(RAR) Fix Mega City One

[FaxModem1]

By Act of Q, you are made sole leader of the Judges of Mega City One, and asked by Q to try and make Mega City One a better place, since clearly the Judges themselves are failing at it.

What would you do to make Mega City One a better place?

[Lord Revan]

first question comes to mind if I have unlimited resources or do I have to make due with what my predecessor(s) got?

since IIRC it's not that the judges want megacity to a criminal infested craphole but they simply don't have the resources to enforce the law effectively.

[FaxModem1]

You have what your predecessors have, but you are the equivalent of the Judge Council, so you can rewrite the law as you see fit, so for instance, if you want to drop the absurd enforcement of sugar being an illegal substance, you can.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Also, is this comics-megacity, Stallone-megacity or Urban-megacity?

In any case, if we only have the existing resources I dont see what we can do any better. As he points out in the most recent film, "800 million people in one giant city." There can't be many more than a few hundred thousand Judges, if that, since apparently "half of all recruits don't survive their first day."

Really, aside from evacuating selected citizens to a new area and then leaving MegaCity One to burn itself to the ground I don't see what we can do.

[Mr Bean]

Really, aside from evacuating selected citizens to a new area and then leaving MegaCity One to burn itself to the ground I don't see what we can do.

Recruit, recruit, recruit. You need to break the culture of violence which means focusing resources one mega building at a time. Clear and focus on setting up one building at a time then one clear of crime you recruit from the residence to form a local defense force before moving onto the next. Also try making a few tact alliances with the better class of criminals, you want the black market being served by the ones who just run the normal stuff, not those running super drugs and slaves. You get enough weird stuff in Mega City One that having the equivalent of rum runners being able to operate only worrying about the other criminals will make things safer.

[Simon_Jester]

Also, is this comics-megacity, Stallone-megacity or Urban-megacity?

In any case, if we only have the existing resources I dont see what we can do any better. As he points out in the most recent film, "800 million people in one giant city." There can't be many more than a few hundred thousand Judges, if that, since apparently "half of all recruits don't survive their first day."

Really, aside from evacuating selected citizens to a new area and then leaving MegaCity One to burn itself to the ground I don't see what we can do.

I'm unfamiliar with the setting, but one question- could the Judges create and empower a law enforcement arm with less absolute powers than themselves? That would at least reduce the manpower problem.

Of course, since the Judges also have absolute power, they could probably start responding to crimes by, say, taking hostages in the neighborhoods from which the criminals originate. Really act like an occupying army.

[For all I know they already do that]

[Eternal_Freedom]

I would have suggested going all STAG from Saints Row the Third, but then I remembered how that ended with a sunken government aircraft carrier.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Time period?
The population is much less than 800 million BTW. The Apocalypse war cut it down to about 500 million, the Dark judges down another 60 million, and in the current period the Sovs "apocalypse bug" wiped it down to less than 150 million (I don't remember how many exactly).
All of these events included disproportionate judge deaths compared to the general reduction in population size.

Frankly, the only option that's even remotely feasible and relatively ethical (as opposed to eugenics and extensive drugs in the water supply as some in-universe judges advocated [Australia, "The Marshal"..] would be massive automatization (Judge-Meks), along with fully automated intrusive surveillance using robots.
(This would only help with those parts of the city that aren't a smoking wasteland, but still).

[Zixinus]

The real issue with the Judges, as far as I read, isn't just the leadership: it's the Judges' attitude and opinions itself.

They have essentially elected themselves as supreme governing body (with essentially almost all other things, like mayors, having little to no authority over them) and are convinced that they are absolutely necessary. This is due to the last president causing the third world war (or apocylpse war or whatever stupid thing it was named). The judges upsurped them.

So, there is a genuine risk that even if I try to make reforms that address the problem, the Judges themselves will think I've gone crazy and just get rid of me. If I'm lucky, I'll just be put into some kidn of forced retirement. Less so, I'll be sent out into the Wastelands or some other equally unpleasent place.

Despite that, here's what I'd try to do:

- Get lower-than-Judges law enforcement of some kind, something more akin to a traditional police. They can investigate and capture criminals, but not do much more. Have retired Judges act as literal judges for them, or at least be people that oversee them.

A good place to start is with robots (I don't know if this was a comic plotline) that would do this. They are incapable of breaking the law, although their priorities and logic would have to be carefully tested before launch. They would be far from replacing Judges, merely do of the more low-risk and monotomous work (such as street patrols). For start, they could be used to improve street security. They are equipped with less-lethal weapons only.

