NJO force sub Tyranids

[StarSword]

Because we did it the other direction already.

Replace the Praetorite Vong with a Tyranid splinter fleet and the full invasion force with a hive fleet.

[gigabytelord]

Which setting? Post or pre-Galactic Empire?

Because from what I've heard whatever happens is based entirely on which setting we're going with here, I mean are you just replacing the Vong with the Nids in the timeline? If so I can personally see a very similar outcome, albeit much more bloody, i.e. SW wins once they get their shit together.

And as far as FTL capability goes, and you know someone is going bring it up, speed calcs for the Nid' FTL are all over the frick'n place so that's anybodies guess, and of course the Nids win on the ground.

[StarSword]

Which setting? Post or pre-Galactic Empire?

Considering I said NJO in the thread title, I think we're putting it in the Rakata era. Of course post-Empire.

[Vehrec]

The Tyranids are too slow, and don't have a hyperspace interdiction field to defend against lightning raids with. They'll be cut to ribbons.

[Ahriman238]

Hmmm, Tyranid FTL figures are indeed all over the place, but IIRC are broadly comparable to the IoM. That makes them slower than Wars, but it's more like the difference between crossing the galaxy in a year or two as opposed to the month or so it would take the NR.

The NR is screwed on the ground, but space will be a different story. The real question is how many 'Nid ships they are, what sort of Hive Fleet we're talking about.

[Simon_Jester]

The other question is, will the New Republic act fast enough to punch out Tyranid 'assembly areas,' or will they have excessive time to build up strength while munching on the Outer Rim before the Republic military shows up to do anything about it?

[gigabytelord]

Hmmm, Tyranid FTL figures are indeed all over the place, but IIRC are broadly comparable to the IoM. That makes them slower than Wars, but it's more like the difference between crossing the galaxy in a year or two as opposed to the month or so it would take the NR.

agreed

The NR is screwed on the ground, but space will be a different story. The real question is how many 'Nid ships they are, what sort of Hive Fleet we're talking about.

I think the OP needs to clarify a few things here, because the unlike the Vong, the Nid invasion hasn't stopped, Hive fleets are still arriving and from what is shown in cannon each one is apparently larger and more powerful than the last.

There is also the known fact that the Vong send scouts ahead of their main fleet, these scouts proceeded to sow the seeds for conflict among major SW powers, and this combined with confusion, lack interest (at first) and the out right incompetence that local military leaders demonstrated early in the war allowed them to cause much more damage than would have otherwise been the case.

The main problem I see, is that from our perspective (not in universe of course) the Vong are a known quantity, the Nids on the other hand aren't by their very nature.

[Vehrec]

We know enough about the Tyranids to say that it takes 100 days or so for them to NOM a planet, including about a month of doing nothing buy flying into the system from it's edges.

'Nids are slow, way to slow to be a valid threat, unless they have an entire galaxy's worth of bioforms to throw at the NR.

[Simon_Jester]

If 40k is to be believed... they do.

And yet they are still running from something.

[Stark]

No, they have a splinter fleet and a hive fleet as per the OP.

[Simon_Jester]

[eyes cross]

Ah. Right. Sorry.

In that case, the Republic wins unless they give the 'Nids a long, long time to build up on the periphery without interference.

[StarSword]

I think the OP needs to clarify a few things here, because the unlike the Vong, the Nid invasion hasn't stopped, Hive fleets are still arriving and from what is shown in cannon each one is apparently larger and more powerful than the last.

Trouble is, I know more or less the basics of 40k (never played, never read the codexes; most of what I know comes out of the novels, chiefly Ciaphas Cain, and TV Tropes).

My feeling for the hive fleet was something of the scale of Kraken, since AFAIK that was the first one sighted in the 40k galaxy.

There is also the known fact that the Vong send scouts ahead of their main fleet, these scouts proceeded to sow the seeds for conflict among major SW powers, and this combined with confusion, lack interest (at first) and the out right incompetence that local military leaders demonstrated early in the war allowed them to cause much more damage than would have otherwise been the case.

Genestealer cults do much the same thing from what I've read. 'Course, I think it takes longer.

[gigabytelord]

Ok, I'm having trouble seeing the point of this match. I'm going to assume that those of us who are familiar with the two universes in question are fully aware of the handicaps that the Nids suffer from i.e. slow FTL, squishy in space, etc... therefore any match that places them in a one on one toe to toe fight against a force like the NR means they will lose, period.

