Battlemech sensors v mechs v people

[PainRack]

Could anyone help me on this topic? I was wondering whether modern day IR sensors and other imaging have a.... different 'calibration' of so against tanks and infantry.

Would sensors calibrated against relatively hot running tanks have a different picture quality against infantry? If that is so, I shudder to imagine how Btech IR sensors, with the quality revealed in Mechwarrior would handle infantry.......

[Batman]

Why would infrared sensors need to be calibrated to do so to begin with?

[Ford Prefect]

I was wondering whether modern day IR sensors and other imaging have a.... different 'calibration' of so against tanks and infantry.

They don't.

There is a contrast knob though :v

[Stark]

Because the 'useful' ranges to detect a tank and a man are different (given different temperature, emissivity etc) and in btech it's probably all done automatically as a part of sensor fusion, you could just handwave it as contextual.

But then you could say it'd do infantry sweeps automatically every now and then and pop the external anti-personnel mines, but y'know.

[weemadando]

Most of the time you're looking for differential between the background and things that are different temperatures than the background. Like people. And vehicles.

Most let you swap between white hot or black hot on the display. And it's not just pure black and white, there's a gray scale that it uses.

[PainRack]

So, a setting that would offer the picture quality we see in Mechs would probably not be of sufficient... contrast/differentiation to detect humans?

[Gunhead]

So, a setting that would offer the picture quality we see in Mechs would probably not be of sufficient... contrast/differentiation to detect humans?

Depends on the quality of the scope, distance, terrain and weather conditions. Then there are possible IR diffusion systems in place. Mostly it's set so you get a picture clear enough so identify the type of the vehicle your looking at and the rough sub category. I.e It's a MBT, it's an IFV, it's an APC etc. This will allow you to spot infantry too. Then you can flip the gray scale around which sometimes gives more information on the target. You can fool around with the adjustments more if you know specifically what you're looking for. When spotting, you cannot ignore the importance of identification either. But here the focus is more geared towards vehicles. When it comes to infantry you just want to know where they are where as with vehicles knowing what kind it is, is more important.

-Gunhead

[Cykeisme]

Random semi-relevant question.. how hot exactly are BattleMechs? What kind of surface temperatures can we expect on the armored surfaces, and what about the air around the vents on their heat sinks, when a 'Mech is running hot?

I would expect IR to be incredibly important in combat between vehicles where waste heat is a major issue, because it provides important tactical information that's very useful when fighting other 'Mechs. There's tons of computer games, novels and other books for the RPGs and various wargames, etc.. maybe there's been an offhand mention of external temperature somewhere?

[Nephtys]

In the new Mechwarrior online, a laser hit turns the armor plate it was focused to a bright, luminescent glow. Almost like if it was literally melted or slagged.

That's... a lot of heat.

[Stark]

Worst source or worst source ever?

Their surface temp can't be that high because they can cool by walking into water without falling down from the steam explosions. Their signature probably changes significantly as they move and shoot anyway. I'm not really sure why you'd use thermal to spot the 15m walking helicopter, however, especially when practical engagement range is so short.

If their IR sight can provide useful information by measuring movement of heat around a known robit's profile, you'd think it could calculate lead too.

[PainRack]

Random semi-relevant question.. how hot exactly are BattleMechs? What kind of surface temperatures can we expect on the armored surfaces, and what about the air around the vents on their heat sinks, when a 'Mech is running hot?

I would expect IR to be incredibly important in combat between vehicles where waste heat is a major issue, because it provides important tactical information that's very useful when fighting other 'Mechs. There's tons of computer games, novels and other books for the RPGs and various wargames, etc.. maybe there's been an offhand mention of external temperature somewhere?

It depends on how much you trust fluff art, which is problematic on its own. Mechs wading into pools cause steam clouds, which is repeated as fluff, but the pictures of mechs being wreathed in steam is of doubtful canonicity. There's also hyperbolic statements about a hot Masakari, but that source itself is of dubious canonicity since its not even BattleTechnology.

If you run it by math, it runs into consistency problems because infantry can survive swarming Battlemechs. This even though a simple anti infantry technique should had been to simply fire a couple of PPCs and then dump mech coolant . On the other hand, there's the Mechwarrior cockpit reach temperatures of 40 Celsius or more. That last bit is probably the only thing there that's been quoted as numbers, outside of the Mech using ten kelvin per 1 heat point.

