapples on their armoured pressure suits? The poor IG I can imagine having a bad time (tanks being blown out is a bit strange) but the guys who should be prepared for zero-g combat should be totally fine with lame stuff like 'release atmosphere'. I bet terminators don't fly away if you open a space door!
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Aaron MkII »

Lol, yeah.

I'm not even sure the Eldar have suits, they always seem to be in that cheesy armour.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Aaron MkII wrote:Where'd you get the idea that Chimera's are rare? I always got the impression there a dime a dozen and have as many variants.

Are you maybe thinking of the Rhino?
Nope, Chimera. I was going off one blurb from teh 5th edition Codex for the Guard:
Mechanised infantry companies are normally quite rare in the Imperial Guard. This is because it is difficult for most Imperial Commanders and Planetary Governors to obtain and maintain enough of the vehicles needed for such a formation. Amongst those rare few regiments that can equip their companies so....
Chimeras being rare and hard to maintain seems to suggest they're uncommon, although you might argue this means 'fully mechanised' infantry is relatively rare and Chimeras themselves are more common. Plus there's the fact that (due to Forge world's desire to make more 'rare' models that seem to become increasingly commonplace) Chimera hulls seem to be used for literally everything given all the variants (basilisks and Griffons and other arty platforms, Salamanders recon vehicles, and the Trojan support vehicle (which itself is common as fuck and often gets reworked in the field into impromptu combat vehicles and APCs...)

Other interpretations might also be 'fully mechanised regiments in chimeras' are simply rare, and other forms of transport (drop ships, Centaurs, heavy transports like the Crassus and Gorgon, Superheavy tank/transports like the Leviathan or the Stormlord.) Heck we know they have motorised formations as per the 3rd edition Guard Codex (and mobile infantry, however they manage that)

heck the IG codex itself isn't very constant on the matter (I suspect like the 5th ed Space Marine codex, they combined recycled material with 'new' material and it lead to some confusing disparities.)
Oh and thanks. Marry xmas bro. :)
Welcome. Feel free to inject your own comments and such, I'd welcome the input :D
Aaron MkII wrote:
PainRack wrote:
Aaron MkII wrote:No they were going to take Chimera's on the ice world, later on. Then they get sucked into space.
The Chimeras were present on the IG side, but they ended up slogging through the ice didn't they......
The locals had them. The Last Chancers (unless I'm remembering wrong) get attacked by Eldar before they can land, and they vent the vehicle bay into space. Along with the Chimera's, Eldar and a bunch of Last Chancer's.
Near as we know from events you're remembering them correctly. And they weren't quite Chimeras, more like 'chimera like vehicles modified for ice worlds, because regular chimeras wouldn't work.'
The book wrote:We have three of the Chimeras on board one of the dropships and are getting ready to take another two onto the other when the ratings start hurrying around us, a sudden panic stirring them into activity. I grab a warrant officer by the arm as he tries to dash past.
...
I look back out of the window and see the launch doors beginning to buckle under the strain. The huge doors, three metres thick, give way with a loud screeching, each one weighing several tons, ripped off their massive hinges and flung into the darkness. All hell breaks loose on the shuttle bay deck as shuttles, dropships, Chimeras, men and eldar are sucked into the air by the escaping atmosphere.
So basically the chimeras on the drop ships, and the other two yet to be loaded, seem to have been blown out.
Later on in same book wrote: It seems our Chimeras are useless down here after all; the locals use a transport built from a Chimera chassis on top of a set of skis and driven by a giant turbofan engine.
...
The Kragmeerites have one-in-three of their ski-based Chimeras converted into fuel carriers for long range work, and it stands to reason that orks would need some kind of support vehicles.
The vehicles on planet in question.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stark wrote:But surely they have grapples on their armoured pressure suits? The poor IG I can imagine having a bad time (tanks being blown out is a bit strange) but the guys who should be prepared for zero-g combat should be totally fine with lame stuff like 'release atmosphere'.
Well in the novel they get described as being like Dark Eldar of 3rd era vintage (bondage outfits, poisoned blades, splinter weapons) even though their ships evidently have holofields (which if you go by BFG, the Dark Eldar do not.) So they may either be pirates or Dark Eldar (or dark eldar pirates!) and they do not as I recall always invest in fully enclosed armor (not freedomy enough, I guess. Or maybe not BDSM enough for 3rd edition Dark eldar. Who knows.)