A next step would be making block-level (those big city-in-one buildings) police might be the next step. Again, they do not have the same authority as the Judges and the greatest problem will be oversight and preventing curroption.

- Try to find stuff that civilians can do as a job. Take it away from robots if you have to. Support ambitious projects if necessary. Extend educational facilities. Do anything nonnegative that significantly makes a dent in the unemployment rate.

This is a central issue. Many people go out to commit crimes and become criminals-for-life out of sheer boredom. People literary kill and start riots for a single job.

The comic, I think, made a strawmen-point about unemployment aid (the comic can shift from being a soapbox for whatever author is present to something even supporting the system) and how about 90%+ of the citizens are permanently unemployed from birth to death. If you take it at face value however, you just have to see that this is an indication of something being massively broken.

- Investigate the possibility of recovering the land, especially the death zone between the two megacities. If nothing else, it could become a worthwhile make-work for civilians.

- Allow the option for some criminals to become exiled from the city or go on a Death track (go to the colonizes) or something, instead of just tossed into the iso-cubes, forgotten about and hoped that they somehow become law-abiding citizens.

Work of rehabilitation techniques. Go out and trade knowledge with other megacities on this, or even other human colonies. Adapt ideas that work by themselves and what might work within Megacity, as long as they are not invasive-brainwashing or something similar.

The most important, is to give a reason why people should try rehabilitation.

- This might be odd and the most impossible, but have Judges go and become average citizens for a month (or even a week). Not undercover work, no real power over others (they might have a hotline to Judges and legal weapons), other Judges must refuse to recognize them during this period, obliged to hide their past and sent to a random area. One of the problems with Judges is that they are drowned within their own subculture. They made the Law into something that everyone must serve rather than the Law serving everyone.

Of course, since the Judges also have absolute power, they could probably start responding to crimes by, say, taking hostages in the neighborhoods from which the criminals originate. Really act like an occupying army.

No. I don't think they'd do that. The Judges usually take the Law quite seriously. When they brake it, it is with sort-of agreement from all the way from the top (like how they discredited a protest against them by using illegal-looking methods).

[Eternal_Freedom]

I was referring to the films. In the Stallone version Chief Justice Vargos remarks that Mega City One has "75 million people living in an area designed for less than twenty." In the most recent Karl Urban version, he clearly states that the city has "800 million people." This is why I asked whether we are dealing with comics or films and if films, which one.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Also, is this comics-megacity, Stallone-megacity or Urban-megacity?

In any case, if we only have the existing resources I dont see what we can do any better. As he points out in the most recent film, "800 million people in one giant city." There can't be many more than a few hundred thousand Judges, if that, since apparently "half of all recruits don't survive their first day."

Really, aside from evacuating selected citizens to a new area and then leaving MegaCity One to burn itself to the ground I don't see what we can do.

I'm unfamiliar with the setting, but one question- could the Judges create and empower a law enforcement arm with less absolute powers than themselves? That would at least reduce the manpower problem.

That depends on your definition of "law enforcement".
Civic militias exist for each 'Blok' and are (theoretically) a source of military manpower/strength and (theoretically) help keep the peace against armed or violent crime in their bloks. Unfortunately, they're quite terrible, and usually serve as little more than meat shields or sources of violence (especially in the cases of 'block wars').

(Civilian) lawyers and the like do apparently exist, and judge's do need a reason or pretext to arrest someone. (They can find a reason easily most of the time, but there are a variety of cases of high profile crime lords and the like who the judges know about, but lack any evidence against. (Ex: "The Pit", "Nero Narkos - head of the Friendz mob", etc'))


The manpower problem arises due to the extremely high standards all judges must meet. How many judges or lawyers or policemen do you know, who also have extensive military training (they serve as the core of the city's non mechanical military), extensive fire-arms and combat training, and are expected to follow an ethical code of sufficient strictness to make the average saint blanch?
(Oh, and add in the fact that said force is the initial target for every god, dark spirit, enemy state, giant mutant horde, invading alien species, invading army of evil judges from a parrallel universe, and everyday criminal who can purchase giant robot armies and the like - I.E the fatality rate is insane even without day to day losses)

[Simon_Jester]

I'm unfamiliar with the setting, but one question- could the Judges create and empower a law enforcement arm with less absolute powers than themselves? That would at least reduce the manpower problem.