[Stark]

You know what else is a 'simple anti infantry technique'?



How much sense does saying '1 heat point = 10 kelvin' make anyway? 10 kelvin... where? If its at heat sink surface (imagine no armour lol) why don't they set forests on fire just by standing there?

[Simon_Jester]

Worst source or worst source ever?

Their surface temp can't be that high because they can cool by walking into water without falling down from the steam explosions. Their signature probably changes significantly as they move and shoot anyway. I'm not really sure why you'd use thermal to spot the 15m walking helicopter, however, especially when practical engagement range is so short.

It would probably only matter in the dark. And hey, seeing the other guy from ten miles away helps, even if you can't engage them from ten miles away.

If their IR sight can provide useful information by measuring movement of heat around a known robit's profile, you'd think it could calculate lead too.

Could also give you information about power output, location of hot components (weapons that require cooling, reactors...)

[Batman]

There's dark, and there's dark. Thermal's definitely useful, but light amplification should work just dandy in most situations too. And I think what Stark is trying to say here is that if their IR (and by extension, their electronics) are capable of doing that, they should be able to, well, calculate lead, especially give the pretty damned tiny (infinitesimal to nonexistant for lasers/PPC) lead required to achieve hits at the ranges involved.

[Stark]

Its kind of lame to use 'they're dumb' in a scifi discussion, but Btech really does have fire control computers that weigh several tons and struggle to hit at very short range with lasers. It can be dangerous to be to logical about what they 'should' be able to do given they have 100t walking robots and fusion plants.

I mean, flechette mines are clearly beyond them for defending their most important assets against infantry, to the point that people would waste coolant (or carry an otherwise useless flamer that may explode) to deal with them.

[Cykeisme]

Actually, btech does have leg-mounted flechette mines that kill all the nearby infantry when triggered.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Anti-Personnel_Pod

Why don't all their battlemechs carry them?
Because like targeting computers, they weigh ridiculous amounts, of course!

[Stark]

Man I totally forgot the pods! Aren't they like 500kilos or something, and do no damage to anything but infantry? Its a shame since the Btech game doesn't have any way to represent disposable gear, there doesn't seem to be any in the fiction. Why jettison your missile pods when you can just reload them by magic from the other side of the robot, after all?

[PainRack]

You know what else is a 'simple anti infantry technique'?

Except that this works repeatedly, and is literally on all the time when the mech is running hot.

How much sense does saying '1 heat point = 10 kelvin' make anyway? 10 kelvin... where? If its at heat sink surface (imagine no armour lol) why don't they set forests on fire just by standing there?

None whatsoever. I pointed this out before on the forum, all this means is that we know the heat scale is calibrated to a thermometer that goes up by 10 degrees..... it was back when Thanatos was debating on SFJ against someone who was trying to use the cockpit=40 degrees and thus trying to calculate energy via the mech heating up ......Sheer absurdity....

Man I totally forgot the pods! Aren't they like 500kilos or something, and do no damage to anything but infantry? Its a shame since the Btech game doesn't have any way to represent disposable gear, there doesn't seem to be any in the fiction. Why jettison your missile pods when you can just reload them by magic from the other side of the robot, after all?

The A-pods are disposable. So are the new Rocket Launchers. Hell, so are Elemental SRMs........... Its just not represented in gameplay.

Its kind of lame to use 'they're dumb' in a scifi discussion, but Btech really does have fire control computers that weigh several tons and struggle to hit at very short range with lasers. It can be dangerous to be to logical about what they 'should' be able to do given they have 100t walking robots and fusion plants.

The targeting computers include the actuator controls and shit that lock the mechs weapons on target. Something important if the mech weapons is to actually achieve sufficient damage to cause ablation of the armour.

[Stark]

Except that this works repeatedly, and is literally on all the time when the mech is running hot.

My point is that it obviously isn't, and wasting coolant to kill infantry is almost certainly more wasteful than a few submunitions. Its like saying tanks don't need close defense systems because they can just spill some diesel out the back and set it on fire.