Not that I'm sure this changes your point, since I'm hard pressed to remember the Craftworld Eldar having anything like that on their suits either. But then again its not like the Eldar writings are as prolific as the Space Marine/Imperium stuff, either.
I bet terminators don't fly away if you open a space door!
Space Marines and terminators supposedly have magnetic adhesion thingamajigs on their feet to help them in zero-gee situations. But Space Marines are SPECIAL, I mean they're the ones who get the bolters and chainswords and huge pauldrons and whatnot.... Every other faction that isn't Inquisitors can go fuck themselves.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

PainRack wrote:The Chancers are never shown to have Chimeras again later, right? Other than the movement to that city later.....
As Aaron says, they lost them when they vented the hangar. 3 were loaded onboard, two had been left to be boarded when the (dark) Eldar decided to raid the ship.


I don't get this part. Why do you assume that the Guards response time is 2 days or less? The Last Chancers themselves were suposedly redeployed to protect these primitive tribesmen and the Sisters of Battle has had enough time to rally tribesmen to protect the keep.
I always read it as the Last Chancers were the tip of a RDF and reinforcements were arriving to back it up. Hell, maybe one of those infamous warp translation problems, where other ships were delayed due to warp transit issues.
Fuck if I remember. I had a reason for it when I wrote it, but Id on't remember what it was in the Omnibus that made me think that way. For that matter, given Gav's tendency to write fleets taking a week or more to get inssystem, I suppose it would be likely that they're simply two days out in-system. Sort of like the 'warp' torpedoes that move at sublight speeds through the warp in the HH novels.


Again, wasn't the hydras implied to be that of the Keep?
Not that I recall. The 'keep' was probably for the Ecclesiarchy/Sisters of Battle and the only Guard forces currently on planet were the Last Chancers. Do you recall any examples of the Sisters using Guard issue equipment like a Hydra? I don't.

Of course given what Schaeffer cna requisition, its entirely possible they're there as a result of his influence. He tends to have a Kriegesque view about material expenditures (its there to be used, and to achieve his ends. Much like the entire stockpile 'misplaced' by the Munioturm on Armageddon in Annihilation Squad or the appropriated Storm Trooper transport in Kill Team.)

.... Wasn't any of that rapist, murderer, looter stuff mentioned in the Imperial regs? I can't recall whether its mentioned in the Infantry Uplifting Premier, but the whole rapists/thief thing was a common description of the penal legions in Codex Imperialis...... You know, amongst the dying of a thousand thieves, rapists and heretics, one lone killer survives part...
It could be, but the idea that the Munitorum cares about anything other than making sure its bureaucratic regulations are adhered to and that their material quotas are filled and conserved (don't want to expend those precious munitions and technology 'unneccessarily' like Vraks...) is frankly astonishing. I do not have a very high opinion of the Munitorum or Administratum as a rule, and normally this is the sort of thing you're more accustomed to reading in an Abnett novel.