That depends on your definition of "law enforcement".
Civic militias exist for each 'Blok' and are (theoretically) a source of military manpower/strength and (theoretically) help keep the peace against armed or violent crime in their bloks. Unfortunately, they're quite terrible, and usually serve as little more than meat shields or sources of violence (especially in the cases of 'block wars')...

The manpower problem arises due to the extremely high standards all judges must meet. How many judges or lawyers or policemen do you know, who also have extensive military training (they serve as the core of the city's non mechanical military), extensive fire-arms and combat training, and are expected to follow an ethical code of sufficient strictness to make the average saint blanch?
(Oh, and add in the fact that said force is the initial target for every god, dark spirit, enemy state, giant mutant horde, invading alien species, invading army of evil judges from a parrallel universe, and everyday criminal who can purchase giant robot armies and the like - I.E the fatality rate is insane even without day to day losses)[/quote]Clearly then, part of the problem is that the Judges need a second tier of law enforcement agents that can handle mundane crap. The militias are the right idea but are too disorganized, the Judges are very much the right idea but are too highly trained to be fully effective.

In other words, we need the Deputies- say, an organization trained and held to the same ethical standards as the Judges, but not to the same standards of combat training. "They also serve who only stand and wait," that sort of thing.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The real issue with the Judges, as far as I read, isn't just the leadership: it's the Judges' attitude and opinions itself.

They have essentially elected themselves as supreme governing body (with essentially almost all other things, like mayors, having little to no authority over them) and are convinced that they are absolutely necessary. This is due to the last president causing the third world war (or apocylpse war or whatever stupid thing it was named). The judges upsurped them.

Third world war actually. (The apocalypse was was something else).

So, there is a genuine risk that even if I try to make reforms that address the problem, the Judges themselves will think I've gone crazy and just get rid of me.

Not necessarily. It depends which changes and how.

A good place to start is with robots (I don't know if this was a comic plotline) that would do this. They are incapable of breaking the law, although their priorities and logic would have to be carefully tested before launch. They would be far from replacing Judges, merely do of the more low-risk and monotomous work (such as street patrols). For start, they could be used to improve street security. They are equipped with less-lethal weapons only.

In comics - it was tried. The robots are smart, and good for military use, but unfortunately there's an overly high rate of robot judges (Meks) going berserk, or enforcing the law with excess strictness, or not being very good at investigation (Judges are also 'detectives'). (But mainly, the problem is a too high % of them running amok, and keep in mind that even human judges are effectively walking arsenals).

A next step would be making block-level (those big city-in-one buildings) police might be the next step. Again, they do not have the same authority as the Judges and the greatest problem will be oversight and preventing curroption.

Those already exist (block level civil police and enforcement/guards). Unfortunately, they're either incompetent or tend towards corruption. (After all, if they were capable they wouldn't be rent-a-cops!).
It's mainly used as a source of a militia for war, and a theoretical low level law enforcement, but as said, it doesn't work well.

- Try to find stuff that civilians can do as a job. Take it away from robots if you have to. Support ambitious projects if necessary. Extend educational facilities. Do anything nonnegative that significantly makes a dent in the unemployment rate.

That's how the vast majority of jobs ARE made there. (Also, education is extensive and totally free, along with massive subsidies for every citizen).

The comic, I think, made a strawmen-point about unemployment aid (the comic can shift from being a soapbox for whatever author is present to something even supporting the system) and how about 90%+ of the citizens are permanently unemployed from birth to death. If you take it at face value however, you just have to see that this is an indication of something being massively broken.

Nope. Just massive automatization, and cheap, sentient robots. (Along with an extreme need for economy due to the insane environmental and energy dangers in the Earth of that time).

- Investigate the possibility of recovering the land, especially the death zone between the two megacities. If nothing else, it could become a worthwhile make-work for civilians.

Farms in the cursed earth do exist, and are used. (As long as you don't mind the radiation and roving armies of mutants).
Almost The entire earth outside of the mega cities is practically glowing with radiation. (Hell, the entire Atlantic ocean is one giant 'tar pit').

- Allow the option for some criminals to become exiled from the city or go on a Death track (go to the colonizes) or something, instead of just tossed into the iso-cubes, forgotten about and hoped that they somehow become law-abiding citizens.

Colonies already exist, on other planets as well. Would you really want to send "Sid Mc -the Faceslasher O Nelly" to an agrarian colony where there won't be any judges to stop them?