Are the Nids' just going to beeline directly for a major world and therefore gain the ire of the entire galaxy?
Or are they going to do what what we see them do in cannon? Which is to go in a straight line eating every piece of organic matter in their path, whether it be an inhabited world or not?
Eating, dying, reproducing, eating, dying, reproducing... as the hive fleet becomes bigger and bigger with every world it devours, it splits off into more and more splinter fleets spreading throughout the galaxy like a snake with a thousand heads.

All the while the major powers of the galaxy him-haw around wringing their hands, and waiting for some one else to take care of the problem until it's to late.

Does the fleet come in through the unknown regions? If so then there you go, the perfect place to establish a foothold and spread without drawing the attention of the IR or the NR.

I have an idea, lets start over.

Say Hive fleets Kraken enters the galaxy via the unknown regions, they move through these regions eating what they run into, using this added mass to grow and spread, constantly adapting and changing to meet new threats, and eventually because some one either goes running for help or they decide to advance deeper into the galactic center now they come into conflict with the NR the IR and others.

Just pitting them against an obviously militarily superior foe is both suicidal and something that the Nids themselves would likely try to avoid. Yes they are animals, but highly intelligent animals.

[Batman]

A technologically obviously militarily superior foe. I think one of the points of this scenario (or at the very least one I'd have considered if it were mine) is can the New Republic as per NJO deal with the Nids. Technologically, the Vong would have been a pushover too.
The question isn't can Wars technology kick the Nids back to wherever they came from (which in space, it can). It's are the morons in charge of the New Republic as of the NJO capable of seeing to that this is done.

[gigabytelord]

A technologically obviously militarily superior foe. I think one of the points of this scenario (or at the very least one I'd have considered if it were mine) is can the New Republic as per NJO deal with the Nids. Technologically, the Vong would have been a pushover too.
The question isn't can Wars technology kick the Nids back to wherever they came from (which in space, it can). It's are the morons in charge of the New Republic as of the NJO capable of seeing to that this is done.

That's exactly what I was wondering, as a simple fleet vs fleet scenario would be pointless and we all know would win.
The evidence says that no the NR would not be able to deal with the issue properly simply because they're all idiots, they have the technology but not the will power (at least the NR that existed at the beginning of the Vong wars), but that seems to easy as well .

How about this, I remember some one pointing out that the Nids can absorb the genetic strengths of their enemies (unless this has been retcon'd I haven't read any of the newest books), so would it be theoretically possible for them to, say, discover the force and learn how to use it by say happening upon a planet of force sensitives and then eating them.

I remember reading some where about a race that used the force to travel through hyperspace, again it's just a thought, a really scary one, but just a thought none the less.

[Batman]

The link between Force sensitivity and genetics is-muddled, at best. It's obviously occasionally hereditary (the Skywalkers and the Horn family come to mind) but I don't think we have a large enough a sample base to say it is regularly so (especially with the the OR Jedi 'no family ties' idiocy ensuring there wouldn't be).

[gigabytelord]

The link between Force sensitivity and genetics is-muddled, at best. It's obviously occasionally hereditary (the Skywalkers and the Horn family come to mind) but I don't think we have a large enough a sample base to say it is regularly so (especially with the the OR Jedi 'no family ties' idiocy ensuring there wouldn't be).

So basically that's a great big "IF" and since I don't care for ifs I'm not going to push it unless the introduction of new evidence tells me otherwise.

Now assuming the Nids were smart and went for the unknown regions, I wonder just how long would they be able to gorge themselves and get entrenched before some one with a big stick comes knocking.

Of course there's the issue of actually getting to them if that's where they go as the unknown regions tend to play havoc with SW hyperdrives.

[Jub]

The Vong would have been crushed if they didn't have the black hole shields/weapons which allowed them to win the first few space engagements and after that was worked around space battles became relatively easy matters for the New Republic. The Nids are worse off in space than the Vong ever were so they're going to be absolutely crushed in space battles. They also have slower and less effective infiltrators so it seems unlikely they'll have the government as confused as what we saw in NJO.

[SystemError]

Moreover, the Tyranids aren't vaguely humanoid in the same way the Yuuzhan Vong were. It's been almost a decade since I've read the relevant books, so someone with more familiarity with the NJO might correct me about this, but a major reason for the New Republic's incompetence in dealing with the invaders was ethical in nature: I recall that the Republic had developed a viral bio-weapon that could have ended the invasion, but hesitated to use it (and eventually decided not to). The Tyranids, on the other hand, are much less morally problematic - they're a pest invasion, to be wiped out at leisure.