The whole Ichar IV analysis and hive city numbers was.. the most stupid part of the Last Chancers. Sure.... don't stop the Hive Fleet at Ichar IV. So, what's to prevent a large hive fleet from overrunning every other planet then?
That wasn't the entirety of the Hive fleet, though. Recall that at least one other part was attacking elsewhere (Iyanden got massacred.) and the forces that survived Ichar broke up into the splinter fleets (and lots of them) so it apparently wasn't decisive. Schaeffer seems to be arguing that they should have waited and let the Tyranids commit themselves more fully to the assault and then moved in to destroy them decisively whilst they were bogged down in assault. Not unlike Kryptmann's strategy of biomass denial in some respects, and reflecting more of the Colonels' Kriegesque attitude towards people and materiel (a reflection of his religious fanatacism really.)
As for Hive worlds, Kage consistently lowballs hive world numbers. Its not implausibly low, but it does suggest that the world he lives in is much less denser than other contemporary worlds. Something not totally implausible, since we were introduced to Hive worlds where there were only a few hive cities of relatively small size in the FFG material.
It's not like Hive worlds are precisely defined except within the boundaries of the Codex-oriented materials (and sometimes not even then.) The Eisenhorn and Ghosts novels featured a good many of the 'tens of billions or smaller' hives, for example. And given that the sector only had some fifty worlds (compared to hundreds of worlds for other sectors.) its probably not too far off base either and those series were running about the same time.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Stark »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Not that I'm sure this changes your point, since I'm hard pressed to remember the Craftworld Eldar having anything like that on their suits either. But then again its not like the Eldar writings are as prolific as the Space Marine/Imperium stuff, either.
Are you saying space elves in space who fight in space during a space battle which took place in space did not have a) a pressure suit and b) a device to maneouvre in space or remain attached to a deck?

40k novels = pretty fucking dumb. So how'd the tanks get blown into space by one whole atmosphere of pressure? Someone set off their RATO bottles? :V
Space Marines and terminators supposedly have magnetic adhesion thingamajigs on their feet to help them in zero-gee situations. But Space Marines are SPECIAL, I mean they're the ones who get the bolters and chainswords and huge pauldrons and whatnot.... Every other faction that isn't Inquisitors can go fuck themselves.
Even the ship shooting something at them to kill them would be less ridiculous than 'space invading space pirates defeated by being in space'. Maybe because they're dark bondage submissive eldar, they see dying as winning. :lol:
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Zinegata »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Mechanised infantry companies are normally quite rare in the Imperial Guard. This is because it is difficult for most Imperial Commanders and Planetary Governors to obtain and maintain enough of the vehicles needed for such a formation. Amongst those rare few regiments that can equip their companies so....
Chimeras being rare and hard to maintain seems to suggest they're uncommon, although you might argue this means 'fully mechanised' infantry is relatively rare and Chimeras themselves are more common.
I'm more inclined to believe the interpretation that fully mechanized regiments are uncommon, but the vehicle itself is fairly common. They show up often enough in Guard novels.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stark wrote:Are you saying space elves in space who fight in space during a space battle which took place in space did not have a) a pressure suit and b) a device to maneouvre in space or remain attached to a deck?
These space elves? Seems so. Some Eldar pirates/Dark Eldar seem to have fully enclosed body armor/suits (like Aspect Warriors and IIRC Guardians) but others.. don't. In the case of the Eldar I suspect relatively few of them actually LEAVE the craftworlds, so being outside a zero-gee enviroment is unusual (considering the Infinity Circuit can control gravity to prevent an Eldar from falling to his death, they have pretty good and redundant control over it due to MAGIC spirits.)

Dark Eldar and Pirates probably take an 'everyone for themselves' approach - hell I wouldn't be surprised if depressurization were an assasination method aboard Dark Eldar starships (brilliant, right?). And I have on answer for Rangers and other Outcasts, who don't seem to always have suits either.
40k novels = pretty fucking dumb. So how'd the tanks get blown into space by one whole atmosphere of pressure? Someone set off their RATO bottles? :V
Good question. Can I blame the Warp if I don't have a better answer?
Even the ship shooting something at them to kill them would be less ridiculous than 'space invading space pirates defeated by being in space'. Maybe because they're dark bondage submissive eldar, they see dying as winning. :lol:
Could be. Of course this being Gav Thorpe I suspect he just doesn't care much about the numbers or technical details - shocking revelation that is, I know - and simply used it as a way to set things up for what followed. Basically the entire scene was to demonstrate how inhumanely fanatical/dedicated that Schaeffer is (Since its his orders that depressurizes the deck) and to get even more Chancers killed horribly (shock and horror factor.) The loss of so many close comrades in turns drove Kage and a number of other Last Chancers to turn on someone they disliked believing he was a traitor working with an Eldar, and kill him brutally. In reality it seems it was just Kage and the others seeking to make sense of the horror and loss and senselessness of their comrade's deaths by seeking a scapegoat.