Work of rehabilitation techniques. Go out and trade knowledge with other megacities on this, or even other human colonies. Adapt ideas that work by themselves and what might work within Megacity, as long as they are not invasive-brainwashing or something similar.

Those exist. They don't use the invasive brainwashing ones.

- This might be odd and the most impossible, but have Judges go and become average citizens for a month (or even a week). Not undercover work, no real power over others (they might have a hotline to Judges and legal weapons), other Judges must refuse to recognize them during this period, obliged to hide their past and sent to a random area. One of the problems with Judges is that they are drowned within their own subculture. They made the Law into something that everyone must serve rather than the Law serving everyone.

This is intentionally avoided due to the monk like ascetic judges must meet. (The result of judges blending in is usually a judge retiring or going rogue, barring the undercover "Wally Squads")

Of course, since the Judges also have absolute power, they could probably start responding to crimes by, say, taking hostages in the neighborhoods from which the criminals originate. Really act like an occupying army.

No. I don't think they'd do that. The Judges usually take the Law quite seriously. When they brake it, it is with sort-of agreement from all the way from the top (like how they discredited a protest against them by using illegal-looking methods).

You mean one of the "democracy"movement? (Or the one from America?)

[The Grim Squeaker]

In other words, we need the Deputies- say, an organization trained and held to the same ethical standards as the Judges, but not to the same standards of combat training. "They also serve who only stand and wait," that sort of thing.

The judges really do need the combat training though.. (The fatality rate is so high even with it!)

[fgalkin]

Is this comics Megacity (pre or post Day of Chaos?), Stallone Megacity, or Urban Megacity?

Really, aside from evacuating selected citizens to a new area and then leaving MegaCity One to burn itself to the ground I don't see what we can do.

Recruit, recruit, recruit. You need to break the culture of violence which means focusing resources one mega building at a time. Clear and focus on setting up one building at a time then one clear of crime you recruit from the residence to form a local defense force before moving onto the next. Also try making a few tact alliances with the better class of criminals, you want the black market being served by the ones who just run the normal stuff, not those running super drugs and slaves. You get enough weird stuff in Mega City One that having the equivalent of rum runners being able to operate only worrying about the other criminals will make things safer.

All of this is already being done. It doesn't work very well.

The real issue with the Judges, as far as I read, isn't just the leadership: it's the Judges' attitude and opinions itself.

They have essentially elected themselves as supreme governing body (with essentially almost all other things, like mayors, having little to no authority over them) and are convinced that they are absolutely necessary. This is due to the last president causing the third world war (or apocylpse war or whatever stupid thing it was named). The judges upsurped them.

When they held a democratic referendum in a story sometime in the 90s, the people of the city overwhelmingly voted to keep the Justice system. Megacity's problems aren't the Judges, it's the 90% unemployment rate and no possibility of change. There is a whole generation of people paid a stipend simply for breathing, with no hope or opportunities, nor a work ethic. Until that changes, Megacity will remain a shithole. No one wants to handle that, so the people voted for the Judges (plus, most people have sunk too deep into mindless entertainment and consumerism to care)

So, there is a genuine risk that even if I try to make reforms that address the problem, the Judges themselves will think I've gone crazy and just get rid of me. If I'm lucky, I'll just be put into some kidn of forced retirement. Less so, I'll be sent out into the Wastelands or some other equally unpleasent place.

IIRC, retirement IS being sent out into the Wastelands. There are no retired Judges. It's an anti-corruption measure.

Despite that, here's what I'd try to do:

- Get lower-than-Judges law enforcement of some kind, something more akin to a traditional police. They can investigate and capture criminals, but not do much more. Have retired Judges act as literal judges for them, or at least be people that oversee them.

There are already self-defence forces for every block, as heavily armed as any modern army, complete with tanks and such. More often than not, they cause more problems that they solve.

A good place to start is with robots (I don't know if this was a comic plotline) that would do this. They are incapable of breaking the law, although their priorities and logic would have to be carefully tested before launch. They would be far from replacing Judges, merely do of the more low-risk and monotomous work (such as street patrols). For start, they could be used to improve street security. They are equipped with less-lethal weapons only.

There was a storyline about this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanismo Simply put, they couldn't get the robots' programming to work correctly. There is now significant opposition to any new attempts to introduce robots due the the first attempt ending in a disaster.