The targeting computers include the actuator controls and shit that lock the mechs weapons on target. Something important if the mech weapons is to actually achieve sufficient damage to cause ablation of the armour.

The weapons can already move (and are often mounted on arms). How could a ton of actuators in the centre torso make a difference, and if you're willing to ignore that as an abstraction, why not just throw out the whole idea of 'targeting computers' or 'hitpoints'? Why is it called a 'computer' if its really a series of actuators? How do you think it makes it less retarded if the 'computer' includes a laundry list of things the weapons should have had anyway?

The targeting computer is really one of the best examples of bad fluff leading to bad rules which lead to even more bad fluff - it 'solves' a problem that only existed because people took the original rules way too literally. Explanations for why the lead calculations (which the pilot's watch could probably perform) can't be separate from the ton of 'recoil compensators' (recoil a big problem for lasers, just like lead!) are not forthcoming.

[PainRack]

My point is that it obviously isn't, and wasting coolant to kill infantry is almost certainly more wasteful than a few submunitions. Its like saying tanks don't need close defense systems because they can just spill some diesel out the back and set it on fire.

Ok... Let's ignore the fact that I'm talking about what will happen in reality, and not what is used in Btech. Mechs don't flush coolant to take out infantry.

However, based on the existing data about mech energy weapons, all that would had been required to stop a swarm attack would had been to simply dump waste heat into the environment. There's nothing "wasteful" about this because this IS how mechs get rid of waste heat.

Coolant trucks, better known as "coolers" among MechWarriors, station themselves close to the battlefield, where they can be hooked up to heated 'Mechs for the purpose of flushing away the excess heat with super-cold liquid nitrogen.

A 'Mech has two uses for liquid nitrogen. The first is as a coolant for its reactors. In most 'Mechs, a twin-jacketed fusion core is insulated by a surrounding reservoir of liquid nitrogen. This nitrogen is kept in circulation to keep the heat of the reactor within performance norms. As the 'Mech exerts more energy, its heat rises, which causes the liquid nitrogen to expand to dangerous pressures. Sensing this rise in pressure, the control system will vent a portion of the nitrogen into the air until the pressure falls. If a pilot is forced to do this several times, his 'Mech is also losing precious coolant in the process. To prevent a shutdown or explosion the MechWarrior of a severely overheating 'Mech will retire from the battle and move to the coolers standing by. Once attached to the truck the lukewarm nitrogen is flushed from the 'Mechs reservoir and replaced with cold nitrogen.

A BattleMech also uses nitrogen to cool other of its parts. By diverting a portion of the liquid through tubes called "arteries", the liquid is spread throughout the 'Mechs structure. In this way, it cools other hot spots that may occur at the various actuators in the missile system, and so forth.

The weapons can already move (and are often mounted on arms). How could a ton of actuators in the centre torso make a difference, and if you're willing to ignore that as an abstraction, why not just throw out the whole idea of 'targeting computers' or 'hitpoints'? Why is it called a 'computer' if its really a series of actuators? How do you think it makes it less retarded if the 'computer' includes a laundry list of things the weapons should have had anyway?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Targeting_computer
Recoil compensators and gyroscopic stabilizers are used to prevent normal weapon drift from factors such as recoil and movement while the computer accounts for atmospheric and other conditions to present an accurate "lead" on the target.
And as presented here before, the system works as advertised. Mech armour was ALWAYS presented as protecting the mech by conducting heat away and deflecting shots, the current description you see in Sarna was an attempt to rationalise this within the game system of armour ablation/hitpoints.

The targeting computer is really one of the best examples of bad fluff leading to bad rules which lead to even more bad fluff - it 'solves' a problem that only existed because people took the original rules way too literally. Explanations for why the lead calculations (which the pilot's watch could probably perform) can't be separate from the ton of 'recoil compensators' (recoil a big problem for lasers, just like lead!) are not forthcoming.

Bad fluff leading to bad rules leading to even more bad fluff? Say what? Look. Battletech ALREADY has an active T&T system... The Lancelot superior systems give it a better tracking system that was incorporated into House rules for example.

What they did was that they wanted a system to play around with the existing rules for making aimed shots, so, they created one.
The fluff existed purely to support the mechanism for working within this system. If anything, its the OTHER way around. The rules existed which needed fluff.