But, I feel dishonest using out of universe explanations to excuse in universe details (or lack of details.) So I'll go with 'Dark Eldar being psychotic idiots.' since that seems to be their general 'theme' period. That and not being genetically enhanced transhuman supermen.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Aaron MkII »

Yeah Thorpe is more interested in the human drama then realism (Zou has that covered). 40K is like a Hollywood movie anyways, they play fast and loose with that sort of stuff.

Remember The Inquisition War and the Slaanesh guy with three mouths on his dick? That's why I can't do what Conner does, I can't separate intent and fact enough to do math.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Aaron MkII wrote:Yeah Thorpe is more interested in the human drama then realism (Zou has that covered). 40K is like a Hollywood movie anyways, they play fast and loose with that sort of stuff.
Zou is the 'databoxing baen writer' of the lot, although with considerably less political infodumping. I mean Zou's work is literally the only novels in all of 40K where you will have lasguns with picatinny rails. He's not so much 'realism' though, mind.. he did include those '40 kiloton' autocannons :P

Remember The Inquisition War and the Slaanesh guy with three mouths on his dick?
Thankfully no. But there are other bits of the Inquisition War I have NOT forgotten. Or from the Space Marine novel, for that matter :P Crazy shit, but noone could quite manage to pull off that kind of Chaos depiction except perhaps for Ben Counter.

I do remember the obese Chaos cultist who got off on getting pricked by a bull-headed beastman though. And the phallic architecture of Slaaneshi planets. And the particular depiction of daemonettes.

That's why I can't do what Conner does, I can't separate intent and fact enough to do math.
Pfft. Anyone could do the shit I do, given they're willing to waste the time and effort I do on the hobby. There's nothing 'special' about my approach, and I have no special knowledge I haven't acquired in ways others couldn't (By asking questions, paying attention, and picking things up here and there through admittedly piecemeal research.) The math isn't especially complicated either (far less complicated than I probably should try for since (for example).

honestly its something that's come to bug me. Alot of 40kers on places like Spacebattles treat me like I'm some sort of Curtis or Mike when I'm more like Brian in that regard - regular guy who tries to do things in a logical and internally consistent way, and hopefully manages to do so at least some of the time. But I am elevated (or villified) to levels that seem (to me) bizarre simply because of that. It's actually been a big factor in shaping how I present my work and some of the changes I've instituted.

A willingness to resort to solutions other than troping shit also helps :P
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Stark »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Of course this being Gav Thorpe I suspect he just doesn't care much about the numbers or technical details - shocking revelation that is, I know - and simply used it as a way to set things up for what followed.
There's a difference between not obsessing over hard scifi spreadsheets and just having no imagination. Obviously 40k is pretty nonsensical, but what's the point in even trying to 'analyse' something when air pressure pushes tanks into space (I guess it broke their tie-downs too... somehow)? Do you just ignore the obvious re-use of popular and well-understood scifi cliches when you act like the other events of the novels make sense in a physical universe?

Maybe if he was an author instead of painting by numbers he could have had the crew of the ship take a desperate and self-sacrificing action to defeat the invaders while losing their tanks that WASN'T cut directly out of tvtropes. :lol:

Sorry, I keep forgetting 'analysis' in the modern sense means 'post list of out-of-context quotes'. :lol:
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stark wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Of course this being Gav Thorpe I suspect he just doesn't care much about the numbers or technical details - shocking revelation that is, I know - and simply used it as a way to set things up for what followed.
There's a difference between not obsessing over hard scifi spreadsheets and just having no imagination. Obviously 40k is pretty nonsensical, but what's the point in even trying to 'analyse' something when air pressure pushes tanks into space (I guess it broke their tie-downs too... somehow)? Do you just ignore the obvious re-use of popular and well-understood scifi cliches when you act like the other events of the novels make sense in a physical universe?