A next step would be making block-level (those big city-in-one buildings) police might be the next step. Again, they do not have the same authority as the Judges and the greatest problem will be oversight and preventing curroption.

Again, each block has its own self-defense force. Since the blocks all hate each other, they are inevitably end up being used for full-fledged block wars, or in pogroms against mutants and are a major source of weaponry for the gangs. Again, 90% unemployment, everyone on the dole, etc.

- Try to find stuff that civilians can do as a job. Take it away from robots if you have to. Support ambitious projects if necessary. Extend educational facilities. Do anything nonnegative that significantly makes a dent in the unemployment rate.

That would require a complete overhaul of the economy. This may be possible after Day of Chaos, as the population is much smaller (possibly small enough to be actually manageable!), and there is a lot of rebuilding to do,

This is a central issue. Many people go out to commit crimes and become criminals-for-life out of sheer boredom. People literary kill and start riots for a single job.

Yes, but again, why would someone want to work when they get paid simply for breathing?

The comic, I think, made a strawmen-point about unemployment aid (the comic can shift from being a soapbox for whatever author is present to something even supporting the system) and how about 90%+ of the citizens are permanently unemployed from birth to death. If you take it at face value however, you just have to see that this is an indication of something being massively broken.

- Investigate the possibility of recovering the land, especially the death zone between the two megacities. If nothing else, it could become a worthwhile make-work for civilians. [/quote]
This is already being done, IIRC. Thing is, building in a radioactive wasteland ins't easy, by virtue of it making Chernobyl look clean.

- Allow the option for some criminals to become exiled from the city or go on a Death track (go to the colonizes) or something, instead of just tossed into the iso-cubes, forgotten about and hoped that they somehow become law-abiding citizens.

They aren't forgotten, they have access to educational facilities and such. But yes, iso-cubes are a net drain on the system, and convicts' time is better spent on something more productive

Work of rehabilitation techniques. Go out and trade knowledge with other megacities on this, or even other human colonies. Adapt ideas that work by themselves and what might work within Megacity, as long as they are not invasive-brainwashing or something similar.

There are rehabilitation techniques in use. By nature of the comic, the stories forcus on hardened criminals and recidivists, but it is implied that the many citizens do try to stay out of trouble

The most important, is to give a reason why people should try rehabilitation.

- This might be odd and the most impossible, but have Judges go and become average citizens for a month (or even a week). Not undercover work, no real power over others (they might have a hotline to Judges and legal weapons), other Judges must refuse to recognize them during this period, obliged to hide their past and sent to a random area. One of the problems with Judges is that they are drowned within their own subculture. They made the Law into something that everyone must serve rather than the Law serving everyone.

Impossible, as Judges are literally trained and systematically brainwashed since they are children to the point that they cannot function as normal citizens. Moreover, such an activity is incredibly risky due to the astronomical crime rates and the possibility of gangs targeting these "vacationing" Judges. However, the basic premise is sound, as currently Judges have zero understanding of the mindset of the average cit.

Of course, since the Judges also have absolute power, they could probably start responding to crimes by, say, taking hostages in the neighborhoods from which the criminals originate. Really act like an occupying army.

No. I don't think they'd do that. The Judges usually take the Law quite seriously. When they brake it, it is with sort-of agreement from all the way from the top (like how they discredited a protest against them by using illegal-looking methods).

The Judges are basically brainwashed into believing in the Law. With some exceptions, they are not corrupt, and genuinely believe in what they are doing. They are not your typical power-mad occupying force.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Simon_Jester]

In other words, we need the Deputies- say, an organization trained and held to the same ethical standards as the Judges, but not to the same standards of combat training. "They also serve who only stand and wait," that sort of thing.

The judges really do need the combat training though.. (The fatality rate is so high even with it!)

The point is that there have to be jobs involved in policing Mega City One that are not simple cases of "be an elite badass commando." Someone other than the Judges should be doing these jobs. They need specialization- there's a reason that in the real world, soldiers and police are separate functions. They need badass highly trained soldiers who are not law enforcement, to act as backup when the Judges need a lot of manpower to do something dangerous. They also need trustworthy people who are not soldiers, to maintain and guard the prisons and organize routine activities.

Despite that, here's what I'd try to do:

- Get lower-than-Judges law enforcement of some kind, something more akin to a traditional police. They can investigate and capture criminals, but not do much more. Have retired Judges act as literal judges for them, or at least be people that oversee them.