[Jub]

The same would go for Anakin Solo and his reluctance to use Centerpoint as a weapon. It also means that the Jedi wouldn't face the issues they did and would be more fully able to assist in the effort.

[Connor MacLeod]

Before everything starts degenerating into arguments over whose canon says what and what capabilities each side will have or not have or shit, we should address that whole praetorite vong thing - the Vong's infiltration and subversion efforts extended for well over half a century before the actual invasion took place. How exactly is that supposed to be dealt with in the Tyranids' case? There's lots of ways they can infiltrate shit, but the outcomes of such would hardly be the same as what the Vong did, depending on your sources and shit.

[Jub]

It's hard to say, there are a few things that we know with some certainty though.

One is that given the slower FTL speeds the Tyranid fleet would have to be a lot closer to galactic disk in order to get their infiltrators in. That might mean that long range sensing stations like the one that ended up picking up the Vong fleet might pick the Tyranids up before they're within striking range. It's not a sure thing by any stretch but it has to be considered.

Second is that it's a certainty that the Tyranids wouldn't move as fast in taking worlds as the Vong did. This will surely effect the New Republic's ability to respond even if Tyranid infiltration succeeds in causing a similar level of delay as the Vong managed. The decreased immediate threat also means that it's unlikely that things get as bad politically simply due to their being less stress placed on all involved.

How these two factors, as well as the less easily defined infiltration tactics and initial entry vector, are going to make this a hard scenario to call unless we hash out how we expect certain things to go.

[Connor MacLeod]

Which method of warp travel are you actually going with? There's warp travel (the old way) and the Narvhal, which came up in 5th edition. and no, you can't say 'retcon', because 40K does not work that way (in fact we have no idea how it works, because there's no frigging canon.) I suppose you could try to break this up into editions or whatever, but there's no nice, neat vs-oriented way to oversimplify this, and trust me, there's a pretty frigging WIDE range of Tactics the 'Nids are known to draw upon (up to and including diplomacy, although this is largely confined to the earlier iterations, like when the Zoats were still around.)

I would also appreciate it if we can avoid breaking this down into a few key 'CORNERSTONES' of debate that dictate instant victory. We're not dealing with massively lopsided forces here, they're at least potentially equal, although depending on how the actual numbers pan out its possible the 'Nids could win despite 'greater FTL speed'

Edit: For that matter, are we basing the Tyranid forces off 'general' numbers (splinter fleet is like tens or hundreds IIRC, and Hive fleets are like millions of ships) or are we talking 'specific' hive fleets? If its the latter the numbers can be quite variable. Hive fleet behemoth for example was thousands of ships (not more specific than that) whilst Leviathan is supposed to be massively larger than any other force up to now (as in its attacking 3 or so segmentum simultaneously IIRC.)

[Jub]

Warp travel is an area I know less about than you would, but to the best of my knowledge in sector travel seems to take between days and weeks for the Imperium. I don't know how much faster or slower the Tyranids would be, but I'd bet they'd have more consistent travel times than the Imperium. There's also the fact that depending on what the state of the Warp is the Star Wars galaxy they could well have the faster FTL travel times.

I also know that the Nids aren't just the mass 'human wave' style foes that they seem to get depicted as. They could try to topple a sector with a gene stealer cult by getting people into positions of power, or they could start Tyranoforming the lower levels of a city world like Coruscant, or they could just lay down beacons and lead the hive fleet in for a straight up battle.

I'm not trying to find an I win button for either side, I'm just trying to set down a few things that sprung to mind as potential factors that could play a role based on my knowledge of the forces involved. It's way more interesting to find out how the different factors change things than to try and leap straight into side x wins because of y.

[Connor MacLeod]

Warp travel is an area I know less about than you would, but to the best of my knowledge in sector travel seems to take between days and weeks for the Imperium. I don't know how much faster or slower the Tyranids would be, but I'd bet they'd have more consistent travel times than the Imperium. There's also the fact that depending on what the state of the Warp is the Star Wars galaxy they could well have the faster FTL travel times.

Warp travel is incredibly variable. We have some 'rough' indicators, but even those can be contradictory. For example the Eisenhorn novels (by same author) indicate warp travel between adjacent systems within a sector or subsector can take days (hundreds of c to a few thousand c) whilst travel between sectors (within a segmentum, eg Scarus to Cadia) can take months, which can be tens of thousands to a few hundred thousand c minimum.) And its deliberately variable because the medium they travel through - the warp - is supposed to be hell and randomness mixed up. There could be reasons for why this all is tied up in psychic shit and belief, but as of yet I onyl have vague speculation and theory as to how that mechanism, goes. all we know is 'that shit be variable'.