Ok I think I see what you're saying, but then this just becomes a matter of 'how much bullshit you're willing to put up with to suspend disbelief' and that's obviously going to be variable. We know, for example, that suspensors seem to have some 'mass-reducing' property - not literally, I think, but it just makes it easier to push/move them around - indeed given that the shuttles probably mass hundreds of tons or more, it seems silly that they'd use just thrusters alone to launch them from a hangar (it might be so, but I'd doubt it.) and that's what enabled the dropships to fly out. Sort of like how in Attack of the Clones that Naboo starfighter got blasted off the landing pad by that tiny assassination bomb that utterly failed to kill padme.

Again you ask one person they'll probably say 'its stupid writing' and thats perfectly true, but another will probably have a different view on things. Sorta like on giant robots vs tanks :P
Maybe if he was an author instead of painting by numbers he could have had the crew of the ship take a desperate and self-sacrificing action to defeat the invaders while losing their tanks that WASN'T cut directly out of tvtropes. :lol:
Some 40K authors haven't shaken that unintentionally hilarious fixation on 'grimdark' equalling 'drama and tension.' Gav has some good parts which is where I can see why Aaron likes the stuff, but I do find his grimdarking tiresome after awhile becuase of how repetitive it gets. It's sorta like how boring the 'we kill tonz of filthy Imperials so we're badass' view of CSM gets.

Sorry, I keep forgetting 'analysis' in the modern sense means 'post list of out-of-context quotes'. :lol:
you forgot the biggaton yield inflation man. its SUPPOSED to be about the big numbers, just not the out of context stuff. GIGATONS! :D
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Stark »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Ok I think I see what you're saying, but then this just becomes a matter of 'how much bullshit you're willing to put up with to suspend disbelief' and that's obviously going to be variable. We know, for example, that suspensors seem to have some 'mass-reducing' property - not literally, I think, but it just makes it easier to push/move them around - indeed given that the shuttles probably mass hundreds of tons or more, it seems silly that they'd use just thrusters alone to launch them from a hangar (it might be so, but I'd doubt it.) and that's what enabled the dropships to fly out. Sort of like how in Attack of the Clones that Naboo starfighter got blasted off the landing pad by that tiny assassination bomb that utterly failed to kill padme.

Again you ask one person they'll probably say 'its stupid writing' and thats perfectly true, but another will probably have a different view on things. Sorta like on giant robots vs tanks :P
There's nothing wrong with Flash Gordon stuff, but is it really consistent to say 'lol I don't care how this physically stupid thing happened in this scene a lazy author ripped out of 50s novels' and then say 'the pew pew laser exploded the ultracrete with the force of a thousand washing machines'? At what point does something become so inconsistent that it can no longer have meaningful conclusions drawn from it? This is espeically true in licenced stuff where different authors can have wildly different methods and interpretations; can you really say these different visions really exist side-by-side? Obviously they don't have to in order to be enjoyable or meaningful (the idea of the FICTIONAL UNIVERSE being something most normal people don't care about, like CANONZ) but to speak of 'analysing' '40k' implicitly requires the idea of '40k' to be unified and/or consistent.

Luckily, you don't actually have to analyse anything to enjoy it. Maybe that's why you often don't bother; beyond broad strokes no meaningful conclusions can be drawn.
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Stark wrote:There's nothing wrong with Flash Gordon stuff, but is it really consistent to say 'lol I don't care how this physically stupid thing happened in this scene a lazy author ripped out of 50s novels' and then say 'the pew pew laser exploded the ultracrete with the force of a thousand washing machines'? At what point does something become so inconsistent that it can no longer have meaningful conclusions drawn from it? This is espeically true in licenced stuff where different authors can have wildly different methods and interpretations; can you really say these different visions really exist side-by-side? Obviously they don't have to in order to be enjoyable or meaningful (the idea of the FICTIONAL UNIVERSE being something most normal people don't care about, like CANONZ) but to speak of 'analysing' '40k' implicitly requires the idea of '40k' to be unified and/or consistent.
Honestly, I have no concrete answer. It could very well be I'm wasting my time and 40K really isn't 'internally consistent', but all I can say is 'I don't think it is.' Again this is a matter of what your bullshit tolerance is WRT suspension of disbelief, and what you consider 'plausible' 'realistic' 'consistent' or whatever. In my personal experience its less a matter of 'can I make sense of it', and 'is the way I make sense of it going to cause argument because people dislike my view of what 'makes sense.' Thats one reason I brought up the whole 'tank vs robot' thing, since how it makes 'sense' depends a great deal on the individual perceptions and preconceptions brought to the table. Same with the 'hard' sci fi and 'REALISM' or all the atomic-rockets style arguments over what is REALISTIC in space warfare (lasers vs missiles, is there stealth in space, whatever.)