So, how are you approaching this? Are you critising the system as a whole? Or are you just criticising the fluff?

[Cykeisme]

Meh, they're explicitly referred to as "targeting computers". How would gyroscopic stabilizers or recoil compensation mechanisms help weapons that are on the opposite side of the machine, anyway? You can put it in on one side of the machine, and have it work on weapons in an arm on the opposite side, how does that make sense?

If they'd called it "targeting systems" or something more generic, and it was split into different parts that each had to go into the same location alongside the weapon they're enhancing, then the while "stabilizer/recoil compensator" thing would make sense.

As it is, we're canonically dealing with multi-ton computers here.

[Stark]

Ok... Let's ignore the fact that I'm talking about what will happen in reality, and not what is used in Btech. Mechs don't flush coolant to take out infantry.

However, based on the existing data about mech energy weapons, all that would had been required to stop a swarm attack would had been to simply dump waste heat into the environment. There's nothing "wasteful" about this because this IS how mechs get rid of waste heat.

So you're basically talking about your Btech-themed fanfiction? If the 'waste heat' radiated from a PPC shot killed people within a 10m radius, the universe might not be so terrible. However, it'd be hard to justify this given the poor performance of PPCs.

Its okay to waste coolant because... you can get more? Practical!

And as presented here before, the system works as advertised. Mech armour was ALWAYS presented as protecting the mech by conducting heat away and deflecting shots, the current description you see in Sarna was an attempt to rationalise this within the game system of armour ablation/hitpoints.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it less stupid. Its like saying installing some servos in the boot of a humvee will make the RWS work better and ignoring that the RWS is supposed to do all that stuff anyway. Why can't fusion-powered giant robots calculate lead again? Why could a putative IR system identify a robot by its heat layout or monitor its weapon usage through analysis of its signature when it can't perform far more simple tasks without an addon?

Thanks for ignoring all the questions and just reposting something I'd already read, though.

Bad fluff leading to bad rules leading to even more bad fluff? Say what? Look. Battletech ALREADY has an active T&T system... The Lancelot superior systems give it a better tracking system that was incorporated into House rules for example.

What they did was that they wanted a system to play around with the existing rules for making aimed shots, so, they created one.
The fluff existed purely to support the mechanism for working within this system. If anything, its the OTHER way around. The rules existed which needed fluff.

So, how are you approaching this? Are you critising the system as a whole? Or are you just criticising the fluff?

Dude, its a miniatures game. Accuracy is bad because otherwise its a SHORT miniatures game. They made up fluff for their 'shoot better at cost of xyz' buff that is pretty stupid, and then just ran with it, and led to even more hackish rules around targeting which required ever dumber fluff. Tell me how you need 'actuators' to use a targeting computer on missiles, since they always emerge from their launcher at the same orientation? Its almost like its simply providing information and the rest of the fluff is a bandaid to cover that the build system requires every benefit to have a cost!

Frankly, the idea of Btech mechs constantly causing super-hot overpressure waves with 'waste heat' is so tragic it makes me think you're a fantasist.

[Cykeisme]

Tell me how you need 'actuators' to use a targeting computer on missiles, since they always emerge from their launcher at the same orientation?

Ha, jokes on you, Stark, according to the wiki link, the "targeting computers" in btech don't affect missiles!

Incidentally, there is an add-on that makes missiles better in some way:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Artemis_IV_FCS
It's a laser designator and a microwave transmitter that weighs one ton.
And you need a separate one ton piece of this equipment added on to each separate missile rack you have, even if they're ostensibly firing the same type of missile!

In one way, it makes sense in a way the targeting computer could have: for the Artemis missile add-on, you put a one ton chunk of gear into each separate location where each missile rack was located.
If the "targeting computer" had the same rules (split into same locations where the direct-fire weapons are), then "recoil compensators" and "gyro stabilizers" would actually make sense.

[Stark]

Sorry, I was just looking at Sarna and I misread LB-X as LRM. Things like the Artemis system (and even the C3 system) make waaaay more sense than their direct fire systems. But then, miniatures game, not fire control system simulator. Its just where the rules take the fluff that's sad.