There are already self-defence forces for every block, as heavily armed as any modern army, complete with tanks and such. More often than not, they cause more problems that they solve.

Right. The problem is that they need to split the "army" and "police" functions, have the "army" operate only when there is a clear military threat which must be countered with massive bombardment of tanks and heavy guns, and have the "police" operate at all other times. The Judges act to govern, control, and direct both forces, rather than having to take on all policing duties themselves and be the military first responders.

They aren't forgotten, they have access to educational facilities and such. But yes, iso-cubes are a net drain on the system, and convicts' time is better spent on something more productive

Or, given how draconian the Judges already are, anyone who must be chucked in an iso-cube for long should probably just be shot, not so much for the deterrent effect as to simply be rid of them. The Judges are so undermanned and short of resources, and are already so prepared to kill in the enforcement of the law, that it's almost pointless for them to use long prison sentences for anything.

They might even be better served by a medieval standard of justice; everything punishable by fines or public humiliation at the low end, followed by a rapid transition up to scarring, mutilation and death for any crime deemed "serious." Not because this is more civilized or superior or even more effective than a First World system of judicial punishment. But because if you're already practically in a state of war with your own criminal element, and are that thinly spread among the population...

If you seriously want to exercise actual control, you don't have much of a choice.

My impression is that the reason medieval 'justice' systems were so brutal was because they didn't have much of an option. The resources to keep people in prison for long just didn't exist, and any given ruler had very few reliable men to act as policemen on his behalf. Rule by fear of the king's law was pretty much the only option that even vaguely worked given the constraints on the system.

Of course, since the Judges also have absolute power, they could probably start responding to crimes by, say, taking hostages in the neighborhoods from which the criminals originate. Really act like an occupying army.

No. I don't think they'd do that. The Judges usually take the Law quite seriously. When they brake it, it is with sort-of agreement from all the way from the top (like how they discredited a protest against them by using illegal-looking methods).

The Judges are basically brainwashed into believing in the Law. With some exceptions, they are not corrupt, and genuinely believe in what they are doing. They are not your typical power-mad occupying force.

They are not corrupt, they believe in what they are doing, clearly. My point is simply that improving the situation requires one of the following responses:

1) They need more manpower, a lot more manpower, so they need to find a way to recruit people they aren't training from infancy to take the load off the people who are. They also need means to keep people busy in ways that keep crime down. Paying people to act as glorified social workers might work, likewise paying people their welfare only if they engage in certain classes of approved recreational activities that serve the social functions of a job by giving people something to do during designated hours that they find fulfilling.

2) They need brutality, a lot more brutality, to enforce control in areas that have essentially forgotten the meaning of the Law and have descended into anarchy. It is sadly impossible to turn anarchy back into order without a degree of brutality.

[fgalkin]

Simon, the system you describe already exists. There is a separate military that has the heavy weaponry, a Space Navy complete with power-armored Space Marines and none of them are involved in law enforcement. These are supplemented by block militias in emergencies, which are normally supposed to keep the peace inside their blocks by keeping the muggers and thieves out. As stated above, they are just as likely to invade another block, and that is not counting the various methods of mind control that exist in-universe. Which is why they are not reliable, and in many cases, the Judges' training is necessary.

As for medieval punishments, you seem to be misunderstanding what the Judge mentality is like. The law is in many cases harsh and unjust (owning real sugar gets you cube time, so does jaywalking and running on the sidewalk), but its purpose is to create an orderly society. Think Singapore's chewing gum ban taken to the extreme. The prisoners are not "rotting" in iso-cubes, they have a better standard of care than the modern US prison system, because at it's core, the Law was meant to be a reasonable and good thing that benefits the people. That is why there is an appeals system that exist and functions, if not very well, there are possibilities for early parole, education in prison, each inmate is visited by a trained psychologist who tries to understand what makes them a criminal and figure out a way to reform, etc.