For whatever its worth, I don't really disagree with what you say, I think the writing can still be shit and yet not be totally 'cartoon physics' inconsistent. POV again, but I've gotten a bit burned out on how often this matter gets treated as an either/or issue by other people - either its ALL SCIENCE or its NO SCIENCE. Hell its even worse in fantasy settings (magic = arbitrary).

That's all I got man.
Luckily, you don't actually have to analyse anything to enjoy it. Maybe that's why you often don't bother; beyond broad strokes no meaningful conclusions can be drawn.
No you don't have to analyze it to enjoy it. I started out doing this with some vague idea I was 'helping' people in some worldbuilding sense, but I ultimately came to realize that was really an excuse. I just wanted to do it and felt that 'because I want to' wasn't good enough, silly as that sounds. Now I just do it because I enjoy it, not because I expect there to be any grand unified consistency from it (which would probably just get overturned with the next edition anyhow. Its happened before.) I do it because its a hobby, and I enjoy the challenge of trying to see if I can figure it out and make it work, and to what extent I can make it work. I don't think I really need it to be anything more than that. :P

Its actually kinda liberating in that way. I don't feel tied down by any particular NEED to conform to some particular bit of canon hiearchy, or one particular way for things to make sense (EG REALISM), so I can play around with things more. Its probably why I've broken out of a purely 'see how much boom this has' mindset too (with the correesponding quote inflation to go with it.) I'm actually interested in other, non exploding aspects too.
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Cykeisme
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Cykeisme »

Two disparate things I'd like to mention.

First thing: does it expressly state that the Last Chancers are all criminals by the Imperium-spanning Imperial Law? Perhaps some of there are also local laws that are only enforced on a planetary level, but breaking those laws means that your local planetary government can brand you a "criminal" and send you off to the Penal Legions as punishment.
I posit that certain types of crimes (murder, rape, major theft) might not be enforced by the Adeptus Arbites for reasons of practicality and indeed the Imperium itself doesn't care because it doesn't affect the larger scale of things... but they're considered serious enough crimes that if a local government so chooses, it can pack them off as penal soldiers or penal labourers.
In so doing, the Imperium gets extra manpower that is even more expendable than normal, planetary governments get a useful and unwasteful way of getting rid of convicts, and maybe it can even unofficially be part of their tithes (sort of like a tax write-off).

Second thing is that yes, 40 ton tanks that should also be secured to the deck of a transport spaceship being ejected out a door just by force of venting the equivalent of normal atmospheric pressure is ridiculous. In fact, I'd say that to properly get rid of space pirates that ought to have either magnetic or physical boots, clamps, hooks, or climbing equipment of some sort would require some sort of acceleration to properly get them out of your space door.
It should have been written so that they either tweaked their artificial gravity to point out the door instead of downward, or they accelerated the ship (either linearly or centripetally, depending on where the bay door is facing) while switching off inertial compensation in the bay to fling its contents out.
Also, it's irrelevant whether the Eldar boarders have pressurized suits or not.. who cares whether they're alive or not if you've thrown them out of your ship?
Clearly Gav Thorpe was imaging Aliens-style incredible super suction venting winds of doom, but I'm curious, how is the actual descriptive passage written?
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
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Stark
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Re: The NEW, revised Last Chancers series analysis thread

Post by Stark »

They could have BLOWN THE SPACE PETROL TANKS or FIRED THE ANTI PIRACY MINES or any number of equally exciting, grim and heartrending things. But that would have required imagination.

Hell, even just saying 'and then we shot them down with AA before they grappelled back into the hangar' would have been awesome. Eldar using their silly space tai chi to regain orientation control and burn back in, only to be chopped up by frangible skull guns? Pretty Flash Gordon!
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