And the TC controls x tons of gun per ton depending on faction. It's just bizarre the way they describe what they do to provide the increased accuracy over the standard 'point arms at guy manually' approach. Hand wave movement stabilisation all you want; missing with a laser at 500m is just silly, and expecting a fire control system that can't do stuff like that to do IR analysis is p strange.

It's amusing that the whole silly fluff retcon for 'Madcat' suggests the sensors do some kind of analysis. :v

[PainRack]

So you're basically talking about your Btech-themed fanfiction? If the 'waste heat' radiated from a PPC shot killed people within a 10m radius, the universe might not be so terrible. However, it'd be hard to justify this given the poor performance of PPCs.

Its okay to waste coolant because... you can get more? Practical!

Except that it has nothing to do with "wasting" coolant. Its just the NORM of operating a mech. Just run the mech hot firing against some other targets and then vent the heat.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it less stupid. Its like saying installing some servos in the boot of a humvee will make the RWS work better and ignoring that the RWS is supposed to do all that stuff anyway. Why can't fusion-powered giant robots calculate lead again? Why could a putative IR system identify a robot by its heat layout or monitor its weapon usage through analysis of its signature when it can't perform far more simple tasks without an addon?

Thanks for ignoring all the questions and just reposting something I'd already read, though.

And your assumption that they can't calculate lead is based on what again?
And who's the one that's taking game mechanics literally now?

Dude, its a miniatures game. Accuracy is bad because otherwise its a SHORT miniatures game. They made up fluff for their 'shoot better at cost of xyz' buff that is pretty stupid, and then just ran with it, and led to even more hackish rules around targeting which required ever dumber fluff. Tell me how you need 'actuators' to use a targeting computer on missiles, since they always emerge from their launcher at the same orientation? Its almost like its simply providing information and the rest of the fluff is a bandaid to cover that the build system requires every benefit to have a cost!

Frankly, the idea of Btech mechs constantly causing super-hot overpressure waves with 'waste heat' is so tragic it makes me think you're a fantasist.

Dude.... The fucking point is that I don't understand the damn THRUST of your statement.

Bad fluff leads to bad rules lead to even more bad fluff?

WHAT FLUFF? The whole point was they wanted a rule, which CREATED the fluff. Unless you're literally taking the House rules for the Clint, Lancelot and assuming non tournament rules led to the targeting computer rule which led further to additional fluff.

And lastly, thanks for being an idiot. Super hot overpressure wave? That's YOUR description of it. My argument was that they could simply vent the damn coolant into the air and because of the hot nature of it, literally scorch off the swarming infantry soldiers who are wearing nothing more than gloves and their cloth uniforms. Lol fuck. Again, if we run it by math, the physics issues of how a certain female commando could run along a moving Battlemech and plant satchels in the midst of combat dressed in nothing more than her ordinary clothes beggar belief.....

And the TC controls x tons of gun per ton depending on faction. It's just bizarre the way they describe what they do to provide the increased accuracy over the standard 'point arms at guy manually' approach. Hand wave movement stabilisation all you want; missing with a laser at 500m is just silly, and expecting a fire control system that can't do stuff like that to do IR analysis is p strange.

........ And of course, you can once again believe that the TC and weapons systems are manually aimed, overwriting all the fluff since day one of Battletech(I won't presume to speak for Battledroids).

Waitaminute........ you're literally assuming that the TC sole function is to calculate lead time? This even though the fluff explicitly says that what the TC does is lock your weapons on the target including the lead?????

eh, they're explicitly referred to as "targeting computers". How would gyroscopic stabilizers or recoil compensation mechanisms help weapons that are on the opposite side of the machine, anyway? You can put it in on one side of the machine, and have it work on weapons in an arm on the opposite side, how does that make sense?

If they'd called it "targeting systems" or something more generic, and it was split into different parts that each had to go into the same location alongside the weapon they're enhancing, then the while "stabilizer/recoil compensator" thing would make sense.

As it is, we're canonically dealing with multi-ton computers here.

Errr...... So what? TIE solar panels anyone?
And this is literally a case of taking things too literal in terms of game mechanics. The critical slot placement has been abstract and confirmed ever since Max Tech talked about how lighter mechs should have had less critical slots due to their smaller frames......