The Judges thus believe that they are a force for good. For them to switch to a more medieval system of punishment would be a massive violation of their own principles, and an undisputedly evil act. It's like suggesting "oh, America has a crime problem in the inner cities, they should put everyone inside in concentration camps to keep them pacified." It's a massive violation of human rights, and the Judges will not stand for it, no matter how many of them die in the line of duty.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

More on Megacity One's military forces:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Corps_(comics)



There is also an infantry component, as seen in Day of Chaos (where Dredd is supported by them, but while retaining overall command, all operational decisions are made by the military officer on the ground)



They are not authorized to act against the civilian population of Megacity One, so have no law enforcement functions except in dire emergencies when martial law is declared and their mandate is expanded. Normally, they protect Earth and the colonies against the many alien empires that exist in the setting, and also stand ready in case the Soviets try to nuke the city again or something like that.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Also, they view the Judges as a bunch of lily-livered wusses who don't have the guts to do What's Necessary, so them staying out of law enforcement is a very good thing indeed (when their mandate is temporarily expanded after Day of Chaos, their first action is to carpet bomb a dissident block disobeying orders)

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Simon_Jester]

Simon, the system you describe already exists. There is a separate military that has the heavy weaponry, a Space Navy complete with power-armored Space Marines and none of them are involved in law enforcement. These are supplemented by block militias in emergencies, which are normally supposed to keep the peace inside their blocks by keeping the muggers and thieves out. As stated above, they are just as likely to invade another block, and that is not counting the various methods of mind control that exist in-universe. Which is why they are not reliable, and in many cases, the Judges' training is necessary.

Honestly, the block militias sound more like part of the problem than like the solution- some kind of reform of their organization is in order.

As to the rest of the military, you're right, I'm wrong, I'm operating on a limited understanding.

As for medieval punishments, you seem to be misunderstanding what the Judge mentality is like. The law is in many cases harsh and unjust (owning real sugar gets you cube time, so does jaywalking and running on the sidewalk), but its purpose is to create an orderly society. Think Singapore's chewing gum ban taken to the extreme. The prisoners are not "rotting" in iso-cubes, they have a better standard of care than the modern US prison system, because at it's core, the Law was meant to be a reasonable and good thing that benefits the people. That is why there is an appeals system that exist and functions, if not very well, there are possibilities for early parole, education in prison, each inmate is visited by a trained psychologist who tries to understand what makes them a criminal and figure out a way to reform, etc.

The Judges thus believe that they are a force for good. For them to switch to a more medieval system of punishment would be a massive violation of their own principles, and an undisputedly evil act. It's like suggesting "oh, America has a crime problem in the inner cities, they should put everyone inside in concentration camps to keep them pacified." It's a massive violation of human rights, and the Judges will not stand for it, no matter how many of them die in the line of duty.

Hm. I guess I was visualizing the situation as one where the Judges are ultra-motivated and determined (that part I think I got right). But basic civil order is breaking down as a matter of routine, people are killing each other regularly and the situation in much of Mega City One is one of utter anarchy.

In which case they do need to change something- they need either social reforms to reduce the scope of their problem, more manpower to solve the problem with, or a different mandate so they can solve it in a different way.

If their existing judicial system is more or less functional, then it doesn't need to be fixed in the first place... but in that case, what is it that we'd be "cleaning up?"

If their existing system is simply failing to provide actual law enforcement to much of the populace, they have to change at least one variable in the equation. And the only things I can think of are more manpower, drastic social reorganization, or a high degree of brutality. Any or all of these might not be acceptable to the judges, but if the goal is to fix things at least one of these ideas has to be tried, if nothing else.

[fgalkin]

The amount of control they have varies- the stories take place in realtime, so one year IRL = 1 year in the universe. As thus, we're talking about 30 years worth of stories. Usually, the city is largely functional, albeit with an astronomical crime rate, but they are hit with different crises that jeopardize the survival of the City repeatedly, which means that as soon as things begin looking up, something else happens, and usually the Judges are the first to die in disproportionate numbers while trying to save the city, followed by millions of civilians, disrupting the existing social order. Then, things to to shit and the city breaks out in near-anarchy, followed by a massive crackdown as the Judges go block by block, searching every apartment and arresting people for the smallest infraction. Then, as things get back under control, the shit hits the fan again, and the cycle continues.

Thus , the Judges' main problem is manpower- their training standards are ludicrously high, and so are their losses (the plot of Urban's Dredd movie? That's the level of danger they are expected to face EVERY DAY and in no way exceptional), exacerbated by the fact that unlike most real police forces, the Blue Line doesn't exist and Judges are held to a higher standard, which leads to really weird thing like torture being legal and used fairly often (in combination with truth-drugs and lie detectors), but a Judge hitting a handcuffed suspect would lose his badge and probably do 20 years of hard labor in GenPop. They are also subjected to things like the Random Physical Abuse Test when their equivalent of Internal Affairs would kidnap and torture a random Judge just to see if they're hiding anything.