If you want a 'proof' baesd example there was this from 6th edition's core rules

Page 405

note the logbook of the Proxxian traders that operate in the Nephilim sector. They primarily transport forced labour from the hive world of Proxx to the isolated mining colonies of Hephastian, approximately three times each Terran year. The distance is dozens of light years and requires a fleet to traverse the Immaterium. The route is anything but predictable, despite being classed as a semi-fluctuating passage (the most stable rating). Typical voyages range between one and six weeks, but the more extreme journeys have taken as much as 1,200 years and as little as two minutes. Some 22% of expeditions have, as of yet, not arrived at their destination - although given the time disparity, one can only estimate what percentage have been lost and which are still en route. In distance, this is a relatively short voyage example;the numbers only grow worse with longer journeys.

I also know that the Nids aren't just the mass 'human wave' style foes that they seem to get depicted as. They could try to topple a sector with a gene stealer cult by getting people into positions of power, or they could start Tyranoforming the lower levels of a city world like Coruscant, or they could just lay down beacons and lead the hive fleet in for a straight up battle.

Well if you look at the various 'hive fleets' depicted (either on the wikis or in the codexes alone, nevermind te novels.) you tend to get some widely variable (and even inconsistent) depictions of tactics and capabilities. IT can even get complicated because the Tyranids will sometimes fight THEMSELVES - hive fleet trying to destory hive fleet. In theory this seems like its counter-productive, but it makes some sense from the Tyranids' DArwinina POV - it forces the individual fleets to adapt and evolve to win, and the one who defeats the other becomes a bigger force, acquires all the 'advantages' the defeated force has, and probably has learned new shit on top of it.

If we're dealing with a Behemoth-style Hive Fleet invasion in total, then the greater FTL speed and communications become a huge advantage in coordinating and defeating the force, even if its larger. But if they try something sneakier (like Kraken or LEviathan) or do something unpredictable like Jormungandr.

I wouldn't rule ou the ability of the Tyranids to fuck with Hyperdrive either. Given that they have large scale gravitic manipulation fuckery via the Narvahl, they may figure out some way to interdict Star Wars ships. Considering that the Narvahl's side effects involve screwing around with a whole system's gravity (and fucking up things on those planets, I'll have to go dig out the description for exact effects.) the whole 'slow speed' may not actually be an advantage if its possible that they, for example - seal off the entire system from FTL access (like the whole Centerpoint situation.)

Indeed IF it were possible for Narvahl's to do as I said above, then a Kraken style invasion might be very difficult to counteract, at least until the Tyranids arrive in-system. And if we add the INFILTRATION element, and give them similar timescales as the Praetorite Vong has, that opens a whole new level of complexity, especially depending on how that infiltration takes place (Are we talking Genestealers, or Lictors/hormagaunts, or referencing the earlier 'zoat'-era shit, or maybe a combination of the above?)

I'm not trying to find an I win button for either side, I'm just trying to set down a few things that sprung to mind as potential factors that could play a role based on my knowledge of the forces involved. It's way more interesting to find out how the different factors change things than to try and leap straight into side x wins because of y.

My main problem si with the infiltration angle. That's a huge problem because the Vong's purported presence int he Star Wars system is some five decades, and its hard to predict actually what influence (if any) they may have had and how bad they fucked things up. I remember hearing they had some hand in bringing about the Empire's downfall (and possibly the REpublic) and we know from the Crimson Empire 2 shit that Nom Anor was fucking around with the post-Endor Empire to topple that as well. Given that alone its hard to predict how the Tyranids would do in that situation with any accuracy, over that timescale, or even what the course of events 'unmodified' in STar Wars would result in.

tl;dr there's just alot omre 'what ifs' than certanties, and yet many of these discussions invariably degenerate into purported 'certainties' - like FTL is instantly decisive, or the Tyranids will attack in one certain way but no othrs, or the SW side is going to figure out immediately they need to start mass producing droidspams to drown their enemies in metal, or something. Shit like that may be acceptable if you're dealing with some sort of obsessive or ignorant or dishonest 'vs' nerds or in cases where there are deliberately lopsided situations, but they hardly count as 'normal' responses either, even though people often think they do.