Their one advantage, besides their ludicrous training, is their near-omnipresent surveillance network which, when coupled with facial recognition software, can usually track the whereabouts of every citizen, so they usually have little problem in recreating a suspect's or a victim's last few days for investigations. The problem is, even that is not enough.

Sometimes, precinct commanders try to address the lack of manpower by working with certain gangs, or funding certain elements that carry out extrajudicial punishments. When discovered, those are usually dealt with extremely harshly.

Relaxing recruitment standards and having more judges would be a solution if the only thing they've had to face was the crime rate, but as the comics show, even the highly trained Judges die like redshirts against whatever menace threatens the city, thus justifying Dredd's involvement to save the day. And thing like the block militias which were kinda what you wanted ended up hurting the city in the end, due to the Judges not even having complete oversight over their own, much less millions of armed civilians, so there is no real safeguard against corruption and abuse of power. This will be true of any auxiliary police force.

Overall, asking how to fix Megacity One is kinda like asking how to fix the Imperium of Man. I'm not sure that such a thing is even possible. They're just set up to be grimdark with no light at the end of the tunnel, and things only getting worse. There's a reason why a lot of writers who write for Black Library also write for 2000AD (Dan Abnett, Gordon Rennie, James Swallow, etc)

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

To expand on what Megacity one is like, you have to remember its inspiration- the Dirty Harry movies. So, on the best of days, it is like your stereotypical 70s and 80s NYC, or Detroit from Robocop- a city badly plagued with crime, but one with a functioning police and justice system, just insufficient to deal with the crime wave. It is not like the favelas of Brazil or Mogadishu, where law and order have completely broken down and gangs and warlords have supplanted the justice system, except in the worst of times when the Justice department is understrength and cannot patrol effectively.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Enigma]

Distract their dreary existence with huge stadiums filled non stop gladiatorial type combat. Or something like it.

Develop tech so that Judge recruits get the necessary education downloaded into their minds and an accelerated physical training program to reduce the number of years to train a Judge. Instead of training them from childhood, train them from late teens. Something like it.

This may seem drastic but lock down each Block and do a thorough cleansing of any criminals. Then consolidate the Blocks and tear down the empty ones.

Also, rescind any stupid laws like no running on the sidewalks or real sugar being illegal.

Find ways to either remove the radiation from around the Megacity or at least reduce it so it is less of a threat to those living by the walls.

Or just say "Screw it!" and select a few thousand citizens with the necessary skills, take along the Judges, put them in a Block and lock it down. Then get the Space Navy to level Mega City One until only that Block and the walls survive. Then start over.

[fgalkin]

Distract their dreary existence with huge stadiums filled non stop gladiatorial type combat. Or something like it.

That pretty much already happens, complete with gun battles in the stands between fans of different teams

Develop tech so that Judge recruits get the necessary education downloaded into their minds and an accelerated physical training program to reduce the number of years to train a Judge. Instead of training them from childhood, train them from late teens. Something like it.

That might work, were such a thing possible

This may seem drastic but lock down each Block and do a thorough cleansing of any criminals. Then consolidate the Blocks and tear down the empty ones.

This happens all the time, pretty much after every disaster that strikes the city, although generally only a relatively small part of the city is cleared that way at any given time

Also, rescind any stupid laws like no running on the sidewalks or real sugar being illegal.

No argument there

Find ways to either remove the radiation from around the Megacity or at least reduce it so it is less of a threat to those living by the walls.

It's being worked on, but so far, no success.

Or just say "Screw it!" and select a few thousand citizens with the necessary skills, take along the Judges, put them in a Block and lock it down. Then get the Space Navy to level Mega City One until only that Block and the walls survive. Then start over.

That was the plot of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifecta_( ... edd_story) , with a faction of the Justice department trying just that (except with a flying city built on the Moon in secret). It didn't work because no matter how bad things get, the Judges refused to abandon the city and its people.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

This may seem drastic but lock down each Block and do a thorough cleansing of any criminals. Then consolidate the Blocks and tear down the empty ones.

This happens all the time, pretty much after every disaster that strikes the city, although generally only a relatively small part of the city is cleared that way at any given time

Which is what I was pushing, you say the local non-judge cops are useless? Make them part of the cleansing. If there is 200,000 people per block or whatever it is, throw enough judges at the issue so it's 1 judge per 20 residents. Block to block, clear out each one, if the new rent a cops start making trouble with another block, Judge the shit out of them.